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high mileage high efficiency E Tracer

Started by twocool, January 26, 2015, 06:51:48 PM

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twocool



I resurrected this out of the tard farm...because to me it is a very interesting subject ...and I'd like to continue the conversation.

This e tracer production models:   Gas version gets only 50 MPG....Electric version gets 200 MPGe  "equivalent"...


These machines sure have the "cool factor"...and the "techno geek factor"....

and if I were a billionaire I would have a couple of them....

But since I am a "thousandiare"...let's look at the "reality factor"

Since this is the GS500 forum...let's make a comparison...

The expected sticker price for the electric E tracer is a staggering $100,000


OK here we go.....

I'll take that $100,000 and buy a good used GS500....I'll use some of the money to buy enough gas to drive that GS500 for 100,000 miles.. until it croaks...

Then I'll buy another GS500...and buy enough gas to drive that one 100,000 miles until it croaks...

then I'll buy another...and another and another and drive each one to 100,000 miles until it croaks....

I'll do that ten times!  Ten GS500... all driven 100,000 miles each....

So over 1 million miles!


Guess what....I'd still have enough money left over to buy enough gas to go another 1 million miles!!!

Does that put things into perspective?

Just sayin'... :whisper:



Cookie







eco.USA wrote:
Wait a minute!!  I worked on the Paraves motorcycle team X-PRIZE competition for MPG in 2010.  That streamlined L-ION powered E-TRACER motorcycle got the equivalent of 190 MPG @ 45 MPH and goes 150 MPH.  It won 2.5 million dollars for tops in it's class (Tandem).  Zero to sixty in less than 4 seconds too.

So while 150 MPG and MPH seems out there, it is being done!!  And then some.  I have pictures but can't find them now.

Old Mechanic

I liked the e-tracer. I liked this better.
capacitive hydraulic regeneration
pulse and glide while at a constant speed (outlawed by the x prize rules) 

US#7677208

regards
mech

twocool

Ok...trying to understand your concept...not much on the internet...except some posts by you!

Woul dlike a schematic concept drawing...

Let me say how I THINK it works...then you correct me where I'm wrong...

The vehicle is powered by hydraulic motor(s) at the wheels

The hydraulic motors are fed from  hydraulic accumulator(s)...

The hydraulic accumulators are "recharged" by some power source...Say gasoline engine?

The gasoline engine is set to only run at optimum parameters (RPM, torque, etc)

The gasoline engine either runs at optimum...or is is shut off...

The vehicle accelerates to optimum speed...then never changes speed...

The pulse and glide has to do with the engine's recharging of the accumulator(s)..not pulse and glide like some hyper milers do, by accelerating the whole vehicle up to 45 MPH and then "gliding" (engine off in neutral) until the vehicle slows to 35 MPH and then accelerating again...

How close am I so far??


Cookie



Quote from: Old Mechanic on January 27, 2015, 07:02:45 AM
I liked the e-tracer. I liked this better.
capacitive hydraulic regeneration
pulse and glide while at a constant speed (outlawed by the x prize rules) 

US#7677208

regards
mech

Old Mechanic

The linked patent gives plenty of drawings.

Basically you have it right, just substitite any motor or engine and any fuel as the accumulator pressure restoration device.

Think of vehicle operation as anenergy consumption line with positive and negative aswell as neutral operation.

1. acceleration, capacitive storage allows for severe rates of acceleration,with the only limiting factor being traction.
Think of a catapult.

2. braking, now you use the energy of the vehicles inertia to convert to hyrdraulic pressure,recharging your "catapult" for the next acceleration event.

3. coasting, needs neither power or regeneration basically drive disengaged and freewheeling.

4. constant speed, power only consumed when pressure level drops to predetermined level, then pressure generated at highest efficiency regardlessof vehicle speed.

5. deceleration utilizing engine drag, regenerates energy much the same as braking.

Now your power consumption graph has no negative values (normally braking or engine drag deceleration), only steps with braking and energy consuming pressurization of the accumulator. The braking uses no fuel.

Could be electric, diesel, gas,or anyother combustible fuel source.

regards
mech

Old Mechanic

100k e tracer, versus a small sedan with 35% fewer manufactured parts than any other inexpensive small sedan.
cheaper to manufacture  than the vehicle it replaces @$10k

No flywheel, clutch, transmission, differential, prop shafts, brakes.
No throttle control of the engine or restriction of intake air nor any of the parts normally needed, all engine on operation is wot.

If configured as an electric vehicle there is no need to control the current to the drive motor, jsut an on-off switch for accumulator recharging.

accumulators could be configured as cross smembers for  suspension location to reduce overall vehicle weight.

drive can be used in any wheeled powered vehicle.

No idling which consumes 13%of all the motor vehicle fuel used in the US and close to the same planetarily.

twocool

I couldn't link to the patent....

One of the big advantages I see in your system, is that the vehicle speed remains constant, or fairly constant....

With the hyper milers doing their version of pulse and coast, the vehicle is accelerating or decelerating all the time...to me this means waste...

A few years back I worked on some projects for the US Army...part of our work involved Army trucks, which at that time were powered by 2 stroke diesels...

We were privy to some of the "truck of the future" designs the Army was working on..

One concept was an diesel/electric hybrid....not too different from your concept...

The way it worked, was there would be a relatively small diesel engine mounted on the truck...this engine would run at only one optimal speed, and its only job was to charge batteries....each wheel of the truck would have its own electric motor....running from the batteries....(accumulators)

I'm not sure economy was a goal...but many advantages to this system....it would be "all wheel drive"...with computer controlling all traction and braking on each wheel independently...

There was essentially NO drive train...so simple... with great ground clearance..

Most importantly...if part of the truck got blown up....the remaining motors on the remaining wheels would still work and provide power and mobility....

Essentially this is the same as your system but substitute electric motors where you have hydraulic...and batteries as "accumulators"

Another part of this deal was to have ALL military vehicles run on the exact same fuel...basically jet fuel....so you don't need to stock pile gasoline for some trucks...diesel fuel for others, jet fuel for planes etc...

Of course diesel/ electric train locomotives sort of work this way...also WWII submarines....


Cookie


Quote from: Old Mechanic on January 28, 2015, 03:43:42 PM
The linked patent gives plenty of drawings.

Basically you have it right, just substitite any motor or engine and any fuel as the accumulator pressure restoration device.

Think of vehicle operation as anenergy consumption line with positive and negative aswell as neutral operation.

1. acceleration, capacitive storage allows for severe rates of acceleration,with the only limiting factor being traction.
Think of a catapult.

2. braking, now you use the energy of the vehicles inertia to convert to hyrdraulic pressure,recharging your "catapult" for the next acceleration event.

3. coasting, needs neither power or regeneration basically drive disengaged and freewheeling.

4. constant speed, power only consumed when pressure level drops to predetermined level, then pressure generated at highest efficiency regardlessof vehicle speed.

5. deceleration utilizing engine drag, regenerates energy much the same as braking.

Now your power consumption graph has no negative values (normally braking or engine drag deceleration), only steps with braking and energy consuming pressurization of the accumulator. The braking uses no fuel.

Could be electric, diesel, gas,or anyother combustible fuel source.

regards
mech

Old Mechanic

just google (or your preferred search engine)

US # 7677208
or
US patent # 7677208

Basically the army design was similar but the stepsin energy conversion kill the efficiency. wheel to wheel efficiency in gas electric hybrids  from regeneration isless than 33%. ten years ago, hydraulic hybrids were at 78%.

regards
mech

twocool

Well, I don't think fuel economy was the #1 concern of the Army...

But I wonder about the same thing in your design...you've got a few energy conversions in there...

If you start with a gasoline engine you're at what 25% efficiency right there..lots lost to heat...

Diesel is about 40%

Pure plug in electrics, I think, pad the books a little when they talk efficiency...They often don't figure in the energy loss just in making electricity at the power plant, and then transmission losses...then charging losses, etc..

Cookie


Basically the army design was similar but the stepsin energy conversion kill the efficiency. wheel to wheel efficiency in gas electric hybrids  from regeneration isless than 33%. ten years ago, hydraulic hybrids were at 78%.

regards
mech
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