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2nd amendment and well, why was it written

Started by The Buddha, July 26, 2012, 07:52:07 AM

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Huff1371

I beieve we may agree, or at least I hope so, on the FACT that regardless of any reasonable governence crazy ass people will try and unfortunately suceed in killing others. A homemade explosive device works and is easy to employ, from the manufacturig to the execution, with the CORRECT info. while looking into this I found that about half of sources on the web are incorrect, making me happy that some @$$hole is about to burn his garage down while worrying about the 13 year old that will do the same. And to be clear, grenades were more powerful at one point but for multiple reasons (collateral damage, weight, ease of use, fragmentation materials, etc.)  have been made smaller and more accomodating for the troops that use them. A M67 has a 15m casualty range yet frag can be thrown 175m+. The frag inside is designed to disipate its energy in this range.

But back on guns. Without knowing your exposure to guns, I won't assume anything. But have you ever been out shooting? The hardest thing about it isn't hitting the target, it's picking up ALL the brass. I reload most of the ammo that I fire and make a strong attempt at finding all my brass. Are you saying that I should accept a large monetary loss if I can't find a casing? Or would I just attach a catch to my AR-15, and yes these already exist, to catch every round I fire? In which case the drive-by dude can hang one on his. And as far as somebody with $20 taking 20-30 people....Have you priced a gun in the last 150 years? But really, assuming said @$$hole has the gun, $20 in ammo would take a very skilled person to come close to that figure. I doubt many police officers could have that kind of "success". The answer is not gun/bullet control. It's not driving up cost of everything to un-attainable prices. And I agree it's not "arm everyone". The answer is to find a way to identify these people before they attempt this. And how do we do that? Well, if I knew I would not be posting about gun control, IEDs, bullets, and bull$h!t.
Friendly fire, isn't. But it's the most accurate. Semper Fi

Phil B

Quote from: Huff1371 on August 09, 2012, 04:12:27 PM
The answer is not gun/bullet control. It's not driving up cost of everything to un-attainable prices. And I agree it's not "arm everyone". The answer is to find a way to identify these people before they attempt this. And how do we do that?

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. in practice, they arent".

Yes of course the "ideal" solution, "in theory", is to identify these things before they actually happen.
*But THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE, AND ALWAYS WILL BE.*

So then in practice,  you are left with "okay, it's gonna happen, so lets attempt to minimize the damage when it does."

Now, are you(and other rabid gun control) people capable of admitting that something IS a potentially solution, even when it is one you dont particularly *like*?

"Arming everyone" *is* one solution.  You dont like that solution, okay. but that doesnt make it "not a solution". It just makes it "not one you personally will support".
To rewrite it otherwise, is being, shall we say in polite terms, "intellectually dishonest".

I think it's been shown enough that "increase price of bullets" will not "solve" things.
I dont recall seeing any facts behind the claim that arming everyone is "not a solution", in the path to minimizing damage when the inevitable occurs.
In contrast, there *are* facts and statistics supporting the argument that arming everyone does, indeed, reduce violent crime.
For example,

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/04/18/us-usa-crime-shooting-town-idUSN1719257620070418

"When the (mandatory gun law) was passed in 1982 there was a substantial drop in crime ... and we have maintained a really low crime rate since then," :thumb:



Yet somehow, anti-gun crusaders never seem to let any inconvenient FACTS, get in the way of their religious crusade.
Sheesh. :cookoo:


Huff1371

I seriously hope nobody thinks I am anti-gun. I would wager i probably own more than anyone involved in this thread. But "arm everyone" is only a way for all idiots who have not the ability, maturity, or care to handle a firearm properly to show how dangerous a gun can be. To think otherwise would only be putting yourself into that category.  I've taught many people how to properly handle a firearm, and without that instruction i have no doubt there would be serious consequences. It's not a solution. It's kinda along the lines of "i don't know how to fix it, but i can tell you it's broken. "
Friendly fire, isn't. But it's the most accurate. Semper Fi

The Buddha

Quote from: bombsquad83 on August 09, 2012, 11:18:08 AM
I didn't call anyone a name.  I think it's appropriate to call things as they are, and I think it's a bit ridiculous when you try to explain away every well supported point that everyone but you in this thread is making with fake statistics straight out of your brain and through your keyboard.  I'm all for discussion.  I'd like to hear a response that is well researched, and has some historical precedent to back it up.  Until then, it's not worth discussing.

Here's the deal.  You think it's worth the cost of freedom to take away peoples guns to attempt to prevent a few bad actors from killing people, and the rest of us don't.  We can at least agree to disagree.   When there is a riot/revolution/crime wave, you can still come to my house for protection if you want.  That is of course unless the government has already taken my guns.

I cant provide statistics cos its never been tried. I also am only showing flaws in other posts using numbers from other things to conclude about guns. Bullets are not like gasoline, food or cigarettes. Using stats from the effects of raising prices on those are irrelevant.

When there is a crime wave - Well bombsquad, you seem to have missed the boat with that one, by a few years atleast. You should have stopped the guy in VTech, and in arizona, and in colorado and in wisconsin.

Finally I wont be taking away your guns, or your ammo, or even making them cost more. Did you even read my post. You interpret any regulation as bad, and that results in all the wrong people getting guns and ammo easily and cheaply. Your ammo is all yours and easily refilled, you only need to keep your shell casings. Is that an extra burden - definetly, however it will make sure only people who are law abiding get more ammo.

The whole idea of "only guns can stop gun violence" is flawed. The idea that guns can stop home made IED's is also very much so. Guns help in one small section of violent crime - home invasions if the owners are home. To that end, rifles, or any big gun - non concealable weapon will work. Which is why I have one of those.

Cool.
Buddha.
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The Buddha

Quote from: Huff1371 on August 09, 2012, 04:12:27 PM
I beieve we may agree, or at least I hope so, on the FACT that regardless of any reasonable governence crazy ass people will try and unfortunately suceed in killing others. A homemade explosive device works and is easy to employ, from the manufacturig to the execution, with the CORRECT info. while looking into this I found that about half of sources on the web are incorrect, making me happy that some @$$hole is about to burn his garage down while worrying about the 13 year old that will do the same. And to be clear, grenades were more powerful at one point but for multiple reasons (collateral damage, weight, ease of use, fragmentation materials, etc.)  have been made smaller and more accomodating for the troops that use them. A M67 has a 15m casualty range yet frag can be thrown 175m+. The frag inside is designed to disipate its energy in this range.

But back on guns. Without knowing your exposure to guns, I won't assume anything. But have you ever been out shooting? The hardest thing about it isn't hitting the target, it's picking up ALL the brass. I reload most of the ammo that I fire and make a strong attempt at finding all my brass. Are you saying that I should accept a large monetary loss if I can't find a casing? Or would I just attach a catch to my AR-15, and yes these already exist, to catch every round I fire? In which case the drive-by dude can hang one on his. And as far as somebody with $20 taking 20-30 people....Have you priced a gun in the last 150 years? But really, assuming said @$$hole has the gun, $20 in ammo would take a very skilled person to come close to that figure. I doubt many police officers could have that kind of "success". The answer is not gun/bullet control. It's not driving up cost of everything to un-attainable prices. And I agree it's not "arm everyone". The answer is to find a way to identify these people before they attempt this. And how do we do that? Well, if I knew I would not be posting about gun control, IEDs, bullets, and bull$h!t.

I have no problem getting all the casings. However I dont shoot out of an ak 47, or a glock with a high capacity mag. You use one of those, I would guess you need something that catches it all, or maybe the range owner can certify you used 10 when you only got 8 casings.  Remember this is about slowly bleeding away the illegal supply of ammo to criminals.

We can I would think leave IED's out of this, those are going to be nearly independent of the guns and ammo situation.

And thank you for saying "arming everyone is not the solution" Better you said it than me. I was trying hard to not say that. We only need to arm the law abiding citizens. Now guns are a 1 time deal. Have it  and you have it. We cant coltrol it that way. In fact I'd cut that whole legislation out, we dont care who gets a gun, we're going to choke off bullets, however we can't do that as yet, there is a lot of bullets out there. If we start to choke off bullets we will get a handle on this.

And the biggie, and I agree with this idea though "We need to identify and treat these people before they do this" - do you realise how big a program that will have to be and conversely how expensive, how hard to account and how easy it will be to say that that "govt agency" failed ?
Think the TEA party is an army of loud, crusading activists now ... wait till someone proposes this.

I however have 1 candidate they need to start with. Poor guy has been suicidal, homicidal, well armed, drunk, DUI X 5, unlicensed and unemployed for nearly 4 years and worse yet, his wife has just completed a year being unemployed, and she recently got turned down for a McD's job cos she wasn't spanglish speaking. WTF ... America was built by immigrants. True. However all those immigrants didn't all come from 1 country. We got what 80 million mexicans, that should be split to maybe 30-40 countries. What we need to do is have an "Island" category of immigration. The countries that are about to go under water due to sea level rise need to be first pulled out of there. lets see if we cant get a few million people from some of those and they can do the jobs "americans wont do".
BTW that is lie #1 bandied about. "Jobs americans wont do" No such thing. I'd gladly mow the yard of everyone in my street and in fact the whole neighborhood, or even the whole zip code. Somethings the mexicans seem to think they are "entitled" to, cos ever other week someone wants to mow my yard. The problem is $$$ ... I aint mowing someone's yard the size of mine for under 50 bones, it is over 2 hrs work. Its not a question of wont do ... its a question of wont do for $10 an hr.
Cool.
Buddha.
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mister

Quote from: The Buddha on August 10, 2012, 06:38:00 AM

Your ammo is all yours and easily refilled, you only need to keep your shell casings. Is that an extra burden - definetly, however it will make sure only people who are law abiding get more ammo.

Cool.
Buddha.

Um.... you seem to forget what I have pointed out previously....

In Aust you need a Weapons License to buy a firearm (including an airrifle) - and - you also need to show your Weapons License to buy Any kind of Ammo (including a tin of slugs for your airrifle). This is what honest law abiding citizens are required to do. No Weapons License no gun or ammo buying.

YET

The criminals have guns which show no record of having ever entered the country - and - a supply of ammo to shoot through those guns.

Point... requiring an honest law abiding citizen to return empty shell casing to replace with loaded ammo does not stop non law abiding people from having ammo.

ALSO... the bloke in Aust that went on a killing spree in the state of Tasmania... one weapon used was an Armalite M16 (which is a Prohibited Import - not allowed to be brought into the country) and the police can find no trace from any gun store of where the ammo was obtained.

Proving, again, that a person hell bent on killing people with guns will find a way to acquire the guns and the ammo.

You can talking about Planning all you like with regards to other ways to kill people in largish numbers, but it ignores the fact that these supposed spur of the moment shootings are actually planned by the killer as well.

And finally.....



The Swiss population is almost Double the gun ownership numbers.

By contrast, Australia has 20 million people, less than 500,000 have guns, yet we have gun crime problems with one of the toughest gun laws in the modern world. And has been shown, England has a handgun ban but high handgun crime.

Again, Proving, there is no evidence to suggest whatsoever, that restricting guns or ammo has any bearing on those who want to acquire them illegally.

Michael
GS Picture Game - Lists of Completed Challenges & Current Challenge http://tinyurl.com/GS500PictureGame and http://tinyurl.com/GS500PictureGameList2

GS500 Round Aust Relay http://tinyurl.com/GS500RoundAustRelay

codajastal

I am not interested in anything you have to say
Don't bother talking to me, I will not answer you

The Buddha

Australia has guns smuggled in - is that cos the manufacturers are all in the US ?
US doesn't have that particular issue - for now.
We are a net exporter of guns and ammo, most of it into mexico, most of it illegally into mexico after being bought legally in the US. Will the tide reverse - if it gets lucrative to reverse - absolutely, and heck I guess we need that damn border fence 2 X as much now.

Switzerland also has a good social framework as well as a large scale gun training and education system. Everyone has military enlistment and they have gun use and safety training etc etc, see in the us, we cant even get people to see where they are going. They had on trial somene who killed 2 people on the sidewalk cos she was reaching for her cigarettes. Besides that we have illegals, criminals, and increasingly marginalised people with guns.

Much like tiered licensing ... a 16yr old can buy a busa and fly down the road if he has the credit.
Europe very much makes you learn on small bikes before jumping onto a busa. Same with guns. In the US arming everyone will only make the gun crimes 10X or a 100X as much. You'd see kids get a hold of daddy's gun and shoot other kids and various horrible occourances like that. US general populace is careless, undisciplined and rather averse to educating themselves be it bikes or guns. The criminal population is all that plus criminal.

Cool.
Buddha.
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yamahonkawazuki

according to obamas camp we dont have illegals , we have undocumented immigrants. and every way to stop them is shot down by someone. found an easy way to build fence. if they want in, easy way, send em back with a brick and mortar, as they cross, place brick and mortar in place, then get in line. they foem back in legally, as fence is being built
Jan 14 2010 0310 I miss you mom
Vielen dank Patrick. Vielen dank
".
A proud Mormon
"if you come in with the bottom of your cast black,
neither one of us will be happy"- Alan Silverman MD

The Buddha

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on August 10, 2012, 10:29:03 PM
according to obamas camp we dont have illegals , we have undocumented immigrants. and every way to stop them is shot down by someone. found an easy way to build fence. if they want in, easy way, send em back with a brick and mortar, as they cross, place brick and mortar in place, then get in line. they foem back in legally, as fence is being built

Some illegals actually came through legally and just stayed beyond the visa. Fence wont do any good for actually stopping illegals, ron paul's idea is a lot better and cheaper for that. However no guns and ammo came through that way, and will ever come that way. In the context of guns and ammo the fence will be needed, especially when the flow starts to reverse.
Cool.
Buddha.
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Shaddow

I think mister has the best point there. Its not about gun control its about attitude control. Stop trying to band aid the solution with gun control, ammo control,licensing etc. You need to get strong social change. People need to understand they are accountable for their actions whether its shooting a gun, driving a car, smoking around small children or cyber bullying.
Till you change the social aspect gun control is a myth.

Here in Australia the attitude of the people is crap. I know of someone who sold a scope just before that style of scope became illegal to own. Was used on a assault rilfe in a shooting by bikies. He is now charged with supplying weapons. He was a very law abiding citizen who liked target shooting. Yep fairness really makes the population support the acts of government.

Its a whole system change and lets face it, in most western countries it will never happen. EVER.

Civilisation needs to collapse before we can change it. Either way the talk fills the gap.

The Buddha

Quote from: mister on August 10, 2012, 04:03:50 PM


The criminals have guns which show no record of having ever entered the country - and - a supply of ammo to shoot through those guns.


I am a bit slow man, I didn't seem to "get" this ... see in the US not only do we know how the guns were made (cos we made them) we also know how they got to the crime scene, heck we know how some drug related murders in South america and mexico were done - yea using american guns legally bought in america from proper legit gun dealers.
In places with tight gun laws, like NY or DC, they have these things called iron pipes - refers to highways from loose gun states, GA or SC and transported to NY via I 95. That is our idea of gun control, and the bloody thing does not work. Criminals get guns, law loving citizens dont and they're easy pickins.

The uneven gun control laws dont work. Handing everyone a gun also doesn't work, even the biggest gun fans would see the issues with those. I'd suspect we cant ever go to the england level
of gun ownership so documenting bullets is all I can think of in the time we are waiting for the collapse of civilisation.
Cool.
Buddha.
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iclrag

#92
Quote from: The Buddha on July 26, 2012, 07:52:07 AM
OK was the 2nd amendment written as a way to overthrow a tryannical govt ?

Sadly if that is true, its the biggest joke ever perpetrated on the citizenry of any country.
You have assault rifles, as an extreme lets say, you're like I am so cool, I can protect myself against the gubbamint's tyranny and the gubbamint has tanks, air craft and drones and nuclear bombs.

I think sadly the only thing the 2nd amendment does is more colorado, virginia, columbine etc etc.

Seriously I have rifles and wifey got a girl glock, that I traded audio equipment for no less.
I still dont believe I could put a scratch on the tank that rolled through my neighborhood yesterday <- That is a joke.

The 2nd amendment needs to be amended to have people buy tanks and B52 bombers and aircraftcarriers (and no the 100 yr old rust bucket that shows up on fleabay every month doesn't count), and drones to even out the game. And yes they need to be cheap, I want myself a bradley fitted with a LMG turret for starters.

Cool.
Buddha.

I don't know about you, but i can build a drone for about $500 or so. Not to sure about the tank, but we tried to put treads on my friends F250 once (turns out you cant turn with treads :dunno_black:) anyways, we should totally work together and make a turret mounted drone  :icon_lol:

and to quote Jon lajoie
Guns don't kill people, I kill people... With guns. POW

yamahonkawazuki

Jan 14 2010 0310 I miss you mom
Vielen dank Patrick. Vielen dank
".
A proud Mormon
"if you come in with the bottom of your cast black,
neither one of us will be happy"- Alan Silverman MD

iclrag

#94
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on August 13, 2012, 05:19:31 PM
here, have a rat gun


my uncle has about that many guns, my grandpa to! my family has a bit of a gun obsession

I on the other hand, don't own a single gun (yet)

The Buddha

Quote from: iclrag on August 13, 2012, 09:51:35 AM

I don't know about you, but i can build a drone for about $500 or so. Not to sure about the tank, but we tried to put treads on my friends F250 once (turns out you cant turn with treads :dunno_black:) anyways, we should totally work together and make a turret mounted drone  :icon_lol:

and to quote Jon lajoie
Guns don't kill people, I kill people... With guns. POW

Oh what sorta drone ? I meant unmanned aircraft - no way you can make one for under several mill I think.
Cool.
Buddha.
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mister

GS Picture Game - Lists of Completed Challenges & Current Challenge http://tinyurl.com/GS500PictureGame and http://tinyurl.com/GS500PictureGameList2

GS500 Round Aust Relay http://tinyurl.com/GS500RoundAustRelay

yamahonkawazuki

Quote from: iclrag on August 14, 2012, 09:30:10 AM
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on August 13, 2012, 05:19:31 PM
here, have a rat gun

meant the ar50 a1 circled in red
my uncle has about that many guns, my grandpa to! my family has a bit of a gun obsession

I on the other hand, don't own a single gun (yet)
Jan 14 2010 0310 I miss you mom
Vielen dank Patrick. Vielen dank
".
A proud Mormon
"if you come in with the bottom of your cast black,
neither one of us will be happy"- Alan Silverman MD

The Buddha

Quote from: mister on August 07, 2012, 02:09:12 PM
Buddha, you can call it bullet ban all you like and still be like a politician saying "But you can still keep your guns we aren't denying that" but the end result will be the same... the honest law abiding citizen is the one hurt by it.

Apparently there are no handguns in the UK. But handgun crime is rampant.
<snip>

Michael - I keep finding holes in your arguments.

Here it is from the first sentence of wikipaedia -

In the United Kingdom firearms are tightly controlled by law, and there is little political debate and no strong public opposition to control. The United Kingdom historically had one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world even before gun control legislation became stricter from the late twentieth century. [1] In England & Wales in 2009 there were 0.073 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants; for comparison, the figure for the United States was 3.0, about 40 times higher, and for Germany 0.2.[2]

The link is - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

I know the gun ownership rate in the US is about 300 m guns total and its about 150m owners. Essentially 1 per person ... owned by maybe 1/2 the population.

UK is about 1/50th of that. And they have 1/40th the gun crime. Huh, weird its rather close huh.

Cool.
Buddha.
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