News:

New Wiki available at http://wiki.gstwins.com -Check it out or contribute today!

Main Menu

Ask a RiderCoach!

Started by Watcher, March 19, 2017, 09:36:20 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

rscottlow

What about downhill cornering? I ride one road full of twisties on the way to work where it's mostly uphill, and I feel like I can breeze through it with no problem. On the way home, where I'm riding primarily downhill, I always find myself braking much harder on my approach in order to feel comfortable enough with my speed to roll on the throttle through the corner. I try to stay down a gear in order to fight the forces of gravity, but there are a couple of negative camber turns mixed in where I really have to brake hard before I turn in to scrub off some speed. Even then, I find it hard to roll onto the throttle since gravity is already causing me to accelerate.
Scott - Cincinnati, Ohio
2009 GS500F

Watcher

The biggest danger (for me) when turning downhill is you naturally want to lean on the handlebars.  Putting weight on the bars doesn't allow the front wheel to "find" it's natural path, and you have to put more effort into steering control.  So you really gotta work that core and your legs to hold yourself up.

You will be braking more downhill, as you said the force of gravity wants to accelerate you more, and through the turn the same principles apply where you want to roll on that throttle smoothly and steadily through the turn.  You just have to do it less since gravity is also speeding you up.
Engine braking will save you from having to brake as hard, and in cases where maybe you're going down a mountain it'll keep the heat off your brakes which is a good thing.

As far as being jerky on the throttle coming back on, it's just something you'll have to learn as you experience it.  I would not be using the friction zone to help smooth the process out, as disengaging the clutch will cause gravity to accelerate you even more and compound the problem.

Maybe you are hesitating too long before rolling back on.  I trail brake a lot naturally, so I'm coming off the brakes AFTER I've already started the turn and I'm immediately rolling that throttle back on.  If you are braking for a good entry speed, releasing the brake, and giving gravity time (even a second) to speed you up a little before entering the turn then it could be causing you to misjudge how much throttle you need to add back on.  As soon as you're done braking for the turn get on that throttle and keep it smooth.
"The point of a journey is not to arrive..."

-Neil Peart

mr72

I also get iffy turning downhill and I think the reason why is a combination of three things:

1. braking ... you are using some of the tire's adhesion (static friction) that you ordinarily want for cornering with braking
2. head angle ... you are steepening the head angle, see where we had this debate before in this very same thread. this affects steering stability and feel
3. weight bias ... you are shifting most if not all of the weight of the bike onto the front tire. you lose traction in the rear so directional stability really suffers and you feel like there's a big loss of grip

In all I would say the reality is you are really compromised turning going downhill for purely physics reasons not to mention the feeling you have doing it. Normally you "roll on" the throttle to shift some weight to the rear in a corner and you simply can't shift weight to the rear when going down hill, even worse you are probably braking and not accelerating so it's compounded.

IMHO. But I'm no ridercoach. I just ride and understand physics of vehicles.

I don't like cornering downhill. My commute to work, when I take it, involves a corner at the bottom of a big hill. I hate it, even though I have a ton of experience cornering downhill on a 2-wheel vehicle (bicycle). The motorcycle just feels a lot worse cornering downhill.

Watcher

#63
Quote from: mr72 on April 11, 2017, 01:20:28 PM
I also get iffy turning downhill and I think the reason why is a combination of three things:

1. braking ... you are using some of the tire's adhesion (static friction) that you ordinarily want for cornering with braking
2. head angle ... you are steepening the head angle, see where we had this debate before in this very same thread. this affects steering stability and feel
3. weight bias ... you are shifting most if not all of the weight of the bike onto the front tire. you lose traction in the rear so directional stability really suffers and you feel like there's a big loss of grip

1.  While this is true, braking and thus loading the front tire can actually increase the amount traction you have to use.  That's the principle behind trail-braking.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvWmN85HLv0

2.  But if you are going down an incline, while the steering head angle is steeper in relation to a level surface it's still the same as it always is in relation to the current road surface.  The only difference is the suspension may compress more when braking downhill and cause a very slight increase to the overall effect braking has on changing the steering geometry.
Or did I miss something again  :dunno_white:

3.  Yes, I'll agree with that.  Weight is already on the front, so it will be easier to overload the front wheel.  There is an increased risk, then, of overbraking before the turn or weighting up the bars while in the turn which will make the motorcycle feel less responsive and reduce your overall confidence.
"The point of a journey is not to arrive..."

-Neil Peart

rscottlow

Quote from: Watcher on April 11, 2017, 12:53:19 PM
Maybe you are hesitating too long before rolling back on.  I trail brake a lot naturally, so I'm coming off the brakes AFTER I've already started the turn and I'm immediately rolling that throttle back on.  If you are braking for a good entry speed, releasing the brake, and giving gravity time (even a second) to speed you up a little before entering the turn then it could be causing you to misjudge how much throttle you need to add back on.  As soon as you're done braking for the turn get on that throttle and keep it smooth.

I think you're right about this. There are a couple of particularly tricky corners that are steeper and tighter than the rest. On those in particular, I know I start braking early in order to ensure that I can reach an appropriate entry speed, but there's definitely a delay between the time that I release the brake and the time I roll on the throttle. I'll work on tightening that interval and see what happens.
Scott - Cincinnati, Ohio
2009 GS500F

Suzi Q

Strictly MSF focused thread or WERA/N2/Etc?
Deals on Amsoil if you want it. PM me for details.

Watcher

#66
Quote from: Suzi Q on April 13, 2017, 07:26:34 PM
Strictly MSF focused thread or WERA/N2/Etc?

I only have working knowledge of MSF but as an "educated" rider I'll gladly talk about other curriculums and techniques if you have a topic worth discussing.
"The point of a journey is not to arrive..."

-Neil Peart

qcbaker

RE: downhill cornering

http://www.ridinginthezone.com/how-to-survive-downhill-curves/

Scott, that blog you posted in my thread has a post that has some tips on managing downhill corners. I'd be interested to hear Watcher's perspective on what they have to say as well.

rscottlow

Quote from: qcbaker on April 17, 2017, 10:18:04 AM
RE: downhill cornering

http://www.ridinginthezone.com/how-to-survive-downhill-curves/

Scott, that blog you posted in my thread has a post that has some tips on managing downhill corners. I'd be interested to hear Watcher's perspective on what they have to say as well.

Haha, this is actually how I found RITZ in the first place. I was doing a google search to supplement Watcher's thoughts on the matter, and came across that site. Good looking out!  :cheers:
Scott - Cincinnati, Ohio
2009 GS500F

Watcher

Quote from: rscottlow on April 17, 2017, 10:28:58 AM
Quote from: qcbaker on April 17, 2017, 10:18:04 AM
RE: downhill cornering

http://www.ridinginthezone.com/how-to-survive-downhill-curves/

Scott, that blog you posted in my thread has a post that has some tips on managing downhill corners. I'd be interested to hear Watcher's perspective on what they have to say as well.

Haha, this is actually how I found RITZ in the first place. I was doing a google search to supplement Watcher's thoughts on the matter, and came across that site. Good looking out!  :cheers:


:thumb:


Great article.  It mentions a lot of the same things I did, perhaps in more detail, to include slowing down more and being sure to get back on that throttle regardless of acceleration via gravity.  The throttle serves to stabilize the motorcycle, you can't omit it and expect to feel confident in the turn.
They even mention trail braking, which is an advanced technique but has many benefits.


In MSF we teach "Slow, look, press, roll" (basically identical to what they say) as our cornering mantra, which later evolves into "search, setup, smooth".
The idea is the same: pick a good entry speed based on what you can see and your judgement thereafter, pick a line (outside inside outside, middle middle middle, outside outside inside, etc), press (countersteer) to initiate the lean and the turn, stabilize the bike with some throttle.

The "perfect" apex (outside inside outside) might be the bread and butter but it's honestly safest IMHO to ride a purely middle path and follow the curve.  It gives you some space cushion to go wide if the turn unexpectedly tightens up, or to go tighter in case of a hazard.
I don't usually recommend early apex as it's a good way to make a decreasing radius turn a double-apex turn, and a delayed apex is often the fastest way to ride a curve but the hardest to judge as if you come in a little to hot or too wide you really have to press that bike down hard to make the turn.

The rest comes from comfort level.


I'm off work tomorrow, I might go up the mountain and make a video on this.  If I do I'll upload it to the training videos thread.
"The point of a journey is not to arrive..."

-Neil Peart

qcbaker

I thought of another question to ask you Watcher, as it's something I actively am trying to improve whenever I ride. Regarding downshifting when slowing up for a curve or something, do you (and I guess by proxy the MSF) advocate throttle blipping to rev match or easing off the clutch to let the engine "catch up" to wheel speed?

Personally, I LOVE how smooth a perfectly rev matched downshift feels and sounds, but I can see how getting the blip wrong and causing the engine to surge or abruptly engine brake a little bit could be problematic.

rscottlow

It may or may not be the "correct" way of doing it, but I always blip the throttle to match revs.
Scott - Cincinnati, Ohio
2009 GS500F

Watcher

As far as I know MSF doesn't advocate any particular method of downshifting.
Every instance of downshifting in the class is coming to a stop so there's that...


That being said, a clutch only downshift when slowing causes heavy engine braking as the clutch is released, and I've had the rear wheel slip when doing this as well, so a little throttle blip in there to bring the engine up helps immensely with being smooth.

It can be hard to do, but if you can figure out how to throttle blip while braking you can rev match your downshifts while setting up for a turn.
Just keep thinking "clutch in, roll on, downshift, roll off, clutch out".
"The point of a journey is not to arrive..."

-Neil Peart

Suzi Q

I've got a question for ya' ahead of this week's BRC.

Is it customary to tip the instructors? If so, what is appropriate per person?

Thanks
Deals on Amsoil if you want it. PM me for details.

Watcher

#74
Customary?  No.  I've never been, I never have.

I can't speak for every coach that teaches, but for me, my colleagues, and the people I trained with it is less about the money and more about honest mentorship.
We're out there to make riders safe.  I do get a paycheck but it's not a livable wage.  At best it's just some extra cash for me to buy motorcycle stuff.

That being said, most of the business we get is from word of mouth, so the best "thank you" any student can give me is a recommendation to others.
"The point of a journey is not to arrive..."

-Neil Peart

Suzi Q

Deals on Amsoil if you want it. PM me for details.

qcbaker

Bit of necromancy here but I had a "riding technique" question that I wanted to ask Watcher, since he's a RiderCoach, but also I want to see what others do:

When you pull up to a stop light, do you simply hold in the clutch while in first gear while waiting or do you shift into neutral and let go of the clutch until the light changes, then shift into first?

Personally, if I know the light is not long, I'll just hold the clutch in. But if it's a long light, I'll usually put it in neutral.

cbrfxr67

I do the same as you qc. 

How about this watcher, what do (would) you do when a guy dumps a bike?  When I took the msf, there was a guy just learning, no confidence and struggling with the clutch.  He finally dumped a 250 and walked off the course.  I felt really bad for him but the teacher kind of shrugged and we went back to drills,....
"Its something you take apart in 2-3 days and takes 10 years to go back together."
-buddha

Watcher

#78
Hey, I forgot about this topic as well!  I remember it got a little heated before, and it looks like I never did supply a link to my little test of the UK style braking vs the US style braking.  I still have the video if anyone is interested in seeing it.

Quote from: qcbaker on February 23, 2018, 07:35:04 AM
When you pull up to a stop light, do you simply hold in the clutch while in first gear while waiting or do you shift into neutral and let go of the clutch until the light changes, then shift into first?

Depends on the light, depends on the situation.  If I'm in N at a red then 2 conditions have to be met:
I trust that the light is going to be long and I have time to give myself a break or adjust something with my gear/load.
I am satisfied that nothing behind me is threatening.  Could be vehicles are already stopped, there are no vehicles, or an approaching vehicle is slowed sufficiently that I trust they are aware of me.

Quote from: cbrfxr67 on February 23, 2018, 11:26:50 AM
How about this watcher, what do (would) you do when a guy dumps a bike?  When I took the msf, there was a guy just learning, no confidence and struggling with the clutch.  He finally dumped a 250 and walked off the course.  I felt really bad for him but the teacher kind of shrugged and we went back to drills,....

That's a tough one to answer, it's highly subjective to the person and the severity of the crash, and the level of instruction they have been receiving.

For the vast majority this is how it goes down.  Rider makes a simple mistake, the bike drops, they hit the ground.  One of the coaches runs over.  First concern is their safety, of course, and if they're ok and want to continue I'll lift the bike, sometimes taking the opportunity to show how to properly lift a bike, and give it a quick once over.  Anything small that has broken off I pocket, and if the bike otherwise is fine to ride I sit the student back on it.  If it's inoperable, we walk it back to the staging area and get them on a new bike.
We're big on self-assessment and reflection, so at this point we ask "What went wrong?"  Often times the student will tell us "Oh, I spooked myself and grabbed way too much front brake" or "I didn't have my bars straight when I stopped" or "I target fixated" or whatever.  In which case I'm like "Cool, now you know what NOT to do!"  Usually followed by a "Was that so bad?" or something like that.  "Look on the bright side, the hard part is over.  Literally, you hit the hart part and nothing bad happened!  The rest is cake!"  Something to get them in a better mood and eager to ride and not think about the fact they were sitting in the dirt 10 seconds ago.

At the conclusion of the exercise we have everyone in the class give that person a big round of applause for getting back on the horse, and I make a big deal about giving them the little broken end of the brake lever or whatever as a souvenir of their first crash.  A little more encouragement from us to lift their spirits.  I usually have them say what it was they did for the other students to hear it from a peer rather than a coach, and everything is A-OK from then on.



It's really rare but I've had people walk off the range in anger/frustration, and we just let them go.  Nothing says they're obligated to stay for the whole class no matter what, nor would I attempt to keep them against their will.  Usually this person is someone who is struggling right away and is getting extra attention from us to make sure they understand everything we need them to, but something isn't "clicking" and no matter how we phrase, demonstrate, or conceptualize the skill either they refuse to understand or just cannot understand.  You can only tell someone "SMOOOOOOOOOOOOTHLY release the clutch!" so many times in so many ways before you need a drill and a mallet to get them to understand.  XD
If they decide for themselves that riding isn't for them before we end up telling them riding isn't for them, then "goodbye".  It gives me more time to focus my efforts on other students who ARE serious about learning and are willing to be there.  By the way, rarely do we drop someone in the first few exercises.  We understand that they're new, and the curriculum is set up to gradually teach at the start and increase the pace as skills develop.  EVERY time I've had a student walk off it's been in ex.2, which is basic basic clutch control, and it's a skill they would have had more time in ex.3 to work on.  No remorse from me if they choose to walk off in a huff.

I've had people who were injured and either cannot or choose not to continue as a result.  We invite them back at a later date when they've rested and healed.  Usually we also work out some kind of deal financially, where they aren't having to pay for an entire second class.  It's usually not free (they DID drop our bike!) but it's encouraging.

I've also had people who have no business getting back on the bike but eagerly jump back on and I have to put my foot down and say something like "Right now you don't have sufficient control, and you're a clear danger to yourself and may be a danger to my other riders.  At this point in time we're going to have to cut you loose."  We might express to them that if they had more practice with X, Y, or Z that they would be ok, and that we'd be glad to have them back at a later date to revisit earlier exercises, and to contact our administrator to work out a date and a price.  Often we will see riders that are very understanding of this, and do come back out.  Sometimes we get people who are very belligerent and say we are terrible instructors and storm off in a fit.

I've also had people who will straight up tell me "I don't think this is for me," and choose not to continue.  No injuries, nothing broken on the bike, but they're telling themselves the risk is not worth the reward.  I'll usually try to dissuade this, especially if it was minor mistake and they've been doing fairly well up until that point, but once again I'm not going to force anyone to stay.  We'll offer them a break to reflect and see what they want to do, and it's a 50/50 chance if they choose to remain or leave.  If they remain we'll typically see them stick it out to the end, newfound determination and all that.
"The point of a journey is not to arrive..."

-Neil Peart

qcbaker

Is there not a risk of wearing out the throw out bearing, or is that not as applicable to motorcycles?

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk