My ebay win probably has goats (won't turn over - evidence of battery cable over heating), definitely had idiots working on it at some time (SAE screws in metric threaded parts), and was a victim of abuse or steep learning curve (broken rear section of side covers, slightly bent left side frame mount for foot peg).
Regardless of the problems, with time, skill, sweat and the help of new and old friends it will be better than when I obtained it.
Don't forget $. It always requires $.
I love projects like that. Got any pics? I bought a 94 Kawasaki ZX6E from a guy at work for $100, cause it was crashed on one side, and wife wanted it outta the house. $1000 in parts and 4 weekends it was totally rockin. Then I crashed it on the same side, totalling the bike and my wrist... Oh, the insurance gave me $3500 for it, so I made out ok. Good luck on the project! Definitely get a Clymers manual if you don't have one already, and set up a BikeBandit account. I LOVE BikeBandit.
goats? eh. I battled with that
COPY AND PASTE THIS URL
http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/se7enty7/puller.jpg
I can mail you the gear puller I used... it's the easiest way to get the magnet off. That thing is REALLY on there.....
other than that, order a magnet, a stator, a case cover gasket, and, (IMO) a case cover itself. In mine, and one others (possibly) situation, it was the case cover itself that was bent. I have an extra case cover you can have as well that shouldn't be bent. I might have an extra (USED) stator as well.. pm me...
Got to love those project bikes. If you need any parts or help, you have my email address.
btw...I have a right side frame cover. Missing a piece that is covered by the seat and needs paint. You can have it if you could use it.
Thank you for all the fine offers and comments! :thumb:
Here's the "things wrong" list for this bike (so far):
-Rear section of both side covers and mounts for center broken off .
-Center section and hardware missing.
-Side cover screws were totally stripped, no threads, wrong screw type.
-Rear handle good shape, frame where it mounts bent up and nuts broken from welds. :nono:
-Frame at left side foot rest bent in causing rest to mount at angle.
-Both engine side covers with road rash, repainted previously, hmmmm.
-Tach mounting posts broken off of tach. Both tach and mph need new rubber rings.
-Evidence of battery section overheat/fire. New Pos lead. Neg lead was very hot and section is exposed. The rear brake reservior mount is melted and charred slightly. No leaks.
-Right side passenger foot peg stalk dented causing minor bend.
-Front fender mounting plate shot. Still taking orders srinath?
-Fork seals cracked. No fork oil puddles (any oil in there?)
-No handle end hardware. Left side empty, right broken off. Handle seems bent but may be optical due to crooked clutch mount.
-Choke lever won't move but moves OK at carbs.
-Tank seep left side at bottom. No major dents. Should be OK when sealed.
-Last but not least (and the reason it was sold), the engine won't turn over. I hope it is 'goat's syndrome'. It would be kinda cool to be one of the in crowd. I'd feel like a real GStwinner.
Previous owner was at least second. Clean title. He was learning with it when it locked up.
Looks like you really have your hands full. I hope you got the bike cheap.
btw...the dust shields are probably what you see that are cracked, not the fork seals. But you should replace them both along with replacing the fork oil.
Fortyfive minutes with a ball peen and a 3 lb. hammer and the rear handle mount and frame area look better. At least the handle looks in line with the seat and busted side covers. BAM-BAM-BAM!! :o
The better deal for a running GS500 was while I was in Cleveland for a month. A nice black one had a starting bid of $750. I don't remember what the final value was. I budgeted $450 for a fixer-upper and spent $416 for this one. At the same time, a front wrecked one outside of Cincinatti sold for almost what I paid. Mine is all there, just poorly taken care of. :x
The only real show stopper is the seizure problem. I hope to open the side up Wednesday and see if "goat's" has struck again. Then I will have a better view of what I am up against.
Looking at the posts for the racing tail (boy from Columbus,GA) got my idea mill running. Perhaps these busted side covers would work for bases for molds. I do electronics for a living and have a idea for integrated LED side marker/turn signals. No "eye stalks" on the rear but slight bulges flowing into a rear section in line with the tail light. They could also double as red strobes when braking. Hmmmm. Gonna have to pace myself.
OK well I am making and taking orders for fork brace, how about you wait till the bike begins to run or atleast start up... no sense buying $$$ bits when the main aspect is still DOA ...
Cool.
Srinath.
fyi...Since JamesG ("boy from Columbus,GA") is being deployed overseas, I am going Thursday to pick up his molds and take over his fairing production while he is gone.
D, I would like to see the mold set up. I helped a buddy do glass work on his restored BSA years ago. He was a real nut case. Stripped it down to the frame. Total rewire. Toothbrush clean. Come to think of it, I kinda lean in that direction. Tsk, tsk.
It is a shame to get interrupted by deployment. My wish for him is to be safe and come home to build more bikes and parts.
Sri, Fine business sir. You are correct. I've got several tasks to accomplish before addressing the fork/fender plate. It is a barely adequate design. It certainly would not hold up in Haiti. Street machines are OK in Port Au Prince but not out in the bush. Dirt bikes and 50cc step-throughs rule where no asphalt exists. My last trip in Sept I saw 4 (yes four!) Haitians on a step-through "taxi". What a site. Sharing cab fare is universal.
I found a tool kit on this poor thing.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179509/1334030Toolsfromkitb4.jpg)
What would I have gotten in 1980 if I had bought it off the showroom floor?
I am certain the binder clips are not Suzuki standard issue. They were in the kit, I swear! Further more, just to show my ignorance, what's the spanner on the lower right for? The phillips screwdriver shank does not fit into any of the sub-items. The lower left item is a squashed tube that may fit over the box end wrenches.
The spanner wrench is for the shock preload adjuster. The screwdriver is supposed to fit in the spark plug socket but it may not be original issue.
Quote from: starwaltI found a tool kit on this poor thing.
What would I have gotten in 1980 if I had bought it off the showroom floor?
See
JohNLA's 2002 toolkit
HERE.
Quote from: starwaltwhat's the spanner on the lower right for?
That's for adjusting the preload on your rear shock. (Good luck with it! :roll: )
Well, well GSTwinners, no "goat's" here.
Here's my rotor for all to see:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179572/1334255RotoronEngine.jpg)
And now my stator:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179572/1334261StatoronCover.jpg)
Is the oil normal in this area? I drained the oil prior to this. The lower two cover bolts had oil goop out while removing them. I am not accustomed to generators having oil slinging around the rotor and winding sections.
I think the problem is the starter motor. I tried to rotate that by hand with no joy. A socket and ratchet on the rotor bolt gave smooth turning and wheezing sounds due to compression or exhaust cycle (tranny was in neutral before starting all this). Which way is normal rotation direction from the rotor perspective? If I get the starter motor out tonight, I will post some pics in this thread.
So if the starter motor is locked up, does that qualify me for a disease name? :?
From the point you are looking at it in photo #1 ... the crank turns counter clockwise ... so the starter motor also goes counter clockwise, cos the idler turns clockwise ... and OK that starter motor being stuck ... will be Starwalt's syndrome ... :lol: ... if it is that ...else no disease named after you ... :lol:
Cool.
Srinath.
And yea oil in the stator/rotor is normal ... even if you drained it.
Cool.
Srinath.
The mystery of the engine seizure has been solved. Here's the damaged component:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179572/1334471Destroyed1.jpg)
All the armature contacts have been ripped away from the shaft. The windings are spiraled and twisted like wicker furniture! The brush mount is severly bent. My guess is that a brush piece let go at speed. The previous owner said that he was cruising about 40 mph when this happend.
It just goes to show how mechanical advantage could stop a running motor. Maybe this explains some of the electrical damage I found. The Positive lead was just connected by this junk to ground.
Neat in a destructive testing sort of way huh?
That destroyed starter will explain the over heated battery cable. At least this is an easy fix.
Sorry to hear that you have a "disease" named after you. (Glad Srinath did not see the thread where I had some engine problems. ;) )
An easy way to remember the crank rotation is that it turns the same direction as the wheels.
OK that is now starwalt's disease ... or do you like syndrome ... Disease sounds better cos it goes better with Starwalt ...
BTW how would that even happen ... at 40 mph the starter doesn't spin ...
The crank turns but the starter clutch will prevent the gear on the back of the rotor from spinning ... if the starter clutch even worked ... whihc will be the next check... easy ... spin the gear on the back of the rotor counter clockwise, should not spin, spin it clockwise and it should free wheel... That's the gear ... crank will be opposite ...
Cool.
Srinath.
I thought it was unusual that the starter should be destroyed. Since there is no "Bendix" in this motor, I knew something would have to drop the starter out of the motor chain once ignition took off.
The gear on the back of the rotor does not free wheel in either direction. That would explain why the poor starter motor could not take it. If we knew the crankshaft rpm at 40 mph and the gear ratio for the starter gear, idler, and the motor train, we would probably be impressed at the rpm the starter motor was turning when it gave up. :o
I have heard of industrial motors doing the same thing when their Do Not Exceed RPM was passed. The heavy metal parts, i.e. armature contacts, want to find the outside of the motor.
I may yet have to pull the rotor to correct this problem.
Bad starter clutch ... be careful when you get that rotor magnet off ... easy to destroy it ... mine had to have a hole drilled in it and a S shaped metal rod shoved in it and hooked to foot eg before it will even come off ... then the sliding hammer I made had to be welded to it and as I slid the hammer it shattered the magnet ... but mine was already looking like it got hit by a freight train... You I believe sir are going to need a healthy slice of luck ... and I wish you get that luck ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Just an update on progress - none! I have attempted to remove the primary bolt a few different ways. Of late I have been working on a rotor clamping tool that would work with a jack stand to firmly hold onto the flat sections of the rotor cone behind the bolt - no stress on the outside or magnets mounts.
Prototype 2 almost did the trick.
I am on prototype 3 and had to stop after I busted a tap in a piece. :x
A strap wrench didn't work. I did see a strap wrench I would consider but the horror stories of destroyed magnet from removal of the rotor makes me a little wary. In the case of "goat's" it did not matter if more magnets were busted. In this case the rotor must come out clean to get to the starter clutch.
Gonna pick up a parts GS sans motor mainly for the wheels and electrical.
Where's that luck sri?
The Haynes manual recommends a "rotor holding strap or tool", or else put the bike in-gear with rear brake applied, or else a wrench on the flat parts at the center of the rotor (sounds like that's what your jig is supposed to do).
And the broken tap?... just weld the jig together :) .
Yes oh how I wish I could weld. I plan to take a couple of courses at the local junior college just for this type of thing. Half of my job is mechanical, the other half electronic/electrical. I can make circuit boards for my projects yet cannot melt two pieces of similar metals together. I plan to learn to do that before I die of natural causes. :lol:
The mechanical attachment allows for adjustment. A 'Z' bend in a 22mm wrench would about do it. The only problem is weakening the wrench and if the wrench would be hefty enough. That's why the tool. I'll post the final solution here.
Keep at it! I'm sure several of us will be interested in the solution you come up with.
Quote from: starwaltJust an update on progress - none! I have attempted to remove the primary bolt a few different ways. Of late I have been working on a rotor clamping tool that would work with a jack stand to firmly hold onto the flat sections of the rotor cone behind the bolt - no stress on the outside or magnets mounts.
Prototype 2 almost did the trick.
I am on prototype 3 and had to stop after I busted a tap in a piece. :x
A strap wrench didn't work. I did see a strap wrench I would consider but the horror stories of destroyed magnet from removal of the rotor makes me a little wary. In the case of "goat's" it did not matter if more magnets were busted. In this case the rotor must come out clean to get to the starter clutch.
Gonna pick up a parts GS sans motor mainly for the wheels and electrical.
Where's that luck sri?
OK if your starter clutch is stuck ... stick a penny between the drive gear and the idler and try it... but that rotor is no picnic ... now the screw up in my bike ... 3 months after fixing goats, my starter clutch clunked yesterday ... WTF ... I rode it the day before and it was fine, and I hadn't started it in 2 weeks, it clunked the next day after a ride ... if the damn thing clunks again I am opening it ... :x
Cool.
Srinath.
I have a mig welder in my shop and access to a shear, break, iron worker and other typical equipment at work if needed.
Super D! I appreciate the offer. It would be a great excuse to get together and compare notes. For the last couple of hours I have been thinking about the CA guy's fuse popping problem.
Took apart the clutch handle assembly on the ebay bike and found another problem. The peg that moves the switch contacts for the clutch switch broke off. Tracing the wires back to the headlight bucket I found the two wires to the switch plugged into each other! :?
I also found the clutch cable ferrule broken off at the head end. It is a nickle-dime item but just another thing to replace.
I pulled the choke cable that wasn't working and dropped oil into the shaft to see if it will slide. We will see if that needs to be replaced also.
Shade tree mechanics could not have done a worse job of maintenance. This bike must have been someone's Buddha Loves You they beat daily.
Some people shouldn't have nice things.
Quote from: starwaltTook apart the clutch handle assembly on the ebay bike and found another problem. The peg that moves the switch contacts for the clutch switch broke off. Tracing the wires back to the headlight bucket I found the two wires to the switch plugged into each other! :?
Sounds like they just by-passed having to pull th eclutch in to start.
Rotor bolt removal update - no joy in Mudville!
Rotor clamp prototype 3 was a wash (too big, wouldn't fit) so I revisited P2 modified. I managed to almost destroy P2 with no sign of bolt turning loose.
Reality Check time - this bolt does come out anti-clockwise doesn't it? :?
In other words, does the rotor bolt have right hand threads?
If left hand, that would explain much.
To get some successful things done, I did electrical work and instrument cleanup.
Quote from: starwaltRotor bolt removal update - no joy in Mudville!
Rotor clamp prototype 3 was a wash (too big, wouldn't fit) so I revisited P2 modified. I managed to almost destroy P2 with no sign of bolt turning loose.
Reality Check time - this bolt does come out anti-clockwise doesn't it? :?
In other words, does the rotor bolt have right hand threads?
If left hand, that would explain much.
To get some successful things done, I did electrical work and instrument cleanup.
are you talking about the bolt holds the magnet on? just put the bike in gear; and hold onto the rear brake...l
Quote from: se7enty7are you talking about the bolt holds the magnet on? just put the bike in gear; and hold onto the rear brake...l
Yes and Yes it worked only in modified form. :oops:
I used the "Broussard" method (found with a Search for 'bolt AND rotor' from 2003): Bike in gear, padded metal bar across swing arm to hold the wheel. My 1/2 drive Craftsman ratchet and 19mm socket backed it out as pretty as you please.
Screw the magic tool concept. Let the machine do most of the work.
Thanks for the patience with a m/c newbie. :lol:
Now where is that gear puller?
Quote from: starwaltQuote from: se7enty7are you talking about the bolt holds the magnet on? just put the bike in gear; and hold onto the rear brake...l
Yes and Yes it worked only in modified form. :oops:
I used the "Broussard" method (found with a Search for 'bolt AND rotor' from 2003): Bike in gear, padded metal bar across swing arm to hold the wheel. My 1/2 drive Craftsman ratchet and 19mm socket backed it out as pretty as you please.
Screw the magic tool concept. Let the machine do most of the work.
Thanks for the patience with a m/c newbie. :lol:
Now where is that gear puller?
I had goats, and I have/found a gear puller that works perfectly. A little too small, too big, or puller arms that are too long or too short and it won't work.
downside is that it destroys the (Expensive) magnet in the process... although it seems like the slide hammer method would destroy it too... so I dunno..
OK my magnet bolt didn't come off with the bike in gear, and bar across swingarm method... the clutch slipped :x ... I had to drill a hole in magnet and use an S shaped rod hooked to foot peg :mrgreen: ... then the slide hammer ... had to be screwed in then welded on after it ate the threads :mrgreen: , then of course the rotor was already in a million pieces :x , so it rendered a million piece rotor into 2 million pieces :lol:
Cool.
Srinath.
That vortex looks sweet! That starter motor looked fubared.
Srinath, I found that luck you were wishing me.
I was shopping for a gear puller and saw the sign for the Cummins tool truck sale at a local motel. They have a mix of high and low quality stuff and I was looking for a fair quality gear puller to do the rotor removal deed. "Bo" gave me a little clipboard with the shopping list and a pen when I walked into the lobby of the motel. "Do you have a gear puller, 3 jaw?" I asked. "Yeah, let me find it" he replied. I thought he should use a different hair color next time but that was only a personal observation. He finally found the puller but the price was over $40. The $10 sliding-hammer dent puller sitting next to the gear puller caught my eye.
"Would you say that the shaft on this is about 14 mm?" I asked. Bo's eyes glazed over and I then asked him if he had a metric caliper. "Yeah, let me find it" he replied again. I had previously spotted the digital caliper and found it to be inoperative - no batteries. My trusty slide cal was in the car. After discovering that his was dead, I told him I would be right back with mine. Bingo! 15mm diameter at the threads max.
After paying and picking up the item. I stopped by the industrial tool place to pick up the 14 x 1.5 die previously scouted out. Now home to the garage for the transformation.
Take one cheap a$$ dent puller
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180599/1342975Dentpullerbox.jpg)
Insert into a drill press and file the threads nearly off. 14mm diameter or slightly larger. (Posed shot - I did have my safety glasses on!)
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180599/1342986Turningdowntheshaftcropped.jpg)
Secure the shaft of the puller in your favorite vise and start threading a 14 x 1.5 die onto the shaft.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180599/1342922wrenchondieonrod.jpg)
Make sure you use plenty of cutting oil and work the die back and forth slowly. No rush - you've got plenty of time.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180599/1343028Dieonrod1cropped.jpg)
After cleaning the shaft, assemble your new tool and screw it into the rotor that is on the bike.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180599/1342927toolonrotoronbike.jpg)
I honestly only used a test bump to get a feel for the amount of stuck that the rotor had. It came right off!!! Honest!! :)
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180599/13429381bumpandoff.jpg)
You would be happy too if your rotor came off this easy.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180599/1342940Dougnrotor1.jpg)
Now, on to the rotor clutch and find out what's up with it.
Happy indeed! Good job, Doug. :thumb:
And thanks for the photo journal! :)
When one obstacle is overcome it seems another pops up to take revenge for the previous one.
The starter gear is stuck on the starter clutch. Nothing will jiggle, slip, budge or move. It has been soaked in WD40, tapped on with hammers, wedged with simultaneous screwdrivers, clamped into a vise and twisted with abandon, yet in spite of all that it does not move. :x
I am considering two possibilities:
1) Drill out the clutch screws from the rotor magnet side to allow the clutch/starter gear to be removed from the rotor.
PRO - screws are cheap and easy to replace
CON - the screws are case hardend and will probably wreck several bits and just might take years to remove.
2) Drill out the starter gear on the back side sufficient to remove the clutch screws and thus free the assembly...
PRO - probably easier than drilling case hardend screws. may not affect the performance of the starter gear and it may need to be replaced anyway if damaged by the clutch rollers
CON - removes material from the starter gear
Looking over the posts via a search for rotor AND starter AND clutch didn't show much new and even found some with the opposite problem - clutch not holding.
OK Srinath, Starwalt's Disease is a fragged starter motor caused by a seized starter clutch.
Remedies are complete assembly replacement or surgery with transplants as needed.
I am leaning toward #2 above.
If Necessity is the Mother of Invention, Social Services should have placed Invention in a foster home long ago. Necessity is a child abuser.
OK thats one stuck ass mofo...
I would find the direction the gear will spin free ... and turn it that way ... now the gear is toast, the clutch is toast ... your only good part in that mess is the rotor and the thing that holds the starter clutch ...
I'd not touch the rotor no matter what ... I'll try to unscrew the starter clutch unit off the rotor ... I dont think the bolts are hardened ... They are good quality bolts but hey put left handed drill bits in the drill press and start drilling it in reverse ... and should have one back out in a few mins.
Cool.
Srinath.
The autopsy has been performed and the results are in. The starter gear seized up due to material from the starter clutch shim plate embedding itself into the gear shaft.
Here is how I found out:
I decided to drill out the screw from the rotor side. The case hardend screws are M8 x 1.25 and drilled out easy. I drilled completely through the entire length and out the socket head.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/1343910Drilloutclutchscrews.jpg)
I made a jig that suported the assembly on sleeves that passed through the starter gear holes. The idea is to drive the gear off the clutch by striking a drift inserted through the holes drilled in the screws.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/1343911Hammeroutgear.jpg)
Another shot of the jig from the top side showing the drift. It is in the upper right corner near the wrench.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/1343912Hammerouttopview.jpg)
Free at last!! The hammering wasn't too gross but I did have to rotate around to progressively push the gear off.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/1343913Startergearfree.jpg)
What happened? Here's a closeup of the starter gear. Look around the outside edges of the central portion.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/1343914Startergeardamage.jpg)
If the previous wasn't clear, I have marked the area of interest with two red circles. Look between them.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/1343916Startergeardamagenoted.jpg)
OK. If the previous two are worthless to you, here's an obvious one. The pieces missing from this are stuck in the starter gear. This is the shim plate between the rotor and the clutch. The starter gear was rubbing on the shim plate and grabbed it taking pieces with it. Notice also the "Y" shapes worn where the clutch dogs move.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/1343921Shimplatedamage.jpg)
Here's the business side of the clutch. The Haynes manual shows this from the other side but here you can see the mechanisms clearly. This works fine.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/1343926Thisisyourstarterclutch.jpg)
Here's the backside of the rotor plate. As of 12/09 @ 10:15, I am still picking drilled out threads from the rotor. Such is life for an anal, frustrated machininst wanna-be.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180718/1343935Rotorbackside.jpg)
So that's it. Now we all know why the poor starter motor was killed. I guess that Starwalt's Disease needs more detailed definition. If your starter gear seizes on the rotor/starter clutch assembly due to starter gear shim plate interaction, you have Starwalt's Disease.
Thank you for your attention! Refreshments are being served in the lobby!
hm. What made the two contact each other in the first place, I wonder..
Wowee .... good job ... starter gear getting eaten and making the starter clutch not dis engage and taking the starter for a 1,000,000 rpm ride ... = Startwalts disease... whooo hooo... I had forgotten that the bolts come through to the rotor side with their tail end ... but good you drilled there ...
I will now take mine apart when the damn place will stop raining ... and look for it ... I had a new everything ... especially a totally new starter clutch and near new engaging gear but it still clunked last week... WTF ... I cleaned everything to the point my wife wanted me to sleep with it ... :x
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: seshadri_srinathWowee .... good job ... starter gear getting eaten and making the starter clutch not dis engage and taking the starter for a 1,000,000 rpm ride ... = Startwalts disease... whooo hooo... I had forgotten that the bolts come through to the rotor side with their tail end ... but good you drilled there ...
I will now take mine apart when the damn place will stop raining ... and look for it ... I had a new everything ... especially a totally new starter clutch and near new engaging gear but it still clunked last week... WTF ... I cleaned everything to the point my wife wanted me to sleep with it ... :x
Cool.
Srinath.
maybe you have goats again... I'm still stuck on my bent case cover theory.
I will look carefully this time at the case cover ... Starter clutch is my guess though ... case cover will make a noise at all rpm all the time ... this sounded exactly like the sledge hammer from the inside I was used to hearing when my starter clutch was bad.
Cool.
Srinath.
In retrospect I should have used a bit just larger than the drift diameter. That way the screws would have been intact, the drift would still get to the starter gear, and I would not STILL be working on getting the freakin drilled out screws from the rotor! :x
Past experience had the screw material falling out of the drilled out fastener but not this time. :guns:
Oh well.
Quote from: se7enty7hm. What made the two contact each other in the first place, I wonder..
My question exactly. I see nothing in the parts listings to show they do or do not. If they do, one would think there would be a roller bearing to keep the affect I found from happening. I suspect they should not.
After I get the rotor and starter gear cleaned up, I plan to see how much they play together. There was some junk inside the crankshaft after I pulled the retention bolt out. I suspected it was old loctite or somesuch thing.
In my starter clutch ... there were distinct teeth type marks on the engagement part of that starter gear ... somehow the starter clutch seems to make small bite marks as it engages.
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: seshadri_srinathIn my starter clutch ... there were distinct teeth type marks on the engagement part of that starter gear ... somehow the starter clutch seems to make small bite marks as it engages.
Cool.
Srinath.
hmm..
my bike didn't make any noise.. it made a 'clunking' noise the first time I started it.. then never again..
Yea sometimes it will clunk a bit on startup, and then never, but a bent case might make it scrape more than just 1 time, now mine when it was dead .... made serious scraping noises most of the time at low speed...
BTW the noise is loud and the vibes through the bike and bad that instant.
Cool.
Srinath.
The rotor is now clean! :cheers:
I went by my machine tool place and told him my problem. The 6.8 mm drill bit I bought did the trick. I had not used a large enough bit to removed enough material for the tap to bite.
I drilled out the remnants of the old screws. The 8mm tap did the rest. :)
Now to clean up the starter gear and try to analyze why it decided to chew on the shim. The shim must be replaced but the starter gear may be OK.
Wowee man ... you just blew my mind ... I swapped out rotor, gear, clutch and everyhitng but never checked if the engagements were right ... now I better open it and check, and where is the specs written up ... manual??? clymers ??? haynes ???
I better get on the horn and kick the dude that's got my manual for the last 6 months ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: seshadri_srinathWowee man ... you just blew my mind ... I swapped out rotor, gear, clutch and everyhitng but never checked if the engagements were right ... now I better open it and check, and where is the specs written up ... manual??? clymers ??? haynes ???
I better get on the horn and kick the dude that's got my manual for the last 6 months ...
Cool.
Srinath.
engagements were right for what? between what gears?
The starter clutch engaging and dis engaging is what I was referring to not drive gears ... Now the shim os on the back of the magnet and they want the clutch to grip the gear at the right place ... to faar off the end and it might 1/2 bite and wear, too far in and OK no idea ... but hit the vertical face of the gear maybe... so ... the shim was the right thickness to let that happen ... I didn't check mine ... worth trying since my problem seems to have shown up again.
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: seshadri_srinathThe starter clutch engaging and dis engaging is what I was referring to not drive gears ... Now the shim os on the back of the magnet and they want the clutch to grip the gear at the right place ... to faar off the end and it might 1/2 bite and wear, too far in and OK no idea ... but hit the vertical face of the gear maybe... so ... the shim was the right thickness to let that happen ... I didn't check mine ... worth trying since my problem seems to have shown up again.
Cool.
Srinath.
I didn't notice or check mine.. hmm
Yea I know neither did I ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Srinath is talking about the clutch rollers, "dogs" by my name, and the small indentations they leave on the starter gear shaft. Each time you start the motor and they engage, they leave 3 rectangular depressions across the face of the starter gear shaft. This is just a fact of engagement and material strength. These depressions are in line with the crankshaft. The crankshaft leads me to my next paragraph.
The starter gear has a brass liner with a hole and machined channels for the distribution of oil that is sourced from the hole in the crankshaft. If insufficient oil exits the crankshaft hole, insufficient oil gets into the channels. Not enough oil in the channels, not enough oil to prevent the starter gear from getting cozy with the shim or the opposite side of the starter gear and the crankshaft. IF a suffciently small particle escapes into this oil delivery system and gets between the starter gear and the shim...munch, chew, chomp.
As the crankshaft turns, and assuming oil pressure is correct, a spurt of oil will be delivered into the channels when the two holes line up. Remember that the starter gear should be at a near standstill after the motor is running. The crankshaft is turning inside the brass liner after ignition. The slight mechanical resistance of the starter motor is all that keeps the starter gear from freewheeling with the crankshaft due to fluid resistance (think torque convertor).
With my starter gear on the crankshaft, I have a little "play" between the crankshaft and the brass liner of the starter gear. How much is too much? Clymer does not say.
I think my failure was due to insufficient oil delivery to the outside of the starter gear and the shim. The oil pump and pressure is way first on my list of things to check after I get this part of the engine assembled.
Just picked up an issue of a Brit Cycle magazine - Classic & Motorcycle Mechanics. They are rebuilding a GS750 engine. I missed issue 202 August and don't know the whole story. These guys are welding broken fins back and really pulling out the stops. Issue 204 October shows that at one time Suzuki used roller bearings under the starter gear. It also mentions a bronze thrust washer for crankshaft-wise movement reduction.
From 204:
"The generator rotor fits on a taper on the crank end and is usually bullet-proof - some bikes do suffer from the rotor coming loose on the taper end and, if there's any sign of problems here, I'd lap the tapers in with a little grinding paste before assembling."
Some form of thrust washer wouldn't be a bad thing if I knew that oil could get between the clutch shim, the washer, and the starter gear.
Issue 203 has a couple of good shots of the starter gear and clutch.
The mag is a little expensive and I can only find it at Books-A-Million. Of course it does have to come a long way to my shelf.
I've got photos of the starter gear operation over in the FAQ section now. Whoooeeee! If my mom understood me, she would be impressed. Come to think of it, my kids don't understand me either. Oh well.
Quote from: starwaltSrinath is talking about the clutch rollers, "dogs" by my name, and the small indentations they leave on the starter gear shaft. Each time you start the motor and they engage, they leave 3 rectangular depressions across the face of the starter gear shaft. This is just a fact of engagement and material strength. These depressions are in line with the crankshaft. The crankshaft leads me to my next paragraph.
The starter gear has a brass liner with a hole and machined channels for the distribution of oil that is sourced from the hole in the crankshaft. If insufficient oil exits the crankshaft hole, insufficient oil gets into the channels. Not enough oil in the channels, not enough oil to prevent the starter gear from getting cozy with the shim or the opposite side of the starter gear and the crankshaft. IF a suffciently small particle escapes into this oil delivery system and gets between the starter gear and the shim...munch, chew, chomp.
As the crankshaft turns, and assuming oil pressure is correct, a spurt of oil will be delivered into the channels when the two holes line up. Remember that the starter gear should be at a near standstill after the motor is running. The crankshaft is turning inside the brass liner after ignition. The slight mechanical resistance of the starter motor is all that keeps the starter gear from freewheeling with the crankshaft due to fluid resistance (think torque convertor).
With my starter gear on the crankshaft, I have a little "play" between the crankshaft and the brass liner of the starter gear. How much is too much? Clymer does not say.
I think my failure was due to insufficient oil delivery to the outside of the starter gear and the shim. The oil pump and pressure is way first on my list of things to check after I get this part of the engine assembled.
OK I should check for oil pressure as well ... BTW You know how to make a oil pressure guage ...
There is a chrome plated bolt on the right bottom of bike that is a direct block off on the oil galley ... take it off and drill and tap it to take a banjo bolt, then banjo bolt and run a #3 line to the oil pressure guage ... which is a standard auto parts item, buy good quality ... like a auto meter ... my cheap ass guage blew and sprayed my right side and a goodly portion of I-5 south of sacramento with 20W50 (Between elk grove and the next exit for those that know ... on a fateful day back in 1998 triggering a series of events that resulted in my wife rolling the truck 3 hours later, 2 weeks before we were to set off for Canada with all our lifes possessions in tow) ... but I digress ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Let's leave the engine for a little while and look at another area of the bike. I noticed the handle bars were bent and removed them. I will deal with the handle bars on a later post.
After I got the bars off, I noticed something about the fork tubes as they come up the top piece. See if you notice too.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180948/1346121HBmount2.jpg)
What's up with that? Impact damage?
If it is not obvious to you, notice the tube on the right (left fork tube) pokes up about an 1/8" farther than the tube on the left (right fork tube).
New sub-topic. Go!
Could be impact, could be a poor reassembly job. Either way, do your forks look bent? If not, no prob, easy fix. :thumb:
impact damage....the fork would be bent!
that is due to a couple of bolts not being tight enough....
loosen the fork leg up in the clamps and pull it down...then retighten....properly ;)
Nope ... does not mean damage ... does mean one clamp is tighter than other ... also one tube has a extra large speck of rust ... or other shaZam!.
I have been trying to fit clip on's of late on the bike... I should know ... this shaZam! is common if you try to slide them up into the triple. Getting hem equal is no joke.
Cool.
Srinath.
The great thing about motorcycles is they attract gearheads. My nephew is one. I've got to get him interested in the GS so that when he is older he won't have any trouble getting a date. :lol:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/181068/1347111Bryan4.jpg)
We pulled the right side cover just to see what is up in there. No chunks of metal or debris fell out. It is about time I caught a break.
One thing I noticed - tell me if this is normal.
With the bike in gear, if I rotate the rear tire, it moves several inches before the drivetrain seems to catch. This is the case with movement in either direction. By "catching" I mean when the "slack" is taken up, the clutch begins to move and consequently the crankshaft, etc.
I know mc's have no reverse but it seems to be a lot of gear backlash prior to engagement.
What say ye the group?
Mostly drive train lash in the GS is chain slack ... No real other lash is there ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Since the last post I have repaired the tachometer mounting posts and experimented with LED replacements for lamps.
A couple of shots of the tach repair:
The nuts on the mounting posts were hard to get off even after the posts were broken. With age and vibration, it is no wonder they snapped.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1348840Tach1b4.jpg)
I am using black electrical tape as a dam and 5 minute epoxy for casting resin.
One side complete!
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1348845Tach4glu1.jpg)
The finished product.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1348847Tach6glufin.jpg)
Now for electronics.
Here you see a meter and the current draw of one lamp, nearly 1/4 amp!
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1351014bulbandmeter.jpg)
An jumbo yellow LED draws about 1/4 (at max allowed) the current of the lamp.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1351015LEDandmeter.jpg)
Now this might seem like a good idea for a lamp replacement. From a power use perspective it is. From an application perspective, not so. Here's a shot of a lamp in the tach in simulated darkness. (Sorry about the blurr)
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1351031Bulbintach1.jpg)
Same meter with the LED. Notice the shadow between 5 and 8 caused by the metal heat shield in the tach housing.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1351032LEDinTach2.jpg)
Why such bad performance from the LED? LEDs are directional with their light. Bulbs are omnidirectional. LEDs are great for directional lighting, ie indicators and Brake lamps (in clusters with lensing). Our GS instrument housings were designed for lamps that have omnidirectional ability. A modified housing could be used for LED illumination of the existing face plate.
One thing in the tach shots to notice is the affect of fading black paint. Sun fade causes the "star glow" in the upper half of the tach. I can think of no fix for this except replacement or recovering the face with another identical plate.
More to come - stay tuned.
what about those multi-directional led's? What about using aluminum foil to make some sort of 'hood' to help disperse the light?
The problem with led's is that if you want to light something up you have to use a bunch of them, and even if you use alot of them there light is very diretional compared to that of auto mini-blulb. If your really wanted to you could find a way to put an array of them in the housing, but that would be way to much work
As far as the hood, you actuall have to put the bulb in backwards, so it faces to the rear of the tac, and then producing some sort of reflection device.
The color of the plastic housing for the tach and speedo is the reflective part of the original system. I actually have another plan for the instruments and it does involve LEDs.
I haven't posted the pics yet but I cut the retention ring off a tach from a junk GS. The meter face was totally faded out (I am working on another idea for that) and the ring was bent. It is an easy enough chore with the right tools and I may modify the process yet.
The idea is to modify the housing with an array of LEDs so that their coverage pattern overlaps. Much light is wasted on the black backround of the instrument. If the backround were white....(oops don't want to speak too soon).
I also spent some time researching the theory of the tach. It is referred to as an eddy-current tach. A spinning magnet is inside a conductive cup. The cup has a shaft attached to its center. That shaft has a fine spring providing torsional force against the eddy currents induced by the magnet (read that as return to Zero RPM). The faster the magnet spins the more current is induced in the bell, the more magnetic field is induced in the bell, the more it rotates in the direction of the magnet.
Simple operation but I sure would not want to do the equation a physics instructor would put together on it. Much rotational forces, omegas, dV/dt, and such.
More to come.
So you say that the inside of your tach or speedo has crap or moisture or some other stuff that's driving you nuts? Here's a sure warranty violation method that will allow you access to the inside of the glass and may just lead to some other developments in the wings.
First spend several days developing a rotating electric table that make filing away the back side of the aluminum crimp ring easier and less messy than using a Dremel. The rotation speed of the table cannot be too fast. You need to be able to sense when the thing is trying to toss your tach or speedo across the room. I used a 24 VDC gear motor run at 12 VDC to start and then 24 when I was more confident.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1358069tachfiling2.jpg)
Here you see the setup at rest.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1358075filingtable1.jpg)
And the desired results that allow you to get to the inside of the glass AND put it back on without looking like you used a fire axe to get into it. :lol:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1358087tachspeedoapart.jpg)
With a little effort you can get a good looking instrument and be able to clean both sides of the glass.
Hmmm? What else can we do when in there?
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1358113jpegteaser1.jpg)
Anybody try this before?
Opening that guage is easy ... use a pick and a small screwdriver.
Closing is easy as well ... sit it on a cloth and sue a drift type punch but have the tip set to sit on that edge ... in the end ... it will entirely even out ... and last part use a PVC pipe or aluminum pipe and sit it on the edge and knock away ...
BTW jared had white face guages templated and stuff and some people also bought from him. Fun in doing and your table spinning looks cool is a bit complicated ...
Cool.
Srinath.
You weren't planning to put that table in Reverse and "file away the miles" were you? :nono:
Just kidding. Besides, I don't even know if it would even work on these speedos. Honest!
It does take a little time to remove the ring on the back side of the gear. The postive side to this is being able to lightly tack it back on with Black RTV and remove it at will. I did the first one with a Dremel. Ughhh! Messy!
I also considered leaving the ring in place and cutting the housing away. The layer of housing removed would be insignificant but the possiblitiy of hitting a bump and having an instrument break in two wasn't too cool.
It is good to know someone else has toyed with withface gauges. Did Jared use a transparent film on new dial plastic or just cover it up with paper? It is time consuming and I am surprised Suzuki just doesn't offer it as an option. My company car has them. Go figure.
No Kerry, odometer tinkering is a federal offense. I am a warranty breaker! Different thing. The junk bike used to experiment with had a mashed odometer. A few minutes of looking it over convinced me that it takes someone with way more time on their hands than me to fiddle with it.
Oh, the rotating table has more things in store for it than gaining access to instruments. How about an ignition simulator? Why do that? Test-bed for a uP system monitor. I gotta have some kind of senior project in several semesters and I don't think my E-zuki will be ready by then. :)
OK then I wont post the 2 min turning back trick ... Works well albeit somewhat limited scope ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Srinath, are those black helicopters I see circling over your place? :o If you happen to notice several SUVs with dark windows hanging around, head for Murphy, NC. You might be able to hook up with friends of Mr. Rudolph.
On the other hand, nobody probably cares if 15 year old motorcycle odometers are tinkered with...diconnecting the speedo cable does the same thing...sorta. There should be a direct rpm/gear ratio/speed relationship.
And for that matter, why does putting an internal combustion engine of a certain size in/on something make it suddenly interesting to a government? Being able to tax something must have criteria I guess.
How is it coming, Starwalt?
I just got my black GS off e-bay for $700. No keys and wasn't sure it had run in years.
New battery. Changed gas. Fires right up and pulls strong.
:cheers:
Hey, I'd rather be lucky than good.
Being Lucky is great when it comes to Ebay. Congratulations on your win Jake D!
I received a starter motor, wrong size (pics are posted on my webpage) but I have one lined up with a GStwinner and will probably buy another listed on ebay also (covering my 6).
Work has kept me buried the last couple of days so the holiday will see some GS time for sure. I am really excited to get it running so that I can ride and practice skill building. No racing aspirations here although I must admit to the attraction of going fast. 8)
It would be fun to wrench for a race team, endurance perhaps. I have a few things to do before getting involved with that.
So you have cut open all the tachs and speedos in your garage and are looking for something to do with your rotating table?
Make an ingition simulator/tester!
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1366924simulatormeter.jpg)
Knowing what the output of the signal generator is can be helpful in troubleshooting a suspected ignition problem. If the bike won't run, how can you test it?
I connected the outputs of the signal coils to 27K ohm resistors to provide a reference. I then scoped both channels at the high end of the resistors. Actually a 1K would probably work. I just couldn't find two of them quickly.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1366922simulatorside.jpg)
Here's what the output looks like.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1366926scope1.jpg)
Notice that the pulses are out of phase. Makes sense because the coils are mounted directly opposite each other. The time between the same two peaks of one waveform is a possible electrical source for RPM. It is more accurate than the eddy current tach and can be reocrded by a computer system if one should have one on said bike.
Enough said for now. :)
Doug......do you think making a off-bike tester for the stator is feasible?
Hey duuuuude ... I have a rear projection TV I need to have tested ... I should cart it down to you I think ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: dgyverDoug......do you think making a off-bike tester for the stator is feasible?
D, you are reading my mind! :o
The tough part is the swinging mass of the rotor. Not really tough but it must be constructed so as not to kill surrounding people if something tries to turn loose or create Goat's Syndrome outside the bike. I've got several electric motor candidates for the project. It would require a little welding and heavy machining to be safe.
The unknown is - Optimum RPM above which no more juice comes from the stator. That would dictate the motor or gearing to get the RPM needed.
With the signal gen setup, the more RPM, the larger the amplitude of the signal. That makes sense because the magnetic field moved by the timing rotor gets hit faster and faster giving it less time to decay.
Srinath - doesn't your set come with a 3 year warranty? I've got a ham radio buddy I usually defer TV problems to. If not him, another tech school classmate also has a TV shop. Those guys took vows of poverty before getting in that business. :lol:
It had a 1 year or somehting ... now it died in early 2001 ... I bought it in Canada in 1999, and it sat till last year, then It sat at the repair guy's shop ... Still there ... not a clue ... I traced it to a TP where I had to test the waveform and the voltages ... all else were OK ... The way it failed - picture folded in 1/2 vertically ... and I fiddled with the spread or something ... vertical something ... and it was OK till the next day it folded into nothing ... I basically wanted to swap out 1 capacitor and 1 IC ... that TP actually says about 2 IC's I swapped both and the cap ... and still nothing ... now that guy said its was acting strange ... everytime you switch it on ... It may be perfect, or be a total loss ... Not a clue what was causing it... now I have 1/2 a mind to take it back and turn it on and off till I like the pic and then it stays on ... I dont mind ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Hmmmm...the old collapsing vertical sync syndrome eh?
It is either the vertical drive to the power components or the power components themselves if the horizonal was fine. Schematics are absolutely necessary since about 1979. Unless one is familiar with a brand (read that as being in the business), anything else is guesswork without the schematic.
Calling around to shops that service the brand and asking if they have the same set with anther problem may not be a waste of time. Often manufacturers have one or two base boards they make with options and features that vary. Many times shops have sets that are abandoned. They often pitch the cabinet and keep the most useful items. Often too they haul a load to the landfill because of too many spares.
Insurance work after thunderstorms is their bread and butter. VCRs and DVD players? Disposable.
Subject change: Stator tester parts
1 each wornout GS500 crankshaft (need the end with the taper)
1 each good rotor
1 each rotor retention bolt
1 each stator
1 each wiring harness or partial harness with RR and sufficient stuff to make a load on same RR.
1 each electric motor to turn rotor at sufficient RPM to simulate engine.
Asst. parts - framework (metal or wood), bearings to support modified crankshaft, coupling between mod. shaft and electric drive motor, control circuitry (On-Off switch or speed controller to get fancy), nuts, bolts, machine tool to cut crankshaft, time to make it work.
Sounds easy enough. :roll:
It took about 4 hours to get a decent coupling between the ignition rotor and the motor I used for the simulator. Even at that the max RPM is around 2K before imbalance/off center issues make scary noises. My biggest concern is the ig rotor hitting the magnet posts. I did not want to make a signal generator destroyer. :lol:
Quote from: starwaltSubject change: Stator tester parts
1 each wornout GS500 crankshaft (need the end with the taper)
1 each good rotor
1 each rotor retention bolt
1 each stator
1 each wiring harness or partial harness with RR and sufficient stuff to make a load on same RR.
1 each electric motor to turn rotor at sufficient RPM to simulate engine.
Asst. parts - framework (metal or wood), bearings to support modified crankshaft, coupling between mod. shaft and electric drive motor, control circuitry (On-Off switch or speed controller to get fancy), nuts, bolts, machine tool to cut crankshaft, time to make it work.
Sounds easy enough. :roll:
It took about 4 hours to get a decent coupling between the ignition rotor and the motor I used for the simulator. Even at that the max RPM is around 2K before imbalance/off center issues make scary noises. My biggest concern is the ig rotor hitting the magnet posts. I did not want to make a signal generator destroyer. :lol:
I have a bad crank and I probably have most of the rest of the stuff as I just picked up a trailer load of GS parts. Now I have to sort through it all. The only thing that I am not sure I have a spare of is a rotor magnet....but then I have been thinking about building a motor with a total loss electrical system.
It would need to spin at least 3000 rpm and up to 5000 rpm. Easy enough to increase/decrease any motor speed with belts and pulleys. I have a geared reducer but not sure of its capabilities. The equipment (mill, lathe, band saw, welder, etc) and material (plate steel or aluminum, bearings, etc) to make it is not a problem...I have access to most anything...just have to search for it. Now only if I can find the time!
I wondered if track bikes, sprint - not endurance, operated with total loss setups. Change or charge the battery between runs. You could get by with less weight and spinning mass. Not that the stator and rotor add that much. With every speed event, all the little bits add up.
Sounds like we've got a goal for 2005. We will ponder on this more.
Been cleaning up the wiring on the ebay bike. Previous owners either changed the eye stalk signals for these cheap after market items or changed them because wrecks took them out. Either way they did a poor to average job of installation.
Here's the before shot:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1373025Turnsigsb4cmnt.jpg)
And the after shot:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1373026sigfine1.jpg)
A good wiring job does not consume that much time, is easy to learn, and costs very little. It also prevents trouble down the road due to poor connections and oxidation.
Speaking of oxidation, don't let leaky battery acid do this to your battery box:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1373028Battboxesb4.jpg)
The worst one is the donor/junk bike. The better one is the ebay bike. This part is a good candidate for a fiberglass/CF replacment. It is a nonstructural item and would not be that hard to layup.
Oh yea those cheapo turnsignals ... they come with too little wire to make it fit anyhitng ... they have like 4 inches of reach ... I had to splice in and fit it on anyhting I fitted it on ... Now see they want you to cut off your wiring in your T/S's ... so you can never use those as spares ... Ha Ha ... BTW cycle gear make - Moto Boss was the only decent one ... had almost 6 inches of wire ... almost reached on the GS IIRC...
Cool.
Srinath.
New Year's Day was spent cleaning up a bad fenderectomy on the ebay bike.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179509/1373719BadFendecto2.jpg)
Also been pondering the insides of the ON/PRI/RES valve so I decided to break apart the junk donor and do an autopsy on it.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/184613/1377054priresshutoffblowapart.jpg)
Parts are coming from GStwinners davipu and kee. Thanks guys! :thumb:
Well it looks alright from the pics ... anyway to make the thing more of a definete closed when motor is off in on and res ... take that spring that goes against the back plate ... the big spring ... and stretch it ... like to twice its size ... it loses some springness with age ... and will let fuel flow on a full tank ... but not after you stretch it ... BTW standard trick on a concourse/eli ... Also You must have realised you can overbore the petcock ... drill out the fuel passages ... and heck open up the tank petcock and drill it as well ... that plastic conical piece is the bottleneck ... just drill it to the size of the metal tubes ID ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Here's more from the world of electrical testing....
If you have been following this tome, you will know my starter motor needed replacing (see avatar if you jumped in here). After reading several threads about other people's electrical problems, I decided that once I had a working starter motor (thanks to gstwinner davipu :thumb: ), some basic information would be needed. Here's the results of my tests (missed the Cycle World Show in Atlanta and missed meeting some GStwinners too):
I expected the starter motor to draw much current. Just look at the wires connected to it! I initially tried direct measurement. POP! I took out the 15A fuse in my DVM. The silly DVM is rated at 20A on the panel but has a 15A fuse internal. The 20A rating is a time dependent rating. Fuses can handle more than their rated amount for very short spans of time. The fuse element must heat up before melting and opening the circuit. Fuses are designed to "blow" according to a specified profile. Maybe this would be a better FAQ discussion. On with the original thread...
The Setup:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1384975Startmottestonbench.jpg)
The circuit used:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1384960NoLoadcircuit.jpg)
The no-load start current of the starter motor tested is over 13 Amps!
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1384963startcurrentscope4noted.jpg)
The no-load run current of the starter motor tested is approx. 7 Amps.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1384964runcurrentscope1noted.jpg)
The starter relay pulls 3 amps constantly when energized. Add the total load up and you can see why the 20A fuse might blow on starting the GS.
Reminder: THIS IS A NO LOAD TEST. ADD THE REAL ENGINE AND THE CURRENT GOES UP - WAY UP.
I plan to make a jig to test the starter motor in the bike. That should be very interesting. It might explain some fuse blowing threads I have read.
I wonder if this much R&D went into designing the GS? :lol:
Keep the cool info coming! :thumb:
I heard the starter draws closer to 100 amps on my eliminator 1000 ...
And Kerry - Nope ... definetly not ... they had these things lying about ... and they slapped them together ...
Cool.
Srinath.
A Wild A** Guess: running the starter motor for one minute depletes the stock 11aH battery by, oh, 1 or 2 amp-hours. I think that would be 60-120 amps of draw with the motor attached.
But I guess we'll know for sure in a month or two, when you get the bike back together :)
Leaving the starter motor for some elbow grease dirty work on the side covers. Road rash is very evident on a black case. Even if you paint over it like a previous owner did.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179572/13966122Xgencovernoted.jpg)
With the signal generator cover, the sticky plate must be on to cover the hole in the casting. Here I am peeling it off.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179572/1396622gencovclean1.jpg)
Now into a bucket of solvent that was clear and is now black with the paint they applied to hide the scars.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179572/1396626gencovclean3.jpg)
Hanging out to dry and evaporate the extra solvent. Notice how dull the remaining paint is. I took a file to the round section to smooth out the rash. I may use epoxy or JB Weld as bondo prior to repainting.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179572/1396629gencovclean4.jpg)
Almost ditto for the stator cover except they left the Suzuki sticky plate off this side before the "goth makeup" application.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179572/1396635Statorcovclean1.jpg)
The cover gasket was very brittle and I decided to scrape it off prior to doing the solvent thing with it.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179572/1396674Statorcovclean3.jpg)
Got a BikeBandit order, an ebay purchase, and a gstwinner deal in this week. Work has had me busy so this weekend did not see as much progress as I would have liked. I also have to attend a seminar out of town this week :x .
OK you're putting in waaaay to much effort into a (OK OK shields up) worthless bike ... OK fine you are learning ... but dammit man looks like you already knew 90% of it ...
Cool.
Srinath.
At least the bike will be rebuilt properly. If well taken care of, it will last another 10+ years.
Here's an update and a bump in this process. I have been busy with assorted subtasks with the project. Been distracted from a lot of the dirty work and decided to get greasy tonight (afterall it is Friday night).
No amount of sweet talk would get the old chain master link loose from this bike so....Dremel thin discs to the plates! Was this a nasty chain or what?
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/190576/1429663orgchain1.jpg)
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/190576/1429665orgchain2.jpg)
The spacer (sprocket stop) on the drive shaft has much rust on it. I wonder if an oxidizer was used in the past to clean this area? The plan is to clean it up and move on. If a lower engine rebuild is ever made, then I will pull the spacer and polish it up proper.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179572/1425332outshaft3.jpg)
One of my distractions has been taking xrays of the ignition module and the regulator/rectifier. I will be posting better images. This is just a photo of an xray of the ignition module. Fuzzy for sure but enough detail to see integrated circuits and some components.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1429687igxray1.jpg)
I am on vacation next week and hope to do some GS work and woodworking on a remodeling project.
Hey starwalt ...
What do you make of that countershaft ... you think I can drill a 3/8th hole in it with a hand drill ... and further ... you think I can tap it ... I need it to do belt drive ...
Cool.
Srinath.
second to las pic...... the neutral indicator....
if you solder wires the the other 6 taps and then hook to 6 lights in a row....
you will have a very low tech gear indicator
install them in a row and you will always know what gear you're in
0 0 0 0 0 0
1 2 3 4 5 6
now how is that for a kewl idea....... :cheers:
Quote from: werase643second to las pic...... the neutral indicator....
if you solder wires the the other 6 taps and then hook to 6 lights in a row....
you will have a very low tech gear indicator
install them in a row and you will always know what gear you're in
0 0 0 0 0 0
1 2 3 4 5 6
now how is that for a kewl idea....... :cheers:
You got my attention. How does the neutral indicator work? :dunno:
Quoteyou think I can drill a 3/8th hole in it with a hand drill ... and further ... you think I can tap it
It would be tough to do on the bike and you probably couldn't get it dead straight. You might be better with two smaller holes and an retention plate of some sort. Best bet would be getting a worn out shaft and experimenting with it before committing the real thing. That does assume much though.
Quotesecond to las pic...... the neutral indicator....
That's very clever. And if this is fed into a "diagnostic connector" made available to a data logger....along with a buffered signal generator output, one could derive an interesting set of data. Add some exhaust temp measurement....
Man I've got to quit thinking and do more wrenching.
i have one of them for a GR650....and the 5 speed indicator light set
just need to add one more wire and a 6th light.....
or look at the tach and speedo and determine gear.... :mrgreen:
Quote from: starwaltQuoteyou think I can drill a 3/8th hole in it with a hand drill ... and further ... you think I can tap it
It would be tough to do on the bike and you probably couldn't get it dead straight. You might be better with two smaller holes and an retention plate of some sort. Best bet would be getting a worn out shaft and experimenting with it before committing the real thing. That does assume much though.
Using a Worn out shaft ... I think you pretty much defined that 89 of mine ... Though its transmission is fantastic ... I am evidently very good on transmissions ... Never had one go bad on any bike touch wood ...
Cool.
Srinath.
QuoteJohn Bates - You got my attention. How does the neutral indicator work? :dunno:
The mechanical operation of the neutral indicator is the shift drum, but the electrical aspect is simple enough. If you have a Haynes manual, it shows the replacement of the o-ring. Page 8.14 photo 22.9a shows the spring and plunger, connected to the shift drum, that rotate across the contacts of the indicator. Let's just call this gadget a rotary switch with one contact. The other contact will be the system return (ground via chassis/engine).
Changing of gears causes the shift drum contact to move in a circular fashion that, in turn, stops on separate contacts of the switch. The grounded wire feeds back into the wiring harness and without loss of generality it attaches to the bulb for illumination.
The gating diodes are in this circuit, but those have been discussed previously and represented so very well with your simplified drawing. :thumb: (A super contribution I used often.)
From this, a sufficiently redesigned/modified instrument cluster engine performance/operation is begging to be made. I wonder how much market there is for such an "upgrade?"
Quote from: starwaltIf you have a Haynes manual, it shows the replacement of the o-ring. Page 8.14 photo 22.9a shows the spring and plunger, connected to the shift drum, that rotate across the contacts of the indicator.
For the Haynes manual photos relating to the Neutral Switch,
CLICK HERE.
Quote from: starwalt......... If you have a Haynes manual,........
I don't . I have Clymer. The photos in Clymer aren't close enough to show any detail, however there is a drawing which is decent. Also, thanks to Kerry's post I see exactly what you are saying.
Looks like a shift indicator could be worked out if:
1. The six fixed contacts actually do make electrical contact with the spring loaded contact. An ohmmeter can tell us that.
2. Wires can be soldered or otherwise attached to the fixed contacts.
3. Additional wires can be routed/dressed out of the engine cover.
This could be a fun project. :thumb:
Quote from: John Bates
Looks like a shift indicator could be worked out if:
1. The six fixed contacts actually do make electrical contact with the spring loaded contact. An ohmmeter can tell us that.
Well they don't. :x :x :x There are no electrical contacts for the six gear positions.
Does anyone know of a six speed bike that has a gear selection readout. Preferably a Suzuki? :dunno:
QuoteWell they don't.
Nuts! I wonder if anyone other than Gerhard in South Africa has pulled the neutral indicator out? I might as well and take pics since mine is not running.
This also makes me wonder if contacts could be added if a suitable 6 gear indicator is not available? Hmmmm.
Not sure if this helps any...but the TL's and GSXR's have different ohm readings for each gear selection which is used by the ECU. Not familar with how they are read but I do have the wiring diagrams for the TL.
Quote from: starwalt...........
This also makes me wonder if contacts could be added if a suitable 6 gear indicator is not available? Hmmmm.
It's
part no. 33. on this view.
As you can see, there are raised islands in the casting which appear to be the locations for the six gear positions. They could be drilled to accept contacts with attached wires, assuming they actually do line up with the rotating contact.
Quote from: dgyverthe TL's and GSXR's have different ohm readings for each gear selection
Thats cool. Then we would need only one wire run to the electronics. I wonder if it physically fits the gs? I looked up the part numbers for the neutral switch and the gear shift drum on the TL and GSXR. They are both different than the GS.
It could be that they use a potentiometer to determine gear position on the bikes dgyver mentioned. Here's the hidden side of the neutral indicator showing the single brass contact. Note the "C" shape where the gear drum contact has been moving.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1445428NeutralPosition1.JPG)
And the familiar side showing the possibilities:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1445429NeutralPosition2.JPG)
If I had a spare, I would dig a little deeper into the gadget. Maybe another xray is due here? I think some small brass rods of the correct diameter could be inserted into the round "stumps" to indicate the positions. Their tops would have to be mushroomed out to prevent falling into the works and they would have to be sealed in to prevent oil leaks.
With six hall effect sensors and a magnet moving on the gear drum...now that would be an upgrade mess! :o
From those pictures, It looks very similar to the sensor as shown in the TL parts fische. I do not have a pic of the actual sensor but I can probably get one.
I just picked this up off of eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4529134989&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AWN%3AMT%3A1)
We'll see if it fits. :?
Now that is interesting! The neutral point seems to be the same as the GS. The three wires seem to imply a pot. Your DVM or VOM should provide some more interesting information.
Great catch! :thumb:
Man I wish my camera made pics that nice. I've got to direct some hobby money to a better camera and upgrade.
If there is a pink wire in the harness then that is for the gear indicator to the ECU. I am pretty sure that the GSXR and TL wire diagrams are the same for this part.
After looking at the part schematics, it looks like the GS, TL, GSXR share the same type of pin pick-up, just different gear indicators. Looks like this should work. :thumb:
I was worried about the symmetry of the mount/round section. The GS is very symmetrical. This looks a little different.
John will know soon enough.
Quote from: starwaltI was worried about the symmetry of the mount/round section. The GS is very symmetrical. This looks a little different.
..............
Yes, the part looks very similar but the dimensions are probably different.
It also looks like a three wire system.
Did you notice on the 2004 GS500F electrical schematic that it is a three wire system? However the microfiche pictures a switch that looks like the single wire version of the GS500E.
Is something "fiche" here?
:dunno:
This time I have been working with the turn signals and the turn signal relay/flasher circuit.
Here's the relay with its cover removed...
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1472940turnrelay1.jpg)
Notice the circuitry inside. A resistor, capacitor, wire and a relay coil buried under the large wire. If your relay is not burned up and is not acting correctly, you may have just a bad connection.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1472944turnrelayfix1.jpg) Here I am soldering the pinch-type connection for the resistor and capacitor. This type of connection is similar to an IDC (insulation displacement connection) except without insulation. Vibration is the bane of a simple mechanical connection.
Another problem is arcing of the Normally Closed contact of this relay. Here I am inserting a piece of paper between the contacts. Sliding this back and forth like a towel removes carbon and residue from arcing. In a severe case, use 600 to 1000 count abrasive paper or cloth.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1472945turnrelaycontactclean2.jpg)
With that done, I gator clipped together a test circuit on the bench to make sure the relay still worked...
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1477230trelayonresize.jpg)
For the benefit of the group, here is a simplified schematic of the turn signal circuit with the relay shown in the dashed rectangle.
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/183441/1477205Turnrelaygifschem.gif)
The relay circuit is a simple capacitor charge-discharge type. That is why with only one lamp, the relay does not cycle. Insufficient current for a quick flash rate. It may cycle but would be **very** slow at it.
I wonder what the insides of an automotive type is like. I remember the heated bi-metal units from years ago. Real power hogs!
Blink-a-blink-a-blink-a.....
There is a heavy duty wagner 552 for like $6.99 or so, regular wagner 552 is like $1.99 ... and its made of transparent cover ... Its got electronics in it ... Chips, wafers, and somehitng like that coil If I remember ...
Cool.
Srinath.