Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 06:29:08 PM
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 06:29:08 PM
Sometimes it'll start up, sometimes it won't.
K&n pods,
srinaths pipe
#150 mains
two #4 washers per carb...each is just under 1mm thick
three full turns out.
#40 pilots
I tried to set the idle around 800 but it's so erratic and sometimes the rpms just stay high even though I release the throttle. It doesn't seem like the throttle is sticking though cause it snaps back.
I cant imagine what is wrong. Any ideas?
also has backfired a few times, causing a stall once
starts if I point arrow up. idles at quarter choke, rough idle
K&n pods,
srinaths pipe
#150 mains
two #4 washers per carb...each is just under 1mm thick
three full turns out.
#40 pilots
I tried to set the idle around 800 but it's so erratic and sometimes the rpms just stay high even though I release the throttle. It doesn't seem like the throttle is sticking though cause it snaps back.
I cant imagine what is wrong. Any ideas?
also has backfired a few times, causing a stall once
starts if I point arrow up. idles at quarter choke, rough idle
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: treybrad on November 19, 2004, 06:53:11 PM
Post by: treybrad on November 19, 2004, 06:53:11 PM
It starts on PRI? I'd make sure you've got the vacuum lines connected right. I didn't last time I had my carbs off and it was about like what you're describing. Worth a shot.
trey
trey
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: 70 Cam Guy on November 19, 2004, 06:53:13 PM
Post by: 70 Cam Guy on November 19, 2004, 06:53:13 PM
I thought idle was supposed to be set at 1100. Is it different when you rejet? :dunno:
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 07:03:12 PM
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 07:03:12 PM
your right...I tried for around 1000, and got rid of one of the washers. Now it's only a 1mm shim and it idles way better.
It still only starts on prime, runs for a minute on and off choke and then dies.
Ill check the vaccuum lines.
It still only starts on prime, runs for a minute on and off choke and then dies.
Ill check the vaccuum lines.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: treybrad on November 19, 2004, 07:09:38 PM
Post by: treybrad on November 19, 2004, 07:09:38 PM
check those lines. let us know when you get it figured out... i'm putting a pod on here in a couple weeks and would love to know any pitfalls on the rejetting... btw.. how cold is it where you are?
trey
trey
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: GRU on November 19, 2004, 07:30:05 PM
Post by: GRU on November 19, 2004, 07:30:05 PM
ok, assuming you have everything set right....i think you have a vacuum problem...make sure the carbs are seatet right and tight in the boots...also, did you notice a small rubber O ring on the side of the carb (between the plastic top cover and the carb) ?
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 07:51:10 PM
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 07:51:10 PM
Rubber O rings(the teenie tiny ones) are in place. Carbs snug. Here are my questions regarding vaccuum lines:
The non fuel hose from the tank, goes to the t fitting on the bottom of the carbs right?
Fuel tank hoses I'm sure I have right.
The vaccuum line from the carb, just my left carb has one...goes to the furthest right nozzle on the shutoff valve.
The top t fitting has a hose that goes to the middle fuel shutoff nozzle. It also leaks fuel like a sieve if I leave the primer on.
Breather hose has no filter
The non fuel hose from the tank, goes to the t fitting on the bottom of the carbs right?
Fuel tank hoses I'm sure I have right.
The vaccuum line from the carb, just my left carb has one...goes to the furthest right nozzle on the shutoff valve.
The top t fitting has a hose that goes to the middle fuel shutoff nozzle. It also leaks fuel like a sieve if I leave the primer on.
Breather hose has no filter
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 08:17:59 PM
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 08:17:59 PM
Switched the top and bottom t fitting. Top t now goes to tank purge hose and bottom t goes to middle nozzle on fuel shutoff.
Starts better, still a rough idle.
Starts better, still a rough idle.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 08:22:08 PM
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 08:22:08 PM
wont start again...
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Rema1000 on November 19, 2004, 08:24:53 PM
Post by: Rema1000 on November 19, 2004, 08:24:53 PM
That "3 turns out" is just a starting-point. If you're running a unique combination of intake and exhaust, then you need to tune the pilots the same way you tune the idle:
After a nice ride (bike is completely warmed-up), turn the idle up to 2k;
Use a screwdriver bit to adjust the pilot on each side:
I turn the mixture lean, then gradually turn it richer until the idle quits going-up, then I leave it there. Some people turn the mixture richer until it starts to bog (too rich), then back off a bit leaner again.
I have had to do this (as well as set the idle) at-least once in the fall, and again in the spring, in order to get the bike to run well at all temps. Usually, it needs to be richer, and the idle higher, in winter.
After a nice ride (bike is completely warmed-up), turn the idle up to 2k;
Use a screwdriver bit to adjust the pilot on each side:
I turn the mixture lean, then gradually turn it richer until the idle quits going-up, then I leave it there. Some people turn the mixture richer until it starts to bog (too rich), then back off a bit leaner again.
I have had to do this (as well as set the idle) at-least once in the fall, and again in the spring, in order to get the bike to run well at all temps. Usually, it needs to be richer, and the idle higher, in winter.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: adamwade on November 19, 2004, 08:30:37 PM
Post by: adamwade on November 19, 2004, 08:30:37 PM
try this link out for feul and vacuum line routing
http://www.bbburma.net/FuelHoseRouting.htm
http://www.bbburma.net/FuelHoseRouting.htm
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: GRU on November 19, 2004, 08:37:56 PM
Post by: GRU on November 19, 2004, 08:37:56 PM
hold on...you have the gastank drain hose connected to the bottom T of the carbs? that's wrong...the bottom T is supposed to be connected to the frame mounted petcock....
just take a look at the page
just take a look at the page
Quote from: adamwadetry this link out for feul and vacuum line routing
http://www.bbburma.net/FuelHoseRouting.htm
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 08:54:04 PM
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 08:54:04 PM
Thanks adamwade, that helped incredibly...starts right up... but seems like a rough idle. I had to set it at around 1300-1500.
I only had a 1mm washer, would 2 washers, for a grand total of 2mm per carb be better?
La ti da. It's good enuf for a cruisa around the BLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I only had a 1mm washer, would 2 washers, for a grand total of 2mm per carb be better?
La ti da. It's good enuf for a cruisa around the BLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 09:28:13 PM
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 09:28:13 PM
On riding.
No oomph. Could barely make it into 2nd gear. No more push after 5000rpms. Could barely make it get up to 10000. Could it be the Mobil1 10w30 for cars?
Is my chain too tight? I'm just trying to think of ANY possible explaination.
No oomph. Could barely make it into 2nd gear. No more push after 5000rpms. Could barely make it get up to 10000. Could it be the Mobil1 10w30 for cars?
Is my chain too tight? I'm just trying to think of ANY possible explaination.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: pixelmonkey on November 19, 2004, 10:47:13 PM
Post by: pixelmonkey on November 19, 2004, 10:47:13 PM
maybe a bad spark plug???
easy to check, and cheap to fix!
chris<pixelmonkey>:D
easy to check, and cheap to fix!
chris<pixelmonkey>:D
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 11:05:56 PM
Post by: Dom on November 19, 2004, 11:05:56 PM
that was my thought too. I just had some mexican food and was thinking to myself what it could bee over some drinks. I'll get some first thing./
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Ed89 on November 20, 2004, 01:34:19 AM
Post by: Ed89 on November 20, 2004, 01:34:19 AM
Still leaking fuel with the petcock set to prime? From the carb? If so you might have a stuck float needle (or not properly seated).
Cheers,
e.
Cheers,
e.
Title: Fuel flow
Post by: The Buddha on November 20, 2004, 07:57:51 AM
Post by: The Buddha on November 20, 2004, 07:57:51 AM
Quote from: DomOn riding.
No oomph. Could barely make it into 2nd gear. No more push after 5000rpms. Could barely make it get up to 10000. Could it be the Mobil1 10w30 for cars?
Is my chain too tight? I'm just trying to think of ANY possible explaination.
OK are your floats filling up... vaccum hose to petcock should go to the left carb inside fitting that sorta faces the right carb.
Your floats should be full to the gasket, and check if your slides are moving up and down ... no kinked springs etc... and diaphragms seated well and no rips in them right ... even a tiny one is very bad.
Cool.
Srinath.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 20, 2004, 10:38:19 AM
Post by: Dom on November 20, 2004, 10:38:19 AM
One of my diaphragms is a little little bigger than the indentation, so I have to place the cover over it and shimmy it a little bit so the flange seats in the groove.
What is a slide? Is that the plastic part of the diaphragm?
Do the #40 pilots have 4 holes drilled in the sides?
No longer leaking with petcock to prime.
What is a slide? Is that the plastic part of the diaphragm?
Do the #40 pilots have 4 holes drilled in the sides?
No longer leaking with petcock to prime.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Rema1000 on November 20, 2004, 11:13:49 AM
Post by: Rema1000 on November 20, 2004, 11:13:49 AM
Be sure to check float height using the U-tube method. Sometimes after you put things back together, the float needle sticks. Once, I had to tap on the side of the float bowl with an axehandle, and then the bowl filled-up.
Also, I had a similar problem once when the fuel hose from the petcock to the carbs was pinched where it passes by the frame: bike would run fine in the driveway, but could only ride in 1st at moderate RPMs.
Also, I had a similar problem once when the fuel hose from the petcock to the carbs was pinched where it passes by the frame: bike would run fine in the driveway, but could only ride in 1st at moderate RPMs.
Title: 40's
Post by: The Buddha on November 20, 2004, 05:48:32 PM
Post by: The Buddha on November 20, 2004, 05:48:32 PM
Quote from: DomOne of my diaphragms is a little little bigger than the indentation, so I have to place the cover over it and shimmy it a little bit so the flange seats in the groove.
What is a slide? Is that the plastic part of the diaphragm?
Do the #40 pilots have 4 holes drilled in the sides?
No longer leaking with petcock to prime.
40's with side holes = wrong..... no side holes 40 is right ...else it be too rich...
Diaphragm 1 bigger --- ok that's a bit fishy ... they do swell with soaking in cleaner ... but both should be bigger ... just 1... anyway if you get it seated right... that's OK ... no holes in either ??? and slides go up and down fine right ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 20, 2004, 07:04:32 PM
Post by: Dom on November 20, 2004, 07:04:32 PM
I asked them about the #40 pilots when I bought them, but they insisted that they were the right thing. That might be the problem. I think the seat on of of my float needles might be suspect as well. I remember it not seating perfectly upon installation, but isn't it held down by the float armature?
I don't know if this makes a difference, but I see that noticing detail is important sometimes. I tried starting the motor a few times without a filter and I noticed that there was a fine spray or mist coming out of my right carb after another unsuccessful attempt. That mist is good, is it not? Maybe I should check the left carb. Well, I know I should check them both.
Srinath, do you think that the pilots could possibly be the sole source of my problems? That would be nice. :mrgreen:
I don't know if this makes a difference, but I see that noticing detail is important sometimes. I tried starting the motor a few times without a filter and I noticed that there was a fine spray or mist coming out of my right carb after another unsuccessful attempt. That mist is good, is it not? Maybe I should check the left carb. Well, I know I should check them both.
Srinath, do you think that the pilots could possibly be the sole source of my problems? That would be nice. :mrgreen:
Title: OK ...
Post by: The Buddha on November 20, 2004, 08:22:34 PM
Post by: The Buddha on November 20, 2004, 08:22:34 PM
Pilots are under 2K ... starting and take off usually ... Typically holes on the sides will make it richer ~1 size ... and he bike will start and idle beautifully but as it gets hotter ... it starts to crap out, wants to stall and is near impossible to take off from a stop without stalling it.
Mist from carbs is normal... but usually both... if not... yours are out of synch .. you can eyeball synch it ... take off carbs and loot at some daylight from the filter side ... and you can fiddle with the synch screw till you get the same daylight under both butterflies. ... BTW you can adjust the idle screw and set it to give you the tiniest sliver of light ... and then adjust the synch.
Let me know what all the symptoms are ...you got RU 2970 pod instead of airbox and the slip on right... not a K&N in airbox... that will be 127.5 if its in airbox.
Cool.
Srinath.
Mist from carbs is normal... but usually both... if not... yours are out of synch .. you can eyeball synch it ... take off carbs and loot at some daylight from the filter side ... and you can fiddle with the synch screw till you get the same daylight under both butterflies. ... BTW you can adjust the idle screw and set it to give you the tiniest sliver of light ... and then adjust the synch.
Let me know what all the symptoms are ...you got RU 2970 pod instead of airbox and the slip on right... not a K&N in airbox... that will be 127.5 if its in airbox.
Cool.
Srinath.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 20, 2004, 08:54:11 PM
Post by: Dom on November 20, 2004, 08:54:11 PM
I have pods, one K&N on each carb. They are just something I had that fit. But I don't think it should matter all that much what they are, any K&N's back there are going to produce similar effects, right?
To be honest, I don't even know if my hoses are right. I know that my two fuel hoses off the tank are switched, but it starts up all the same. The small hose from the left carb goes to the far right point on the petcock. The t fitting off the bottom of the carbs goes to the middle front point on the petcock. And that's all that matters I think, every other hose goes nowhere.
Srinath, I'm seriously considering fed-exing them to you next day air tomorrow morning. I'll eff around with it tomorrow, get the other pilots and some new plugs, but if I can't make this baby happen tomorrow I'm throwing in the towel.
To be honest, I don't even know if my hoses are right. I know that my two fuel hoses off the tank are switched, but it starts up all the same. The small hose from the left carb goes to the far right point on the petcock. The t fitting off the bottom of the carbs goes to the middle front point on the petcock. And that's all that matters I think, every other hose goes nowhere.
Srinath, I'm seriously considering fed-exing them to you next day air tomorrow morning. I'll eff around with it tomorrow, get the other pilots and some new plugs, but if I can't make this baby happen tomorrow I'm throwing in the towel.
Title: send it...
Post by: The Buddha on November 20, 2004, 10:02:47 PM
Post by: The Buddha on November 20, 2004, 10:02:47 PM
K send it ... if I do nohting ... I fiddle with floats etc no biggie ... its free ... harder stuff like drilling out plugs and stuff is what i charge $$ ... free just pay shipping $$ ... damn I am going broke shipping stuff ... OK OK y'all paid for it but dammit its expensive ... and screw USPS ... its a bit more $$$ in most cases than UPS ... but it was fast to you DOM, but others are still waiting ... and they were closer.
BTW your filters are = the RU 2970 so 150 is fine for mains, the hoses seem to be right ... The T fitting to middle in the frame petcock you mean the T in the back and bottom of the carbs right ... not the front or top ... and BTW you have the tank petcock open ??? the screwdriver slot should be vertical... not horizontal ... now what do you have swapped around ... the frame to tank ... then prime will connect main and carbs wihtout vacuum,and on will connect reserve to carbs when there is vacuum, and reserve will connect the main tank to carbs when there is vacuum ... crap .. you may have a vapor lock in tank as well ...
Cool.
Srinath.
BTW your filters are = the RU 2970 so 150 is fine for mains, the hoses seem to be right ... The T fitting to middle in the frame petcock you mean the T in the back and bottom of the carbs right ... not the front or top ... and BTW you have the tank petcock open ??? the screwdriver slot should be vertical... not horizontal ... now what do you have swapped around ... the frame to tank ... then prime will connect main and carbs wihtout vacuum,and on will connect reserve to carbs when there is vacuum, and reserve will connect the main tank to carbs when there is vacuum ... crap .. you may have a vapor lock in tank as well ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: adamwade on November 21, 2004, 05:47:56 AM
Post by: adamwade on November 21, 2004, 05:47:56 AM
Dom,
Seriously, the fuel hoses need to be run properly or the bike will run like crap. If the hoses are switched around, nothing will work properly. It may start and run now, but you may have no reserve when you need it. Look at this link for hose routing, probably the best I have seen.
http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action=showMyPhoto&albumID=209902436&photoID=220222792&security=JCsHRn
Ignore all the hoses that connect to the canister, California emission models only
Seriously, the fuel hoses need to be run properly or the bike will run like crap. If the hoses are switched around, nothing will work properly. It may start and run now, but you may have no reserve when you need it. Look at this link for hose routing, probably the best I have seen.
http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action=showMyPhoto&albumID=209902436&photoID=220222792&security=JCsHRn
Ignore all the hoses that connect to the canister, California emission models only
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 11:11:25 AM
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 11:11:25 AM
Well, I went back to the dealer and they said that he pilots, the short ones with the eight holes drilled in the sides were all they had. Even the stock ones that they had looked like that.
So I bought some clear hose to do the float bowl test and also to switch out all my fuel lines so I can actually see what the hell is going on, vapor lock etc.
Wish me luck. I'm just going to pull everything apart, sight synch the carbs, and put em back together.
So I bought some clear hose to do the float bowl test and also to switch out all my fuel lines so I can actually see what the hell is going on, vapor lock etc.
Wish me luck. I'm just going to pull everything apart, sight synch the carbs, and put em back together.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 02:14:29 PM
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 02:14:29 PM
I switched out all the hoses to clear tube, so now I can see that there is actually fuel going into the bottom t fitting on the carbs.
I replaced the eight hole pilots(#40) with the stock ones and now I can get it to start at all.
I checked for a sticky float needle, their both fine.
I checked for any holes in the diaphragm, and can't see any holes.
Checked for good movement everywhere and I can't see any problems whatsoever.
Synched the carbs by sight and can see just a sliver of daylight thru both carbs.
I switched the hoses and the tank both ways and can't get it to start with them in either position.
Any Ideas?
I replaced the eight hole pilots(#40) with the stock ones and now I can get it to start at all.
I checked for a sticky float needle, their both fine.
I checked for any holes in the diaphragm, and can't see any holes.
Checked for good movement everywhere and I can't see any problems whatsoever.
Synched the carbs by sight and can see just a sliver of daylight thru both carbs.
I switched the hoses and the tank both ways and can't get it to start with them in either position.
Any Ideas?
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 03:24:21 PM
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 03:24:21 PM
I thought it was bad spark plugs because I put in some other ones, not new, and she started right up and purred like a big bad kitten.
So I take her for a ride, get about two blocks and I have complete acceleration and then I stop at a stop sign and she's totally flooded. So I limp home.
Now she won't start again.
Maybe did it start up cause I gave the cylinders some air when I changed the spark plugs?
So I take her for a ride, get about two blocks and I have complete acceleration and then I stop at a stop sign and she's totally flooded. So I limp home.
Now she won't start again.
Maybe did it start up cause I gave the cylinders some air when I changed the spark plugs?
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 04:06:07 PM
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 04:06:07 PM
Performed float bowl U-hose test and both read very low on the float cover.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 06:05:14 PM
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 06:05:14 PM
Ok, so I got the bike to a point where it'll start up and idle, but still is waaaaay groggy and feels like I am trying to ride around in 3rd gear.
Float bowl tests show level to be a good 15mm below the low part of the gasket. Ugh.
Float bowl tests show level to be a good 15mm below the low part of the gasket. Ugh.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 06:08:41 PM
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 06:08:41 PM
U think I should switch to two #4 washers per carb?
Title: Duuuude
Post by: The Buddha on November 21, 2004, 08:32:09 PM
Post by: The Buddha on November 21, 2004, 08:32:09 PM
Quote from: DomOk, so I got the bike to a point where it'll start up and idle, but still is waaaaay groggy and feels like I am trying to ride around in 3rd gear.
Float bowl tests show level to be a good 15mm below the low part of the gasket. Ugh.
15 mm below gasket... OK I set them right at the gasket level ... IMHO .... really surprised it even ran ... set it to the top of bowl... else you will not get it to run right ... ever. BTW you might have fuel supply/flow issues ... I doubt if it can even be set that low ... you testing in prime ... I mean real prime...since your hoses are off.
Cool.
Srinath.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 10:23:13 PM
Post by: Dom on November 21, 2004, 10:23:13 PM
Yeah, I tested it in prime. I'v spilled so much gas though there might not be enough downward pressure from my tank to get fuel into the carbs now. Argh. If I send you my carbs is there any guarantee they will work if I put them on my bike? Maybe I'll send you the filters too.
Title: Send it
Post by: The Buddha on November 22, 2004, 10:51:21 AM
Post by: The Buddha on November 22, 2004, 10:51:21 AM
OK send it ...and why dont you let it run a few mins before giving throttle ... and you sure your frame and tank petcocks are flowing right ... If I dont spot anything wrong with it then ... OK I can run it on my bike. cos I have the same setup... however I'll charge you $50 for that ...else it be most likely free ... and If I run it on mine and it works ...then you can be sure its good ... and if there is a problem its somewhere else ... Oh BTW you got no hole pilots in 40 in it ... else the holed one = low end trouble...
Cool.
Srinath.
Cool.
Srinath.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 22, 2004, 11:02:44 AM
Post by: Dom on November 22, 2004, 11:02:44 AM
Naw I pulled out the #40s with holes and put the stock pilots back in. I'm sure it was sufficiently warm...gave it a good 10 minutes to warm up before I gassed it.
I'm going to try the coolant container trick tonite and mess with the floats some more...
Biggest pain was that I would get it to run and sound fine so I would put everything back on and go for a ride and it would poop out when I got two blocks away...and the battery is long dead by now so I would have to push it back every time. ugh...
I'm going to try the coolant container trick tonite and mess with the floats some more...
Biggest pain was that I would get it to run and sound fine so I would put everything back on and go for a ride and it would poop out when I got two blocks away...and the battery is long dead by now so I would have to push it back every time. ugh...
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 22, 2004, 02:45:15 PM
Post by: Dom on November 22, 2004, 02:45:15 PM
I switched everything to 1/4" fuel hose...problematic?
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 22, 2004, 10:30:42 PM
Post by: Dom on November 22, 2004, 10:30:42 PM
I think I'm experiencing starvation issues.
I start it up after priming, let it run until it's warm, then I really lay on the throttle and rev it out then I see through the clear tubing that little bubbles are forming behind the lower T fitting. I can hear/see that it's starving so I re-prime it while the bike is running, just until I see that the bubbles go away and the hose is full... This would cause me to think that maybe my floats arent filling up fast enough. Could it be because I used 1/4" tubing? Should I run a hose straight to the carb from the tank?...it seems that that would clear it up.
The tube: (http://onfinite.com/libraries/175806/fe4.jpg)
The most aspirated GS ever...
(http://onfinite.com/libraries/175798/841.jpg)
I start it up after priming, let it run until it's warm, then I really lay on the throttle and rev it out then I see through the clear tubing that little bubbles are forming behind the lower T fitting. I can hear/see that it's starving so I re-prime it while the bike is running, just until I see that the bubbles go away and the hose is full... This would cause me to think that maybe my floats arent filling up fast enough. Could it be because I used 1/4" tubing? Should I run a hose straight to the carb from the tank?...it seems that that would clear it up.
The tube: (http://onfinite.com/libraries/175806/fe4.jpg)
The most aspirated GS ever...
(http://onfinite.com/libraries/175798/841.jpg)
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Kerry on November 23, 2004, 01:54:46 AM
Post by: Kerry on November 23, 2004, 01:54:46 AM
Quote from: Dommaybe my floats arent filling up fast enough. Could it be because I used 1/4" tubing? Should I run a hose straight to the carb from the tank?...it seems that that would clear it up.I don't think the 1/4" tubing is insufficient, but I could be wrong. :dunno:
It should be pretty easy to run the REServe hose from the longer (forward) outlet tube on the tank-mounted petcock to the carbs. Just use that handy clamp in the photos to "cap" the ON hose temporarily. Do something similar to cap the vacuum hose going from the ON/RES/PRI petcock to the left carb. (BTW, that hose doesn' t seem to be pushed all the way onto the petcock -- is it?)
Since you've got clear hoses, let us know what results you get. I was going to "theorize" about how in the world you could get air bubbles at that particular spot, but I'll hold off until you report back.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 23, 2004, 02:38:41 AM
Post by: Dom on November 23, 2004, 02:38:41 AM
Kerry, please theorize, I insist. :mrgreen: Ideally I don't want to mount the tank again, but let me understand you correctly; you are saying to clamp off the ON hose, run the temp tank to the RES hose, switch the frame petcock to RES, clamp the vaccuum hose and see what happens? .
The only thing I havn't tried, which I will tomorrow night, is running my temp tank straight to the carbs. Then, if any bubbling happens, I know that the carb is somehow creating back pressure, which I have no idea of how to remedy.
BTW my floats are dead on the gasket...well, at least the meniscus is...will that suffice..is a mm or so +/- ok?
The only thing I havn't tried, which I will tomorrow night, is running my temp tank straight to the carbs. Then, if any bubbling happens, I know that the carb is somehow creating back pressure, which I have no idea of how to remedy.
BTW my floats are dead on the gasket...well, at least the meniscus is...will that suffice..is a mm or so +/- ok?
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Kerry on November 23, 2004, 03:46:37 AM
Post by: Kerry on November 23, 2004, 03:46:37 AM
Quote from: DomIdeally I don't want to mount the tank again, but let me understand you correctly; you are saying to clamp off the ON hose, run the temp tank to the RES hose, switch the frame petcock to RES, clamp the vaccuum hose and see what happens?Well, no. I meant to "run the temp tank straight to the carbs". The idea is to bypass the frame-mounted petcock altogether. I described it assuming that the fuel tank was reinstalled ... sorry.
Quote from: DomThen, if any bubbling happens, I know that the carb is somehow creating back pressure, which I have no idea of how to remedy.Yeah ... likewise!
Quote from: DomBTW my floats are dead on the gasket...well, at least the meniscus is...will that suffice..is a mm or so +/- ok?If 1.0mm +/- is OK for the float needle it should be OK for the float. :dunno:
Quote from: DomKerry, please theorize, I insist.By "theorize", I just meant that I wanted to start with what I "know" and work towards the evidence you're seeing. Let's see, what are all of the possible ways that bubbles could be made to appear at that point in the system?
- 1) By some kind of back pressure, like you said.
2) By bubbles forming right out of the fuel. I don't even know if this is possible; all I have to go on is the cavitation effect from boat propellers. :? [/list:u]For now let's say we ignore possibility #2, K? :roll: All right, so we assume that actual air is being forced back into the fuel supply tube. Where could it be coming from?
A) Directly from the lower T-connector between the carbs, because of a bad seal. Possible diagnostic/fix - apply a thick layer of Vaseline or something there and see if a hole forms when the bike is running? :dunno: (BTW, there are actually 3 connection points ... don't overlook one!)
B) From the float bowls via the float needle seats. Hmmm, interesting possibility. But how could it happen?
- i) One or both needle valve/valve seat combos could have some dirt in between them which prevents a good seal when the valve is closed. This
ii) "Excess" atmospheric pressure on the fuel in the float bowls. The way I've pieced things together in my head, atmospheric pressure (from the hose attached to the upper T-connector between the carbs) PUSHES fuel up through the jets - when a vacuum is created by the intake air rushing over them. Make sense? Now, I'm not real clear on how the vacuum behaves at different throttle positions. I understand that opening the throttle allows more air through the carbs, which pulls (uh, PUSHES) more fuel up through the jets. But I'm not sure what the "vacuum curve" looks like along the range of throttle positions.[/list:u]
So OK, no conclusions yet. But hey - I've got to get to bed! Maybe something I've theorized will trigger an idea for you.
Meanwhile, I noticed a couple things in your photos:
- * The large-diameter hose that once connected the valve cover to the airbox seems to be open to the air. I don't know if this would have any direct effect on this back pressure situation, but I have always heard that you should install a one-way (PCV?) valve there.
* The hose that normally attaches to the upper T-connection between the carbs seems to be missing. That hose supposedly draped over the airbox and ended between it and the battery box so it would have a fairly "smooth" supply of air, without major fluctuations in pressure. With your K&Ns gobbling all the air in the immediate region ... maybe there is an unwanted pressure differential? :dunno:[/list:u]One last idea: In an open system, the pressure measured at a given point in a fluid is a function of its depth at that point, right? (Not the
I'd also be interested to know if you even HAVE an "open system". Does the cap on that return tank allow any air in? You may want to leave it open a crack....
Title: Bubbles...
Post by: The Buddha on November 23, 2004, 08:21:26 AM
Post by: The Buddha on November 23, 2004, 08:21:26 AM
You got bubbles with the test tank on ... OK the lower petcock is messed up ... bubbles there is indicative of some fuel flow screw up...
Cool.
Srinath.
Cool.
Srinath.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 23, 2004, 07:21:47 PM
Post by: Dom on November 23, 2004, 07:21:47 PM
No bubbles with the temp tank direct to the carbs, in fact the bike idled great, and revved awesome all the way to 10k, no flat spots or hesitation anywhere. Once the needle hits 4,200 I can really see the needle gain momentum. The bike was lurching so hard when I gave it full throttle that I thought it was going to hop right of the stand......and go nowhere...... cuz it was in neutral... :lol:
So what do you think? Bad frame petcock? You think I should run the ON hose from the tank straight to the carbs?
Think I should put her back together and take her fer a spin? I would hate to actually put a little resistance under the tires and have her poop out again...I think I would have to have a little tantrum.
So what do you think? Bad frame petcock? You think I should run the ON hose from the tank straight to the carbs?
Think I should put her back together and take her fer a spin? I would hate to actually put a little resistance under the tires and have her poop out again...I think I would have to have a little tantrum.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: callmelenny on November 23, 2004, 07:33:40 PM
Post by: callmelenny on November 23, 2004, 07:33:40 PM
Just hang that little tank from the mirror and you are ready to go! :lol:
I guess you would have to stop for gas more frequently.
I guess you would have to stop for gas more frequently.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Rema1000 on November 23, 2004, 08:12:33 PM
Post by: Rema1000 on November 23, 2004, 08:12:33 PM
I can't remember: did you test riding, just leaving the frame-mounted petcock on PRIme? That won't hurt anything; it will just tell you whether there is a problem with the vacuum-actuated "ON" setting (or just maybe with the "ON" hose or in-tank intake).
If it runs great from the reservoir tank to the carbs, I'd be tempted to cut to the quick, and run the fuel from either tube on the real tank straight to the lower T of the carbs. If the bike runs great, then you know the problem is with the frame mounted petcock, hoses or vacuum system. If it runs poorly, then maybe there's a problem with the tank-mounted petcock (like it's not quite open all the way).
If it runs great from the reservoir tank to the carbs, I'd be tempted to cut to the quick, and run the fuel from either tube on the real tank straight to the lower T of the carbs. If the bike runs great, then you know the problem is with the frame mounted petcock, hoses or vacuum system. If it runs poorly, then maybe there's a problem with the tank-mounted petcock (like it's not quite open all the way).
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 23, 2004, 09:16:00 PM
Post by: Dom on November 23, 2004, 09:16:00 PM
I think I'll run hoses to dual side mounted 5 gal. jerry cans and drive all the way from here to mexico nonstop. Catheter and colostomy bag, I.V., the works. If my calculations are correct Ill only have to stop to fuel up once.
I don't remember if I tried riding on PRI but it doesn't matter because my floats were wacked anyway.
Rebuild petcock? Swap it out? Nix it all together?
I don't remember if I tried riding on PRI but it doesn't matter because my floats were wacked anyway.
Rebuild petcock? Swap it out? Nix it all together?
Title: rebuild
Post by: The Buddha on November 23, 2004, 09:23:28 PM
Post by: The Buddha on November 23, 2004, 09:23:28 PM
Yea rebuild it ... that srileo dude ... chased his problems for weeks, even sent me his carbs and I jetted them to where it was flawless ... and his bike still crapped out 30 miles form his house ... turns out ... big gaping hole in petcock... he fixed it and its not come back in 5-6K whatever miles.
Cool.
Srinath.
Cool.
Srinath.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Kerry on November 24, 2004, 12:23:21 AM
Post by: Kerry on November 24, 2004, 12:23:21 AM
Quote from: Rema1000If it runs great from the reservoir tank to the carbs, I'd be tempted to cut to the quick, and run the fuel from either tube on the real tank straight to the lower T of the carbs. If the bike runs great, then you know the problem is with the frame mounted petcock, hoses or vacuum system.(Emphasis added)
Just make sure that if you use the ON tube (for testing) that you have a couple gallons or more in the tank. And if you DO decide to toss or bypass the ON/RES/PRI petcock and run straight from the tank to the carbs, choose your tank outlet carefully.
- If you use the ON outlet and cap the RES outlet you'll hit the REServe level after about 3 gallons and have no way to use the last gallon or so.
- If you use the RES outlet and cap the ON outlet, you'll have to be careful not to run the tank dry and strand yourself who-knows-where.
Code Select
______________
| \
\ FUEL \
\ TANK \
\ ______________|
R O
E N
S | T-Connector
| \------- <--+--> --------- To lower T-Connector
| | between carbs
| v
|
| |
\-------+-------/
|
Aux. Petcock
Here's a sample T-connector for joining the RES and ON hoses (from the Chaparral catalog):
It looks like you have already found a source for simple auxiliary petcocks. :thumb:
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 24, 2004, 01:36:37 PM
Post by: Dom on November 24, 2004, 01:36:37 PM
Sweet solution, Kerry :cheers:
Should I put the #40 pilots back on, the ones with the eight holes, now that everything is running right or will they definitely make it run too rich? They are the only pilots that anyone around here carries. I mean, a #40 Mikuni pilot is a #40 mikuni pilot, right? Maybe just redesigned. Or does the new design make it run to rich...
If I can't use those #40s does anyone have any they want to sell?
Should I put the #40 pilots back on, the ones with the eight holes, now that everything is running right or will they definitely make it run too rich? They are the only pilots that anyone around here carries. I mean, a #40 Mikuni pilot is a #40 mikuni pilot, right? Maybe just redesigned. Or does the new design make it run to rich...
If I can't use those #40s does anyone have any they want to sell?
Title: 37.5
Post by: The Buddha on November 24, 2004, 01:39:34 PM
Post by: The Buddha on November 24, 2004, 01:39:34 PM
If you are putting pilots with side holes put in 37.5 ... yea the stock GS size ... those holes make it flow just ~ 1 size higher ... no holes = 40... 40 holes are too much ... they are = 42.5 no holes... :x
I have been stuck with the same shiity dilema ... I ended up yanking them off my bike and putting it in srileo's and I tried the bleed (holes) in mine and it works about 37.5 = 40.
Cool.
Srinath.
I have been stuck with the same shiity dilema ... I ended up yanking them off my bike and putting it in srileo's and I tried the bleed (holes) in mine and it works about 37.5 = 40.
Cool.
Srinath.
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Dom on November 24, 2004, 02:12:50 PM
Post by: Dom on November 24, 2004, 02:12:50 PM
Thanks :cheers:
So does that mean that on new models that the stock pilot size is one lower than 37.5 or does Suzuki still use the pilots without holes?
So does that mean that on new models that the stock pilot size is one lower than 37.5 or does Suzuki still use the pilots without holes?
Title: Rejetted, almost there
Post by: Kerry on November 24, 2004, 02:30:52 PM
Post by: Kerry on November 24, 2004, 02:30:52 PM
Don't forget - the '01+ carbs are totally different than the older models. They have a pilot jet, a mid-main and a main ... none of which are the same size as the older ones. I think they're even from a different "series":
(http://www.bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_1932_ManjulsBike_Carbs_WithFloatBowlsRemoved_Annotated.jpg)
(http://www.bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_1932_ManjulsBike_Carbs_WithFloatBowlsRemoved_Annotated.jpg)
Title: Yup...
Post by: The Buddha on November 24, 2004, 05:37:52 PM
Post by: The Buddha on November 24, 2004, 05:37:52 PM
Quote from: DomThanks :cheers:
So does that mean that on new models that the stock pilot size is one lower than 37.5 or does Suzuki still use the pilots without holes?
Yea what Kerry said...
Nothing from a 01+ translates to an 89-00. You need 40 non bleed - aka no holes, or 37.5 bleed - with holes.
The 01+ has 17.5 funky ass pilots and they rejet with a 20, do not try that ... its a different number, they are set differently in the carbs making it work differently and they have mid mains... nothing copies over. Heck the whole carb body is 1mm bigger ID...
Cool.
Srinath.