GStwin.com GS500 Message Forum

I left it on the side of the freeway, so a quick response would be greatly appreciated...  I worked on the carbs and stuff, and replaced the plugs.  The plugs are the only thing electrical I did to it.  I was riding down the freeway, and pop!  No more fuse.  Bike dead.  Had the girlfriend bring me more fuses, and they popped after a couple seconds.  What the hell could be going wrong??

Oh, and for the couple seconds it DOES run, it runs like total crap.

When you replace the fuse, do your brake lights/headlight work properly? Maybe some wiring connectors got eroded? I don't know much about electric, but one thing's for sure....you got about 2-4 hours before they tow your bike off the hwy  :bs:   Good luck

Dunno about the brake light, but the headlight works until the fuse blows.  It's strange that it JUST happened today.  I must have done something wrong when I put it back together, but I don't know what it could possibly be.  I just went back out there and put 2 new plugs in it.  It started, warmed up for a couple munites, then died again.  So it does it when it's warm.  I should also note that I was able to ride it for about 12 miles before it sis it the first time.  Now it does it as soon as it warms up.  I'm on my way to got buy some ramps and tie downs, and bring it home.  If it's still there...  This sucks!   :x

Make sure you didn't pinch any wires when you put everything back together.  Could have gotten squeezed between something and now after riding and rubbing it's shorting.

Got the bike home.  Those cheapie $70 aluminum ramps work pretty well.  Luckily, some guy with dirt bikes in the back of his truck pulled over to help.  Dunno if me and my g/f would have been able to do it.  The dude scratched my tank though.   :x   (Although the two of us woulda prolly dropped it)  Unloading was easy.  Now I gotta take the whole thing apart again and look for the short or whatever.  Not today.  I'm tired.  Beer is good.  Maybe it's time for a SV650S...

Okay, so the broken bike in the garage was driving me crazy, so I worked on it a bit.  I am more confused than ever.  I removed the tank and the side panels, and hooked up one of those coolant return tanks as my fuel tank (kicks ass, btw).  The bike started up, and seemed to run just fine.  It warmed up, and I was revving the motor, and everything's ok.  I checked the high-beams, brake lights, turn signals, and it's still running ok.  I pressed on, jiggled, moved, and tugged on every cable and group of cables that I could find, including the spark plug wires.  I mean EVERY CABLE.  I turned the bike OFF, and started it again, and repeated the process.  The fuse never popped.  So, either:

1) The tank or a side panel was pinching a cable, and I could not replicate the problem (doubt it), or
2) Something around the motor area was overheating, and wasn't with the tank off (I was going 85 MPH when it happened the first time, so it was getting plenty of air), or
3) The bike is pissed off at me for something, and trying to get back at me

I really have no flippin clue.  I was too tired to put it all back together, but I'll try that in the next few days, and see what happens.  Any help in the meantime would be greatly appreciated.

-Jason

There only one thing that comes to mind as too why your fuse was popping, to much current
HAHA Just kidding

But really a wire that is "hot" or "live" when the bike is running is some how grounding against the chassis. My guess is that it must be heat related, ie. it is burning the rubber casing off and then grounds itself to the chassis. THe other thing is that something is pinched in the wiring,.

what work have you done recently on the bike?

ohhh yeah to wire could be touching eachother also, ie a ground wire and a live wire... just an idea

I recently took the carbs apart, cleaned them, and installed new diaphragms and springs.  I also replaced the plugs (once before the incident, and once on the side of the freeway).  The only set(s) of wires that I messed with during my original work are:

- The plug wires
- The stupid clump of wires that runs on the right side of the airbox, that always make installing the airbox a real PITA.  I pulled and jiggled these wires a lot while the bike was running (tonight), and it didn't pop a fuse.

Quote from: mrblinkThe only set(s) of wires that I messed with during my original work are:

- The plug wires
- The stupid clump of wires that runs on the right side of the airbox, that always make installing the airbox a real PITA.

(Emphasis added)

Off the topic here, but while I'm thinking about it...

1) The Clymer manual has you entirely remove the airbox before pulling the carbs out.  :?  

2) The Haynes manual tells you to remove the airbox mounting screws, but only so you can push the airbox far enough rearward that the (disconnected) carbs can clear it.

3) Long ago someone mentioned removing the airbox/carbs as a single assembly, to make the connections easier.[/list:u]I've only tried the 2nd and 3rd methods, but I must say that I prefer the Haynes sequence.  :dunno:  Leave that box alone, I say!  :)

A little late now, eh?   :?   Reading the manual before you take stuff apart isn't very man-like.  I always thought the manual was there to fix stuff after you break it??  Oh, and I have a Clymer manual, so I guess I was doing it right...

I'm looking on the bright side here.  I managed to get some new ramps and tie downs out of it.  Plus, my girlfriend said I was allowed to spend a whopping $3,000 on a new bike.  I think I'm better off with my 15 year old GS.   :mrgreen:

The girlfriend tells you what you can or cant do :o

cant imagine what marriage would be like

Going on 10 years, so I guess we're basically married.  I will be laid off from work early next year, so she's got a point...  Aren't new bikes what severance packages are for??

Over heating motor wont pop a fuse ... Look for goats, or you might have had an intermittent ground or somehting.
Cool.
Srinath.

If I had this mysterious "goats syndrome", wouldn't the bike just quit running?  With the tank off, it ran fine last night.  I know an overheating motor won't pop a fuse, but I also know that when things get hot, they expand.  The ignition, or something else electrical could be getting hot, and the internals could be shorting out?   :dunno:   Just a thought.  I'm really stumped on this one.  You mentioned an intermittent ground?  What could cause that?  I'm not real good with troubleshooting electrical.  I could always stick a paper clip in there, and whatever starts smoking is where the problem is...   :o

Goats has many symptoms ... mine just didn't charge the battery, se7enty7 had fuses blow right when he turns off the bike, Goat himself had none of those I think... extra earth right in the stator is what causes someof it. No idea what yours is... might have been a old fuse...
Cool.
Srinath.

I've gone through about 6 fuses so far.  4 of them were brand new - purchased yesterday.

OK more serious... lemme see your post again...
Cool.
Srinath.

OK that additional earth connection from negative of battery to wiring harness... that will be my first suspect ... running on 1 cyl is what it does if its bad ... and might make it blow fuses as well...
Cool.
Srinath.

That's a possibility.  I'll look at it when I get home.  Is it just a wire that I have to replace?  There were times that I replaced the fuse, started it, and it ran like ass.  Kind of like running on 1 cylinder...

Spark plug wires will not cause a popped fuse; you can ground one sparkplug wire to the chassis, and the fuse should be fine.  However, if you replaced the plug wires, you might've jiggled the +12v leads from the battery to the coils, which would pop a fuse if they shorted.

I had a friend who had a "mystery short"; he replaced the fuse with a circuit breaker, so he could reset it :) .  That was the first bike I ever rode.

Quote from: seshadri_srinathOK that additional earth connection from negative of battery to wiring harness... that will be my first suspect ... running on 1 cyl is what it does if its bad ... and might make it blow fuses as well...
Cool.
Srinath.

If you'r talking about the two black-white wires, one is the ground for the RR module.  This one would affect the charging ckt.  A bad connection in this wire would probably cause the regulator to go wacky.  Since the charging is through the fuse...... who knows, maybe this wire is the culprit.

The other black-white wire furnishes ground to just about everything else that needs it, including the ignition control unit (ICU).  I would think a bad ground connection to the ICU could cause missfires but not blow the fuse.

:thumb: Good luck

OK, I got some more info for the GS gurus.  I put the tank and the seat back on.  It starts and warms up fine.  I can rev the motor and it runs ok.  I did notice that I sometimes get a quick "pop" or "tick" when I blip the throttle, and I don't remember that prior to the issue.  Here's the BIG thing I noticed:

As soon as I start MOVING, it dies.  Every single time.  I can put it in first gear with the clutch in, and rev it all I want.  But as soon as I release the clutch and start moving, it pops the fuse.  What the hell!?!?!

Quote from: mrblinkOK, I got some more info for the GS gurus.  I put the tank and the seat back on.  It starts and warms up fine.  I can rev the motor and it runs ok.  I did notice that I sometimes get a quick "pop" or "tick" when I blip the throttle, and I don't remember that prior to the issue.  Here's the BIG thing I noticed:

As soon as I start MOVING, it dies.  Every single time.  I can put it in first gear with the clutch in, and rev it all I want.  But as soon as I release the clutch and start moving, it pops the fuse.  What the hell!?!?!

Since it dies as soon as the bike moves, I would suspect the kickstand switch. Try to jumper the wires(I don't know if it needs to be open or closed). Also, will it start with the clutch pulled in and in gear? Or does it die when you pull in the clutch and put it in gear? There's another switch at the clutch handle. Just more possibilities. :dunno:

It doesn't die until I let the clutch out.

The clutch switch has no effect after the bike has started.  

On the other hand the sidestand relay must remain operated to keep the bike running.  The components in this part of the circuit are, in addition to the sidestand relay, the sidestand switch, the diodes and the neutral switch.

If you'r in gear then the neutral switch and diodes are out of the circuit and the sidestand switch or related wiring is the culprit. :thumb:

The sidestand switch (or that circuit) is definitely the culprit.  The clutch switch and sidestand switch seem to both work as they should.  If it's in first, and the stand is down, the bike will not start (but the fuse is good).  If the stand is up, the bike will start, but blow the fuse after a second or two.

Now, I traced the wires back to the ECU.  There is a green wire (assuming ground), and a black wire with a white stripe.  If I disconnect them, the bike won't start (fuse OK).  If I short them nearest the ECU (taking the switch out of the loop), the fuse blows.  I don't understand how the circuit works, so I don't know if those two (green and black/white) wires are supposed to be shorted to close the circuit.  We're definitely getting closer!!

According to my Clymer manual, the green and black/white wires ARE shorted to complete the circuit.  So the switch is OK, meaning that there might be a more serious problem.   :o

Quote from: mrblinkThe sidestand switch (or that circuit) is definitely the culprit.  The clutch switch and sidestand switch seem to both work as they should.  If it's in first, and the stand is down, the bike will not start (but the fuse is good).  If the stand is up, the bike will start, but blow the fuse after a second or two.

Does the engine start if the sidestand is down and the transmission in neutral?

Quote from: mrblink
Now, I traced the wires back to the ECU.  

What do you mean by ECU?

Quote from: mrblink
There is a green wire (assuming ground), and a black wire with a white stripe.  If I disconnect them, the bike won't start (fuse OK).  If I short them nearest the ECU (taking the switch out of the loop), the fuse blows.  I don't understand how the circuit works, so I don't know if those two (green and black/white) wires are supposed to be shorted to close the circuit.  We're definitely getting closerquo!!

When the sidestand is down the green and black-white wires are not connected.  When the sidestand is up the two wires are connected and ground from the black-white wire is placed on the green wire.  This operates the sidestand relay which in turn places 12V through the engine stop switch to  the ignition ckt.

The only way this could blow the fuse is if the sidestand relay winding is shorted.

QuoteDoes the engine start if the sidestand is down and the transmission in neutral?

Yes

QuoteWhat do you mean by ECU?

That block on the left side with all the wires coming out of it.  It may not be the ECU, but it looked like one.  Better than calling it the "thingey" I suppose.   :P

QuoteWhen the sidestand is down the green and black-white wires are not connected. When the sidestand is up the two wires are connected and ground from the black-white wire is placed on the green wire. This operates the sidestand relay which in turn places 12V through the engine stop switch to the ignition ckt.

Ya.  I was able to figure that out by looking at the Clymer manual (RTFM).  It tells how to test the relay, but my battery in my volt meter is almost dead, so I'm on my way to Radio Shack.  There was a lot of goop and stuff on the wiring harness that connects to the sidestand relay, and a cleaned it up the best I could.  Is there a way to jumper two of the wires in that harness, or does it need the relay in order to complete the circuit?  It seems like the 12V power to the relay only serves as a method of completing the sidestand circuit within the relay??   :dunno:

I can back Srinath when it comes to the secondary ground causing the bike to run poorly(part of what I am working with).  It is the small wire coming off of the negative battery terminal.  I just replace mine with a bullet connector(I was supprised at the amount of RUST on that connection) and replaced the wire all the way back to the main harness.  It solved the problem I had, and led me to another(hope it doesn't do that to you).

Good Luck
Don
Shadowhawk
'92GS500
'83GS450LD

I don't think that's my problem.  The wire is in good shape, and the bike seems to run ok.  It only runs like poop when the fuse blows and it doesn't die immediately.  I'm pretty sure that my problem is at the sidestand relay, but some other force may have killed the relay.

Here is a
simplified drawing (http://gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13041&highlight=) of the starting ckt.

Hope it helps.

About ready to give up...  I checked the relay, but can't make heads or tails of it.  When I applied 12V to it or took the current off, it would click, which is probably good.  When it's hooked up and the bike's on (not running, just power), it clicks when I push the sidestand switch in and let it out.  I thought everything was cool, so I started it up.  It ran for about a minute in first gear, with the clutch in, and the side stand up, giving it little blips on the throttle.  As soon as I started to take off, it died again.  It still seems like it might run longer when it's totally cold.  When it's warm, it dies in about 2 seconds (when I put the stand up and put it in first).  The relay does seem to get a little warm after a bit, but I dunno if that means anything.  

I may have to bribe one of the local gurus to come help me fix it.  What will it take?  Money?  Food?  Beer??  I have all those things!   :mrgreen:  (but not enough money to take it to the shop @ $65 per hour X many many hours...  I'd rather put that money toward a new bike and part this one out)

BikeBandit has the sidestand relay listed as:  "RELAY ASSY,FUEL".  Just wanted to verify in case I end up ordering one.  It's part# 21 on this schematic:

http://houseofmotorcycles.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/showschematic~dept_id~722662.asp

That looks like the relay. Strange name.

I would check the relay winding resistance before buying a new one.

Pull the relay and with an ohmeter check for 87 ohms.  With the rubber mounting slot facing toward you, the two terminals on the right are the winding.

The reading would have to be very low, about 1 ohm or less, to draw enough current to blow the fuse.

If it was my ride I would try and eliminate the POS relay/switch. It's not a critical component. Dirt bikes don't have them. If you take off with the stand down, you'll know soon enough. :mrgreen:

John - Thanks.  The Clymer manual didn't say exactly what the ohm reading should be, so I was only able to test current.  I'll check it when I get home.  I really need to take an electronics course.  This is fun stuff when you understand it!  Do you know what would FRY the relay in the first place?

Ed - I hear ya.  The whole circuit seems a little too complicated to eliminate it.  If there is a way to do it, I would LOVE to hear it.  Anyone??

Have you seen the wiring diagram from the Haynes manual (http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_WiringDiagram_US_90-96.jpg)? It's in full  COLOR!

It hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet - not that you need even MORE reference info at this point.... :roll:

Nothing like total confusion, in FULL COLOR!!   :mrgreen:

I printed it out though.  Thanks for posting.  I didn't wanna sound un-appreciative.

Yes, great diagram. Wouldn't it be nice if it was animated to show the current flowing through the wires and components. :cheers:

Quote from: mrblink.....
Ed - I hear ya.  The whole circuit seems a little too complicated to eliminate it.  If there is a way to do it, I would LOVE to hear it.  Anyone??

The circuit is obviously there to protect you and the manufacturer.
So it would be unconscionable to suggest that a short piece of wire with a flat 1/4 inch male connector on each end could be plugged into the relay socket at an orange wire and the other end at the orange-blue wire, then protected with the rubber relay cover.

Just don't sell the bike without restoring the relay.
:thumb:

Thanks for the unsupported, non-recommended, hypothetical step-by-step.  That will tell me whether or not that actual relay is the culprit or not.  If so, I'll order another relay ASAP.

I was just looking at the beautiful, full color wiring diagram that Kerry posted.  There are two "orange" wires on one side of the connector.  Hypothetically speaking, would it be the orange wire directly opposite the green wire, or opposite the orange/blue wire?

It doesn't matter.  They are both 12V when the ignition switch is on.

Oh yea that has been bypassed with the same method that John bates didn't suggest ... dont see whyyou'd need a new relay, bypass it and be done with it ... OK if you must ... put a big chunk of a car tire on the stabd somehow ... that should stuck out below the stand... honda's use that mechanism ... hits the ground first and take the stand up...
Cool.
Srinath.

Quote from: John Bates

Quote from: mrblink.....
Ed - I hear ya.  The whole circuit seems a little too complicated to eliminate it.  If there is a way to do it, I would LOVE to hear it.  Anyone??

The circuit is obviously there to protect you and the manufacturer.
So it would be unconscionable to suggest that a short piece of wire with a flat 1/4 inch male connector on each end could be plugged into the relay socket at an orange wire and the other end at the orange-blue wire, then protected with the rubber relay cover.

Just don't sell the bike without restoring the relay.
:thumb:

:lol:  :cheers:  :lol:

Very well put, John. :cheers:

I'm sure you'll be pleased to know my GS still has it's warning sticker on top of the fuel tank. This is however, the first bike I've left it on. I figured since I plan to sell it soon, I'll leave it on to "protect" the next owner.  :cheers:

I wish I still had my sticker.  It makes a nice backing for writing on those darn thermal-paper gas pump receipts.  :x

What warning sticker?

My tank has been painted by previous owners several times.

If I kill myself for not knowing someting the manufacturer didn't warn me about I'll sue the previous owners. :lol:  :lol:

I'll second John's suggestion: remove the relay altogether, and jump the orange/blue wire at the relay to one of the orange wires.

One other suggestion: check for resistance between battery (-) and chassis, and between battery (-) and the ground terminal in the regulator/rectifier plug.

The circuit is basically:
If the bike is in neutral, then the blue wire is grounded; and the blue wire provides ground via a diode to the green wire.
If the sidestand is up, then the green wire is grounded via a diode.
So... if either case is true, then green is ground.
When green is grounded, the relay connects orange to orange/blue.

So, to bypass the switches, you _could_ short green to ground.  But the bike has a diode between blue and green; and between ground and green... some kind of isolation against noise in ground?  Anyways, shorting green to ground would bypass these dioded.  So it would be safer to bypass the switches and also the relay, by removing the relay altogether and connecting orange to orange/blue.

Dammit.  I thought we had it.  The relay is not the problem.  It tested at 92 ohms on the one side, so it's good.  I jumpered the connector, and it's still blowing fuses.  I know the jumper is working, because I can start it in first gear with the sidestand down.  I'm ready to start drinking heavily.  Here are some key points that MAY help:

-  Not all orange wires are created equal.  One of the orange wires created the "sidestand up" effect, while the other did not.

-  Sometimes I can rev the bike and it's fine, meaning it varies how long it runs while jumpered and stationary.  It dies immediately when I try to take off (give it gas and let out the clutch).  I can replicate it 100% of the time while taking off.

-  I am using an assload of fuses, and I'm angry.

Quote from: mrblink......
Not all orange wires are created equal.  One of the orange wires created the "sidestand up" effect, while the other did not.........

With the ignition off, check the resistance between the two terminals with all orange wires.  It should be zero.

John - thanks for helping me through this.  I was so mad that the only thing I could do was go take a nap.  I feel better now...   :mrgreen:   I'm not sure what you mean by the two terminals and all orange wires.  I am a noob when it comes to electrical systems.

I think he's referring to the two terminals on the sidestand relay that have only orange wires connected to them - no other color:

(http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_Wiring_SidestandRelay.jpg)

The resistance between them should be zero.  If it's "infinity" instead than there is a break in the short wire that joins them.

Did I get that right, John?

Yeah, but I bypassed the relay completely by jumpering the connector.  Forgive me if i'm not getting it.   :dunno:

Quote from: KerryThe resistance between them should be zero.  If it's "infinity" instead than there is a break in the short wire that joins them.

If the orange lead to the relay coil were not hot, then the relay would never close, and the bike would not start.  And if there were no voltage on the "load" orange wire, then even if the relay closed, the bike would not start.  If the bike started at all with the relay in place, then I think there had to be voltage at both orange wires.  I can't explain why mrblink didn't have success with one of the orange wires.

On the bright side, if he got the bike to start with the orange/blue jumpered to one of the orange wires, then I don't see that the sidestand switch is a factor anymore.  If the bike still pops fuses, then it doesn't sound like the sidestand is the culprit.

It sounds as though there is an intermittent short.  I'd recommend checking for resistance between battery ground and both chassis ground, and rectifier ground... but if the short is intermittent, then checking things while the bike is "happy" won't tell you everything.

Another approach would be to disconnect some of the "optional" electrical stuff, and see if anything stops the fuses from blowing.   For example, you can disconnect the three yellow wires from the alternator to the regulator (under the left lide panel); I think you can even unplug the nylon connector to the R/R altogether (under the right side panel), and the bike will still start and run (you may want to hook the battery up to a car battery with jumper cables).

I think if you disconnect the brown and gray wires in the headlight bucket ; and remove the turn signal relay; and disconnect the white wire at the hi-beam swtich, then that should disconnect almost all the lights on the bike (except neutral and oil pressure lights).

Quote from: mrblink
-  Not all orange wires are created equal.  One of the orange wires created the "sidestand up" effect, while the other did not.

I think we are confused by the above statement.  

Were you bypassing the relay when you discovered this?

Are you saying that when you jumpered from the orange-blue wire to one of the terminals with orange wires that the bypass worked but when you jumpered to the other it didn't? That's the way I read it.

If that's the case then there is someting wrong with that part of the ckt.

With no jumpers the ohmeter should read zero between the two terminals with all orange wires.

John - that's exactly what I was saying.  Now, I was jumpering with a paper clip, so it's possible that it wasn't making a good connection.  I will verify to make sure 100% (but it's why I decided to use the other orange wire).  I was confused by "With no jumpers the ohmeter should read zero between the two terminals with all orange wires".  I don't know that the "two terminals" are.  Are you talking about the actual relay, or the connector?

I'm talking about the terminals on the sidestand relay connector, with the relay removed.  That's where the wires are and where you should be working with both the jumper and the ohmeter.

:mrgreen:   I understand now.  I'm kinda slow these days...  I'll check it tomorrow and let you know.  Once again, thanks for helping me out.

OK, so I finally got some more time to work on the bike.  I was just going through the thread again, to see what all I need to check.  One thing keeps flashing in my mind:

It was running fine, and did not die until I was on the freeway, going about 80 MPH for several minutes.  I can understand if I was having issues immediately after I re-assembled the bike, but no.  I got a good 12 miles out of it before it started popping fuses.  It's not like I was throwing it into corners either.  Just cruising, going straight.  

- What could have spontaneously blew up that would have affected the circuit in question?
- Does everything electrical go through that single 20A fuse by the battery?

Just something to think about, as I am still totally lost.  I will report back sometime this afternoon, hopefully with more info.

-Jason

It sounds like you have a double ground somewhere.  But that would have fried long before 12 miles.   Maybe not, though.  From all of the symptoms it sounds like a hot wire is touching the frame or something...definitely a ground out.

Dom - Thanks for the info.  I have seen the Haynes schematic, and I can make a little sense of it, but it doesn't tell me where or how to test these things.  It isn't intermittent, meaning I can replicate the problem 100% of the time.  It will start and run in first, with the side stand up.  I guess the only intermittent thing that happens is: sometimes it will run in this condition while stationary, with the clutch in, but the second I try and take off (let the clutch out and gas it), it will blow the fuse 100% of the time.  I know that the clutch switch is in this loop somewhere, and I have looked for loose wires, and have fooled with all the taped up clumps of wires, with no success.

John B. - I tested the sidestand relay connector, and this is what I found:

Both orange wires together = 001-002 ohms
Either orange wire and the orange/green wire = ~500 ohms

Formulating a new theory...  

It looks like there is a yellow/green wire that connects the clutch switch to the starter relay.  There is also a black/white wire that connects to the starter relay, and lots of other stuff, like the battery ground and rectifier (as others have mentioned).  According to the Haynes diagram, the starter relay and the fuse look like the same physical box, with some sort of internal connection between the two.  I am thinking that the starter relay could be toast, or like other people have mentioned, something wrong with the ground (black/white wire I am assuming).  I just need to figure out how to trace this, and how to test with my volt meter.  Someone mentioned to check for resistance between the battery and rectifier.  What am I looking for exactly?  No resistance?

Interesting development -

So I started the bike up, let it run for a minute, put it in gear, and let the clutch out a bit.  Pop!  There goes the fuse.  So, the big event here is letting out the clutch.  The yellow/green and black/white wires from the clutch switch end up at the starter relay.

I put in another fuse, and started the bike.  I removed the black/white wire from the starter relay, and let out the clutch.  Pop!  Damn.  I really don't know what I am doing.

Ok.  Now the ignition is OFF.  I plug the black/white wire back in, and start to plug in another fuse.  POP!  Wait a minute...  Ignition is OFF.  So, either the problem IS the starter relay, and I just made it worse, or I totally fried something else by removing the black/white wire from the starter relay while the bike was running.   :o   HELP!!

How are you pulling the black/white wire out of the plug/socket? If you have removed the wire AND the connector lug, reinstalling it next to the red wire in the same plug will blow the fuse.

The black/white wire should be next to the green/yellow wire.

I am looking over the schematics and have a whole GS and a donor I am looking over. We can figure this out - eventually. Hang in there!

Here are a couple of items that you can refer to, both for your sake and ours:

The sidestand relay (lifted off of its mounting tab and swung down away from the frame):

(http://www.bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_2026_SidestandRelay.jpg)

Also, a page from the Haynes manual (http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_SidestandSwitchAndRelay.jpg) that goes through testing both the sidestand switch and the sidestand relay.

Dunno, do these help any?   :dunno:

Quote from: mrblinklet the clutch out a bit.  Pop!  There goes the fuse

Yesterday, I was going to write that maybe the clutch switch was shorting-out, but then I looked at the wiring diagram and decided that it wasn't possible  8) .

Basically: the battery supplies power to the starter button.  When the starter button is pushed, then it gives power to the clutch switch.  When the clutch is pulled, then the power goes all the way to the starter relay coil, which closes and the starter turns.  

But when the starter button is not pushed, there is no power at all at the clutch switch.  So I don't see how even a shorted clutch switch could pop a fuse, except when the starter button is also pushed.

Rema - I didn't think there was anything wrong with the clutch switch, because the switch was working like it was supposed to.  But since the yellow/green wire went all the way to the starter relay, and the black/white wire also went to the relay, and it only happens when i let the clutch out, it seemed logical.

Kerry - I have tested the sidestand switch and relay, and both seem to be OK.  I even bypassed the relay with a jumper to rule it out.

Starwalt - On the starter relay, the black/white wire was right next to the yellow/green wire as you said.  All I did was UNPLUG the black white wire while the bike was running.  Don't ask me why.  I think it was an act of desperation.  I plugged it back into the same socket, then tried to install a new fuse, when the fuse popped.

I guess I posted the wrong manual page.  :roll:

Can I interest you in a different one (http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_StarterRelay.jpg) - one that deals with the starter relay?

The starter relay coil resistance should be 3 to 5 ohms.

Oh man, I did something really bad I think...  Remember how I said that the bike was popping fuses when it was TURNED OFF???

I made sure it was OFF.  I removed the key, just to be sure.  I unplugged ALL 4 CONNECTORS from the starter relay, and it's STILL POPPING FUSES while the bike is TURNED OFF.  NO KEY in the ignition.  Son of a Buddha Loves You.  What could I have done?  Anyone wanna buy a GS500, real cheap?  First $500 takes it.

OK time for battery spark test ... you have a huge Mofo short in it ...
Cool.
Srinath.

What's the battery spark test?

Quote from: mrblinkit's STILL POPPING FUSES while the bike is TURNED OFF.  NO KEY in the ignition.

That's great news! ;) .  Because the only parts of the bike which have power even when the key is out, are the starter relay and the Regulator/Rectifier... much less wiring to check!

The easiest one to check is the regulator/rectifier.  On the right side of the bike, under the right side panel, is a 4-wire nylon quick-connector.  It runs to a little metal box with radiator fins about the size of a pack of cigarettes (the R/R).  Disconnect the quick-connect.  Does the popping stop?

Then check the battery lead to the starter relay.  It's the big huge cable running from the battery straight to the starter relay.  Disconnect it at the starter relay (or remove the starter relay).  Does the popping stop?

fyi... I went through all these tests with my bike... it was popping fuses when the bike was turned off... ended up being goat's syndrome

If you disconnect the thick red wire (from the battery) at the starter relay then there should be no power at all to the bike.  (Still, you may as well make sure that's the case.)

se7enty7 may have something here.  I don't know whether you have "Goat's Syndrome", but if the regulator/rectifier has power then so might the alternator - so a short there COULD be your problem.

(http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_IgnitionWiring.jpg)

Try disconnecting the 3-wire connector between the alternator and the R/R perhaps?

Quote from: KerryIf you disconnect the thick red wire (from the battery) at the starter relay then there should be no power at all to the bike.  (Still, you may as well make sure that's the case.)

se7enty7 may have something here.  I don't know whether you have "Goat's Syndrome", but if the regulator/rectifier has power then so might the alternator - so a short there COULD be your problem.



Try disconnecting the 3-wire connector between the alternator and the R/R perhaps?

measure the resistance between the three wires from the stator.... they come out of the left side cover near where the clutch goes in. Unplug the connector, and measure between the three wires...  On all three of my stators (albeit all used, but some were cracked and some looked perfect) a good stator should read at least .7 ohms.  bad stators read 'err' or will error out

While on this thread, here is a blow-apart of the starter relay/connector fuse block.  I hope this helps.

(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1338940StartRelayexplained.jpg)

I've got to get a better digital camera!

The connectors on that starter relay look a little bit different than mine.  My bike is an 89, so would that have something to do with it??  In any case, I unplugged all 4 wires from the starter relay last night, and it was still blowing fuses.  I will unplug the rectifier today, and if that's not it, I'll try the alternator.  If the bike has goats, will it still blow fuses with all these things unplugged?

I've been out of town for a day and a half. Looks like you're making progress.

The 89 wiring is a little different than other years.  The fuse is mounted separate from the starter relay.  But the ckt works the same.

If you disconnect the red and black-white wires from the R/R then that isolates the R/R and AC generator from everything else.

Hmmm. The 07/89 chassis and the 10/89 chassis I have have the starter relay and fuse combined. Only three wires come out of the red connector/fuse cover as shown here:
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179575/1339071Relayonchassis1.jpg)

Do you have a connector/fuse cover as shown above or a totally different set up as mentioned by Bates? You have said you have 4 wires, not 3 as shown. We may be getting our models mixed up.

When is a model considered 89 or 90? I would think it is the year it was made but... :dunno:   The Clymer manual shows 4 wires for 90 and up.

Let us know your manufacture date as on the VIN plate.  Could someone have added a second wire for an accessory?

Quote from: mrblink
- Does everything electrical go through that single 20A fuse by the battery?

Looks like a good time to post this here.  As you can see, the fuse is between the battery and everything else (except the starter).  The battery can dump a lot of energy into the wiring and components real quick.  The fuse is just protection in case of a short to ground.

Making some progress I think!!

Starwalt - my starter relay is definitely different.  The fuse is a separate assembly, located next to the battery.  

Ok, I'll just lay it out, step-by-step:

1) I had a Buddha Loves You of a time getting the black/white - red wire connector apart from the rectifier.  I instead disconnected the yellow - white/green - white/blue connector that appears to go from the rectifier to the alternator.

2) I plugged in a fuse, and it didn't pop.

3) I plugged the rectifier/alternator connector back in, and plugged in a fuse.  It didn't pop.

4) I re-connected all the wires to the starter relay, and plugged in the fuse, and it didn't pop.  Very strange, since it was popping before, with the ignition off.  At this point, who cares?  It's not popping!

5) So, basically, everything is connected again, so I started the bike, and let it run for a minute.  No problem so far.

6) I put it in gear, and let out the clutch a bit.  POP!!  Damn.

7) I unplugged the rectifier/alternator connector (yellow - white/green - white/blue), and plugged in a new fuse (getting low on fuses...)

8: I started the bike, and did the whole put it gear, let the cluch out thing.  NO MORE POPPING FUSES!!  Now, it's raining, so I couldn't take it around the complex, so I tried it a few more times, and it SEEMS to be working with that thing unplugged.  I am assuming that the battery is not charging in this state, so I didn't wanna run it too much,

So, does this mean that the alternator or the rectifier is toast?

Quote from: mrblink

So, does this mean that the alternator or the rectifier is toast?

Maybe.  

Have you checked the battery voltage  while the engine is running at idle and while revved.

no, but I will!  :mrgreen:

Go Chargers!  I think halftime was created to go work on your bike.  Ok.  Here's what I got:

1) Plugged the rectifier->alternator connector back in, hooked up the volt meter, and started up the bike.  As the bike was warming up, it crept up to a stable 14.95-15.01 volts.  

2) When I revved it and held it at ~4,000 RPM, the voltage dropped to about 14.50.

3) For shits and giggles, I put it in first and let out the clutch.  POP!!

4) I put in yet another fuse, disconnected the rectifier->alternator connector, started it, let out the cluch several times, and NO POP.

I should also note the following: As I was letting out the clutch and giving it gas when the connector was plugged in, the headlight would dim a little bit for a couple tries before the fuse actually popped.  When the connector was unplugged, the light did not dim at all, and the fuse never popped.

-Jason

How about in gear with clutch lever held in and just revving.  Does that blow a fuse?

I have to say no, but I think is has done it a few times before.  It hasen't done it recently.  When I was testing it earlier, I was revving it quite a bit while it was in gear with the clutch lever in, and it didn't pop until I let the clutch out a couple times.

OK you might well have goats ... Se7enty7's bike was blowing fuses when he turns it off ... what can be stranger than that  ... GGGGGGGGG....OOOOOOOO.......AAAAAAAAA.........TTTTTTTTT.........SSSSSSSSS.......
Cool.
Srinath.

I was afraid you might say that.  What is goat's exactly?  Doesn't it have something to do with the alternator??  I mean, that would make sense I suppose...

OK test for goats ...
Resistance from one leg or the alternator to coil to other ... 3 readings for the 3 coils... say they are A, B and C ... A-B, B-C, C-A ... write them down.... Then resistance to ground for all 3 ... A-Ground, B-ground, C to ground ... OK if any of these has a value other than Infinity to ground, and if one of the pair values is much lower than others or much higher than other or is open ... you most likely got goats ...
But Goats is not the only thing you might have ... you just have connectivity to ground somewhere ... like I posted earlier ... "you have a big ass short in it" ... Somewhere in the alternator/RR part ...
Cool.
Srinath.

Srinath - OK, so keep in mind I am a HUGE electrical noob.  There are three alternator wires that connect to the rectifier (yellow, white/green, white/blue).  I am assuming that I can merely disconnect them at the rectifier, and take the readings from the connector by the rectifier (going toward the motor, of course).  If that's the case, I understand the A-B, B-C thing.  How do I test to ground?  I mean, what do I touch with the volt meter?  The negative battery terminal?

Also, the Clymer manual has some pretty cryptic info on testing the rectifier, but pretty much states that you need a special Suzuki tester in order to do it.  Is this true?

Quote from: mrblink............. As I was letting out the clutch and giving it gas when the connector was plugged in, the headlight would dim a little bit for a couple tries before the fuse actually popped.

So putting a load on the engine with the clutch causes a short in a stator winding, popping a fuse? :dunno:

OK Mrblink ... for ground touch the left side engine case bolts ... best ground there is ...
John Bates ... well its rather erratic when you have a short to ground ... it simply can cause a surge in the wiring somehow ... how else can you explain fuse popping when you shut it off ...
However to be honest I didn't totally follow the preceding 5 pages of this thread ... But rema1000's post caught my eye ... Probably the RR has the short to ground ... but check the alternator anyway ... atleast to eliminate goats ...
Cool.
Srinath.

John - Yeah, I was thinking about the "load", more than the actual clutch circuit.  Looking at the diagram, I don't think the clutch switch / starter relay has anything to do with it, especially since I had the starter relay totally unplugged from everythng last night, during the "ignition off" frenzy.

Srinath - I went down to the garage a few minutes ago (it's a trek.  nowhere near my apartment...) to get my manual and test those three leads.  I was getting about 1.5 ohms between all the different combinations of leads to the stator.  It would fluctuate between 1.4 - 1.6, but mostly sat at 1.5.  I didn't have a chance to read your post yet, so I tested ground to the negative battery terminal, and got "infinity" on all three.  (When my volt meter isn't touching anything, it says "1".  I am assuming that's infinity)

-Jason

OK then ... RR is toast ... shorting to ground ... test its leads to ground ... one of them has a connection to ground I'll bet.
Cool.
Srinath.

When you say "test its leads to ground", what am I looking for exactly?  Something other than infinity?

Some like that ... see the RR test isn't that easy ... its all logic driven ... might me switched and then short to ground and that switching occours only when running ... Best bet, try a known good RR ... or atleast one with a different issue ... like not charging ... that way it wont blow a fuse as you try to let out the clutch ... it wont charge the battery, but hey that's a different problem ...
Cool.
Srinath.

Yeah, I was getting all sorts of strange readings off it.  Like all the yellow wires should read 6 ohms between them, but they read infinity.  I also got no reading between the red and black/white wires, which should read 40 ohms.  The book said to start the bike and let it warm up first, but my Yosh pipe is pretty loud, and I didn't wanna disturb the neighbors.  I also don't have the super secret Suzuki tester, as per the Clymer manual.  Oh, and there's always the fact that I have no flippin idea what I am doing!!   :mrgreen:

Anyone know what year(s) are compatable with 1989?  I saw one page say 89-97, but we all know that doesn't really mean anything...

I thought I'd bump this back up to the top.  Any second opinions before I order a really expensive part??

Quote from: mrblinkAnyone know what year(s) are compatable with 1989?  ...

I would think that any year R/R is compatible.  Even other bikes of similar or larger size, that have the same number of wires, 3 inputs (yellow)  and 2 outputs ( red, black).

It would be nice if you could test it before plunking down the bucks for a replacement.


At Electrexusa.com you will find a generic test procedure for stators and R/Rs.  Testing the R/R is no more difficult than what you have already done with the stator.  It does require a multimeter with a diode check function that reads in volts..

I'm in the process of rewriting this procedure to apply just to the GS.  I'm doing it just for my own benefit and I plan to test it on my GS.

If you're interested I can eMail a rough (untested) copy to you or anyone else who wants to try it.

Definitely interested!!  Thanks John.

Electrex has a test of the R/R diodes at http://www.electrexusa.com/Images/WORLDS_BEST_DIODE_TEST.pdf .   You need a multimeter with a diode-test setting, which should be marked with this symbol:
(http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/symbols/diode.gif)

There is also a general Electrex regulator/rectifier test at http://www.electrexusa.com/Images/fault_finding.pdf , but normally you're testing whether it is producing voltage in the correct range... not popping fuses.  But it also tells you how to test A/C voltage between the three alternator leads while the bike is running.
There's an explanation of the R/R at http://www.electrexusa.com/electrex_tech_charging.html

Be sure to inspect the wires at the R/R for an intermittent short.  I've never heard of a R/R which actually blew fuses, but who knows?

This is all great info.  I'm pretty sure my multimeter has that setting.  Someone on this site has a used R/R off a 96 for a good price.  I'm gonna do these tests either tonight or tomorrow, and make some sort of final diagnosis.

Quote from: John Bates
At Electrexusa.com you will find a generic test procedure for stators and R/Rs.  Testing the R/R is no more difficult than what you have already done with the stator.  It does require a multimeter with a diode check function that reads in volts..

I'm in the process of rewriting this procedure to apply just to the GS.  I'm doing it just for my own benefit and I plan to test it on my GS.

If you're interested I can eMail a rough (untested) copy to you or anyone else who wants to try it.

I now have a tested copy of the electrexusa test chart rewritten to apply specifically to the gs500.  If anyone wants a copy just email/pm me.

John (and whoever else...) -

I ran through your sheet, and came up with the following:

STATOR TEST

8. Stop the engine. Disconnect the wires coming from the stator.  Switch the multimeter to Ohms, the lowest range on the meter. Measure the resistance between all three combinations of two wires coming from the stator, so you need to take three readings.

If one of the readings is lower than 0.5 Ohms or higher than 2 Ohms go to 9.

If all readings are within 0.5 to 2.0 Ohms go to 10.

all of my readings were ~1.8 ohms[/i]

10. Connect one of the multimeter-leads up to one of the three YELLOW wires. Connect the other multimeter lead up to the engine-case. Check the reading on the meter. Make sure the connection to the engine case is a good one!

If you have any reading lower than 100 Ohms go to 11.

If you have no reading at all or OL on the display go to 12.

I got no reading on any of the yellow wires

12. Switch the multimeter to AC-Voltage (Range at least to 100 Vac). Make sure you DON'T switch it to DC-Voltage (=DCV or Vdc).  Start the engine and rev it up to about 5000rpm. Measure the voltage between all three combinations of two wires coming from the stator, so you need to take three readings.

If the three readings are not equal, or one of them is below 50 Volts (AC) go to 13.

If three equal readings, all higher than 50 Volts AC, the stator is good, go to 14.

2 of them read about 86 volts @ 5,000 RPM.  The third one read about 82 volts.  I don't know if that's close enough or not

R/R TEST:

My multimeter HAS a diode test setting, however, the readings are kind of goofy.  See below:

14. Disconnect the RR red and black-white wires from the bike. Switch the multimeter to the DIODE-TEST function. (The reading on the display will be in VOLTS now, not in Ohms!) Connect the RED multimeter-lead to the RED output wire of the RR.
Connect the BLACK multimeter-lead to one YELLOW wire. Check the reading. Repeat this procedure for
the two other YELLOW wires.

If the meter shows 1.00 V or lower on one of the three tests go to 15.

If the meter displays OL or a voltage above 1.5 V on all three tests go to 16.

One of the yellow wires read "663", while the other two had no reading.

16. Connect the BLACK multimeter-lead to the red output wire of the RR. Connect the RED multimeter-lead to one YELLOW wire. Check the reading. Repeat this procedure for the two other YELLOW wires.

If the meter shows lower than 0.2 V or higher than 1.0 V on one of the three tests go to 17.

If the meter displays around 0.5 V on all three tests go to 18.

The three readings are a follows: 464, 490, 512

18. Connect the BLACK multimeter-lead to the negative BLACK/WHITE output wire of the RR).  Connect the RED multimeter lead to one YELLOW wire. Check the reading. Repeat this procedure for the two other YELLOW wires.

If the meter shows 1.00 V or lower on one of the three tests go to 19.

If the meter displays OL or a voltage above 1.5 on all three tests go to 20.

I got NO reading from any of the yellow wires

20. Connect the RED multimeter-lead to the negative BLACK/WHITE output wire of the RR.  Connect the BLACK multimeter-lead to one YELLOW wire. Check the reading. Repeat this procedure for the two other YELLOW wires.

If the meter shows lower than 0.2 V or higher than 1.0 V on one of the three tests go to 21.

If the meter displays around 0.5 V on all three tests go to 22.

The three readings are as follows:  494, 514, 508

I sure hope that helps.  If I had to make a guess, I would say that the stator is fine, and the RR is faulty.  Please review and give me your diagnosis.

-Jason

my two (albeit used) stators both read .7 or .8 across the yellows. One has cracked resin and looks like crap (on the bike now) the other looks good..)

John - No decimal points.  The numbers are just whole like that.  The manual for my multimeter has 1 paragraph of useless information about the diode setting.  If I had to guess, I would say that there's a decimal point on the left side.  That would make sense for the .5 volt readings.  When it's infinity, it has a 1 on the left hand side of the screen.  Readings are on the right side.

I think I need a Fluke.  I used a Fluke at my last job (photo lab repair tech), and it always worked and made sense.  The documentation for my current (no pun intended) meter sucks.

Man!  Fluke's are expensive!  I guess you get what you pay for though.  Anyone here ever use a "BK Precision" meter?  They look a lot nicer than my current meter, and are less than half the price of a Fluke.

Yes, Flukes are $$$.   My employer gave all us engineers one for being good I guess. :roll:

I think BKs are very good also. The BK2860A would be great with just about the same accuracy as my old F 77 and at half the price of the current F77.

I used a small pocket sized Micronta that I bought at a garage sale along side the Fluke when I made my RR measurements and read nearly the same values. For our use, I don't think you need to pay more than about $35.
:cheers:

I was looking at the 2704B.

http://bkprecision.com/www/np_searchmodel7.asp?lf=Tool+Kit+%AE+Multimeters

About $60, and my local Fry's might have em in stock.  I think I'm gonna check it out tomorrow.  I need a new toy.

The 2704B has capacitor and transistor functions not found on the 2704A model.  If you don't do electronic ckt design/repair then save $20 and get the A version. The A is totally adequate for gs500 troubleshooting.

Got my new 2704B multimeter, and it looks like the RR failed the first test, but passed all the rest.  Here are the results:

Test 14 - .518, OL, OL
Test 16 - .451, .517, .534
Test 18 - OL, OL, OL
Test 20 - .520, .535, .531

One of the positive diodes (test 14) blew it's top! :guns:

Hope that solves the problem.   :cheers:

You have a nice meter there. :thumb:

Well, did you figure it out yet, MrBlink? I'm definitely saving this thread in case I get any electrical trouble.  :roll:

It looks like the Regulator/Rectifier is bad.  I'll know for sure when I get a new one.

Quote from: John BatesI now have a tested copy of the electrexusa test chart rewritten to apply specifically to the gs500.  If anyone wants a copy just email/pm me.

Something for the FAQ section, dontcha think?

World's simplest R/R & Stator test:

-Unplug the nylon connectors between the R/R and the bike.
-Set the multimeter to Diode Test.
-Hook one multimeter lead to either the red or black R/R wire.  Touch the other multimeter each to each of the three yellow wires, one at a time.  You should get about the same reading on each of the three.
-Flip the multimeter leads around (red<=>black) and repeat.  You should get about the same reading on each of the three yellow wires.

Now connect the multimeter to the other R/R lead and repeat (test to each of the three yellow wires, then flip the multimeter leads and test again).  With each test of three wires, you should get about the same reading on each of the three wires.

With the bike off and the meter set to Ohms, resistance between any two yellow wires should be similar.  Checking resistance between any yellow wire and the bike frame should give about the same reading.  With the bike running and the meter set to AC, checking the volts between any two yellow wires should give about the same reading.

Such rough tests won't tell you if you're running within spec, but should tell you if you have Goats, shorted winding, blown diode, etc.    It's good to do the "real" tests, but it's much easier to remember that any test you do between a yellow wire and something else should give about the same result with any of the three yellow wires.

Quote from: Rema1000World's simplest R/R & Stator test:

In a nutshell..... You've got it! :cheers:

Just installed the RR I got off Ebay for 50 bucks.  Rode it around the complex, and so far so good!!  I'll know more when I take it on a long ride, but I think we fixed it (unless it's Goat's that killed the RR..).  Thanks to everyone for all the help, especially John Bates.  Woo-hoo!!!

-Jason

I just took the bike to the mall, and it ran perfectly.  Yay!!