I don't know what it is (maybe the fact that I'm a rookie) but I'd rather take a corner at a slower speed then a more aggressive lean angle, but I fell like I'm cheating myself out of some fun. So how far can I lean before I eat it?
Trust me, you'll get there! Do what you are comfortable with and it will creep up on you. If you are realy concerned about technique practice practice practice but best of all get a couple of lessons or a course if you don't have anyone around who can show you. If you have buddies with bikes and you go for a "rideout" don't get competetive until you get competent.
Yeah its natural to want to take turns at a slower speed. I think you'd be cheating yourself more by moving too fast and getting yourself in over your head.
How many miles do you have on the bike? I have close to 4,000 on mine and I can still say there are corners I know I could go faster on, but just don't.
To judge how far you can lean requires practice. Eventually (I'd say at least 1,000-1,500 miles) when you are leaning you'lll feel the tires starting to slip. This is a sign you are approaching the limit on your tire. Another way to tell is by looking at your back tire when stopped. You can see where the edges are shiny.
Hope that helps, also there are books out there (yeah like reading books) That I found really helped. A Twist of the Wrist is a good one
Organ, go out somewhere safe, like a private parking lot or something similar and keep turning at higher lean angles at different speeds. You will soon get a picture in your mind of the lean angle needed to make a turn of specific radius at a particular speed. Or if you have some favorite backroads you know of that are pretty much traffic free you can run back and forth on familiar curves, taking the turns at different speeds and so on...you don't have to run at illegal speeds to do this...until you get a feel for how the bike handles at high lean angles. The GS500 is a corner-happy little bike...at least compared to an old Sportster or Electraglide. :) Love this little bike and this forum.
Yeah I guess i'll just have to learn.
Gitarman: I have a little over 2000 miles on my bottle rocket
My bike has 480 miles on it and I'm really comfortable. I know you are going to say I'm just a rookie and I shouldn't be riding agressively but I looked at my tires and I have about an inch of unridden tire on the sides. I get scared leaning because I think I'm going to hit my footpegs on the ground and wipe. I'm not scared about simply falling. I'm going to have to lean the bike on it's side to see how far it can lean before it hits the pegs on the ground. I also ride with my foot under the shifter a lot and I always get scared thinking I'm going to crush my foot under it on left turns. The GS is definately fun in the turns but I would feel more comfortable with wider tires. It doens't exactly have the wiedest tires Ive seen on a motorcycle.
Also a trick I noticed in corners. If your leaning and feel shaky or like your swinging to the outside of the corner a little then just give it more gas and lean into it. The bike really holds the corner well doing this or atleast I have noticed this. It's kind of like a rear wheel drive car. You want to power through the corner not get off the gas like FWD. Also I don't do this at excessive speeds. This works with normal speed limits.
Don't take this the wrong way but:
<LECTURE TIME AGAIN!!!>
Ride with the front of your foot on the peg. You don't shift mid corner, and you can shift your weight better than if you were on your heels. You won't crush your toes if you touch them down, but the first time you drag your shoe like that it could spook you, make you lose concentration and stand the bike up.
The 110/130 is more than enough tire for the GS at anything but a race pace or you weight 300+ lbs.
If you have an inch of "chicken strip" on your tires, you are a long way from grounding out the pegs or pipe on your GS.
That being said, don't be in a hurry to find the outer limits of the GS's performance envelope, especally on the street. Its not worth the risks. Even on my very capable YZF when I'm feeling frisky (ie: squidy and dumb) I only go at 3/4ths what I feel the bike is capable off. Ther are just too many variables that are beyond your control (oil, gravel, deer, etc).
Your ability to ride faster will come with experiance. And that experiance will see you thru the turn, even if you get in too hot.
If you haven't taken the MSF course, seriously consider doing it. It will greatly help you master the basics, and learn the best way to ride a bike.
If you are past that, there are track schools (NOT race schools) that you can attend that will teach you alot more than a hundred hours of turning circles and figure 8s in an empty parking lot by yourself. Besides the fact that it is safer, you will have experianced riders there to coach and advise your riding.
Eventually if you find yourself dragging parts or your knee around intersections or out on the road, you should consider starting to do track days. Spend 8 hours going balls to the walls will beat any desire you have for riding "fast" on the street out of you.
:mrgreen:
</RAMBLING LECTURE>
don't stress out, it will come. you need to go out and practice some stuff in an empty lot - stuff like emergency stoping (both straight and turn), dodging, or u-turns.
on the other hand, stuff like leaning into corners you don't really need to "practice" unless you want to compete or something. i bought my bike in october, and rode very sparing during the winter. at that time, corners were very difficult for me. however, when the weather got better and i started commuting (riding every day for a couple of hours), i, very quickly, got much better at turning.
i guess what i'm trying to say is that some stuff you need to practice. other stuff will just come to you as you put on more miles and get used to the bike and riding in general
~2c
after riding the very quick 2 stroke rs 125 for 2 years, i found that getting my knee down was as easy as starting the bike.
but now i have the gs i feel that its not a knee down action race bike, if that the fun you want thenreally you should have got the gsx-600-r or an older gsx-400-r.
i have on a few occassions found my shoo slider scraping on the floor, but i realise that the foot pegs are to big and to low for this type of fun,
i have about 1/3rd of a ince left on my tyres of unused rubber, ...... i think it will stay like that too.
all i am saying is that, the 'commuter bike' as it is classed as isnt factory designed to get your knee down, yo need a differant radial tyre, new rear sets etc etc etc....
remember yo can hame MORE then enough fun on a GS without thinking your valentino rossi on every corner
Well I did take the the MSF class. I guess what I really want to know is what will happen first, draging the footpeg or loosing the rear tire?
Quote from: Organ DonorWell I did take the the MSF class. I guess what I really want to know is what will happen first, draging the footpeg or loosing the rear tire?
Loosing the rear :p
I always tell my friends and family when they start riding one thing. Don't lean the bike, turn the bike. You don't have to lean HARD to turn it.
I had about an inch of unused side rubber on the back and half an inch on the front, but after doing Angeles Crest I now have about half and inch on the back and a quarter of an inch on the front and i know there is quite a bit more I could go.
The following does not mean I encourage you to try this, just trying to show some that don't understand how it works:
(http://members.aol.com/PhysicsDad/calcphys/steer.gif)
When leaning the bike, gravity (mg) wants to pull you onto your side. Because you're obviously turning whilst leaning, the centripetal force (f) is pulling your tires into or towards that lean proportionally to your speed. This counters the effects of gravity pulling you down (keeping you up, and alive). Therefore, the faster you go, the harder you'll lean, and the sharper you'll corner.
Hope that was clear.
I agree, it will come to the new riders. I have about 1/16th of an inch left on the side of my rear tire. I want to go further, but i can feel the tires about to give out on me. But this is where the fun is, IMO.
Quote from: TOMIMOTOThe GS is definately fun in the turns but I would feel more comfortable with wider tires. It doens't exactly have the wiedest tires Ive seen on a motorcycle.
wider tires are mainly good in the rear for acceleration. actually, having a wider tire can make you have to lean further for a given turn.
i don't recall the physics precisely, but it's explained in
Motorcycle Design And Technology.
cheers,
will
I'm fairly new at this (1000 miles) and I've started to get alot more comfortable with what the bike can and can't do. Today I went for a long road with sweeping turns, nothing that I would consider twisty or even sharp if I was driving a car. Most of the way down this highway I was doing 70-80 indicated MPH, and had no problems in the turns. I did notice however during a couple of the "sharper" turns, that the front tire would slip out (at 50-60MPH on less sharp, 40-50 on sharper corners) as I was entering the corner. I haven't had any problem with the rear tire slipping, but that during these corners it almost feels like the wind is pushing my front tire towards the outside of the turn. It's a really unnatural feeling for someone that has driven and raced cars all his life. When a car is tight in a corner it just stops turning, and drifts to the outside. The bike gets tight in the corner, and doesn't just drift, the front tire slips.
My question is...am I not leaning enough? Am I overpowering or underpowering into the corner? Is it all in my head? For reference, I didn't shift my butt of the seat, I kept my legs firm against the bike, and my body was in a moderate lean over the gas tank.
One more question, is the tendency to slip something I'll have to deal with until the edges of the tires are worn? In other words, do I have to lean more and take some sharper corners at lower speeds before my tires will grip properly in a higher speed turn?
Did you countersteer as you got deeper into the turn. :dunno_white:
I was under the impression that countersteering was to initiate the turn and then use your body weight the rest of the way through....I didn't want to countersteer and make a slipping tire slip more. I dont know :o I'm at the point where I've practiced all the normal day to day driving, and now I want to get better so that if I take a trip, I'll know that I can handle whatever roads I encounter. Idaho doesn't have a track, and I dont want to get into the twisty mountains north of here until I can take a normal 65MPH turn at 65MPH.
Your tires should not be slipping like that unless you were going to slow for the amount of lean you gave the bike. You didnt put any thing like "black magic" on the tires did you. :thumb:
If you haven't scrubbed in the front tire to within a half inch of the edge, then yes, it might be that it needs to be scrubbed in a little (sandpaper, and I mean just a little).
If you're entering the turn on the gas (not even rolling off, or braking), then the front end could be light.
Could be a few ways to fix this:
Lean forward more. This puts more weight over the front tire, hopefully planting it more.
Lean your upper body into the turn. Hands on practice time! Everybody go out and sit on your bike. Lean towards a mirror, without sliding your butt off the seat. Grip the tank with your knees if you have to, to keep yourself from sliding off the seat (you're not supposed to use ArmorAll :nono: ) Flex your back to 'suspend' your upper body; like a string is attached to the nape of your neck, pulling upward. This should be your body position. This biases the weight over the front tire and lowers your center of gravity to the inside of the tire patch.
Suspension set-up: www.peterverdonedesigns.com/introduction.htm
Lower the front end/raise the rear/add more preload to the rear. Biases the bike's weight forward hopefully planting the front end more.
There it is gospel :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Quote from: JasonD on May 10, 2006, 04:00:52 PM
I was under the impression that countersteering was to initiate the turn...
True, and it can be used to make mid-corner corrections (minute inputs to not upset the bike).
Quote from: JasonD on May 10, 2006, 04:00:52 PM...and then use your body weight the rest of the way through.
Correct. Additionally, using your outside knee to "steer" the bike (with minute body adjustments, again, not to upset the bike)
Quote from: JasonD on May 10, 2006, 04:00:52 PMI didn't want to countersteer and make a slipping tire slip more.
You have learned well, grasshopper...you want to have all your major steering inputs done at the begining of the turn, and be at the proper lean angle for the turn, again, so as not to upset the bike and compromise traction (and lap time).
Sandpaper your tires? Are you kidding me? Don't do it!!! Day to day riding will more than take any coating off of them.
As for Idaho guy, pratice initiating all turns by countersteering into them. It is the fastest way to get the bike to start turning. The faster you go, the better it works. About the pegs dragging, they will start folding up when you touch down, ride with the balls of your feet on the pegs. Get out and practice. There is no substitute for seat time. Borrow someones dirt bike and get a feel for when the tires start sliding. Do it enough and you will start to enjoy sliding around on the street. I know that I do!!!
I just saw your post about the front slipping. I think if it was actually slipping, it would have dumped you on your head. When the front goes, it usually happens pretty quick. One thing a long time racer told me years ago was to keep your elbows up, ride in attack position, always attack the road. Don't just putt along, spacing out. Don't relax too much and enjoy the scenery. That will be when you crash. I don't mean hauling ass, racing along. I mean extreme focus, scanning with your eyes, feeling for traction, trying to notice everything. These things will come after a long time on two wheels, but if some one teaches you early on, maybe they will come sooner.
Quote from: dwn4whadever on May 10, 2006, 03:51:53 PM
Did you countersteer as you got deeper into the turn. :dunno_white:
If you are countersteering as you get deeper into a turn, you're either going too fast for the turn or the turn is a decreasing radius turn. This is assuming proper throttle control (rolling on smoothly, gently, minutely, all the way through the turn (your hand should turn as slowly as the big hand of a clock)).
k So I got a question. I know what the MSF taught me about leaning harder if I'm not gonna make the turn but that seems to be only practical in ideal road situations. Where I live, the roads are sh!%. They're poorly patched and very uneven. Taking turns can be very bumpy. Plus the white spots (to mark the crosswalks) make the surface even more uneven. I force myself to take the turns slow because I feel if I lean into them hard and go fast the rear wheel will skip and hop and I will lose traction and low side. I'm just looking for guidance, experience, and what you guys think. :thumb:
Quote from: proudlom on August 18, 2004, 01:05:01 PM
The following does not mean I encourage you to try this, just trying to show some that don't understand how it works:
(http://members.aol.com/PhysicsDad/calcphys/steer.gif)
When leaning the bike, gravity (mg) wants to pull you onto your side. Because you're obviously turning whilst leaning, the centripetal force (f) is pulling your tires into or towards that lean proportionally to your speed. This counters the effects of gravity pulling you down (keeping you up, and alive). Therefore, the faster you go, the harder you'll lean, and the sharper you'll corner.
Hope that was clear.
Ok so I've always wondered why the MSF said braking in corner will make you lowslide. Can you explain it?
Quote from: tussey on May 10, 2006, 04:57:07 PM
k So I got a question. I know what the MSF taught me about leaning harder if I'm not gonna make the turn but that seems to be only practical in ideal road situations. Where I live, the roads are sh!%. They're poorly patched and very uneven. Taking turns can be very bumpy. Plus the white spots (to mark the crosswalks) make the surface even more uneven. I force myself to take the turns slow because I feel if I lean into them hard and go fast the rear wheel will skip and hop and I will lose traction and low side. I'm just looking for guidance, experience, and what you guys think. :thumb:
Some of the roads near me aren't very good, and I usually slow down and take them nice and slow. When i drive my car, i make a note on how quickly i am going around said corners.
I have found that on the bike, even when i think i am going slow (in relation to the speed limit) around a corner, i actually take them slower in the car, so i have no issues with slowing down even more on the bike to keep safe.
I'm not saying stare at your speedo though the turn, though, make a quick glance maybe and compare it to when you're driving you car.. your 'slow' may not be as slow as you think it is.
I got out into the twisties today and I didn't notice any slippage like before. I've still got an inch of chicken strip on the back tire and h 3/4 inch on the front tire. I onlyhad two reoccuring problems today. One is that I've got a bad habit of braking into the corner, then getting on the gas at the apex, which is the best technique in a car, but I've heard that you'll wreck if you brake too hard into a corner on a bike. So I worked on that a bit. My second problem is that even though I know the bike won't have any problem, instead of leaning harder when I get in a turn a little too quick, I put on the brakes, and scare the hell out of myself. It just feels weird when I lean too far over. I can'ttalk my brain into letting me go that far. Oh, and I have a bad habit of entering the turn too quick and running over the apex.
Anyone out there wanna address some of these?
I frequent the large industrial parking lots at least once a week usually to practice cornering. I usually rip around the parking lots just in 1st gear and practice cornering and slow speed stuff.
Quote from: JasonD on May 20, 2006, 03:24:45 PM
Anyone out there wanna address some of these?
The problems you describe are typical on the sportriding learning curve. (1) Fast on the straights then
stopping in the corners (squid!)....(2) running over the apex (sometimes that's the fastest way :) )...(3) can't scrub the
chicken strips. Also, braking while leaned over does eat into the available traction.
To overcome the (2) tendency you need to wait for the apex then
flick it over quicker via countersteering. Basically, you are afraid of running out of road so you try to rush the turn too early.
Now, to get
yourself to lean the bike to the max you need to do two things: Focus on loosening your
deathgrip on the bars. And, you must turn your head and look into the turn. Those are the keys.
Well, they were resurfacing Lakeshore Drive last time I was in your neck.... I hope they didn't take out all the good kinks. ;)
If you're talking about lakeshore drive by Lake Lowell, it's still decent. That's the first place I went to practice cornering, but almost got run over by a tractor trailer. Thanks for the advice. Where are you from Gisser?
I have about 1.5 inch unused (totaly unused with rubber needles still sticking out) front tire. I dont need that patch for normal riding but, in critical situation if i lean far and start using that unused patch, i am afraid that it will fail to hold traction. Should i sand paper it so it would be ready for that critical moment?
I wouldn't if i were you id take the bike up some twisties and practice leaning into the corners till you can reduce the unused area of your tire. This helps you in two ways, one it will scratch in the tire which will be good and two, it will get you used to leaning at that angle for when you might need to in a critical situation. Just sandpapering the tire might make it get abit more traction the first time you use it, but if you have never had experience leaning that far the shock in a critical situation might cause you to lose it anyway. Breaking the tire in yourself will build your skill level.
Low speed parking lot maneuvers are a real good way to scrub in those. Feathering the clutch, feeling for the friction zone (where the clutch just begins to grab; keep the throttle up to 4000rpm, and just use the clutch to "feed in" the power), counter lean your body to the outside of the turn (actually get your butt off the seat in that direction; one cheek), spin your head around in the direction you want to go, and turn. This works for u-turns. Look where you want to go.
Quote from: JasonD on May 20, 2006, 03:24:45 PM
I got out into the twisties today and I didn't notice any slippage like before.
Good!
Quote from: JasonD on May 20, 2006, 03:24:45 PM
I've still got an inch of chicken strip on the back tire and h 3/4 inch on the front tire.
Don't worry about this. Some fast riders have plenty of chicken strip, they just use less tire. It depends on your riding style, and remember alot of us can't get the last 1/2 inch of rear tire.
Quote from: JasonD on May 20, 2006, 03:24:45 PM
I only had two reoccuring problems today. One is that I've got a bad habit of braking into the corner, then getting on the gas at the apex, which is the best technique in a car, but I've heard that you'll wreck if you brake too hard into a corner on a bike.
Yes. You're using up too much traction in braking. It's upsetting the bike, causing it to want to stand up and steer straight to the outside of the turn. Stop that. Here's how:
Set-up for the turn - set your entry speed early, get all your braking and downshifting done before entering the turn, while you're still verticle. So actually what you're doing is braking and downshifting
to your entry speed. Set the speed slower than you would normally. Once you have safely negotiated the turn at that speed, then you can decide wheather or not you can take that turn faster
the next time.
Also, at the same time you're picking your turn-in point (and your line through the turn). Your turn-in point should start at the outside of the turn (not over the double yellow :nono: ), as deep into the turn as you can see. This gives you a good view as to where you're going to end up, since you should be looking where you want to go. You already know where your apex is, or should be, as you should be late-apexing, to straighten out the turn and minimize your time leaned over. This also helps set you up for the next turn.
And, it allows you time to get your body into the correct position: pinch the tank, get your weight off the bars, do the funky chicken (flap your elbows).
Look through the turn - Use your peripheral vision to execute the turn. You've already picked your turn-in point, but now you should be looking through the turn to where you want to go.
Turn - countersteer to achive your desired lean angle (you're still looking through the turn).
Roll-on - add throttle. Gradually increasing it through the turn. You only need 5hp to get through a turn (this is another reason why small bikes can go through turns so quickly, but that's another thread).
Quote from: JasonD on May 20, 2006, 03:24:45 PM
My second problem is that even though I know the bike won't have any problem, instead of leaning harder when I get in a turn a little too quick, I put on the brakes, and scare the hell out of myself.
See above.