Author Topic: Ask a RiderCoach!  (Read 210 times)

Offline Watcher

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Ask a RiderCoach!
« on: March 20, 2017, 12:36:20 AM »
Inspired by qcbaker's "Rider Education Videos" thread, I thought that maybe I could personally be a valuable resource to new or even experienced riders based on my history as a rider and my certification through the Motorcycle Safety Foundation.

"Why not just google?"  You can wade through the answers, but you may find contradictory information or not be able to translate it into layman's terms.  Or maybe your question is more broad in nature to where the best way to answer it is in conversation, not in pages of text (yes, I realize this is a page of text).

"What kinds of questions?"  Anything related to two wheeled motorized vehicles.  Motorcycle operation, street scenarios, "what would you do" stuff, what kinds of gear I recommend and why, my opinions on controversial laws and topics, really anything you want to know regarding the use and operation of a motorcycle on public roads (and some track stuff), with the exception of local laws and regulations (I don't live where you live...  probably...  so go on your local city/state/province/country's police website...).
How does counter-steering work, should you be hanging off, what is trail-braking and should you use it, is a SNELL helmet really better than the other options?  Stuff like that.
Hell, maybe you just want to know what it's like to teach people to ride.  And I'll tell you.  Just don't ask me "What's it like to teach people to ride?" because I don't feel like writing a memoir...

The answers I give you will be my opinions mixed with some technical details and physics.  I am not physicist so my explanations may be remedial at best, and I can't actually share MSF material and curriculum with you, but I can use my knowledge of it to provide understandable answers to pretty much whatever you will ask.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 10:41:36 PM by Watcher »
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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 10:21:09 AM »
What's it like to teach people to ride?

Just kidding :icon_mrgreen:. What's the most common aspect of riding that new riders have trouble with? Being that I'm going to be teaching the barebones basics to my girlfriend, I think it would be good to know what others struggle with so if she has trouble, I know how to approach the situation.

Offline rscottlow

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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 02:39:22 PM »
What's it like to teach people to ride?

Just kidding :icon_mrgreen:. What's the most common aspect of riding that new riders have trouble with? Being that I'm going to be teaching the barebones basics to my girlfriend, I think it would be good to know what others struggle with so if she has trouble, I know how to approach the situation.

Coming from someone who first threw a leg over a motorcycle only about a year and a half ago, I'd bet that low speed maneuvering is atop that list. Haha...even lots of experienced riders seem to have trouble in that department.

I think my biggest trouble is finding the appropriate place to focus my vision. Finding that balance between being able to monitor what's far out ahead of me, with the ability to identify smaller, more inconspicuous hazards directly in front of me (gravel, potholes, sewer lids, or other potential slick spots) is hard, especially on a spirited ride. Even moreso on roads that I don't ride often enough to have memorized. Thoughts?
Scott - Cincinnati, Ohio
2009 GS500F

Offline mr72

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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 02:56:30 PM »
I don't know if this fits wth Watcher's experience but in my MSF course back in September of last year, far and away the hardest thing for anyone there to learn was how to shift and use the clutch. Basically you had maybe three of us in the class who had ridden motorcycles before (me, my dad, one other guy) who had no problems at all but everyone else struggled a lot, all but one quit over it.

The other thing that seemed to get everyone was failing to downshift 2->1 on the panic stop exercise. Seems like our instructor had to correct nearly everyone on that more than once.

"The Box" of course was the big challenge for everyone to complete in the MSF class which is low-speed maneuvering on steroids, but me and two other people were on Groms and it was a snap for the two of us who had riding experience. Grom makes that very easy.

Offline Watcher

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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 03:17:03 PM »
What's the most common aspect of riding that new riders have trouble with?

You'd think it would be some aspect of control, like clutch or maintaining stability at low speed.  All of that comes from spending hours on the bike manipulating the controls, and some of the more abstract things like counter-steering will be learned naturally, even if the rider doesn't understand why it is the way it is.

Nope.  The #1 problem I see fault new riders is their head.  Yes, them overthinking or getting themselves nervous, but more so their physical head.  And which direction it's pointing.

A natural reaction for us as humans is we tend to look at whatever is the biggest concern for us, the biggest and most common example is "target fixation."  For example, I had an older lady on day 2 put a bike in a fence.  By day 2 we stop teaching you how to operate the motorcycle on a remedial level and start teaching you how to use it on the street.  By day two you should know how to turn, how to stop, how to use the clutch, all we do is teach you more life saving skills and more maneuvering skills.  We weren't even on the exercises yet, we start day 2 off with the riders just doing a few laps around the perimeter of the range to warm the bikes and the tires up (something they did near the end of day 1, by the way, riding the perimeter in 2nd about 15-20 mph).  I start them up, send them out, and I see my last two riders in line get startled and I turn around and see her in the dirt with the bike in the fence.
She was fine, took both me and my other coach to get the bike untangled and it was a BRAND NEW Honda Rebel, 0 miles on it.  I was the first ever to ride it, she was the second.  Not a single scratch on it, by the way.
I ask her "What happened?"  She answered "The bike wouldn't turn."  The bike wouldn't turn.  Even AFTER getting pulled out of the fence it was still in alignment and the bars moved freely from full lock left to full lock right.  I wasn't trying to be condescending, was trying to get her to self assess, but I asked her "Why wouldn't the bike turn, what was it that you did wrong?"  At this she got really frustrated and started to go off on me, the second coach had to calm her down.  We put her back on but at this point she was becoming a hazard by not staying in the path of travel and such so we consulted her out of the class.  Her parting words were that she didn't appreciate being spoken to like a child, that we weren't giving her enough attention or instruction, and it was our fault she couldn't ride.  By the way, we try to give everyone the help they need and if 9/10 students get it or pretty much get it and 1/10 is struggling really hard who do you think we spend the most time with?  But at the end of the day we have a schedule and if you can't keep up with the pace of the class you aren't going to pass.  But I'm digressing.


You will have a natural tendency to go where your nose is pointed, and it affects EVERYTHING, not just which direction you're going.  Low speed balance, staying within a boundary, what SPEED you are moving at during a given moment, ALL effected by where and what you're looking at.
Someone is 100% concerned with not hitting a line, and that's where they are looking, guess what they run over?  Same with a cone.
Someone is starting to lean way over during the u-turn, they look down at the ground, guess what happens?  I tell people the u-turn is 90% head-turn.  It's not, but it might as well be.  They can understand clutch control and counter-weighting and dragging the brake and everything, but as soon as they look down all of that goes away.  Once I get them turning their heads past 90 either way they start OWNING it.
On our evaluation one of the scored criteria is coming to a stop with your front tire in a 2x3 foot blue box.  Everyone looks down at it, and everyone forgets how to use the front brake and snatches it hard.
Even judging corner entry speed.  How can you expect to be at a good speed to ride through a turn if you can't see the apex?

Just this last weekend I had another rider get really frustrated with me when I kept telling him he wasn't going fast enough through the turns.  We have a little curvy "track" setup that looks like a bean, with a straight on one side, a sweeping u-turn, a set of reverse turns, another sweeping u-turn, then the straight again.  We split the class up into smaller groups because the bean is too small for more than 4 riders at a time, so if you aren't riding we encourage you to watch and self/peer-assess.
He was going quick enough in the straight, braked well for approach, then he kept off the throttle, coasted through the turn, now he's jerky on the throttle because the bike is too loaded for 2nd gear, he doesn't pick up his speed enough to balance properly and his knees are everywhere trying to compensate.  And I keep telling him "Once you're off the brakes, get back on that throttle, you need to carry momentum in these turns otherwise you'll never be smooth.  Speed = stability, right?  I don't need you going 20 in the turn, but I need you on the gas!"  A few times around and he doesn't improve, we switch groups and he sits and watches and doesn't seem to pick up on anything, and his second time through I stop him and say the same thing.  "You need more speed!"  This time he replies "I'm going slow because of my own judgement.  I see the cracks in the asphalt and the weeds growing out and I slow down so I can avoid it."  And it clicks to me.  I'm seeing a head turn, but he isn't turning his head enough to see the apex, and he's fixated on a VERY minor detail.  As a result, he can't give me what I need, he can't give himself what he needs.  I tell him "Trust me when I say this, the weeds and the cracks won't make you crash, and this is probably 10% of what you'll find on the actual road.  It IS important to see the cracks and weeds, but just identify that they're there and move on.  You need to be looking THROUGH the curve!  If you aren't looking for that exit point how are you supposed to know how fast to go?"  He says "How can I avoid the weeds if I'm going too fast?"  That is a previous skill we learned, adjusting grip pressure to change the lean.

He got really frustrated with me, but we were scheduled a break anyway so I just sent him into the staging area with everyone else.  While we were taking a break he went to the other coach, Steve, and asked him about what I told him.  I could hear them getting loud because the student just simply didn't understand, was getting frustrated and started to argue, and now Steve is having to talk over him...  Steve ended up actually walking him out to the curve and showed him what the crack was (incredibly minor, and only on like the outside 10% of the curve).  Actually stood there and demonstrated how far ahead he should be looking, and then to the whole class explained how being off the throttle was the same as braking in a curve (a huge no-no), it'll cause you to go wide and over-input, and that the motorcycle will not want to respond to you if you aren't holding that throttle steady or rolling on gently.
The next exercise is more of the same with a little lane-change and merge mixed in.  Third time is the charm, he started looking farther, and he started keeping his speeds up.  Wasn't quite to the level we wanted, but an improvement none the less.

We teach "Look where you need to go" from the moment the students throw a leg over in exercise one to the last exercise of day 2 before the evaluation.  Sitting in the staging area feeling out the friction zone, "Don't look at the clutch!  That's not where we're going, we're going straight ahead!"


Head turn head turn head turn, eyes up eyes up eyes up, look where you want to go look where you want to go look where you want to go.   :thumb:



Coming from someone who first threw a leg over a motorcycle only about a year and a half ago, I'd bet that low speed maneuvering is atop that list. Haha...even lots of experienced riders seem to have trouble in that department.

And this biggest issue here is not that experienced riders can't balance, or can't use the friction zone of the clutch, it's that they aren't looking far enough ahead.


I think my biggest trouble is finding the appropriate place to focus my vision. Finding that balance between being able to monitor what's far out ahead of me, with the ability to identify smaller, more inconspicuous hazards directly in front of me (gravel, potholes, sewer lids, or other potential slick spots) is hard, especially on a spirited ride. Even moreso on roads that I don't ride often enough to have memorized. Thoughts?

This just comes with time.  Keeping your eyes moving and your head on a swivel.  Stuff that's far ahead (12 seconds) isn't really a big concern.  Look ahead, identify what you need to (traffic, signals, signs), and focus back nearer.  4 seconds ahead is your judgement area and where you'll spend most of your time looking.  Trying to read traffic for potential hazards, looking for escape paths, all that good stuff.  I'd say you spend at least 60% of your time here searching.  And close (2 seconds ahead) is your reaction time.  Stuff here is usually where the "target fixation" hazard is, but anything concerning here is going to require action so it's important to identify, decide what to do, and do it.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 10:43:43 PM by Watcher »
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Offline mr72

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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2017, 03:36:47 PM »
I think in our MSF class we didn't have as much of the where-to-look issue because 3/4 of us that were left by the end had lots of experience riding on 2-wheels on the road.

There's a saying mountain bikers swear by: "Look at the tree, hit the tree". That seems to apply here.

After >1K of riding my GS in the past 6 months I still find my biggest challenge actually riding is knowing how far is too far to lean. On a bicycle you will wash out and crash if you lean too hard, I have a very natural sense of that, and I think it may be interfering with my judgment on the motorcycle. This bites me the most because we have a roundabout in our neighborhood that I have to ride through about 80% of the time I leave my house and it's off-camber. I just don't feel like I can get it to turn as tight as it needs to at any speed above about 5mph and of course it's really tough to get the bike to make a smooth turn at 5mph.

I find it interesting how much stuff in my own experience started as second nature due to my bicycling and previous (dirt bike) motorcycle experience, how much became second nature after 1K miles of road riding, and what specific things still give me trouble even after 1K miles.


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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 03:37:33 PM »
I don't know if this fits wth Watcher's experience but in my MSF course back in September of last year, far and away the hardest thing for anyone there to learn was how to shift and use the clutch. Basically you had maybe three of us in the class who had ridden motorcycles before (me, my dad, one other guy) who had no problems at all but everyone else struggled a lot, all but one quit over it.

The other thing that seemed to get everyone was failing to downshift 2->1 on the panic stop exercise. Seems like our instructor had to correct nearly everyone on that more than once.

"The Box" of course was the big challenge for everyone to complete in the MSF class which is low-speed maneuvering on steroids, but me and two other people were on Groms and it was a snap for the two of us who had riding experience. Grom makes that very easy.

Shifting and clutch use by and large isn't an issue for any of the classes I taught.  I wonder if in your case it was poor instruction.  For us we even statically teach our students how to operate the clutch and shifter in exercise one, which is 100% in staging and just deals with getting to know your motorcycle.
Clutch use is big from exercise one on, we have multiple exercises that deal with shifting, and for the actual first time second gear exercise we statically go over "Roll off, clutch in, shift, roll on, clutch out" to get the students feeling it out before we have them do it while riding.

The downshift when stopping, yes, lots of people forget the downshift or even forget to pull the clutch in.  It's funny to me that out of all things, the one control that EVERYONE uses the most beyond any other is the brakes+clutch, and the one thing you do in EVERY exercise, even in exercise one with the motorcycle off, is come to a stop.  Come exercise 14 when we have the skills practice and it brings the quick stop back we'll still have people forget to clutch in to stop.   :technical:
My mantra that I pass to the students is "don't think about clutch, downshift, front brake, rear brake, that's too much to worry about all at once.  Just think 'Squeeze and press.'  Both hands are squeezing in, both feet are pressing down.  Nice and simple."

"The Box".  We stopped calling it "The Box" because it's intimidating, lol.  Seems funny but it's true!  If we say you have to u-turn in "The Box" they get really hung up on the lines and bomb it.  But once again it's all that head-turn.
Clutch control, yes.  Counter-weight, yes.  Rear brake to control speed, yes.  But I've seen people with great head turns and good balance COAST through it and score 0 points on the evaluation, and I've seen people with awesome motorcycle control forget their head turn, run wide and put a foot down, and score 10 points on the eval (16 is a fail, btw).
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 10:50:24 PM by Watcher »
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Offline Watcher

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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2017, 03:42:08 PM »
There's a saying mountain bikers swear by: "Look at the tree, hit the tree". That seems to apply here.

After >1K of riding my GS in the past 6 months I still find my biggest challenge actually riding is knowing how far is too far to lean. On a bicycle you will wash out and crash if you lean too hard, I have a very natural sense of that, and I think it may be interfering with my judgment on the motorcycle. This bites me the most because we have a roundabout in our neighborhood that I have to ride through about 80% of the time I leave my house and it's off-camber. I just don't feel like I can get it to turn as tight as it needs to at any speed above about 5mph and of course it's really tough to get the bike to make a smooth turn at 5mph.

Yeah, exactly, target fixation.  But there are a lot of things that actually don't translate well from bicycle to motorcycle.  One is the brakes, in the USA at least bicycle brakes put the rear on the right and front on the left which is counter to the motorcycle standard.  Another is low speed, where I could literally ride in a circle with a bicycle vertical, the bars turned almost 90, and my own body leaning to the inside.  On the motorcycle I'm actually hurting my turning circle by trying to keep the bike vertical, I'd instead want to lean it down as far as possible while keeping my own body vertical.  The difference is when a 180 pound man is on a 30 pound bicycle HE has more influence over the whole physics of the ride than the bicycle does.  When that same man is on a 300, 500, 800 pound motorcycle it's quite the opposite.  Bicycle stability comes from you a lot of the times.  Motorcycle stability usually comes from the motorcycle...


You'll be scraping pegs before you're leaned over too far at any speed where counter-steering is appropriate.  At speeds where you're still turning the bars (~10mph or so) it all comes down to your own personal sense of balance for how far is too far, but less than you're own physical means to keep the bike balanced just adding in more speed will start to stand the motorcycle up.  So, if you're at 5mph and feel like you're leaning too far over, let that clutch out.  Ideally understand counter-weighting to help, as the motorcycle turns better when leaned even at low speed, but because of the loss of stability at low speeds its easy for the motorcycle to want to simply fall over, and that is where "speed = stability" comes into play.  Speed in this case isn't taken to mean you should be fast, it's just that the motorcycle is most stable while it's pulling.  If it's coasting it's nearly 100% YOU that needs to balance it.  If it's accelerating or maintaining a steady speed it's essentially balancing itself.

In your roundabout scenario, I might suggest that you turn your head farther.  Don't just look ahead in your lane, follow that curve and look as far ahead into the roundabout as you comfortably can.  That's not to say that you should have your head turned 90 or father over and look at any kind of structure in the center of the roundabout, just that you should be looking far enough ahead to get a good sense of how tight the curve is.  Subconsciously this will have you put more weight to the inside bar, and through the principles of counter-steering will get you leaned over farther and you'll be able to make the turn tighter and at higher speeds.
Hell, pick a time of day when there's little to no traffic and stay IN the roundabout for a few laps.  If it's multiple lanes, stay outside first and gradually move inside and try to keep the same speed.

This is from an ARC where I was a student.  The exercise focuses on "Decreasing radius turns" so each set of cones I pass the turn gets tighter and the goal is to maintain your speed as best as you can.  Camera angle isn't the best but you can see how far I end up turning my head in relation to the direction the bike is moving.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 05:24:20 PM by Watcher »
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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2017, 05:04:38 PM »
But there are a lot of things that actually don't translate well from bicycle to motorcycle.  One is the brakes, in the USA at least bicycle brakes put the rear on the right and front on the left which is counter to the motorcycle standard. 

That never gets me at all. Again I have so many thousands of hours on a bicycle it's really just as natural as walking for me. I've been riding a bicycle almost daily for over 40 years now. And actually on a bicycle you really avoid the front brake especially when riding off road so it's really a lot more like to slow the machine, use the right hand brake. That's pretty much the same as a motorcycle. To come to a complete or hard stop, use both levers, same as a motorcycle (you're going to downshift or have the clutch in for a complete stop). The motorcycle brake pedal for the rear just feels like braking in a car.

Quote
You'll be scraping pegs before you're leaned over too far at any speed where counter-steering is appropriate.  At speeds where you're still turning the bars (~10mph or so) it all comes down to your own personal sense of balance for how far is too far,

That brings up an interesting point. Until yesterday, I had never ridden a cruiser. Only dirt/enduro bikes and my GS (and some scooters, a moped I had when I was a kid, etc.). My dad brought his Shadow 750 over and I took it around the block and it was unnerving to say the least. You lean it only a tiny bit and it's like it forces the handlebars to turn. I felt like it was trying to steer itself. Nuts. The GS doesn't do that at all. I really felt like I needed to push the inside bar to keep the handlebars straighter. Is this a normal thing? Is this some kind of typical difference in handling between cruisers with tons of rake and upright sport-standard and dirt/enduro bikes?

Quote
In your roundabout scenario, I might suggest that you turn your head farther.

If you could see the roundabout you'd see why that really isn't possible. I'm definitely looking at the "apex" which is kind of just the inside of a continuous curve. But there's sort of a little bit of landscaped parkish area in the middle of the roundabout so you can't see through the center and it straddles a hill (which is why it's off-camber on one side) so you can't see more than 90 degrees around the bend. And you have to constantly look right to watch for teenage drivers ignoring the yield signs coming in to the roundabout (tons of them).

Quote
  Don't just look ahead in your lane, follow that curve and look as far ahead into the roundabout as you comfortably can.

Yeah, doing that.

[/quote] ...Subconsciously this will have you put more weight to the inside bar, and through the principles of counter-steering will get you leaned over farther and you'll be able to make the turn tighter and at higher speeds.
Hell, pick a time of day when there's little to no traffic and stay IN the roundabout for a few laps.  If it's multiple lanes, stay outside first and gradually move inside and try to keep the same speed.
[/quote]

Yeah I need to go out there and practice for sure.


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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2017, 05:34:58 PM »
You'll be scraping pegs before you're leaned over too far at any speed where counter-steering is appropriate.  At speeds where you're still turning the bars (~10mph or so) it all comes down to your own personal sense of balance for how far is too far...

That brings up an interesting point. Until yesterday, I had never ridden a cruiser. Only dirt/enduro bikes and my GS (and some scooters, a moped I had when I was a kid, etc.). My dad brought his Shadow 750 over and I took it around the block and it was unnerving to say the least. You lean it only a tiny bit and it's like it forces the handlebars to turn. I felt like it was trying to steer itself. Nuts. The GS doesn't do that at all. I really felt like I needed to push the inside bar to keep the handlebars straighter. Is this a normal thing? Is this some kind of typical difference in handling between cruisers with tons of rake and upright sport-standard and dirt/enduro bikes?

Not really.  Rake does have a profound effect on how easily a motorcycle will "turn in", and the handlebars themselves may change your perspective of how it feels, but the principles of operation are identical on a dirtbike, on a cruiser, on a scooter, on a MotoGP bike.  We even use multiple styles of bikes at the MSF, Honda Rebel, Kawi KLX250, Honda CB300, Kawi Ninja 250, and as much as possible I rotate through these bikes each time I teach as proof to the students it's not any harder or easier on A or B or C.
At speeds around 10mph or so you need to turn the bars to change direction.  At speeds around 15mph and up you have to counter-steer.  All that changes is how MUCH you have to counter-steer and how MUCH you have to turn the bars to get a desired turn.


The bike is inherently stable at speed.  If you could lock the throttle, you could enter a turn and fully release the handlebars and the motorcycle won't go off line.  If it feels like it is steering itself, it's because it is, and you should LET IT!
The huge perception change may actually be because you're are subconsciously holding your GS's bars too tight.  If you ever get tired in the arms or wrists while riding it's because you are gripping too tight, have weight on your arms, or are fighting yourself while pressing the bars to counter-steer.  You should have just enough grip on the throttle to actually turn the throttle, mirror on the clutch side, it should be effortless to press the bike left or right, and once it's pressed down in the turn you shouldn't have pressure to either side any longer, at this point you should only keep pressing inside to turn tighter, or press outside to turn less and/or return to a straight line.

I really suggest you watch "A Twist of the Wrist II".  Most of the stuff they talk about seems like it would be more specific to a race bike on a track, but the reality is track riding techniques will HELP your road riding.  Maybe on the road you aren't concerned with a perfect apex and higher exit speed, but the concepts of control and lean are not specific to road conditions or scenario.  They just work.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 05:42:50 PM by Watcher »
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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 05:39:24 PM »
  If it feels like it is steering itself, it's because it is, and you should LET IT!

Yeah, my dad suggested that sine the center of gravity is lower it just feels like it is leaning a lot less than it actually is, so I am basically leaning too far. That makes sense. I'm sure my GS does the same thing if I lean it the same amount (or something like it... wheelbase is considerably shorter).

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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 08:52:58 PM »
Great tips Watcher, thanks!

...
If you could lock the throttle, you could enter a turn and fully release the handlebars and the motorcycle won't go off line.  If it feels like it is steering itself, it's because it is, and you should LET IT!
...

There's a section of Twist of the Wrist II where they do that with the No-Body-Steering Bike. Blew my mind the first time I watched it. They have the pillion rider (who is holding the steering bars) let go entirely while the main rider holds a steady throttle on the fixed bars.

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I really suggest you watch "A Twist of the Wrist II".  Most of the stuff they talk about seems like it would be more specific to a race bike on a track, but the reality is track riding techniques will HELP your road riding.  Maybe on the road you aren't concerned with a perfect apex and higher exit speed, but the concepts of control and lean are not specific to road conditions or scenario.  They just work.

+1. That video has so much good info in it.

That brings up an interesting point. Until yesterday, I had never ridden a cruiser. Only dirt/enduro bikes and my GS (and some scooters, a moped I had when I was a kid, etc.). My dad brought his Shadow 750 over and I took it around the block and it was unnerving to say the least. You lean it only a tiny bit and it's like it forces the handlebars to turn. I felt like it was trying to steer itself. Nuts. The GS doesn't do that at all. I really felt like I needed to push the inside bar to keep the handlebars straighter. Is this a normal thing? Is this some kind of typical difference in handling between cruisers with tons of rake and upright sport-standard and dirt/enduro bikes?

I had a sort of opposite experience with my dad's R75 lol. I wouldn't really call it a "cruiser", but its much less sporty than my GS for sure. Anyway, when I rode it, I felt like it didn't want to lean over at all. I really had to wrestle it to get it to lean. But, it does wear its weight much differently than the GS, since the cylinder heads stick out perpendicular to the bike.

But I do have the "bars turning by themselves" kind of sensation when I ride the Blast. I think that may just be me flicking it over a bit harder than I should since it feels so much smaller/lower than the GS.

Offline barry905

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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2017, 09:05:03 PM »
First of all a big thank you to watcher for the time and effort that he has put in in his answers (so far). I have been riding motorbikes on and off for a long time now, and I find it fascinating reading his explanations of why I do the things I do. Top me it just "feels right". But that is a culmination of too much "doing it wrong" and thankfully learning form my mistakes.

In response to the cruiser question, the only time I ever rode one (a Shadow 750) my feeling was that the centre of gravity was a lot lower and the whole bike was over responsive to my attempts to control it using my body weight compared my GS, although a discussion on the effect of steering rake on handling would be appreciated.

When I was learning to ride/drive, the one mantra that was given for cornering, or in fact any turning, was "slow in, fast out". This again underlines the need to keep the throttle on whilst turning/cornering so that you keep control of the bike. The other observation is that as I got better(?) at this whole riding/driving thing, so I started to focus further and further down the road, again underlining points made above.

Once again, thanks.
Back on bikes and loving it.

Offline Watcher

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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2017, 10:34:25 PM »
In response to the cruiser question, the only time I ever rode one (a Shadow 750) my feeling was that the center of gravity was a lot lower and the whole bike was over responsive to my attempts to control it using my body weight compared my GS.

I had a similar feeling when first riding my Buell.  It's gas tank isn't a gas tank (it's the air filter), the fuel is in the frame, the engine is a dry sump with the swing-arm being the oil tank, and the exhaust is under the engine.  The weight is WAY low compared to any other bike I've ridden, and that makes it an interesting combination of incredibly stable and amazingly flickable, once you understand how to ride it.
I'm used to my Honda and GS sort of naturally tipping in on low speed maneuvers and being able to set my counter-weight nearly immediately, with the Buell I was starting to counter-weight and the bike would more or less just stay vertical and it was puzzling.
You can think of the mass of the bike and the mass of the rider as interacting like a lever.  A motorcycle with even weight distribution with you sitting on top is a fairly balanced arrangement, and it becomes very predictable how it responds to changes you as the rider influence.
But a motorcycle with LOW weight distribution is like you just took your lever and moved the pivot point way closer to the bike, so any input on your end has a more measurable effect on the motorcycle.
Think of it like one of those Roly Poly toys (you know, weighted round bottoms, you can push it over and it'll stand back up) vs a typical mannequin with a heavy base.  You can push the mannequin off balance and it may require some force, and it'll return back because of the weighted base but when it does it'll be fairly even to the way you pushed it.  Now push the Roly Poly with the same force, it falls right over but also snaps right back up.  So your push had a more profound effect on the Roly Poly, despite the Roly Poly being a technically more stable platform.

Once I thought of this, I started to lean my Buell down into my u-turns and THEN counter-weight after it was already down, and this tended to work A LOT better, and all it would take to stand it back up was look straight, relax my body, and roll that throttle on.  It's the same when considering a cruiser.


A discussion on the effect of steering rake on handling would be appreciated.

We can't cover this without covering Counter-Steering and how it works!  Oh boy!

Motorcycles don't really turn because you rotate the front wheel to face left or right, it has some influence on direction but it's rather odd.  The reality is motorcycles turn because the tires are curved, and riding on this curved portion is what best allows you to change direction.  I won't get into the science of it too much, but you can easily confirm this if you've ever rolled a hoola-hoop down the road.  It goes pretty straight, but once it slows and it starts to wobble it'll inevitably lean to one side and then what does it start doing?  It turns!  Usually in a big circle which gets tighter as the hoop falls, and eventually it topples.  So it is the motorcycle LEANING OVER onto it's curved tires that actually turns it, not the direction the wheels are facing.  Moving on.

This is well covered in "A Twist of the Wrist II", but to summarize it they rig a motorcycle up with a second set of bars attached to the frame with just a throttle to show what effect physically leaning off the motorcycle does.  It's almost nothing.  Why?  Because a motorcycle has gyroscopic stability when moving.

Now lets ignore motorcycles completely for a minute, and go for a ride in a car.  You make a turn to the left, which way do you end up leaning?  You make a turn to the right, which way do you end up leaning?  Opposite the turn, right?  It's because of centrifugal force.  An object wants to go straight, so when you turn the forces trying to keep you going straight make you lean outside of a turn.
Apply that to a motorcycle, if you steer left, the motorcycle indeed does start to go left, but the forces at play lean it the opposite direction, and because it's now leaned to the right it will turn to the right...  Counter-steering.  Everyone understand?  Excellent!


Rake.  This may be hard to visualize, but bear with me.  Imagine looking straight down through a motorcycle towards the road, and picture the headstock being perfectly perpendicular to the road surface (0 rake).  When you turn the handlebars from 12 o'clock to 2 o'clock, the tire's alignment on the road surface also turns from 12 o'clock to 2 o'clock.  If the headstock is parallel to the road surface (90 rake), you can turn the bars from 12 to 2, but the tire doesn't rotate at all, it merely falls onto it's side.
The effect of counter steering is most drastic if the headstock is perfectly perpendicular to the road surface.  On a sport bike if you turn the bars left that tire really bites hard because of it's drastic change of direction, it really wants to go left, you lean right, and now you go right.  On a chopper with a really raked out front end the wheel doesn't actually turn nearly as much from the same rotation in the bars, so you don't have a really strong pull in that direction, you don't lean over as far, and you don't turn as tight.

Why not make a sportbike with a perfectly 0 rake?  Well, a 0 rake can actually be TOO aggressive to where imperfections in the road surface will be easily translated back to you, making control more difficult.  The motorcycle is more stable when there is SOME rake.  Another reason is suspension.  As you brake the whole bike leans forward, and when you load that front end up it changes the steering geometry.  A fully compressed front end on a GP bike may get pretty steep.  A factory Yamaha R1M already has a 24 rake on it, under heavy braking that rake can draw in to less than 20.  This is also why many racers "trail brake" (or brake into the turn).  With the forks compressed, the tire squashed down, and the steering rake very steep, their tire's contact patch is much larger and the effect of counter steering is very aggressive.  However, if the rake was already vertical, or too close to vertical, this suspension action would actually send the forks into an undesirable angle and hurt performance overall.

Most street cycles don't NEED a rake that's that aggressive, so they don't have one.  Most street cycles don't handle well raked way out, that's why they typically aren't.  A good middle-of-the-road rake around 25-30 seems to fit the bill for most riders in most situations, from our beloved Suzuki GS to the Harley Sportster.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 03:58:08 PM by Watcher »
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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2017, 09:12:08 AM »
Pretty good descriptions :)

Motorcycles don't really turn because you rotate the front wheel to face left or right, it has some influence on direction but it's rather odd.  The reality is motorcycles turn because the tires are curved, and riding on this curved portion is what best allows you to change direction.

It would be both. The problem with "turning" the handlebar alone without leaning is just as you described before, due to the location of the center of mass it would tend to make the bike roll away from the turn and fall over ("high side" crash). So you must lean it to prevent this, and to get the force vector applying in the right direction on the tire so that centrifugal force results in increase tire adhesion rather than tossing you over.

It's so happens that leaning a round-profile tire causes it to turn as well.

The rake and trail of the fork causes a mechanical leaning of the bike whenever you turn the fork even a little bit, so this enforces this "lean the bike to turn" behavior because even at very low speeds a small steering input causes the bike to lean... even when it's parked! Put it on the side stand and you'll notice it leans over more when turned left than it does when turned right. That's because of the trail and rake of the fork.

At speeds above moseying pace turning the handlebar is not effective to turn a motorcycle simply because of the geometry. If you want to make the smallest turning circle possible you can only control the bike and complete it at walking speed, and it requires handlebar steering input. But you can't make this tight of a turn going 20, 30, etc. mph without crashing. Simple physics limits the minimum turning radius at speed due to tires and road surface adhesion and the fact that there are only two wheels on the ground and no way to keep a large contact patch with vertical force on the road surface (like with a car). Lean too far going too fast in a turn (trying to tighten the circle) and you will low-side crash (cyclists call this "washing out"). Turn too much steering angle when going too fast to try to tighten the turn and you will roll the wrong way and high-side crash.

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Now lets ignore motorcycles completely for a minute, and go for a ride in a car.  You make a turn to the left, which way do you end up leaning?  You make a turn to the right, which way do you end up leaning?  Opposite the turn, right?  It's because of centrifugal force.  An object wants to go straight, so when you turn the forces trying to keep you going straight make you lean outside of a turn.

Actually, the reason the car leans away from the turn is because the roll center is below the center of mass. The roll center is the axis about which the vehicle will roll when lateral force (like centrifugal force) is applied. On a motorcycle, since it only has two wheels, the roll center is the contact point between the tires and the ground. In a car, since it has four wheels and the center of mass is somewhere between the two left and right sets of wheels, the roll center is a result of suspension geometry and usually somewhere near to the center of the axles. If you could make the roll center and the center of mass coincide then the car wouldn't lean at all in a turn... this would require a car somewhat like a go-kart with three foot tall wheels and solid suspension, so basically it's not possible. If you could make the roll center be above the center of mass then the car would lean inside the turn like a motorcycle would, which would actually be a bad thing since it would result in unloading the outside tire and cause a loss of traction.

Of course in a car you have four wheels and weight transfer. The car's suspension does the work of distributing the weight of the car onto the four wheels during a turn and the rolling of the car is actually a necessity in order for the suspension to work. When the car rolls right in a left turn, that enables the suspension to move so the geometry of the suspension along with spring rates, roll stiffness, etc. can be used by the designer or suspension tuner to tune the handling response and distribute traction to the four wheels. Compared with motorcycles, car suspension is incredibly complex. The problem is the behavior at lower speeds is remarkably different than that at higher speeds, and pitch caused by braking and acceleration plays a huge role in transitional behavior along with forward force vector on the drive wheels. A car that understeers in a steady state corner will suddenly begin to oversteer when you lift the throttle or brake, but if it is rear wheel drive it will probably also begin to oversteer once you apply throttle to accelerate. It's a really tricky thing, car handling. :)

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Rake.  This may be hard to visualize, but bear with me.  Imagine looking straight down through a motorcycle towards the road, and picture the headstock being perfectly perpendicular to the road surface.  When you turn the handlebars from 12 o'clock to 2 o'clock, the tire's alignment on the road surface also turns from 12 o'clock to 2 o'clock.  If the headstock is parallel to the road surface, you can turn the bars from 12 to 2, but the tire doesn't rotate at all, it merely falls onto it's side.

Actually it would make that tire lean which would cause a turn just like leaning the bike. But this would be a very large-radius turn and you'd not be able to tighten the radius sufficiently to actually make a useful turn before the tire were laying flat on the road. This is why less than 90 degrees of rake (or more than 0 degrees head angle) is usually required... also why you can steer a chopper but not very tight. :)

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The effect of counter steering is most drastic if the headstock is perfectly perpendicular to the road surface.  On a sport bike if you turn the bars left that tire really bites hard because of it's drastic change of direction, it really wants to go left, you lean right, and now you go right.  On a chopper with a really raked out front end the wheel doesn't actually turn nearly as much from the same rotation in the bars, so you don't have a really strong pull in that direction, you don't lean over as far, and you don't turn as tight.

Right, because the rake (and to an extent, trail) determines the degree to which turning the wheel results in leaning the tire vs. turning the tire. A steeper head angle (closer to 90 deg.) is more turning, shallower is more leaning. The compromise here is the steeper the head angle the more likely it is to want to turn, or the less effort is required to make it turn (as you describe, "turn in"). But the shallower, the more likely the bike will want to stay straight, and thus feel very stable.

And I actually think on my dad's bike this is why I felt the handlebar was so STRONG in trying to turn itself, because of the shallower head angle (which is really caster angle) which makes it want to stay on-center, but on-center when leaning is slightly turned due to the tire profile and the combination of rake and trail.

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Why not make a sportbike with a perfectly 90 up and down front fork?  Suspension.  As you brake the whole bike leans forward, and when you load that front end up it changes the steering geometry.  A fully compressed front end on a GP bike may very well be vertical (or close to).

I'm not sure this is true, is it? Seems like sport bike head angles are in the range of 65-70 degrees (similar to mountain bikes, actually) so you'd have to pitch 20 degrees or more to get it to be a right angle. I suppose that's possible but seems quite unlikely in a turn.

But the point is you'd have zero directional stability once the head angle approached 90 degrees just like your example above with a 90-degree head angle. The bike would want to turn or change direction with any input. So as you steepen that head angle, in braking for example, it would become jittery and uncontrollable. I have experienced this on a bicycle many, many times (we are talking while progressing towards and endo...), and the result usually is that any change in road surface at all, a pebble or crack etc., causes the wheel to turn and turn a lot, to maximum lock. And that will cause a high-side crash because when the wheel turns without leaning (because zero rake) then it sort of "trips" the bike. On a bicycle we call this an "endo".

So the goal is to ensure that you always have at least enough rake under all conditions to prevent this condition.

I don't want to do the math but I am not sure that without doing a "stoppie" (fork fully compressed, rear wheel off the ground) you will get very close to 90 degrees. And I think the rotational inertia would cause you to truly do an endo if you did.

Anyway, thanks for the explanations. I'm always here to unnecessarily discuss the physics with far too much detail. You should see how annoying I am on the Jeep forum, where they talk about 4-wheel vehicles with suspension technology that was perfected in the covered wagon.

Offline Watcher

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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2017, 02:46:46 PM »
Motorcycles don't really turn because you rotate the front wheel to face left or right, it has some influence on direction but it's rather odd.  The reality is motorcycles turn because the tires are curved, and riding on this curved portion is what best allows you to change direction.

It would be both.
It's so happens that leaning a round-profile tire causes it to turn as well.


For the end goal of my explanation, I purposely suggested that rotating the bars does not turn the motorcycle.  When talking about a motorcycle riding through a turn the front wheel is NOT at a constant position pointed towards the apex like it would be in a car.  Once the bike is leaned over, the wheels are more or less in line with each other, so it's not the front wheel's direction that makes you turn, it's the profile of the tires.  You aren't turning by rotating the handlebars, you're turning by leaning to one side or the other.  By rotating the handlebars you're more correctly steering the motorcycle, not turning it.  It's "counter-steering," not "counter-turning."  It may be splitting hairs but I feel it's an important distinction.

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If you want to make the smallest turning circle possible you can only control the bike and complete it at walking speed, and it requires handlebar steering input. 

This is false.  If you've never seen motorcycle obstacle course racing it'll blow your mind.
Just as before, being on the side profile of the tire is what is most effective at turning the bike, so the farther you lean the bike over the tighter it will turn.  Once again it speaks to counter-weighting.  If you have the balance to keep the bike mostly upright some bikes can be at full lock and not be able to turn tight enough.  My Buell is one, if I go full lock with no lean it takes me 2 lanes to u-turn.  But get that motorcycle leaning IN and your turn tightens.

This is fun, as long as you have the momentum and available traction you CAN get the bike leaned all the way over, maybe even drag a knee, going 15ish and make the same turn as an average rider staying mostly vertical and going at a walking pace.


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Lean too far going too fast in a turn (trying to tighten the circle) and you will low-side crash (cyclists call this "washing out"). Turn too much steering angle when going too fast to try to tighten the turn and you will roll the wrong way and high-side crash.

No, you don't quite understand what causes a low-side or high-side.  It's almost nothing to do with steering input.

Leaning too far does have an effect on it because the farther over you are leaned the less of the tire is in contact with the ground, so ANY slide is less likely to happen at a lesser lean angle, but whether or not you lose that grip more or less depends completely on the throttle use.  Typically too much throttle starts the rear wheel slipping and what you do next will dictate high side vs low side.  Don't let off the throttle at all or roll on more (usually this is accidental) will send that rear wheel out farther and you'll end up on the ground.  Low side.
Chop that throttle off completely (typically what most people do in a car to regain a slipping rear end, and a normal panic response) makes the tire bite hard and the violent return to in line with the front tire will throw the rider off the motorcycle.  High side.
The proper save is to gently roll off so the tire can bite more without completely snatching the road, so it will gradually return to line.

What you are talking about is more losing the front end, and that will always result in a low-side in it of itself.  You want to tighten the turn, you turn the bars outside of the turn because of counter-steering, but if you're already at your lean threshold or close to you can just physically break the front tire loose and you'll instantly end up on the ground, but in a LOWSIDE not a highside.

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Now lets ignore motorcycles completely for a minute, and go for a ride in a car.  You make a turn to the left, which way do you end up leaning?  You make a turn to the right, which way do you end up leaning?  Opposite the turn, right?  It's because of centrifugal force.  An object wants to go straight, so when you turn the forces trying to keep you going straight make you lean outside of a turn.

Actually, the reason the car leans away from the turn is because the roll center is below the center of mass. The roll center is the axis about which the vehicle will roll when lateral force (like centrifugal force) is applied. {snip}

Thanks for the physics lesson, but it wasn't necessary to understand that the forces that make you lean "outside" in a car is what makes counter-steering a motorcycle work.
Aside from me not wanting to type these huge lectures I've seen people's eyes glaze over from too much detail.  Teaching on the range if someone wants me to better describe why counter-steering works I'll use the car example.  If they want more details I'll tell them to talk to me after class.

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Rake.  This may be hard to visualize, but bear with me.  Imagine looking straight down through a motorcycle towards the road, and picture the headstock being perfectly perpendicular to the road surface.  When you turn the handlebars from 12 o'clock to 2 o'clock, the tire's alignment on the road surface also turns from 12 o'clock to 2 o'clock.  If the headstock is parallel to the road surface, you can turn the bars from 12 to 2, but the tire doesn't rotate at all, it merely falls onto it's side.

Actually it would make that tire lean which would cause a turn just like leaning the bike. But this would be a very large-radius turn and you'd not be able to tighten the radius sufficiently to actually make a useful turn before the tire were laying flat on the road.

Once again there's a reason why I chose to say what I said.  Being on the side of the tire makes the vehicle turn, yes, but it doesn't steer the motorcycle.  Simply pushing that tire onto it's side would work a lot like body steering, that is to say it wont.  You'll get some change of direction, but it won't be anywhere close enough to call it control.

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Why not make a sportbike with a perfectly 90 up and down front fork?  Suspension.  As you brake the whole bike leans forward, and when you load that front end up it changes the steering geometry.  A fully compressed front end on a GP bike may very well be vertical (or close to).

I'm not sure this is true, is it? Seems like sport bike head angles are in the range of 65-70 degrees (similar to mountain bikes, actually) so you'd have to pitch 20 degrees or more to get it to be a right angle. I suppose that's possible but seems quite unlikely in a turn.

But the point is you'd have zero directional stability once the head angle approached 90 degrees just like your example above with a 90-degree head angle. The bike would want to turn or change direction with any input. So as you steepen that head angle, in braking for example, it would become jittery and uncontrollable...  any change in road surface at all, a pebble or crack etc., causes the wheel to turn.

So the goal is to ensure that you always have at least enough rake under all conditions to prevent this condition.

You're completely right here.  My example was extreme, and may be even on the edge of ridiculous.  I'm actually going to go back and revise it a little.  I'm going to get a little more in line with the actual terminology, as well, since technically a "zero rake" is vertical.  The higher the number the farther out it goes.

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Anyway, thanks for the explanations. I'm always here to unnecessarily discuss the physics with far too much detail. You should see how annoying I am on the Jeep forum, where they talk about 4-wheel vehicles with suspension technology that was perfected in the covered wagon.

Always interesting to read your technical explanations, but I'm not here to talk specific mathematical physics or ponder on when the moon is closest to the Earth and therefor gravity is lessened should I run a lower PSI in my tires because less weight means a naturally smaller contact patch or whatever.

"Ask a RiderCoach" is more or less how I'd be answering questions in an informal classroom setting, much as I do on the weekends teaching new riders.  I'm not here to get THAT specific, but I'm here to help you understand why things are the way they are.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 04:03:15 PM by Watcher »
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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2017, 10:31:12 AM »
So, I took the Blast out for a ride last night after working on it a little bit. I was really paying attention to the feedback from the bars and I noticed it REALLY likes to turn the bars in whenever the bike leans. Like, if I countersteer the bike into a left lean, I can feel the bars sort of "trying" to turn left while the bike is leaned over. I don't feel like I'm in danger or anything, but I don't get that sensation at ALL when riding my GS.

Any explanation for that behavior? Is it the bike? Is it something I'm doing? Or is that normal for a bike with a much less sporty riding position?

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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2017, 10:57:36 AM »
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If you want to make the smallest turning circle possible you can only control the bike and complete it at walking speed, and it requires handlebar steering input. 

This is false.  ..
My Buell is one, if I go full lock with no lean it takes me 2 lanes to u-turn.  But get that motorcycle leaning IN and your turn tightens.

That's because of the lock limit, not because you can't turn it without leaning.

I didn't suggest, ever, that to not lean the bike will result in tighter turns. But you absolutely cannot maneuver a motorcycle within the tightest turning radius it will make without turning the handlebars. I am not sure how you are really, truly suggesting that is "false".

Look, it's obvious from your response that I triggered some kind of defensiveness. It's not necessary. I have no interest in challenging your authority as a RiderCoach or affecting how you instruct your students.

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Lean too far going too fast in a turn (trying to tighten the circle) and you will low-side crash (cyclists call this "washing out"). Turn too much steering angle when going too fast to try to tighten the turn and you will roll the wrong way and high-side crash.

No, you don't quite understand what causes a low-side or high-side.  It's almost nothing to do with steering input.

Again, you missed my point entirely. But go ahead, assume I don't understand what I'm talking about. I didn't say this is THE CAUSE of low-side or high-side crashes. I am talking strictly about the physics of it. sheesh.

I have no debate about your suggestion of how to handle the case of loss of rear traction in a turn with the throttle.

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What you are talking about is more losing the front end,


No, it isn't. But whatever. I really did read what you posted and worked pretty hard to understand it. I'd appreciate the same.

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Thanks for the physics lesson, but it wasn't necessary ...  Teaching on the range if someone wants me to better describe why counter-steering works I'll use the car example.  If they want more details I'll tell them to talk to me after class.

I thought we were having a discussion on the gstwins.com message board and not in your class or on the range.

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You're completely right here.

Comes rather as a shock considering you spent the entire rest of your post telling me how I am wrong.

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Always interesting to read your technical explanations, but I'm not here to talk specific mathematical physics or ponder on when the moon is closest to the Earth and therefor gravity is lessened should I run a lower PSI in my tires because less weight means a naturally smaller contact patch or whatever.

Your topic, your rules I guess. I'll go back to posting on other threads then.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 10:59:41 AM by mr72 »

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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2017, 11:51:56 AM »
Again, you missed my point entirely. But go ahead, assume I don't understand what I'm talking about. I didn't say this is THE CAUSE of low-side or high-side crashes. I am talking strictly about the physics of it. sheesh.

I think Watcher was just trying to point out that "too much steering angle" (By which, I'm assuming you mean turning the bars in the direction which you are attempting to turn. Correct me if that's not what you meant.) when attempting to tighten a turn isn't really a major cause of high-side crashes. As Watcher said, almost all high-sides are caused by chopping the throttle after the rear wheel loses traction, not "too much steering angle".

I do think doing turning the bars into the turn could cause a high-side if you turned the bars too far too quickly, so if that's all you were saying, I agree. But I don't think that's a very common occurrence... Most people's first instinct when trying to tighten a turn is to let off the throttle or brake to try to slow down, which will run them wide (any maybe off the road), not cause a high-side.

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Re: Ask a RiderCoach!
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2017, 12:11:55 PM »

I do think doing turning the bars into the turn could cause a high-side if you turned the bars too far too quickly, so if that's all you were saying, I agree. But I don't think that's a very common occurrence..

Yeah I wasn't talking about practically what tends to happen in the real world, I was talking about the physics of turning the handlebar vs. leaning at or near the limits of traction.