last sunday I went for a ride up to the Crest. there were many bikers there seeing as how this was one of the few open canyons after the rains and one of the first clear days since the rains as well.
Quite a few 600rr's around. One guy had a 2 week old 600rr that was already crashed. he told me it happened that morning, "cold tires" or some such BS. At the far end I hooked up with that same group heading back...same guy crashed his rr again, hitting some gravel and lowsiding on the same side.
So I had to ask, "is this your first bike?"
He says, "No, I started on a gs500f. But I got bored with it after 3 months so I bought the rr".
I tell him he should go back to the gs500 and get more practice with throttle control-since thats what caused his first crash, not "cold tires". he said he might do that since he still had it.
So why dont people see the value in starting on a smaller machine? I mean, I didnt get to ride like this after only 2 years by starting on a smaller machine pablo's trackday video (http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/bc/4afe2da7_m418cc391/bc/videos/Pablo+and+I+10mb.wmv?BCV5BACBpXHXzvK2)
grrr. Drives me insane. Girls dont seem to have an ego problem starting on a 250 or so. Why do guys? Rhetorical.
I agree. I had my 250 for 14 years, but I do admit that it wasn't my first. I would say my first purchase was based in ignorance. 250's are cool; 'specially the Ninja. If all I could afford was a brand new Ninja, I'd happily buy one. (I know I could buy something used, I'm just making a statement.) There was a girl I ended up following that was so smooth, I couldn't pass her. I was impressed!
Could'nt agree with you more pantablo. I have dreamed and bought over 10 bikes in my head. I am glad I have the will power to stick with the GS. I am a married man with 2 beautiful girls (they help me keep things in perspective). I will be approaching 2 years with the Gs this August. I currently have put about 8,000 mile on my GS and I am still reading, practicing, and constantly learning.
For me it's aesthetics. I like the newer body styles of bikes and larger rear tires. It may sound shallow, but it is the truth. For the type of riding I do, the 500 has plenty of power (mostly twisties and city driving).
I may be getting a new bike at the end of this year ...... ? I hope I will be ready.
Quote from: scratch
There was a girl I ended up following that was so smooth, I was impressed!
Wowee Scratch ... does Mrs. Scratch know about this ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Oh...um... :oops: It wasn't my fault, she had the right of way at the three-way stop. I tried to make a pass her...I mean, I tried to get past her. I was just observing that she was a real smooth rider. I was impressed not aroused! oh, bother...
Pablo, your trackday link is broke.
People always scoff and say "Haha man I bet you're ready for a bigger bike" or something like that, to which I reply "Not really." Not everyone, but about 25% of people.
They laugh, until I sweet past their R1 on the outside of a tight corner.
The people I ride with regularly have a lot of respect for the the GS and I because we eat them alive on the corners, even though we can't rip them in a straight out drag.
The ones that don't learn.
I wish I had the video we did one day of me making 8 foot diameter circles, scraping the center stand on my GS. Everyone is always amazed, even though I can only do about 6 before I get dizzy and have to stop.
i've managed to rack up 11k miles since last june. yeah, I'd like to get a bigger bike, but I can hold off a while longer. right now i've decided to try sprucing up the gs, add just a little more power and stick another 10k or so on it.
I saw that story on socalsportbikes. I wish i could afford just one new bike and this kid has 2. That and he had just passed the MSF course a couple weeks before he got the 600rr.
I was seriously thinking about picking one of those up as well but I thought back to the advice of improve the rider, not the ride.
Out riding PCH on Sunday my GS felt pretty loosey-goosey on that fast, sweeping curvy section before you get to Camarillo. I couldn't help but think that a more solid and precise bike would be safer and inspire more confidence.
I know, I've heard all the arguments - it's the rider, not the bike... but still!! Between the spongey suspension and narrow tires, I have to say, the GS isn't living up to all the hype that I've been reading on the internet for the last few months. It's great around town, but in the canyons it's like riding a donkey in the Kentucky Derby! ;)
Despite my gripes, I don't plan on getting the SV I want for a while yet. So, don't worry! :mrgreen: I guess if I can learn to ride my donkey fast, I'll be even faster on a thoroughbred.
Yeager, you and I have similar experience. The GS is a solid bike, but is not all that its hyped up to on this site. Its a great beginner/commuter bike, but this "we destroy them in the corners" nonsense needs to stop.
The GS does handle well in the corners, but to believe that a 380 pound, economy suspended bike has anything on a well-sprung modern 600 is an excercise in fooling yourself. I am faster everywhere on my TL because I am more confident in its ability, particuluarly the brakes and suspension. The GS sorely lacks in these areas.
Just because someone goes out and picks up a non-GS doesn't mean that they are going to spread themselves all over the landscape. That guy with the ARGH-ARGH easily could have wadded the GS on a group ride. Group rides are notorious for inadvertently pushing riders past their limits.
The RR was not his undoing, it was his mentality. He did not learn from the GS, and probably would have laid it down given time and circumstance. I rode my GS for about 10,000 miles and am a better rider for it, but to assume that everyone needs a GS, or that the GS is the best beginner bike is short-sighted.
Aaron
Aaron, I'm sorry, but I've gotta disagree with you on this one.
I've ridden what used to be your bike...and yes, in the shape you had it, I would be much less confident in the corners on that than my own GS. You had the thick Al fork brace on it, but very low oil in the forks, blown out fork seals, stock springs, stock rear shock, etc. All of that, along with your Avon AV45/46 140/80 tire combo make for a very sketchy ride. Maybe if you'd put some real tires on it, along with the standard suspension mods that almost everybody makes to their GS, you would have a different opinion.
Quote from: JohNLAPablo, your trackday link is broke.
alright, go here and click the "Pablo and I" video:
http://f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/mr.sparky@sbcglobal.net/lst?.dir=/videos&.view=lor try this direct link to the video:
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/bc/4afe2da7_m418cc391/bc/videos/Pablo+and+I+10mb.wmv?BCV5BACBpXHXzvK2you might have to cut and paste URL into browser.
Aaron, I get your point but I still think the GS is a far better first bike.
You can learn the basics of riding easier. And the soft suspension is fine for learning twisty riding. But you're right that once really pushed the bike gets all out of sorts. Even with the suspension upgrades I had done (progressives and a gsxr rear shock, good tires) I was riding beyond the bikes capabilities. I was immediately fast on the RR because of this.
On stock suspension (in good working order) the bike is okay to start taking twisties easily or moderately but it is a limiting factor. I think the gs still lives up to its first bike reputation. The pace those guys from the socalsportbikes ride I hooked up with was slow enough that a gs would not have had any issues. And I agree that he would have crashed his gs just the same. Unfortunately he had the F. Had he learned on a used naked gs the lesson he [hopefully] got wont cost him $1k to repair in bodywork.
I'm gonna agree with Pablo on this, because the rider has to learn a skill to compensate for a "poorly" suspended bike. A poorly suspended bike is going to expose any riding errors in input. You learn to be smooth on the front brake, so the front end doesn't dive so hard. You learn to get your braking done before the turn, so you don't have any upsetting chassis attitude adjustments mid corner. I'd rather learn confidence in my own skills, than in a bike. Ooh, there's a good signature tag line, "I'd rather have confidence in my own skills, than confidence in one single motorcycle". And because of that, then I can ride any motorcycle with confidence.
Oddly I am with Aplitz and Yeager sorta ...
OK at constant speed and raod comparisons ... aka The same curve at the same speed ... newer and better components make for afar better ride ... So your squirrely curve if you were clocking 60 on a GS and feeling like you're going to end up in the dirt, would have been a shade better on a bike with 1 notch better suspension and brakes ... Not to say you wont wad on that either ...
However The Modern day RR's are so far more powerful, and so track focussed in giving the rider the illusion of lack of speed ... they totally mislead you in finding the edge ... and hence you dont even know you are far over that edge ...
In anycase ... first learn the physics of motorcycling, then learn the limits ... and after that is when you are best suited for a step up ...
Cool.
Srinath.
as an interesting point of reference here's my experience with my upgraded gs and the rr:
On one stretch of angeles crest hwy (actually most of it) I could maintain a steady pace of 65mph with jaunts to 75 on the GS. That was the limit of what I was comfortable given what the bike was doing. This is with the gsxr rear shock and prog springs and good tires too. That same stretch on my RR sees speeds of 90mph with much more comfort and ease. The rr feels like it could be going much faster than that even.
On another "faster" section I could see 85mph on the gs through the sweeping turns and anything faster just felt like it was really too much for the bike. On the RR I go through the same section of road at about 110-125mph, again comfortably...uh, theoretically of course. :nono:
Wow, I'm surprised that a couple of you actually relate to what I'm saying. I was prepared for a good spanking.
You're right about needing to learn the basic physics of riding, and then the limits of the bike one rides. I'm a bit uneasy about learning the limits, becuase to really do that you need to go past the limits -which means CRASH. :o Screw that :mrgreen:
So far, I've enjoyed a life full of skateboarding, snowboarding, mountainbiking, and now motorbiking, without any broken bones or major mishaps. I leave the squidliness and face-planting to my buddies.
I yearn for a better bike because its limits will be much higher, thus less chance to crash IMO. The Suzuki SV650, or Yamaha YZF 600R (not the R6), are a couple of bikes that are built way more solid, but don't have a dangerous amount of power.
Again, I'm just whining, and will probably stick to the GS for about a year before moving up.
BTW, Pablo, that track day video was super freakin' cool.
Watched it twice.
thanks. Willow Springs Big track, its a fun [frikkin fast] track. i'm hoping to make it out there once a month march-december.
I hear you about the big track being fast. There is high school parking lot near my house that has all these funky islands and stuff. Boy, howdy. I can ride there any time after 6 or so at night!
Not many tracks around here to ride on (Kansas City, MO). Heartland Park, Topeaka, KS is near here, but not sure if they have track days. Also Kansas Speedway, but not useful either. Jealous.
Quote from: pantablo... One guy had a 2 week old 600rr that was already crashed. he told me it happened that morning, "cold tires" or some such BS. At the far end I hooked up with that same group heading back...same guy crashed his rr again, hitting some gravel and lowsiding on the same side.
So I had to ask, "is this your first bike?"
He says, "No, I started on a gs500f. But I got bored with it after 3 months so I bought the rr".
I tell him he should go back to the gs500 and get more practice with throttle control-since thats what caused his first crash, not "cold tires". he said he might do that since he still had it. ...
I think you have it right, Pablo. He doesn't have "The Touch" -- the balance of throttle, braking, and positioning into a turn that maximizes traction reserves.
I believe anybody can acquire "The Touch" on any bike. The challenge is discipline and control. The GS500's more timid power makes this easier, but it's not hard to go wrong with my bike either.
It's all about the proper state of mind and respecting the risks of each situation faced while in motion.
Ride safe...
Quote from: aplitzYeager, you and I have similar experience. The GS is a solid bike, but is not all that its hyped up to on this site. Its a great beginner/commuter bike, but this "we destroy them in the corners" nonsense needs to stop.
The GS does handle well in the corners, but to believe that a 380 pound, economy suspended bike has anything on a well-sprung modern 600 is an excercise in fooling yourself. I am faster everywhere on my TL because I am more confident in its ability, particuluarly the brakes and suspension. The GS sorely lacks in these areas.
Just because someone goes out and picks up a non-GS doesn't mean that they are going to spread themselves all over the landscape. That guy with the ARGH-ARGH easily could have wadded the GS on a group ride. Group rides are notorious for inadvertently pushing riders past their limits.
The RR was not his undoing, it was his mentality. He did not learn from the GS, and probably would have laid it down given time and circumstance. I rode my GS for about 10,000 miles and am a better rider for it, but to assume that everyone needs a GS, or that the GS is the best beginner bike is short-sighted.
Aaron
I've destroyed everyone I've ridden with in the twisties, except for a turbo-charged busa. From 600 to 1000cc. If you don't believe me, come down here and ask them, they admit I'm the best in the corners.
If it's not the bike, then I must be a badass rider.
I've only ever ridden a 250cc suzuki at MSF and the my GS, but suspect that Pablo is right from experience with cars
I started out with a used '91 VW golf, and absolutely loved it. it had 13" wheels and a relatively spongy (75k miles old) suspension. Just like with a bike, as confidence in my driving skills improved, I was able to test the limits of the car, and because it's limits were so low when I pushed past them, the *punishment* was minimal, the feedback clear, and correction easy.
to clarify: with a little time under my belt, I had a pretty good notion of what speed "too hot" into a corner was for my little golf. fortunately that speed was pretty low, and when the tires would break free it'd be at a relatively low speed and I could easily correct before the situation became dire. I was able to comfortably learn the best way to corner and the best way to correct because everything was predictable, linear, and somewhat leisurely (i.e. happening at 45mph :lol:)
I later upgraded to with some eibach sport springs, and 14 (wow 14) inch wheels with more performance oriented rubber and noticed 2 very important facts:
1. the limit was higher
2. if you went past the limit, you had to respond faster because everything was happening faster
but the nice thing was I'd had TONS of experience approaching and passing the limit and TONS of time to learn what messages my car was sending me and how to respond to them.
so getting back to the bike issue, I'd imagine it's much the same deal. sure, that RR is gonna be equipped to slingshot you through that corner at a buck-twenty, but are you? Have you trained your body to be attuned to the feedback a bike's gives you when it's telling you you're near the limit?
I like it when the limit is lower so I can safely LEARN how to respond without needing to have the kind of hair-trigger reflexes 120mph demands. Or in other words, I'd rather get burned by a match than a flamethrower.
On the other hand (and sorry for the novel) but does it seem to anyone else like the major thing on a sport bike that could get someone into trouble is the ENGINE? not the tires or the springs or the flashy paintjob :roll: if all beginner bikes could easily hit a buck twenty I suspect there'd be a lot more beginners crashing.
Maybe they should install something like the corvette "chaperone" key on sportbikes. like a key that would serve to limit the speed to 75 mph or something. I would voluntarily use that on myself with a new bike while I was learning to ride it. then I could step up to the demands of the engine after I had acclimated myself to the weight, steering, acceleration, and handling with an imposed safety in place to keep my hormones in check.
Regards,
Riz
:thumb:
Riz, nice analogy. With the bikes I dont think its so much about getting to 120. I was able to get to 130 (indicated) on my 2001 gs but it took a week to get there, LOL... The tricky part of the sportbikes is how QUICK it all happens and how much happens with much less throttle application. This is why it takes less time to become proficient and eventually better at clutch/throttle control with a less powerful bike. I used to wring the crap out of my gs but I ride with a bit of restraint on the RR...The one time I tested the gears I saw 75mph in first (in the blink of an eye), 105 in second-yes SECOND gear! If you;re a newer rider these things can happen before you've even processed whats happening and you've already hit something...
That things happen on a gs slower is a good thing. I get a kick out of hearing people say things like "I got bored with it" because they dont realize that what they think is boredom is merely having gotten past the initial fear of riding. Its at that point, IMO, that the learning really begins.
I'm with Riz and Pablo on this one. The chief reason for starting out small is that the limits are approachable at sane speeds.
My GS has a totally blown suspension. The fork seals have been leaking visible quantities of oil since before I bought the bike, and the rear suspension cant be much better... it bottoms out if my 100 pound GF sits on the back of my bike.
But... I still take it to the twisties, and I still learn everything I can about cornering. Of course, I dont go very fast, because the bike pogos everywhere, but I"m learning a lot about the 'language' the bike communicates in, and what I can do to be extra smooth to get through the corners without upsetting the bike. Of course, surface imperfections *really* upset it (no damping! wheee!), so I wont commit to any corner thats rough... but I'm definitely getting quicker, learning how to lean over faster, use my body weight, etc. New fork seals and oil will be in the bike in a few days, and I think I'm going to do soemthing about the rear shock as well. After that... all I long for is better (smoother) throttle response. Its so jerky right now I cant apply much power when leaned over... I'm pulling out of corners a lot weaker than I know I could... but due to the chassis, I dont like carrying much speed *into* corners (bike wobbles and chatters whenever it gets flicked over quickly, then pogos around the corner with the front wheel hopping and pushing wide over any bumps). Anyway, that will be sorted... new tires, too.
I really relate to Riz's analogy of cars. My first was an 85 Honda Accord SEi, thankfully with a manual transmission. Understeered like a mofo.... but after 6 months or so of deliberately practicing spirited driving, I could put that car on a line, steer it in, and push it around a corner at its *exact* limit... any more steering input and the car would just push... any more gas and it would do the same. My next cars were an RX-7 Turbo followed an MR-2 Turbo. Same deal with those, though I didnt have the RX-7 long enough to really learn it that well.
i have to agree on teh slower / lower powered bike is better for starters. I started to ride on a moped, 60cc two stroke. It taught me to corner faster without scraping the pedals ( run wide before turning in). That helped me corner faster. Then I moved up to the 100cc kinetic honda which for all its worth was a scooter with its heavy end on the rear and the front really light. Cornering with that was different from the moped, it cornered slower and not like it was on rails. The moped really cornered on rails at times i was hitting the edge of its ridablity.
I moved on to the GS in 2001 and initially the weight was the big factor to get used to. Had i started out in a 250 ninja i think i would have learnt to be smooth much faster. It took a while to get used to the weight of the bike in a corner before i could corner faster.
Even thoughi havent ridden the GS in a while, I still corner fine once i have been on the bike for a while and gotten used to it. I know when i get on after months of not riding i have restart like a newbie (more the reason why i havent upgraded).
The suspension makes a big diff. I used to have stock springs front and back when i first started to ride with pablo and crew. It used to scare me at some turns as I would push it in and the rear wheel would squirm in and out. I told pablo about it and he said "change your rear shock". So I put on a katana shock out back. That helped my cornering a lot but because i am an agressive rider in the dry and I corner harder i found the rear was stable at high speed with smooth throttle but the front was sliding out a bit due to the soft front. I wasnt able to go into a turn hotter than i am used to.
I changed the front shocks to progressive (lazy way) and that helped the bike corner, infact it was really fast at some turns. I havent ridden it much since kerry helped me put on new fork seals. I got to fix the jetting issue one of these days but the last time I rode it it was cornering really fast. It felt a tad bit more "harder' and felt i was bouncing around a bit. But i guess i will get used to that.
Starting small is the best way to go, When i ride the bike after not riding for a while and get used to it, i corner much faster and i am far better a rider than someone who is starting a fresh on a higher powered bike.
Tony-
I don't know about all that being wrong with my old bike. It was not showing any signs of blown fork seals or low oil. I had it looked at by a local suspension guru and he said everything checked out.
The reason I did not install progressives and the GSXR shock is because thats like putting a $3000 set of wheels on a '95 Civic hatch. Its still a Civic. The GS is not made to work with that level of suspension, and really will only be viable for track/very aggressive riding.
Eklipse-
You must be a badass rider. Thats the only explanation, or maybe you should go ride with some more experienced people. Several of the people I ride with also race at the club level, and will hand you your ass. The GS will be sucking air at this evevation (4700 ft base) and be eaten alive going up the hills. Coming down you may stay closer, but a modern 600 still weighs the same as the GS and has better suspension and brakes.
Lastly, I truely believe in the starter bike concept. However, I also believe that better quality bikes should be used. I'd love to see a Bandit 400, or baby SV under every new rider. You just can't convince me that a sub-par chassis is a good place to learn.
Quote from: pantablo... I get a kick out of hearing people say things like "I got bored with it" because they dont realize that what they think is boredom is merely having gotten past the initial fear of riding. ...
Agree. IMHO, boredom is a sign of an uncreative mind. ;) Oh, and let's never loose all of that fear -- I think it's called defensive riding.
Roy...
Quote from: aplitz.... I'd love to see a Bandit 400, or baby SV under every new rider. You just can't convince me that a sub-par chassis is a good place to learn.
what makes you think the bandit or sv suspension is any better? They're all built to a budget standard. And there are bandit 400's in other countries and sv400's in japan.
Sorry, I didn't explain that well. What I would like to see is a bike in the spirit of the small Bandit and SV but with better componetry. They sell bikes like these overseas, but not really here. Americans probably wouldn't buy them in large numbers, so I guess we can only hope that inexperienced riders gravitate toward bikes that will help them learn to be better riders. I think the GS fits the bill about as well as anything currently. Its just a pet peeve of mine when people think that given equal riders a GS will take a modern supersport.
Quote from: aplitz.... that given equal riders a GS will take a modern supersport.
I dont think anyone ever suggested that to be true. When out on the road though (with not equal riders) a gs can usually hold its own, if not surpass a sportbike rider. With equal riders the sportbiek wins hands down, like in the examples I used of my speeds on my gs vs my 600rr on the same roads.