A couple of months ago I made note here of a Edmonton motorcyclist who died on the city streets going too fast. I did not know his name. Tuesday another motorcyclist died. I heard his name on the news last night - this fellow rider I knew.
He was the 19 year old kid that I bought my GS from 6 months ago. I met Cody Olmstead a couple of times in the sales transaction. I liked the guy, he was a good kid. His father, a retired Edmonton police officer, and mother are also motorcyclists. His dad told me that he wished Cody would keep the GS500 for another year before getting the 600 gixxer but he was old enough to make his own decisions.
The driver said he did not see him. Witnesses say his bike slid about two blocks past the accident site and that he was going too fast. It appears that he laid the bike down trying to avoid the car. Cody died after being run over by the back wheels of the car making a left turn in front of him.
The police said in an interview that 'motorcyclists never learn - speed kills'
Just two days later (last night) another motorcyclist riding the same stretch of road ended up in hospital with severe leg and head injuries. He was going to fast to avoid an SUV that pulled out in front of him from a mall parking lot.
There are more motorcyclist on the roads these days - that's great, but there are more and more reports of deaths and injuries too. This year has been the worst in Edmonton for deaths from motorcycle accidents; 7 now I believe.
It has been said so many times but be careful and slow down! Tomorrow should be another day to ride. Don't make the headlines.
Rest in peace Cody.
:(
Dandy D
I'm sorry to hear about the passing of another motorcyclist at the "hands" of an automobile driver. In my most recent wreck(van turned in front of me and totaled my bike), I maintained maximum non-lockup braking and went straight into the side of the van. I had slowed drastically and the crumpling front end assisted in my walking away from it. Since it was a van, I didn't fly over it. This was no doubt a good thing also. Nonetheless, I have to wonder if the riders that drop and slide wouldn't have been better off to brake hard and stay aboard. It may be that braking straight into the vehicle was their intent, and lack of skill resulted in the slide. :dunno: I did however have people ask why I didn't just dump the bike and slide. I didn't consider sliding down the road an option since I've done that before and didn't like it at all.
i've slid down the road myself once, and i didn't find it too unberable. rashed up my knee and ripped my coat, that's about it. i had full gear on though. i'd have to agree with Ed here though, going straight into a car is in my opinion better than laying it down and going in the car. laying it down, you're setting yourself up for getting run over, like this unfortunate kid. going straight into it, yeah, it'll hurt, but hopefully you won't slide under a wheel. keep it safe out there guys, even you Ed.
Yes I too am sorry to hear the passing of a fellow Motorcyclist
Looks like driver overconfidence may have been a factor as he didn't have enough room to stop.
I too have had a close call. Similar to the Van. My bike did make contact with the vehicle [who pulled out infront of me and then decided to stop and watch me piss my pants for a lack ot better word] My bike did not hit the ground and it was moreover a "love tap". There was more paperwork than damage but n-e-ways I didn't even think about laying it down just progressivly clamping down on the front brake and bracing for impact. I guess it comes back from my MT. biking days where endos were cool and you couldn't bail out. If I had laided the bike down it would have been totaled and the car would have substained alot more damage.
SO remember Give your self Space and then 2x it
I agree. Brakes are the way to slow down, not sliding on pavement. I have flown over a car once and landed on my hands and feet(a miracle), but what you hit AFTER the car, if you're launched, is then of course out of your control. Sheet metal has some give, glass will crush, but I sure wouldn't want to get run over. Take care out there bikers. Through their inattention, they are out to get us.
No offense about the miracle thing, but they do happen.
QuoteHe was going to fast to avoid an SUV that pulled out in front of him from a mall parking lot
No offense, but often times the legal limit is too fast to avoid an SUV pulling out in front of you.
Also, why was the Motorcyclist (person) going too fast whereas the SUV (machine) pulled out? Wasn't there a driver? I'm sick of this garbage where the damn SUV is responsible not the moron driving it. It should say F. K. Wadd pulled out and performed an illegal left turn in front of him, which is the REAL cause of the accident.
Peace be with with Cody and his family.
Juno, I do not know the full details of the second crash but I believe the SUV driver pulled out making a right turn into the same lane as the rider going in the same direction (there were 2 lanes in that direction). The driver undoubtedly did not see him. But why not - that's the question.
We have to keep in mind - bikes are smaller and quicker thus making them harder to see in traffic especially at night, like in this crash, which should make being seen one of our biggest priorities.
Ride safe,
Dandy D.
I always ride with my high beams on day and night. If the other drivers get pissed off then oh well atleast they know I'm there.
This really stinks though. It seems like someone dies every day on a motorcycle especially this previous summer. 50% of the time it's not even their fault.
i lost a good friend on the 21st of september when a mini van turned left in front of my friends bike...the driver got charged with a $110 ticket for killing a inoscent motorcyclist :roll:
RIP Cody.
(A fellow GS'r nonetheless!)
Dandy D--I wasn't criticising the way you wrote the story, but rather the fact that the media tends to refer to SUV incidents as if the vehicle acted by itself.
Just wanted to clear that up.
What we do is dangerous. There is no getting around that. Riding a cage is much, MUCH, *MUCH* safer. We all choose to take the road less traveled. Whether you fess up to it or not, you accept the risk for yourself and the significant others in your life.
I never talked about it before. There was an MSF instructor killed in Raleigh in a collision with a UPS truck in August. He was my instructor in 1991 when I took the ERC. I've been off two wheelers since 1993
It is a tragedy every time a rider goes down. I've lost friends in motorcycle crashes. My sister rides so does her significant other. My nephew(her son) rides(a Yamahamer 1700CC with NOS, Lord please save him from himself), I ride(a very quick bike). My wife hates that I ride and won't let my son ride with me. She knows that it's dangerous.
I also compete in high energy shooting sports, and I load my own ammunition. I also jump out of perfectly good aircraft flying 2 miles above the earth with 2 lbs of silk strapped to my back. Those activities are potentially dangerous. Someone is injured or killed daily in one of those activities.
Pretty bleak picture isn't it.
Check this out, I talked to multiple insurance companies when I was thinking about riding again. None of them consider Motorcycling, shooting, or skydiving high risk activities. Scuba diving below 80 feet, flying a private aircraft, those are "high-risk" activities.
I take motorcycle training every other year. I wear the best gear I can afford. I look at least 10 seconds ahead at the speed I travel. Always!
I don't ride at the edge of my envelope on roads. I don't ride when there's alcohol in my system. Ever!
Am I safe? Hell NO! There is nothing I can do to make this hobby safe. NOPE! It isn't possible. I accept the risk with my eyes wide open. I've made arrangements for the financial wellbeing of my family if I become roadkill. My wife will meet her next husband on the Riviera. Most people don't ever even think about it.
My nephew runs open pipes and no ear protection. I hope that he realizes his mistake before he does himself or anyone else permanent damage.
I've seen several threads on this, seems like one every other week. I reached overload and had to vent. Please forgive me if I've done it inappropriately.
Moderators?!?!? Notify me if I need to take this down.
Sorry to hear about Cody. May he truly rest in peace.
Now on a related topic....braking is much better than sliding any day of the week. Even if you make impact your chances are better for several reasons. Secondly...just about every other time i hear about someone getting killed on a bike in this city it seems to be on a Gixxer. And most of the time it was either a first or too quickly the second bike owned. Just today i had 2 people cut in front of me in city highway traffic. One was a small car that noticed me almost as soon as they cut me off...the second was a van who's driver never saw me. In both instances i was keeping up with traffic which was moving rather quickly but i also maintained a safe enough distance to respond....and i used my brakes. I was gonna go out for a ride tonite but after this topic....i'm done for the day.
with much respect to charley, I have to disagree on some of the sentiment of his message...
I ride 2200 miles per month, this is NOT a hobby, it is my method of transportation, it's a legal one, and other drivers need to realize that.
I don't ride beyond my limits, I scan ahead, I pay attention to idiots around me, but I don't feel that I should have to plan for my early death due to some jerk that doesn't pay attention to his surroundings, just because he feels safe with his side curtain airbags and his 155 inch wheelbase, gas guzzling suv with crumple zones the size of Kansas.
I feel people should be held criminally liable for their driving skills. "I didn't see him" doesn't cut it.
at night, a car with one burnt out headlight looks no different than a motorcyclist, yet everyone can see that light! funny, huh? During the day, my silohuette(sp?) is 4 or 5 times larger than that of a small child in the roadway, or a stray dog, etc, yet somehow I'm INVISIBLE? I don't think so. The 'I didn't see him' excuse is just plain that, a "get out of manslaughter charge for free" EXCUSE
when our judiciary system starts prosecuting and imprisoning people for killing other motorists, irregardless of their method of transportation, then you will see other people starting to watch out for motorcyclists, along with bicyclists, small children on tricycles, whatever. JUST LIKE THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING ALL ALONG!!!
In the meantime, obviously, obey all traffic laws, just like I'm SURE all those 'cagers' are doing... :bs: , and wear all the safety equipment you can, I do, every day... (no side curtain airbags available yet, but give it time...lol)
Quote from: Ed_in_AzI agree. Brakes are the way to slow down, not sliding on pavement.
Metal and plastic sliding on the ground dont even begin to slow you down as much as tires, even skidding tires. I think its rediculous to "lay it down". That's like giving up. If it ever happens to me I intend to stay on the bike until I hit something...
Quote from: cummuterguyI don't feel that I should have to plan for my early death due to some jerk that doesn't pay attention to his surroundings, just because he feels safe with his side curtain airbags and his 155 inch wheelbase, gas guzzling suv with crumple zones the size of Kansas.
I think
charleym3 would agree that you shouldn't get hit by SUV drivers. I think his point was:
1) The guy in the SUV doesn't just
think he's safe; he really
IS safe. At least, he's a LOT safer than we are on two wheels.
2) Even though the SUV driver
shouldn't hit you doesn't mean he
won't. If there are people who depend on you to provide for them it's a darn good idea to "plan for your early death" whether you ride or not. Choosing to (or being forced to?) ride makes it even more important to have as much life insurance as you can reasonably afford. It may not send your loved one(s) to the Riviera, but hopefully it will keep a roof over their head and food on the table.
3) I didn't get the impression that Charley's (single) use of the word "hobby" was meant to belittle riding in any way. In fact, the rest of his post showed that he takes riding VERY seriously. Just because one uses a motorcycle as their only (and legal!) mode of transportation doesn't make them immune to hazards on the road.
4) Riding is dangerous. Period. Along with "planning for early death" we should do our absolute best to reduce the chances of it happening. That means reading, practicing, never taking the ride for granted, maintaining the bike, etc. I think too many of us hear stories about the demon SUV, use the info to justify our increasing contempt for cagers, and stop there. What we SHOULD do is skip the useless value judgement and let the information motivate us -- to hone our accident prevention strategies, practice for the (almost) inevitable "incident", and look for ways to constantly improve. Isn't that what we're expecting of the SUV driver, even though they might have plenty of reasons to hold "us" in contempt -- what with wild street antics, loud pipes and so on?
(Striking out on my own now)5) SUVs are just as legal as our vehicles, and more common. Which is easier - for an SUV driver to see a motorcycle, or for a motorcycle rider to see an SUV? Who can (rather,
should be able to) stop faster? It's not always ALL their fault.
6) Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that we should roll over and let irresponsible/dangerous drivers get away with it. I don't disagree that "people should be held criminally liable for their driving skills" and that " 'I didn't see him' doesn't cut it". I'm saying that we need to face up to the facts that we ARE less visible than we'd like to be, and become serious about not "letting them get us" in the first place. Putting an offending driver behind bars for a deserved conviction of manslaughter loses its savor when WE'RE the ones that put them there by DYING.
7) You said,
Quote from: cummuterguywhen our judiciary system starts prosecuting and imprisoning people for killing other motorists, irregardless of their method of transportation, then you will see other people starting to watch out for motorcyclists, along with bicyclists, small children on tricycles, whatever. JUST LIKE THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING ALL ALONG!!!
Somehow I doubt this would have much of an effect on the average driver. Think about it: how many motorcycle riders give up riding because of the increasing number of riders that are dying out there? Some do, of course ... but I wouldn't think it's a large percentage. In both cases I believe it comes down to the "it won't happen to me" tendency that we all have.
8 ) Finally, your signoff:
Quote from: cummuterguyIn the meantime, obviously, obey all traffic laws, just like I'm SURE all those 'cagers' are doing... :bs: , and wear all the safety equipment you can, I do, every day...
I'll ride to THAT! :thumb:[/list:u]
Whew -- time to get to bed! :o
Like it or not we have to think for the cages as well as ourselves, if we don't we pay the price.
IN ANY TRAFFIC SITUATION INVOLVING A MOTORCYCLE, THE MOTORCYCLIST IS THE MOST VULNERABLE PARTY.
Remember it, keep repeating it, I know HiViz wont save you if the other person is not looking but give yourself every chance, Life's so sweet as Mario Puzo's legendry character uttered when he died playing with his grandchildren in his garden.
Unfortuneatly being human we all make mistakes. I've made a few myself whether riding the motorcycle or driving my mini-van. I'm sure we all have made them. Maybe you were riding too fast in an area where you should be riding slow. In my driving course we learned that mall exits are an area of high risk for collision. In fact I used to live across from a mall exit and about once every week I'd hear the inevitable screeching of tires and resulting sound of two metal buckets crashing together. Luckily no motorcycles were involved that I heard.
You have to ride with some margin for error. Either yours or another drivers. Blaming everything on SUV/mini-van drivers is like saying "the dog ate my homework". That just doesn't cut it. Expecting 300 million people to change their driving habits overnight is overly optomistic. Don't we have to realize that what we are doing comes with some amount of risk and accept it? I think about it everytime I get on the bike. This could be "the day". It scares the hell out of me sometimes but I also don't want to get to the end of my life without having lived at all.
What about severe driving penalties? Maybe .. but remember it will go both ways. Want to lose your license for going 50 in a 35? As much as I want to see drivers improve I don't think penalties are the answer. I think driver training is. Think about the amount of training (if any) drivers receive in this country. If these powerful machines were in the workplace, we'd all have to take a two week courses and pass annual driving tests.
Anyway my point is ... blaming SUV or min-van drivers is counter productive. Realizing the danger and planning for it is best. Drive carefully especially where there is alot of traffic (or just avoid it). Pay up those insurance premiums. Think about some disability insurance. Being disabled the rest of your life is much more of a financial burdon on a family than death.
My 2 cents worth.
sorry if I came off a bit strong last night, this topic affects me that way.
Of course i know that motorcycling is more hazardous than driving in a 'cage', I drive like i'm invisible every day and try to stay as safe as possible.
my point is, when I drive my little pickup truck, or any other vehicle with four wheels and 'safer', I STILL DRIVE WITH CARE. I look for those kids/bicycles/motorcycles/miatas etc.. that may be harder to see. And when the vehicle I drive is larger or harder to see out of, I drive even more carefully, no matter how safe I am.
I of course have life insurance for coverage of my loved ones, and not just because I ride a motorcycle.
I know that we are harder to see, but lets take a good look at the particular SUV vs motorcycle scenario that seems to be the topic at hand here.
Has anyone noticed that all of these SUV'S lately are coming with the back and side glass tinted so dark its hard to see through? I have, since at traffic lights, i cant look through the back glass of these vehicles like I do with others when I want to see what's ahead.
Now, i'm sure that the tinting is legal, but it does make it a vision hinderance. as a mechanic, I test drive these types of vehicles all the time, and especially when backing up or making turns, I have to take a lot longer time to make sure nothing is in the way.
I wonder how often persons who drive these trucks daily take their poor visibility into consideration, or do they use these windows like horse blinders and continue on their merry way?
secondly, since they sit up higher, is it possible that they are looking right over the top of us? could be, I don't know on that, but it could be a factor.
Maybe a special endorsement should be required to drive these vehicles, just like we have to have, with a seperate driving skills test.
In the meantime, definately, drag your tire, not your plastic. :thumb:
It is well documented, scientifically, that we motorcyclists are difficult to see.
On one occasion, while driving my truck, I pulled out of a parking lot in front of a motorcyclist . I was commited to my turn before I saw him, but fortunately he was back far enough that he could safely slow down. I checked traffic in both directions (probably to quickly, my fault) before I pulled out of that parking lot, but I simply did not see the motorcyclist until it was too late. Was I in the wrong? Definitely. However, I was not an evil "cager" (how I hate that word!) that deliberately targeted a motorcyclist that day.
Automobile accidents occur everday, but most of these accidents are automobile versus automobile. However, we motorcyclists are going to be involved in some of these accidents. Unfortunately for us we face serious injury because we are so exposed to the collision forces of these accidents.
I have been in several automobile versus automobile accidents, and no one involved in these accidents were seriously injured. However, each of these accidents would have had serious consequences had they involved a motorcyclist.
Many of us, at one point in our lives, have caused an accident with their automobile ( hopefully no serious injuries involved). Imagine the consequences if you had hit a motorcyclist instead of another automobile. Now you would be that crazed "cager" who ran into the motorcyclist.
An accident with an automobile that causes no injuries could easily cause dismemberment, paralysis, or even death when a motorcycle is involved.
The next time you are responsible for a relatively minor automobile versus automobile accident thank God that you just did't hit a motorcycle.
Except for the rare road rage incident no motorist wants to be involved in an accident especially with a motorcyclist. We have to accept the elevated risk of riding a motorcycle, the fact that we are hard to see, and that we have to be extra dilligent in our accident avoidance skills.
Things are not going to change out there on the roads. We must take the responsibility to ride responsively and safely. It is all we can do.
Bob
QuoteRiding is dangerous. Period. Along with "planning for early death" we should do our absolute best to reduce the chances of it happening. That means reading, practicing, never taking the ride for granted, maintaining the bike, etc. I think too many of us hear stories about the demon SUV, use the info to justify our increasing contempt for cagers, and stop there. What we SHOULD do is skip the useless value judgement and let the information motivate us -- to hone our accident prevention strategies, practice for the (almost) inevitable "incident", and look for ways to constantly improve. Isn't that what we're expecting of the SUV driver, even though they might have plenty of reasons to hold "us" in contempt -- what with wild street antics, loud pipes and so on?
I don't have anything especially impactful to add, I just thought that part of Kerry's comment really deserved a repeat.
C
Many folks purchase SUVs or large cars because they feel "safer" in them. In fact, compared to riding on 2 wheels, they are much better protected (safer).
I just got back from a 40 mile ride. I paid attention to my mental condition during the ride. On 4 lane limited access Speed Limit 55 roads, I was monitoring the traffic around me closely. Whe the SL dropped to 45 and traffic lights came every half mile, my "personal space" extended to the first 2 cars stopped at every intersection I passed through.
When I got to the 4-6 lanes each way area, my threat warning radar was on maximum. I remenber crossing 4 lanes of traffic in my Maxima to make the same turn that I was lining up for. I came from a different direction when I was in the car, but I remember what happened.
When I was in the car, I was working hard to see all around to make the lane change with out making anyone hit their brakes because of me. My neck hurt from the scanning. (I aim my side view mirrors into the spot beside my car, not the same spot that my inside mirror points to. Do you?)
We, because we also ride, have a hightened awareness of the traffic around us. If you drive your 4 wheel vehicle with the same awareness that you have when you're on your bike, you are the safest person in the road. But look around you in traffic. You will see moms trying to quell a sibling dispute in the back seat and not miss their turn. The Exec tryign to close the next deal on his cell phone going over notes from his last pricing meeting. The software engineer (sorry Kerry) looking at the traffic light, but thinking about the bug that he's trying to beat into submission. The carload of imigrants thinking about getting gas and beer at the 'stop and rob' 2 lanes over that has gas for 1 cent less than the next three places up the road.
I could go on, but you probably get the picture by now and I apoligise to everyone that I've shown disrespect to. Every one of these people have much more important things on their mind than looking for the hard to see motorcycle one car back in the next lane over.
They will run over you! The fact that you were in the right doesn't matter in the least when youy're a quadriplegic or dead.
3 years down the road your survivors will get a boat load of money, maybe, after they've lost YOUR house to keep the lawsuit alive.
The point (thanks Kerry, you got it) is that being right will NOT keep you alive or healthy. Winning in court is good for your heirs, but won't restore your life or health. There's no "reset" button in this game.
I'm ramblin about something that is *very* important to me. If you tangle with a 4 wheel vehicle, you loose. Pure and simple. Being right dosen't make a damn bit of difference if you are preminantly injured or dead.
Is that sinking in??? If you're injured a court judgement isn't going to restore you to health.
I *always* have to be at the top of my game if I'm going out on 2 wheels (motor or not). I *always* assume that I are invisible. If I always assume that no-one can see me and act accordingly, I have a chance of staying alive and unharmed.
Some get home safe, some don't.Good luck Stay safe.
We, as motorcyclists, have to compensate for others lack of attention.
Standards are self-imposed restrictions. That's why the law is so often broken; even by the 'law abiding citizen'. It is up to us to decide what our own acceptable standards are to us. Realize that others may not have the same standards. These are the people we have to compensate for. Else, we die. And, I don't want to die. I will fight the good fight. Everyday. Ride on. Ride safe.
I have a couple more data points to add....
I mentioned my dad's wreck a few weeks ago. Today I received the September issue of my mom's monthly "Letter From Home" with more info:
(http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/DadsST1300Accident.jpg)
I still haven't had a chance to talk with him about the accident, so I don't know whether he's kicking himself for not paying attention, or laying all the blame on the pickup or what. If it's appropriate to print :o I'll let you know once I find out.
====================================
Meanwhile, this evening I opened up the November issue of Rider magazine. I usually learn something from Lawrence Grodsky's "Stayin' Safe" column. And what do I find right there on page 20?
(http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/Rider_2004_11_Top2CollisionCauses.jpg)
Barn? Cornfield? He was writing about riding in Wisconsin and the upper Midwest. But the principle obviously applies in town, too. Just ask my Dad....
There is no doubt that motorcylcing is risky and although we can reduce the odds of getting hurt, we can't eliminate the risk.
Drive defensively when in traffic, wear your safety gear, keep your bike maintained, take MSF refresher courses. If you really concentrate on avoiding the next crash, you've got a much batter chance of actually doing it.
As James Dickey (literature professor and author of "Deliverance" ) once said: When life gets boring, risk it.
When I ride in traffic, I know there will be cages doing all sorts of nasty things, and I consider it a challenge to anticipate and avoid their mindless manuevers. I can tell from the way they drive whether they are on their damn cell phone, putting on their makeup, yelling at their kids in the backseat, reading the paper, or not paying attention for whatever reason.
It's not just that they didn't see the motorcycle, it's that they weren't paying attention to their driving or the traffic. They are the enemy and we must be ever vigilant,
I'm apologizing for the 3 posts... guess I pressed submit too many times.... hmm...
Sorry
Quote from: DataDimeI look down the lane, approx 2 cars down, a green van with tinted windows has left a car length of space. I navigate my way between then 2 lengths of cars and park myself into the large empty space. Shoulder check and wave a thank you to the van driver who did not respond at all. Ok, I thought... probably upset that.
Now I know what some of you may be thinking. That I deserved this confrontation, that it put some sense and respect for the rules of the road back in my head, that lines on the road aren't a suggestion. Well then you're right! I did get a reality check, I understand how some people just love to enforce rules on others rather than take situations with a grain of salt and move on.
What I don't agree with is the van driver putting my life at risk over her selfishness regarding "HER" lane and "HER" space being compromised.
What you did is, according to my standards, would be O.K. She left enough space for you to get in. While she might have been compensating for a multiple vehicle accident by leaving that large space in front of her, you did nothing against the law. So, no, you did not deserve this, but it is good that you understand what may piss some people off. This even includes a freindly wave that may be interpreted as, "Thank you, Sucker", instead of just, "Thank you".
I have been warned of waving after passing somebody that it may be interpreted as, "See ya! (I'm a squid/racer, you're slow, see ya at the finish line!)".
Kerry, I hope your dad is allright and I hope he feels better.
I'm glad things worked out as well as they did for you. :thumb:
Quote from: DataDimeI'm apologizing for the 3 posts... guess I pressed submit too many times.... hmm...
Sorry
PS - You CAN delete your own posts. I took care of it for you this time. :mrgreen:
Kerry, sorry to hear about your dad, hope he and his bike turn out ok. (plus I hope I love YOU let's him back on it...)
I'd also like to apologise for ranting (twice) in this topic when the sentiment of the topic wasn't really appropriate, it was supposed to be just a fellow member giving friendly advise to us to slow down and watch out for ourselves. I just got flared up, because I have had some unusually frequent encounters with negligent and /or malicious drivers lately. Sorry about that, I know I can't change the world by 'preaching to the choir'.