I just have to ask. Religion has been brought up in other threads and I'm curious. Why exactly do you believe in a God? Because you are told to? Because it's the only possible answer to the mysteries of the universe? Enlighten me...
Quotea reply to some of the aforementioned posts. you cant prove to me that god did not exist, and i cant prove to you (scientifically) that he did. except through my faith.
let me give you a quote from a preacher.
" a puppy grows up to be a dog, a kitten grows up to be a cat, a human child. is basically the only being that has the opportunity to chose what type of person he/she becomes":
answer me this, why is it that basically all creatures, (except us), have "evolved", but theyve not evolved much. compared to us. no internet, cars roads, houses, the gs500 microwaves computers, etc etc, etc, etc.
why is it that nothing else has done so much, for their kind?
if i offended any of you, i do apologise Kissyface
_________________
Proof is not the issue, belief is. I happen to come from a country where less than 3% of the population attend Church but a huge majority say they believe in God or indeed Gods.
If anyone could prove, or indeed disprove, the existance of God, that proof in itself would destroy the basic building block of religion which is faith. If you knew there was no god... If you knew there was then you would be pitching up for Church/Temple/Chapel/Synagogue for all the wrong reasons.
I think it's something people find within themselves, some exercise the choice to believe in God, some to disbelieve, and some just don't know.
Why do they believe, I fall into one of the latter categories so I am not the person to answer. Although I can't believe I do admire faith in others and envy, just a little, the fortitude and comfort they gain from their beliefs. Having said that I tend to blame "established" religions for a lot of the problems in the world, it's the ones with God on their side who are dangerous. What agnostic ever started a war but that's another issue.
Lastly I am sure that it is perfectly possible to live to a decent moral code, be a happy and fulfilled person without a religion but to those who have "found God" good luck to them, like I said they probably found her inside themselves.
I don't believe in god in the way any organized religion believes in it. There's something out there and I can't explain what it is. That's all I know. I'm open to hearing what other people think and always respect their opinions, but I've never been presented with the answer.
I loved Cal's response and I do not think I will try to add anything to it other than to say I do have faith in JC...and I love the GS500, this forum and all of you. :kiss:
C.......
Ah yes! Philosophy is not that far removed from Theology.
Cal's point of belief refocused the discussion from Rocker's question of belief "...in a God?" (which I might point out is interesting that it was capitalized and not lower case). The concept of belief needs more thought here.
I think we only act on those things we believe. If a person is in their right mind, they would not normally stick their hand into a flame. They believe it will be burned and cause subsequent pain and misery. :o When we were young children, this is one of the first real actions, that had an immediate consequence, that we shifted from an idea to a belief.
The idea of a god or gods is part of human nature just as is the rejection of the same idea. To complete this line of thinking, the uncertainty of a god or gods rounds things out.
So to finish this post, I think we embrace the idea, reject the idea, or are uncertain about the idea because of how we are raised AND how that fits into our personal choices of how we live.
Yes, organized religion has caused much misery in the world. Clearly though, the agents of this misery have been men and their interpretation of what they think their god directs or desires.
Kant, Luther, Paine and legions of authors, teachers, and clergy for generations have wrestled with this. When I get old, (that's another topic in itself) I think my reply will be "I do not believe what I believe is any of your business." :)
yeah, he keeps changing his home number do to solicish callers.
No really, I was raised to belive in God and Jesus and commandments. while i was young i followed it for a time. as i grew i saw and expeirenced things that for one reason or another the "Book" could not answer clearly enough for me. found it hard to belive every bad was the makings of one being, and everything good was also of one being [10 year old thinking]
now, most Bad or evil things have Up sides somewhere and some goodthings had down sides and this really confused me and the answers i kept getting was GOD,Jesus,the Bible more to the point, ALL answers Were in the Book. A book of interpritations from many, written by many, and translated by many. The phrase "Because the Book says so" soon told me that was the end of the line, that everyones answers came from the same book. and there was no way to prove or Disprove the sources.
i have my own belief. i try to be a good person,TRY to enjoy life. i take good with the bad though wish it was more evenly delt at times. i also figure that if i am wrong when im dead,it wont matter a whole lot.
now, as to others, your faith or lack of is one of the few things that is totaly up to you. Nothing can nor has the right to Force you to believe anything.
a side note, it would be amusing to see Gods Footnotes for creating everything.
People like to feel "special". A good example would be when sports players win something, like the Superbowl for instance, one thing that the players are most likely to say when encountered by the media is: "First of all, I would like to thank God." I really believe that God had nothing to do with their winning. Usually they win because they played better than the other team. And what does that mean, that God favored the losing team less? What the sports players really should say is: "Sorry, God just loves us more. That's why we won." :dunno:
OK, first let me apologize in advance if I say some things that give offence. My intention is not to offend but to answer the question.
As a scientist I have been trained to critically analyse hypotheses on the basis of evidence. There is no such thing as proof in science in the sense of "beyond all doubt". A hypothesis is supported by the evidence and thus becomes more likely to be true, or is disproved by the evidence and thus shown to be false or at least inadequate and is discarded. The more evidence there is to support a hypothesis, particularly if that evidence comes from several different sources, the more reliable it is. Of course, as humans it is not possible for us to know everything there is to know about everything, so there will always be the possibility of new evidence debunking even an established theory. It must be kept in mind however that facts/data/evidence do not operate in a vacuum, but are filtered through the basic assumptions of the researcher. There is no such thing as totally free of bias. It's a matter of what your bias is and whether your bias is supported by the available evidence.
My biases are these- I believe the universe follows laws that are interpretable and predictable, which make the universe itself interpretable. I would not expect chance to produce this situation, so I do not believe the universe arose by chance. I believe the best available evidence from all fields of science support a recent sudden creation of the world and particularly the life on it, a recent sudden catastrophic destruction of the world's surface and its repopulation from somewhere in the Middle East. As this correlates closely with the descriptions given in Genesis, and differs widely from all other belief systems, I am convinced that the Bible is divinely inspired and is true in what it does touch on. It does not give us hard and fast rules for every situation, but gives our intelligence guiding principles to work out the right thing to do for situations where it is not explicit. As for Christianity being an easy option, there are millions in the world today being persecuted and killed for being Christian who would disagree with you. Understood properly, Christianity is not a belief system so much as a discipleship following the example of Jesus, who sacrificed EVERYTHING for those he loved. It is contrary to our nature and only achievable by maintaining a relationship with him. It is not achieved simply by trying to follow a set of rules, although the rules do help to define the relationship. Sorry if this went on a bit but this is not a simple question.
Just want to applaud what Michael and Yamahonkawazuki and Ed have stated and say that I'm extremely glad to see that Cernunos is back in force. :thumb:
Well, I beg to differ with you, Michael.
IMHO, Jesus did not give up "everything". Giving up everything means that you give up EVERYTHING....including the promise of an enjoyable afterlife, which he did not. He basically cashed in his chips for a one-way ticket to the good place for the price of a good old fashioned crucifixion.
If I could change water into wine, heal the blind, among other fancy tricks, I myself would have 100% faith that there was a supreme being and would feel more inclined to "walk into the valley of darkness", so to speak, a.k.a. "give up everything". And while nobody should have to experience a Passion style beating, it had to happen because it had to happen. If it hadn't then we wouldn't still be talking about Jesus 2000 years after his passing.
It's not like he lead a very normal life here on Earth. What did he have to live for? Wife? kids? The betterment of all humanity? He had to die to fulfill the scriptures. How convenient.
Well I want everyone to know, this comment isnt byassed, I have not ready any of the above posts before hand.
The way I look at it is this...
Everyone needs something to believe in, wether that be god, buddha, alla what have you. The belief (or faith) that a higher power exists, and has the power to punish or reward you at your time of passing weights greatly on those that believe. Think of a world where no one cared if they sinned. No one had anything to look forward to in the afterlife, and only lived for monetary value. That is certainly an earth I would not want to live on. Now, I will go ahead and say that I do believe in god, I do not attend church regularly, but I still believe. Its that belief that helps us (and me) get through very tough times. Like I said, everyone needs something to believe in, even if that something turns out to be false. Honestly, would you REALLY wanna be the one that made almost 85% question their faith, and in so may loose their morals? I for one woudl not want to spur that up.
Anyways, thats just my opinion on the whole thing. I REALLY hope this doesnt turn into a religous debate, and become tard fodder, that would suck as this thread has alot of possible intellectual comments.
And while we are quoting scripture, this has gotten me through ALOT of hard times, the deaths of friends, and the like:
Phillipians 4:13
"I can do everything through him who gives me strength"
Simply put:
"I can do all things through christ who strengthens me"
Yeah, congratulations people, we have kept out of the farm.
As most will have gathered, I am not a Christian but I am perfectly happy to believe there was a charismatic Nazerine wandering around and preaching 2000 years ago in the middle east. Just because "we" still talk about him proves nothing either way. We still talk about Ghengis Khan, Alfred the Great, Bodicea and loads of others, it simply means they left a mark of some kind.
The origional question was why do you believe in God and there is a temptation to turn this into an inter-religion-philosophy debate. I firmy believe that those who believe in god do so because they need to, this and what you are taught has a child gives most people a pre-disposition to be whatever they are, and believe whatever they believe. Not right, not wrong, just different. Perhaps only the agnostics can relate to that.
If all else fails, I can do an "Oscar Wilde" and do a deathbed conversion to Catholicism, as he said "Dying a catholic is acceptable, living as one is quite another matter"
dom i beg to differ with you, jc Did give up everything. everything of this world, was betrayed, by silas?, was arrested, basically railroaded into a death sentence, and was killed. if that is not everything, i do not know what is :dunno: if you read the bible, just humour me, try it, even if you are not a believer. god, jc, and the holy spirit are 1 and the same. i.e god the father, god the son (jc), and god the holy spirit. (after death)so in this life, he gave up his freedom and eventually his life, that in itself is everything. imo
Yama.... whilst I believe in tolerance, I cannot accept the Bible being used as a work of reference. It is the Jewish Old Testament followed by a lot of books written by a lot of people over a very wide timespan.
This does not make it untrue, nor indeed true. water into wine I believe, I have seen it done, English Rugby coaches have turned wine into water so why not?
I will concede that the Bible has some great stories and some truths but very few, even Christians, would say it was a caste-in-stone work of reference. Like another non-Christian, Ghandi, I often find myself quoting the Bible, like Ghandi, the sermon on the mount sounds a lot like reasonable common sense, I don't believe the loaves and fishes thing, they went for a day out and took packed lunches surely. "Render unto Ceasar" is often sound advice too. Good stories, good advice, a good self-help manual yes to all of those and lifestyle advice too but an encyclopedia it ain't.
Vernal Equinox soon, anyone for Stonehenge ?
ahhh, to each his/her own eh cal? :dunno:
Ah, a lot of good points here....
Christians, I'm wondering what you'd be believing if you were born somewhere else other than your "western" country. Perhaps Islam? Buddism? I think those who believe will believe no matter what it is they're believing.
Cal, how true you are, you beat me to the punch. The Old Testament is basically the Jewish Torah. The New Testament is basically "books" written by a LOT of different people over a hundred or more years to support Jesus and the Christian religion. Even in these days of video tape and newspapers we can't get/keep a story straight. I'm sure there was a LOT of literary license going on back then. There are many books that the church left out of the Bible because they "didn't like" them. Most read the "King James" version. You know what, your reading something that was edited and rewritten to suit these people. You're not reading the original words or even the original meanings.
Can I ask "where are the artifacts"? I mean if God gave me his laws on a tablet I'd keep them somewhere safe. There are NO true artifacts. All kind of stories of goblets, radios to God, etc. but nothing to touch.
There are 5 major religions in the world. Each believes the others are wackos and are outright wrong. Why is this?
Ok, now why DON"T I believe in God?
It's like this... Hope I can explain it. Michael started out great with his scientific method thing and then blew it when he said he believed anyway. Here goes. People say that God created everything. That the universe is just "too amazing to have just happened". Right? OK, then why DON"T you have a problem believing that a God just happened? I'm talking orders of magnitude more amazing here. A whole universe can't just happen but some guy who makes universes CAN just happen? Whoa! Thats just silly. Thats like saying a can of Coke couldn't have just happened, that someone must have made it. OK, I buy that. But you then have no problem believing that the Coke botteling plant "just happened" and nobody else built the plant.. You see, where I'm coming from here? If the universe didn't just happen and God DID do it, then God had to come from somewhere and then that something had to come from somewhere else, on and on. You just make the story more complicated when you add a god to it because a god is a LOT harder to make than a universe and the life in it.
Tell me this, what happens if they find evidence of life on Mars? Doesn't that throw out your religious beliefs that God made life here and here alone?
Here is another... Why do you need to pray to God? What, he's insecure in himself? Why does he "need" to be worshiped? Most all religions have worship in one form or another. Don't do the "right" things and BAM, you're out. How could "perfect" God allow the Devil? Just something to do? Bored with everything running smoothly? Screwed by your right-hand-man, not very all knowing, all powerful to me. Why isn't there a big thing that God made just to house the "rules" so we can be sure that we know what is expected to go to heaven? Why do we have over 5,000 different religious sects each with their own ideas? Why send your son to die for our sins? What is THAT all about? What is the point? I don't get the reasoning. Why worship the SON and not God? So, we're just Gods ant farm? Follow some arbitrary and caprecious rules and go to Heaven, don't do the right thing and off to Hell? How about this, Christ is the only way to Heaven right? What about all the people in tribes living in the jungles of Brazil or the islands of the Pacific who could NEVER know of Jesus? Are they committed to Hell? Or is it only those who have heard but don't believe? So, 4/5ths of the world is doomed to Hell.
Do I KNOW the answers? No. Do I believe blindly in things without SOME kind of evidence? Again, no. This is what I think just as you believe what you believe. Show me something, anything, without resorting to the old "you just have to believe, have faith" line and I'll rethink my position.
Each to their own sounds pretty good to me........... fascinating thread though.
Great thread... I love these discussions. Also I am so glad to see everyone behaving themselves ;). Here are the thought from an aspiring biophysical chemist....
God is a cool guy. I can't understand why so many people have trouble reconciling a 15 billion year-old universe with creationism. The bible describes the creation of a sky, and earth, oceans, plants and animals, etc in seven days. So the literalists I can understand having a problem. but come on people... Jesus Himself taught using parable, so why not the bible? days, years, epochs... its all the same to the supreme creator of all things, wouldn't you agree? The take-home point in Genesis is that God created it all. I personally don't care to split hairs over 7 days of 15 billion years... a wave of his hand, or billions of years of evolution... God did it in His own sweet time.
And my opinion on religion. Religion is great, but it is nothing without spirituality. Religion is believing and following someone else's god.. (i.e. the writers of the Bible, the vatican, or any other religious institution). spirituality is having found your own connection to God. A serious connection with a being of greater power is necessary to begin to understand why the religious are .. well .. religious. Picture a man going to church, doing all the things the pope tells him to do but holding no real connection to God... that would be one miserable man. so why are so many Christians (Muslims, Buddhists, etc) so content and happy with their lives? its not the Religion that carries the most weight... it is the Spritiuality.
I think that this lack of spirituality and/or unwillingness to admit that scripture isn't always a historical account is why many people become so jaded with religion. they are focusing way too hard on the wrong part of it all... putting the cart before the horse as it were.
my 0.02
Yes ! Yes! We are all "spiritual" to some degree, even us non-can-goists.
deep philosophy here about the human conciousess, do we all tune in to a small part of one great conciousness or do we exist in isolation or a combination of both ? I haven't a clue but for that is the "big" question. Spiritual conciousness and a moral code should see us through and if, if, if I find myself in some celestial dock being judged at some point so be it.
Some religious folk may say that a spiriuality is a God or God substitute but lots of cultures particularly those who were fixated with the passing of the seasons, the Sun and Moon and fertility were spititual without actually believing, say, that the Sun was actually God. Be a pagan, get out more!
Why do some people believe in God? That's way too complex to answer.
I believe there are 3 things:
Some are taught to believe
Some are looking for a reason for the existence of everything around us and the universe
Some have a belief inside that they can't explain. They are drawn to believe in their hearts.
I'm in the last group. I believe in science and the explainations for how the universe was created and our planet. I believe things evolve and have changed over the millenia. Yet I believe there was something larger that put things into motion. God made the rules of the universe, physics, evolution, everything really. When people say the earth was created in 6 days I always think to myself 'How long is a day to the creator?' A billion years? Half a billion? Maybe he decides how long a day is. God created man so we are told. Maybe it was divine intervention that made the first primate to stand on 2 legs and become more than what it was. Not sure but it's possible.
Maybe my views are skewed and wrong. But somehow deep inside I think there is something that is larger than us and incomprehendable... and yet we are connected to it.
This is just by opinion. Your mileage may vary.
Go watch Constantine.
I've met alot of Christians in my day, and am related to several...my dad is a devout Catholic and attends Church every Sunday. He travels for a living so he'll even attend church if he happens to be in New Orleans, New York, or Paris. But the one thing he has never done, aside from sending me to Catholic schools for fourteen years, is try to sell me on religion. I honestly believe that the Catholic schools in my neighborhood provided me with an excellent education, potentially better than what I might have received by attending public schools. The reason why he has never verbally pushed me toward religion is because that's not his personality type, he let me be on such matters. My point regarding religion is that some people's personalities, for whatever reason, cause them to be more adamant about their faith. So regardless of what religion they belong to they will approach it with the same vigor, or passivity if that is the case, whether they are Cristian, Buddhist, Muslim, or Hindu.
Regarding the origin of the universe I believe it has always been here... Nobody or thing created it, it's just always been. The reason why I believe that is because the recipe just doesn't make sense....How do you get something from nothing? It's contradictory to everything else that we are taught to believe. It reminds me of the way that parents will console a child who is afraid of their dark bedroom by telling them that the Boogieman doesn't exist, yet they encourage them to believe in other fictional characters like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and since I'm an athiest I'll throw God into that bunch.
God invented the idea of "cool", right? So if he is all knowing and understanding, wouldn't he understand why I choose not to believe in him? He must be aware that he has provided me with a lifetime of contradictions and really can't expect me to, right?.
think of it this way... when you were a kid, maybe I love YOU or dad made you get a shot to protect you from crippling disease. They loved you, but they hurt you!!! How terrible and contradictory of them!!! Ah, but there is a caveate here... your brain/phsyche was underdeveloped and could not comprehend the future consequences of the situation of that day. Your undeveloped mind only understood that your parents put you in pain. You did not have the ability to think and operate on the same level as your parents. You were an inferior creature.
same thing with God, Buddah, Allah, whatever diety you choose.
to assume that our feeble minds can understand the reasons and consequences of everything that happens to/around us is pretty arrogant, wouldn't you agree? So to pass judgement on a diety for being mean to us or putting us in harm's way just doesn't fly with me.
I guess one of the points that is coming through in a lot of these posts is that the thread started with the wrong question. Rather than asking "why do you believe in God?" perhaps a better question might have been "what is the 'god' you believe in and why?". Most posters have basically answered that one one way or another.
In response to my blowing my own argument out of the water, I think we all have to admit that if we look far enough into anything, eventually we run out of evidence, either because its not there or because our methods are incapable of detecting it at that point. When we reach that point, we have stepped onto the ground of "faith". Its there we have to let our experience and what we have learned so far guide us into what is most consistent with previous evidence and what we already know. Sometimes we just have to say "I don't know for sure" and wait for more answers. Science has been doing this for centuries, and if you read "On the Origin of Species" you will see that Darwin used this argument (lack of evidence yet) to bolster his theory in spite of what was already known.
excellent discussion here :thumb: ,
in the bible , cant remember where exactly, but when i find it, ill post it,
there is a saying something like this
"a day =1000 years, 1000 years = a day." years ago, someone in the scientific community, was trying to disprove?, gods existance, not for sure on that, but i digress, somehow you take the formula ive given , and it essentially matches the age of this planet. a lot of variables in that, ie leap year, different calendars, but somehow it matches up, ill try to find that info/article somewhere :thumb:
As far as the Bible reference, I think you're looking for
2 Pet. 3: 8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand a years, and a thousand years as one day.[/list:u]I can't help you on the article. :dunno:
I can't really articulate why I believe in God as well as I'd like, so I'll just point out a few people who have...
One of my favorite books is called Blue Like Jazz (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0785263705/ref=sib_rdr_dp/102-8608883-9286558). It's just the author's story of what he's learned about life and God. It's not preachy or anything like that, it's more like sitting down and talking to an old friend over coffee. At the Amazon link you can read the first six pages; I'd recommend checking it out, it's written very well and is just a beautiful book.
This story (http://blogs.salon.com/0001772/stories/2002/12/26/thePreachersStoryIn4Parts.html) is another good example. It deals with growing up in a religious family, but doubting God and how he worked through that.
Other than the original question, one of the big issues people seem to have is how to understand the Bible. This blog entry (http://www.internetmonk.com/bible.html) has helped me a lot with understanding what the Bible is and how to approach it.
The problem with society is that they like to label everything. "God" is probably one of the worst things to label as far as human history goes.
What is god? who is to say it is an entity or spiritual being when noone has actually provided proof of so? And who knows anything about "spirituality"? If you read through history, spirituality is basically the idea to strive for the betterment oneself. Doesn't that pretty much defunct "god" as an entity?
I can't say I believe in "god or JC" ; I am however a catholic. I believe in their practices..well, most of them. As with any religion, there's good and bad practices, the point of being a good person is to obviously do good things.
Then you come to the conundrum (sp?) that, something that is good for you could be bad for another individual. How do you resolve that?
The christian bible states that you are to sacrifice all worldly belongings, desires etc and you will be exhaulted in "heaven".
In books, bibles, etc..."written by man" ..JC was supposedly a divine individual. None of these materials ever show JC as being a human, having a family, living a normal life etc. Why? because he is used as something that society should strive for. Does that make it right? I don't know, to me that is a form of brainwashing. To depict an individual as divine and holy without stating his other flaws. This is pretty much for all religion. It is the sense of one divine individual to strive to be like...buddha, JC, muhammad.
So you tell me this...what is god again? to me god is something that was created to supplement human's nature to have hope and faith. It is a focal point that human society deem "necessary" to always have.
I believe in something...whatever you want to call it. Lets face it, something out there created us and gave us cognitive advancement. what it is, we may never find out. The way things are going with the world, it doesn't look like we ever will. God cannot possibly have this plan for the world where there's so much suffering and anguish while others lavish in worldly possessions and belongings.
I believe in faith...i believe in what is right and what is wrong...in god? i can't tell you until i'm dead....by then if he does exist, i'm sure it will be too late for me.
:icon_rolleyes:
;)
Quote from: Ed_in_AzLong ago, in my life as a teenager I tried a brief turn at atheism. I quickly rejected it, since it required such extreme levels of faith, and flew in the face of too much evidence, both scientific and common. There is too much design in the universe, from the simplest level to the most complex. Plus, who set off the big bang?. To believe, have unmovable faith in, betting your life, and perhaps eternity that all that exists was the result of some random actions that themselves are impossible, with no intelligent intervention involved, requires throwing too much evidence to the contrary, and too much valuable gray matter out the window for me.
Agnostism was never a personal option. If you move beyond "there is no god" to "maybe", you've just admitted the potential existence of a being whose power we humans cannot fully grasp. If such a being exists, it's easy to conceive it might expect something from the sentient beings it created. To believe and have unmovable faith that you are immune to any possible requirements of a creator, is too illogical for me.
I can't say i believe in an entity....I can say i believe in something...whether that be my own personal faith or hope is not important. What important is I refuse to believe in is an entity that's supposedly ONE. To me "divinity" is in all of us. It's a matter of practicing it and applying it to life. Do i believe in god? yes i do. do i believe in god as an entity...no i don't.
It sounds contradictory and confusing...but I suppose that's my way of thinking. Much like the idea of "god" it is something that is inexplicable. What's important is I believe in something, and that something gives me hope and faith in life.
Ed, Ed, Ed...
Atheism takes too much faith?!? Faith in what?
Here is what you said paraphrased: "There is too much design in the universe, who set off the big bang, random actions that were impossible with no intelligent intervention involved", so, there MUST be a "god".
Listen to that... If all that is impossible as you just said, too much design, there must be intelligent intervention to make a universe. Then...
Why oh why do you believe a "god" randomly happened? Wouldn't it be true that if a mere universe can't just randomly happen a "god" capable of creating this universe CAN"T possibly just happen? It's perfect logic. If the lesser of complicated things CAN"T possibly happen randomly then it follows that a MUCH more complicated thing CAN"T randomly happen. Think about it again... A WHOLE universe MUST have been "designed" by something, a "god", but that something, that "god" doing the designing wasn't itself designed by something else, it just happened, it's always been?
I mean if you're going to believe so forcefully in a "god" you MUST assume that this "god" was always there and randomly happened, right? Otherwise "god" has a "god" who created him. Now, if like some, you say that "god" isn't a "being" but a spiritual sense, then there is no use being in any religion or worshiping anything.
Besides, if there "is" a God, I'm SURE that he's smart enough to realize that when giving people "free thought" some of them MAY actually use it. Someone who doesn't make the rules absolutely clear and then punishes them is NOT all knowing, wise, or benevolent. It's a rigged game unless all parties are aware of the requirements. And it seems that at least 4/5ths of the world is at risk of losing unless ANY form of believing is OK.
What kills me are the "religious relativists", the ones who say they believe in God and believe the Bible but pick and choose exactly what parts they'll follow.
Believe me, I don't look down on believers, I'm just extremely curious as to WHY you believe so ferverently in something you've never seen, heard, touched, or can ever TRULY know until it's too late. It's much easier NOT to believe something than to believe.
Comments?
what the bible says, "for god so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son. whoever shall believe in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life", basically, the way it goes... you accept god/jc, you end up in heaven. deny him, =hellfire and damnnation. extreme pain, gnashing of teeth, FOREVER. take that as you will. once one ends up there, they are there, never to get out. :dunno:
:icon_confused:
QuoteBesides, if there "is" a God, I'm SURE that he's smart enough to realize that when giving people "free thought" some of them MAY actually use it. Someone who doesn't make the rules absolutely clear and then punishes them is NOT all knowing, wise, or benevolent. It's a rigged game unless all parties are aware of the requirements. And it seems that at least 4/5ths of the world is at risk of losing unless ANY form of believing is OK.
one thing this conversation is missing is the idea of the devil. one can argue at your point above that if god did give you freethought and choices, as a good "god believing" person, you are to control those thoughts.
like most religions say, temptations are supposed to be controlled and that will get you in god's good graces.
i'm not saying i believe in this, its just an arguement i can see a 'bible" reader would retort with. My beliefs are from my 2 previous posts.
:icon_confused:
Ed,
A test? Now THAT is a leap of faith. Give up your own free will here in the only world you know for something you BELIEVE will happen when you die. Man! I could NEVER go that route. It's EXACTLY what the Muslim suicide bombers think except thet get a better deal, a guaranteed 47 virgins!
The Devil, you bring up another of my points... If God is perfect, where did the Devil come from, it was his "right-hand-man" back in the day right? Hmmm, didn't see that coming? Not so perfect eh?
God doesn't have to function on my terms, he just has to follow logic. If a universe it too amazing to "just be" then a creator of a universe can't "just be". How can anyone/anything deny that?
There are just too many flaws in ALL the religous stories of god/creation for me to believe ANY of them. It's funny, seems to be ALL Christian reasoning here, where are the others? No Wiccans? Muslims? Hindi? Buddist? Their version of what we've been talikng about are far different that what has been said here...
Quote from: joerockerEd,
A test? Now THAT is a leap of faith. Give up your own free will here in the only world you know for something you BELIEVE will happen when you die. Man! I could NEVER go that route. It's EXACTLY what the Muslim suicide bombers think except thet get a better deal, a guaranteed 47 virgins!
The Devil, you bring up another of my points... If God is perfect, where did the Devil come from, it was his "right-hand-man" back in the day right? Hmmm, didn't see that coming? Not so perfect eh?
God doesn't have to function on my terms, he just has to follow logic. If a universe it too amazing to "just be" then a creator of a universe can't "just be". How can anyone/anything deny that?
There are just too many flaws in ALL the religous stories of god/creation for me to believe ANY of them. It's funny, seems to be ALL Christian reasoning here, where are the others? No Wiccans? Muslims? Hindi? Buddist? Their version of what we've been talikng about are far different that what has been said here...
much like the rest of society...you still see god as an entity. to me that's the main problem. remember that the word "god" is just a label. it gives somewhat meaning to the word. but what does that word truly mean is unknown.
Quote from: joerockerIt's much easier NOT to believe something than to believe.
This would not be said by someone who thinks of religion as a "crutch". I'm not saying that you DO think that. In fact, the statement makes religion sound almost noble in a way. :roll:
Quote from: joerockerGod doesn't have to function on my terms, he just has to follow logic.
I'm trying to figure out what it is that you
do believe. You must have some opinion about whether/where/when/how things began? Is time and/or space infinite? Can anything infinite be real? Is it logical?
I'm not playing the religion card. Not yet anyway. But rather than knowing what you
don't believe, I'm interested in what you
do believe.
PS - Logic can be a slippery slope to build on.
Obviously I am not the spokesman for all "non believers" but I don't agree that it is easier not to believe. If you accept the premise that most people follow a religion out of enlightened self interest, ie they want or expect to be "saved" / see heaven / reach a higher plain / find enlightenment or simply not burn in hell it is relatively easy to understand why believers believe. I am sure not all believers think like that but it is an underlying theme to a lot of religions. I am sure some believe just for the sake and joy of it, but not too many.
I have said before, belief must bring great comfort and fortitude in times of need, even, dare Ia say a misplaced belief. I often admire and envy people with that belief but just can't do it. That ain't easy.
How this philosophical / religious discourse related to WHY do you believe in God, I am not sure but it was inevitable. Nice to see it has not turned into an attack on "ungodly ******" or some particular group.
Quote from: Cal PriceNice to see it has not turned into an attack on "ungodly ******" or some particular group.
:thumb:
Thanks, my last (well maybe) last word on this one is that I'm with the poetic Abu Bin Adam on this one.
Kerry,
No, not really, the noble part. What I was saying is that I just cannot believe in something, especially with the conviction that others here do, in something that I cannot, using all the evidence I have, believe exists. I mean if you get down to brass tacks, each religion pretty much boils down to one book. The Jews have their Torah, the Christians the Bible, the Muslims the Qaran. ALL the arguments these people make are based on something in a book that is thousands of years old. In the Bibles case, it was written over a period of a hundred or more years and has been since revised and rewritten. There are several versions today. I mean people who were not even born yet when Jesus died contributed to the Bible. Changes were made 1,000 years later. It's NOT like you're reading the true word of God. At least with the Qaran it's supposedly God talking directly through Muhammad.
I have no REAL idea how everything started. That is my point, neither does anyone else. I read scientific magazines/books who's theories are constantly changing. And each time it gets more and more complicated which leads me to continue to believe that nobody just went poof and everything was magically made. And if they did, how did they get poofed themselves? Religious people seem to blindly follow the herd that are weaving quite a yarn. The story of creation is quite frankly to me a fairy tale. Something waved it's hand and voila, there is the universe. OK, how did this all-powerful being come to be? It's crazy to believe that story. And, more crazy to believe that we're being judged by this being. We have as much in common with this being as we do with an amoeba. Less really. Would you judge a bacteriums actions? Would you punish it if it didn't "turn" the right way for you? I mean come on, anyone with that intelligence and power does NOT need to get his rocks off playing with his "earth" science/social project. You're being led down the primrose path here people.
And before you react, the major "God" religions ALL make God out to be an "entity", remember "in his image". So, if you're religious you believe in a "person" running things. A person that was just "poofed" into existince and then poofed us into existince.
Now, maybe you're all right. Maybe we are "God made" by some REALLY smart people. Then I STILL don't believe they expect us to be praying and worshiping them. Again, we are SO below them that they couldn't care what we're doing. In fact they should have no way to know what we're doing. I mean they may be able to watch us scurry about but can they read EVERYONE'S mind? That IS some trick.
The whole thing is just absurd to me. I'll never believe and I guess I'll never convince someone who does to REALLY question what they believe. You see, I come from a very religious family, went to church and figured out myself that it was just a scam. I watch TLC, Discovery, History Channel shows and read about religion too. I want to know why 95% of the population believes. Organized religion is about power, plain and simple. People need religion to answer the unknown and to know that "this isn't all there is". Remember, when these religions were formed people had a HARD life. Working as a slave or serf, hungry, dying of diseases, nothing but work work work. They NEEDED to know that it would be better is they were "good" little peasants.
Cal,
I have to disagree with the believe or not believe. Do you find it easier to "trust" or "not trust"? I guess they relate. If someone tells you something do you automatically believe them? Or, do you check it out? I do the latter. To me to have faith, believe, trust, does not come easy. I need to be proved that I can indeed trust, believe, and have faith in whatever/whomever wants it. That is what I meant.
I'll let someone else talk now...
If God created everything and is omniscient then doesn't he already know how I am going to turn out and whether I would be a "believer or not"? Shoot, he created me, a non-believer. Why would he create a non-believer? Hmmmm.....
And why would God have given me a brain if he didn't expect me to question his existence?
Quote from: DomIf God created everything and is omniscient then doesn't he already know how I am going to turn out and whether I would be a "believer or not"? Shoot, he created me, a non-believer. Why would he create a non-believer? Hmmmm.....
And why would God have given me a brain if he didn't expect me to question his existence?
It's called free will baby :thumb: It's a beautiful thing.
I was discussing religion with an athiest. I worried it would become an ugly conversation, but it didn't.
She said she didn't think we had a soul, I said that we all have energy running throughout our bodies (we really run on electricity). I said that Einstein proved energy can't be destroyed, therefore if we die, the energy dissapates into the cosmos, and becomes part of the universe. It continues. So we really don't die, our soul/life force/whatever continues on somehow. Certainly she can believe that nothing comes of it, but she did agree that it was an interesting thought, and I swear she was comforted by it.
I understand not believing. And I don't think it's an easy choice. It's no easier and no harder. To believe in nothing is still believing in something :mrgreen: If you're secure with the belief, then I'm OK with that. I don't agree, but I'm not going to knock it.
Religion is such a sticky subject. Consider how many ideas there are, all competing and claiming to be correct. That's pretty wild. I'm amazed this thread hasn't regressed into a poop fest and been banished to the tard farm. I'm really impressed with some of the viewpoints presented here, and most are very compelling and interesting.
Quote from: johnI'm amazed this thread hasn't regressed into a poop fest and been banished to the tard farm. I'm really impressed with some of the viewpoints presented here, and most are very compelling and interesting.
Another reason why I'm so glad this community exists!! :thumb:
Not only are the members extremely helpful when it comes to motorcycle questions (not just GS500), but they are a mature enough group to discuss such a topic without turning it into a flame war. :guns:
On many of the other forums I fequent on a daily basis, this thread would have turned ugly somewhere around the 3rd post. :(
It definitely shows that we respect everyone and their opionions.
Thanks Guys!! :)
So I guess my next question would be: Do we actually have free will? I've heard people talk about "God's plan", but did or does he actually have one? Are we just acting out a script that was conceived before the epoch of time?
Hehe, now i remember why i love this forum. We can have an in-depth, intelligent conversation about a very touchy subject to many people. If this thread were on ANY other forum, it would have turned into a heated bloodbath by now. I am proud to be part of this group of intelligent and compassionate individuals ;)
:icon_confused:
If everyone were to ride a Baby G or an HD would it be a much more co-habitable world? I love the GS500, this forum and all of you. :kiss:
C.......
JoeRocker, Interesting point about trust. I could relate exactly to your question. In just about everything in my everyday life if someone tells me something or makes a statement that seems feizable I tend to give them the benefit and believe them. I do, however, tend to check out what I can and if I find they have spoken with forked tounge I never believe a thing they say again. (Until checked)
That's fine for everyday life but for matters spiritual, how do you check?
As for John and Einstein's electricity, an afterlife is the hook if you like for most religious belief, we are all attratcted to the idea of going on eternally and cetainly the atoms that make us up will physically, the life force, spirituality, electricity is again where the faith and believe come along.
I was at a funeral yesterday of a grand old lady who I had known since 1961 when I was 15. She wrote her own funeral oration which was delivered by her son and she spoke about being re-united with her beloved husband Joe who died about four years back. "Tonight Joe and I will have dinner, two fillet steaks and a couple of bottles of decent Claret, Joe will probably have fish and a beer" Oh I hope so that's my kind of afterlife! Hope is one thing belief is another.
dom, what you said,is a valid question/point. however, according to the christian bible, god did not create a non-believer, john 3;16 is my reference to that. the bible is just that no more, and no less, no book of mormon no extra books of this or that,, i do apologise if ive offended and mormons, or jw's, sure you may find "holes in the book"or story, but if you read it thoroughly, it all comes together, jesus christ was known as king of the jews, (someone made reference to the torah, ill have to read that to see their point of view)you chose to not believe, that is your point, ok. satan, was known as Lucifer, when he was with god, cant remember what he did to anger him so, but ill have to read to find out. all in all this iom surprised has kept itself out of the tard farm for quite a while now, and been quite active congrats all, maybe the wave of the future? (active to-the-point discussion, congrats all :cheers:
Cal,
Exactly... if it sounds feasable give it the benefit of the doubt but a "god" is not feasable to me. Something coming out of nothing and making us doesn't sound plausable to me. So, I take it as false unless I find evidence to the contrary. And one book (the Bible) as the ONLY source of information (to Christians) which has been rewritten many times over thousands of years isn't good enough. Especially since there are other thousand year old (some older) books (in different religions) with a different story. You know there are other OLD religions with a completely different account of things. Think about it, 5 people tell you "their" version of something that happened, they can't ALL be correct... right?
People wanting an afterlife is the REAL reason they believe. People in general just can't handle the thought of nothing after death. They hope for utopia, reunion with loves and friends, perfection forever. Problem is the life you have to live to get to heaven. Seems like sin is the most fun. What? No free love (sex)? No booze? No smoke in heaven? Hopefully I can have a bike there... What!? A helmet law!!! Please, say it isn't so...
Who says your "life energy" is a form of "real energy" that must be conserved? To me life is a bunch of chemical reactions that all work together. There is no "life force" found only in living things.
Why are people so arrogant and put themselves SO high above other creatures? Why do you think only you have a "soul"? Animals have MANY of the same characteristice we have. The ONLY thing they can't do is write! Chimps, our closest relative, live in organized communities, communicate, use tools, have families, play, mourn, everything but write. I'll tell you why we say they don't have a soul... Because we EAT them! You'd feel real bad about that steak if you thought you'd meet the donor in heaven!
Joe, you are leaning on an open door, I think we just agreed.
Isn't it nice that we can have a religious discussion that includes a peeing monkey and dozens of flipping middle fingers and shooting guns! :lol: :lol:
I don't really have a lot new to add, and most of these topics have been debated for thousands of years in different cultures with no resolution.
People have faith in lots of things despite lack of evidence or evidence to the contrary. In surveys, roughly 25% of people express belief in things like astrology, ghosts, Santa Claus, ESP. If there was strong evidence for something it would not require faith.
As a scientist I generally practice Hume's suggestion that " A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence". But I would be naive not to acknowledge that in many human affairs (of the heart and mind) we are often motivated by forces other than rationality.
Santa Clause ! hey what, are you trying to tell me something, God(s) may be debatable but I've SEEN santa!
Quote from: Cal PriceSanta Clause ! hey what, are you trying to tell me something, God(s) may be debatable but I've SEEN santa!
There are about 50 million people in the US under the age of 12. If we assume half of them believe in Saint Nick, that is a sizable population!
The Santa sect has more adherents than Methodism, LDS, Pentecostals, Judaism, etc (although there may be some overlap in memberships)
Yes indeed. In Terry pratchett's discworld book "Small Gods" he expounded a theory that a God's power and influence was proportionate to the number of believers at any given time. That's pretty much what you just said about Santa. I love celebrating other people's festivals.
A long dispute means both parties are wrong.
:lol:
Amen to the comments on the maturity of this discussion. :thumb:
For the record, you can't actually be an atheist, because in order to be an atheist you have to KNOW there is no god. In order to know that you'd have to know everything about everything. Saying you don't believe there is a god is not the same thing.
Why do a lot of people believe organised religion is just about power? Well, let's face it, rightly or wrongly religion has a lot of influence in the lives of most people, even if they are non-believers. If there is a hierarchy to that influence, such as church organisation, there is the possibility that people will occupy positions in that hierarchy who will use that influence (call it power if you like) for ends that do not serve either the organisation or the other members. Call that abuse of power if you like. Just because something is open to abuse does not make it wrong or a bad idea. If it did the NRA would be all washed up, and we'd never have a social security system. And while many people talk about more liberty, less government control, etc, I don't see anyone in their right mind seriously arguing for a total lack of controls- ie anarchy.
As for God (and yes, I am referring to the concept of a single entity deity here) just wanting to see us all jump, my Bible is really quite clear on this. It says that God sees us as His children. He has given us instructions for how our lives will run best (just as a bike manufacturer gives the new owner a manual of instructions) and then offers to help us do what he has asked. He does not force us, though, and if we choose to go our own way he warns us what will happen and says come back when you're sick of it. Those of you with kids know that often you tell them something for their own safety and they completely disregard your advice and get hurt. Is that your fault? You told them what would keep them safe, told them what would happen if they disregarded your advice. Short of taking away their freedom, what more could you do? You in the USA make a great deal of noise about individual freedom, and rightly so. You would complain bitterly if someone attempted to limit your freedom without a very good reason,( and even then sometimes). But you will willingly submit to the dictates of someone who you believe knows better than you about a given situation and who has your interests at heart. This is the position of the christian.
Michael,
Do you take his word (the Bible) literally? I mean you just said he provided instructions. If so, there are some pretty strict things in there. I'd say only about 1% take the Bible literally and follow it to the letter. Most are religious relativists, they pick and choose what they will and won't follow. And even if you did follow it literally, it is NOT the same book as was originally written. It was completely rewritten by the King James people. So, are you following the correct instructions? Or are doing what someone else (a mortal man) decided you should do?
So, if your child doesn't listen to EVERYTHING you've laid down for them, at 18 or 21 you banish them? I'm equating moving out of the house with death. Not very loving if you ask me! Do you expect your children to literally worship you? To take EVERY word you utter as gospel?
Organized religion isn't about power? Pleeeese... The Bishops and Cardinals ran things in the days of old. They still wield quite a bit of power. Look at the opulence in cathedrals. The church is where the power was and the money went. Why do you think many of the colonists left. To get away from the Church of England. Look at the Spanish church at the time of Columbus with its inquisition. All approved by the crown. The clergy were the only ones who owned books (OK the very rich did too) and could read. People need to look back at history and see just what "their" church was/did do in the past.
The more you DO know, the less you have reason to believe. Especially where organized religion is concerned. Even if there IS a God, I truly doubt that he DEMANDS all the actions that the church says he does. I mean it's so childish to demand things of beings so far below you.
Trust me here... There are a LOT of people who say God this and God that who don't really believe it. But, in a world where 90+% say they do believe, you MUST say in public speech that you do too.
:icon_confused:
Quote from: Ed_in_AzLooks like this thread keeps chugging along, must be perpetual motion. Nobody's thrown a log in the wheels yet. :lol:
And, Joe, I'm assuming you haven't heard, in comparisons with the ancient dead sea scrolls, the kind james Bible is right on the money, so please give up the "lost in translation" argument.
As for your ongoing example of "organized religion", what you are truly referring to is Catholicism (and its own offshoots). That is a Christian denomination with many add-on requirements and rituals not found in the Bible or most protestant denominations.
I have to take issue with a couple of your comments.
The idea that the Dead Sea Scrolls were a great confirmation of the KJV of the Bible is simplistic at best and somewhat dishonest. The DSS are usually attributed to the community of Jews known as Essenes. The texts are a mixture of writings from the Old Testament and documents related to the procedures of the Essene faith and community rules. The idea that the DSS are just an old Bible that could be compared to the new version is flat wrong. Some of the material remains unidentified today. The New Testament writings which are the basis of Christianity are neither confirmed or denied by the DSS.
As for the second comment on Catholicism, it is important to understand that Protestantism in all its forms is much younger than Catholicism (both Eastern and Western forms) and is based on its perceived failures. Early Christians were members of a cult, plain and simple. They were charismatic followers of a person with very radical teachings whose existence threatened the social order of both the Romans and the Jews. If you want to practice "original" christianity you would probably be better off with Gnosticism, Mandeism, or Coptic Practices. There is no question that St. Peter would be shocked at modern Catholic practices but surely Jesus would not recognize most of those folks that claim to be his followers today?
Thus saith me ...
;)
Thanks callmelenny, you beat me to it. A lot, of not MOST of the dead sea scrolls are destroyed or unreadable. The best books are about 75% complete with many containing only a word or two. Just goes to show that many believers "know not of what they speak", or more importantly, "what they believe". "Somebody told me this is what I should believe so I do" could sum it up nicely. People lie! As I said, I've probably checked into this religion/God thing more than many of the "believers". I want to know the truth.
Oh, and right on the money, I don't think so. The only people who claim that are people pushing the KJV of the Bible. You see, the Dead Sea Scrolls are NOT the Christian Bible. They are the JEWISH Bible! Granted the OT and the Torah are very similar. The DSS's are written in a dead language (archaic hebrew) with several intrepretations for each "word" compared to english so it is impossible to be an exact match and 5 translators will come up with 5 translations.
The New Testament wasn't even written until 200 years after the DSS's. The DSS's date from 150BC the New Testement was started around 35AD and finished at about 100AD with the earliest know copy dated around 150AD. And sorry to say it but the NT is REALLY what seperates the Christians from the Jews. So, as lenny said, the DSS's have NOTHING to do with Christianity. It ONLY proves that in 150BC someone was writing about creation and all the other OT stuff.
Sorry if my response is "harsh" but don't try to slam me without getting the facts right. I guess this is the beginning of the end for this thread...
:icon_rolleyes:
Quote from: joerocker
Do you take his word (the Bible) literally? I mean you just said he provided instructions. If so, there are some pretty strict things in there. I'd say only about 1% take the Bible literally and follow it to the letter. Most are religious relativists, they pick and choose what they will and won't follow. And even if you did follow it literally, it is NOT the same book as was originally written. It was completely rewritten by the King James people. So, are you following the correct instructions? Or are doing what someone else (a mortal man) decided you should do?
So, if your child doesn't listen to EVERYTHING you've laid down for them, at 18 or 21 you banish them? I'm equating moving out of the house with death. Not very loving if you ask me! Do you expect your children to literally worship you? To take EVERY word you utter as gospel?
Organized religion isn't about power? Pleeeese... The Bishops and Cardinals ran things in the days of old. They still wield quite a bit of power. Look at the opulence in cathedrals. The church is where the power was and the money went. Why do you think many of the colonists left. To get away from the Church of England. Look at the Spanish church at the time of Columbus with its inquisition. All approved by the crown. The clergy were the only ones who owned books (OK the very rich did too) and could read. People need to look back at history and see just what "their" church was/did do in the past.
.
I'm not sure you are hearing what I said on this. Excuse me if I misunderstand you but let me try and clarify.
Yes, I take the Bible literally. It means what it says. You may choose to disagree with what it says but you cannot make it say something other than what it says without doing violence to the language. Eg, when Genesis says God created the world in six literal days (what else could "evening and morning" mean?) that is exactly what he meant to say. If you don't want to believe that, for whatever reason, that's your choice but you can't honestly say he meant something else. Yes, I agree with you, there are a LOT of hard things in the Bible. It paints the history of God's dealings with people warts and all. Both the old and new testaments give many examples of the disasters that overtook people who chose to do other than what they were told. Now many people look at some of these stories and say, How is that loving? What's the point of that?, or some other criticism. They are looking at it from a different perspective. God does not ask us to turn our brains off at the church door, otherwise he would not have said "Come now and let us reason together" (Is. 1:18). And BTW, Isaiah is one of the books best supported as accurate by the DSS.
As to the unkindness of eventually cutting off a persistently rebellious child, this is not an arbitrary decision but a statement of fact. "The soul that sins will die." Because away from God there is no life- He is the originator and sustainer of life. If you choose to separate yourself from oxygen, you'll die. It's there if you want it but if you put the bag over your own head, who's fault is it when you die? God says, Turn to me, for why will you die? It's a choice. Going to the analogy of the bike and its instruction manual, if you choose not to change the oil ever, your bike will run for quite a while without doing that simple maintenance step. But eventually it will die. Is that the manufacturer's fault? He told you what to do to keep it going, you chose to ignore him, and you suffer the consequences. The manufacturer doesn't just arbitrarily say, alright I'm going to watch you and if you don't change your oil I'm going to destroy your motor.
As for the abuse of power by bishops, cardinals, etc, I thought I explained that in the original post. Just because someone abuses a position doesn't mean the position should be done away with. Even "atheists" (happy, Dom?) know that "Power corrupts". Human nature, left to its own devices is selfish and abusive. That, BTW is the point behind "Lord of the Flies". It's also brought out over and over in the stories in the Bible. The point is not what human nature is- we see evidence of that all around us- but what it can be if humans do what their maker tells them.
Finally, I agree with you- a lot of people who say they believe don't really. I think that's called hypocrisy and most people find it nauseating. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to hold myself up as any paragon of virtue either. I'm not perfect, as those of you who have read some of the previous threads will know well. But I hope you all have also seen that I try to be consistent.
Oh well, sorry things went south after my comments. :dunno:
Everyone is entitiled to their opinions but I'm less willing to budge on the facts.
Thus saith me (that's sarcasm :mrgreen: )
If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this sycamine tree,' Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you. Luke 26:34
All you need to know to live a Christ-like life is in the Beatitudes from the Sermon on the Mount. (Some of 'em are even in the Dead Sea Scrolls)
I'll take responsibility for it. My last comment was rude. I think I set the tone and everyone followed suit. It's tough to break out of it once it's started.
I apologize. I'm not always very diplomatic but will try to keep my cool from now on.
I don't believe God... I believe myself.
I don't say believing God is a bad thing. Some people force me to believe what they believe... Or everytime, s/he brings God... These situations are a bad for me. For ex., if I meet someone, s/he tells me that God leads us to meet each other... Me, No, I decide to meet you, no one leads me to meet you.
Anyway, believe what you believe and be happy always!! :thumb:
I was driving down the road this weekend and noticed all of the churches with crosses thinking how morbid the idea of displaying a cross actually is. It made me wonder, if Jesus had fallen to the hands of an executioner's axe would people be wearing axes on pendants? What if he had had his head lopped off with a guillotine or had been hung by a noose. Just a wierd idea to me that people display an execution device, that's all.
well the cross didnt directly kill him... :dunno:
You're right. So it would be more like an electric chair or a noose in comparison. It would be the chair that he would have sat in or the noose that he hung from...
Quote from: DomYou're right. So it would be more like an electric chair or a noose in comparison. It would be the chair that he would have sat in or the noose that he hung from...
Yes, I've never seen the point myself. I think it's that some people need symbols to help them remember. That in itself is not a bad thing. There have been times I've been glad (in hindsight) that I was wearing my wedding ring. :lol:
But when the symbol becomes important in itself, it's time to rethink its place in your philosophy.
At the risk of starting another thread, and perhaps a flame-out, the same thing applies to a nation's flag. It is not something holy in itself, it just serves as a reminder and rallying point for the faithful. Not to say it's not valuable and worth respecting. Just don't get too precious about it.
Resurrecting this thread- Jesus style...
Probably not the best idea... ;)
As far as religion/god/etc: Whatever floats your boat, so long as it doesn't float my way. :cheers:
WTF is with this night of the living dead threads??????!!?!!?!?!?!?
We like to bring you up to speed on the history of this site and some of its members. Plus, this helps prevent others from bringing up the same subject in a new thread.
can I bump the next old thread?
As for the subject of this one...I believe in God because I've yet to encounter opposing proof.
someone wake me up when this bull shaZam! is over :cookoo: :cookoo: :cookoo: :cookoo: :cookoo: :cookoo: :cookoo: :cookoo: :cookoo:
You'll be at 1000 posts soon Frankie , with these helpful Posts... Im sure there helpful
I dont believe in god , i dont believe that someone is there , people who are afraid of death , make themselfs feel better , thats my taking on it...
Quote from: Jay_wolf on July 10, 2007, 06:41:33 PM
I dont believe in god , i dont believe that someone is there , people who are afraid of death , make themselfs feel better , thats my taking on it...
*Like Geep , i tend to stay away from these discussions , but ... my personal opinion is that Jay has hit it on the button .
Back in the day religion was a way to explain things people didn't yet know ( Greeks heard thunder , saw lightning ... made a god responsible for it) . Religion was also a way to instill particular "morals" upon people ... "Hey , don't kill that dude , that's not nice" doesn't work quite as well as "Hey , if you kill that dude you're gonna go to Hell" .
Bah....read the first two pages then my brain tried to eat itself.
To me, the discussion...or rather, the arguments that rage on about religion are much like the ones that rage on about politics, and how to raise your children, and whether or not eggs are good for you...EVERYONE has their own views and opinions for which they will fight to the death.
I, personally, don't believe in "God"; be it a western one or an eastern one. I'm not atheist though. I take a pretty agnostic view of it. I'm certain that there has to be some sort of being or beings out in the vastness of the universe who are waaaaaaaay more intelligent than we are (at least I really really hope so :laugh:). However, I don't believe that these beings are omnipotent or omnipresent. Basically I take the view of someone who's too lazy to do adopt either viewpoint on the basis that I don't want to read rofl.
I'm anti-organized religion, but very much so pro-spirituality. Vtlion made a good point with which I agree to an extent. Religion is believing in 'someone elses' god, and communicating to him through a pope or priest or whatever, and spirituality is developing your own connection to whomever you believe in. To me, religion seems to stifle people thinking for themselves (I mean, come on...believers are even called "the flock" :icon_rolleyes:); spirituality, however, is thinking entirely for yourself.
I guess I'm really bitter because I hate being told that such and such is going to happen because I don't believe in god; or whatever.
I agree with George Carlin. They should add a commandment that says "thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself".
Hope I didn't step on anyone's toes...but I guess that's actually pretty hard to avoid with topics such as these.
the way i look at it is this. yes i DO believe in god, also i am abeliever in evolution. ( wierd Eh?), :thumb:
I don't! There I said it! Now leave me alone about it! :flipoff: :mad:
i live for the moment and believe there is a path that what ever i do is or was chosen for me my a higher being and that higher being would be god. there for hwat ever happens i am happy with and what i have done is in now way going to affect the out come in the end as it has already been chosen
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on July 10, 2007, 09:10:52 PM
the way i look at it is this. yes i DO believe in god, also i am abeliever in evolution. ( wierd Eh?), :thumb:
WIIITCHCRAAAFTTT!!!! :icon_twisted:
Yeah, should know enough to just stay away.
I don't believe in "belief".
The way the word is most often used, it means "there is not enough evidence to prove this, or to demonstrate it, but I'm going to DEFEND it against all other thought or contrary evidence anyway".
Not a rational position. If you have a working hypothesis, and you encounter evidence that contradicts it, you revise the hypothesis, you don't defend it. If you do, your world-view comes closer to approximating reality. If you don't, you are deliberately diverging your world-view from reality.
Not my place to deny or refute anyone elses best guess... but when they use the word that way, they're signaling that it isn't really a "best guess" anymore, they've chosen to defend it against contrary evidence, and thus treat the evidence itself (reality) as the enemy of their "belief". In other words, they've consciously chosen to take, and defend, an irrational position. That's why any discussion is worse than useless. Doesn't matter at all what the belief actually IS, because belief itself is the fallacy.
There is no bigger lie than "you have to believe in something".
No, you don't HAVE to "believe" in ANYTHING. Just as you don't HAVE to have an opinion on EVERYTHING, current culture to the contrary. Why do you feel obligated to have an opinion on every subject, even if you've given it no thought or study at all?
Free your mind from the culture traps, see where the evidence itself takes you.
Yeah... What he said ^^^
I used to classify myself as an philosophical agnostic, simply because I do not care if there is a "god." If there is, good for you... If there isn't, good for you too... It doesn't keep me up at night or wake me up in the morning. If there is a question I can not answer, I ask myself if I need to know the answer. Where did all life come from? I dunno... Does it matter? I know where I came from; my mom and dad... Where did the universe come from? I dunno... Does it matter? Science will try to answer these unanswerable questions and will never succeed. Religion answers all unanswerable questions with the same answer: "god"
Since most people misunderstand what "philosophical agnostic" actually means (also known as Model Agnosticism)... I could explain that "philosophical and metaphysical questions are not ultimately verifiable but that a model of malleable assumption should be built upon rational thought." But, again... People wouldn't get it. When I would talk to Atheists, most would INSIST that there is no god... And I would argue that it takes as much faith to believe there is no god as it takes to believe there is a god... But, since I have no faith in either direction and honestly don't give a crap, where does that leave me?
I started saying that I'm an Atheist, but it's not entirely accurate either... Well, depending on how you define Atheism. Here's an article about it: Atheism vs. Agnosticism (http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/atheism.htm) (There are lots of links to other articles about Atheism and Agnosticism as well). I am a lot closer to the way that article defines Atheism... As an absence of belief.
I could say that I'm a Secular Humanist... But, it's also misunderstood and not quite right... Nontheistic non-religious humanist? Hmm... Sorta... But, too long of a "title."
The real question is: Does it matter? Does someone else's religion of belief in god make them a better or worse person?
Well, according to a Poll taken in 2005, the large majority of Americans would NOT vote for an Atheist Politician... Atheists rated the LOWEST of all the groups listed (Catholics, Jews, Evangelical Christians, Muslim Americans) Also from a 2006 poll:
QuoteFrom a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate Atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in "sharing their vision of American society." Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.
Rated the LOWEST...
I guess that answers the question... Being an Atheist DOES make you a worse person... Well, to everyone that dislikes me because of my religious views (or lack there of), please refer to this quote:
Quote from: George Washington"If they be good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa, or Europe; they may be Mohammedans, Jews, or Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists."
Why do I believe in god?
Because the assumption that we are the sole intellect in this universe is so arrogant that even I could not go there. :thumb:
I believe in God because He has revealed Himself in the creation of the universe.
Talk to a mathematical statistician, the odds of all of this happening by accident are so great that it takes a lot of "faith" to believe in the evolution theory of how things came about.
I'm sure I'm in the minority here and that's OK.
You guys be safe out there.
Quote from: bettingpythonBecause the assumption that we are the sole intellect in this universe is so arrogant that even I could not go there. :thumb:
Isn't that the assumption that most christians make? That humans on Earth are the only intelligent life?
No aliens?
No life on planets outside of our solar system?
:dunno_white:
Quote from: RVertigo on July 12, 2007, 02:32:53 PM
Isn't that the assumption that most christians make? That humans on Earth are the only intelligent life?
No aliens?
No life on planets outside of our solar system?
:dunno_white:
Not only Christians, I'm sure. But yes, I believe that is a kind of egocentric assumption that we are the only intelligent life in all of existence.
Quote from: makenzie71 on July 10, 2007, 06:12:13 PM
can I bump the next old thread?
As for the subject of this one...I believe in God because I've yet to encounter opposing proof.
Which is why I believe that there is a ring of invisible pink unicorns circling the the Earth.
The resurrection of this post is proof there is life after death,but I still don't believe in any gods. :dunno_white:
Quote from: Egaeus on July 12, 2007, 09:03:47 PM
Quote from: makenzie71 on July 10, 2007, 06:12:13 PM
can I bump the next old thread?
As for the subject of this one...I believe in God because I've yet to encounter opposing proof.
Which is why I believe that there is a ring of invisible pink unicorns circling the the Earth.
Don't forget about the hyper-intelligent shades of blue that exist out there :laugh:
Laugh if you want.
I got stuck on a long airplane ride next to a guy who explained to me, in all solemn seriousness, that the Earth is hollow, that there are holes at the north and south poles, that there is another sun on the inside shining on the inside surface, that there are people and civilizations in there, that the holes are where the UFOs come and go from, and that's where the Nazis went after WWII, and it's all being covered up by a conspiracy of governments.
However, man walking on the moon was "nonsense", it never happened, it was all faked by the government because it's "impossible".
He is not alone. He had literature.
Sorry wrecent, soiunds as though you were stuck next to my mothers husband.
If you were flying into or out of McCarren in Vegas there is a real chance it may have been him.
She is actuaiily loonier than him.
Quote from: PuddleJumper on July 12, 2007, 02:08:54 PM
Talk to a mathematical statistician, the odds of all of this happening by accident are so great that it takes a lot of "faith" to believe in the evolution theory of how things came about.
Before my comment on this , i have to say to Wrecent ... LOL :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
As to the quoted statement ... I disagree . A statastician would also tell you the whole "infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typerwriters , one will eventually write ..." (any number of books , the Bible being the one most often used in the quote , but i'm not TRYING to be inflammatory) . Think of how many planets exist in our solar system , then in our galaxy , then in the whole universe . Something had to happen somewhere . I'm sure we aren't alone in the universe , but until someone/thing figures out how to keep our molecules from coming apart by going faster than light , or if there's actually "wormholes" , we'll probably never meet them . And even if we were to meet them , who says we would even recognise them as an actual "lifeform" ? Or that they would even live in the same timeframe as us ... we may see them as statues or inanimate objects because they live to be a million of our years old and what to them seems seconds long could be hundreds of our years . They may exist in another wavelength and live and die without ever being able to be seen by us .
There's a lot of scenarios , but to think that we are alone in the universe is not realistic . So what if the odds are 1 in 1 billion even ... if there's a couple billion planets out there , the odds are that there are at least 2 other sentient civilizations :dunno_white:
ok ... this could go on forever lol . I'm done
Sorry, I answered this yesterday, but was getting an error every time I tried to "post" for some reason.
Don't know... it was on a leg between one of the DC airports (probably Dulles) and DFW, Dallas- Fort Worth. That's a hub, of course, and I have no idea where he was going from there. Didn't ask. In fact, I really didn't get a chance to ask much... or speak much...
Confusing organized religion and Belief in a Creator are common. The are not the same.
God to me is someone all knowing, all powerful, and humbling.
Organized religion to me is a way to give some classes of folks something to believe in. It works fairly well at imposing some standards of conduct, and social networking. It also wastes ALOT of energy and money. Does anyone need a $2 million dollar building to worship ? I don't.
I originally believed in God because I was raised that way.
I now believe in God because I've seen some of what I like to think he created. California's coastline, the Redwoods, Caverns underground, The Smokies, the crystal clear waters of Florida, Niagra Falls, and keeping it all from flying apart.
I can't look at my son without believing there is a caring God that blessed me and my wife.
If someone believes differently, I'm not out to convert them. That's for the organized religions to fight out.
I just wanna ride on this blue green blob and not get rashed up.
:thumb:
Wow. A discussion on religion that doesn't end in people telling other people they're going to hell or that they're stupid for believing. That's a very welcome change. I haven't read this entire thread but the scant bit of scanning I've done has been pretty impressive and I wanted to give everyone a big :thumb: for being civil. Also, it's great to see some clarification on the terms that often trip us up in any debate (esp. regarding divinity).
For the record, I believe in God (I'm a Christian) because of personal experience and it seems logical for me to believe. I don't mean "personal" in the subjective sense of "well it works for me but whatever works for you" but in the sense that I have a finite view of reality. I believe there is a such think as objective reality but we're not really capable of seeing the whole picture (yet) so we can only infer and deduce and make the most rational choice in any given matter.
In a round-about way I'm saying that there's no one reason I believe but I can't list every experience or thought that brought me to my belief. Also, just thanks for being civil human beings.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: God is a big magical retarded hamster :cookoo: And I will defend that position :flipoff:
Quote from: spcterry on July 15, 2007, 01:12:58 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: God is a big magical retarded hamster :cookoo: And I will defend that position :flipoff:
+1 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: spcterry on July 15, 2007, 01:12:58 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: God is a big magical retarded hamster :cookoo: And I will defend that position :flipoff:
Well, nobody can prove otherwise.
Yeah, well, it's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake....
Quote from: Egaeus on July 15, 2007, 09:14:33 AM
Quote from: spcterry on July 15, 2007, 01:12:58 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: God is a big magical retarded hamster :cookoo: And I will defend that position :flipoff:
Well, nobody can prove otherwise.
Exactly!!!!! My theory is just as plausible as christianity, or judaism, or islam :thumb:
okay ;)
The Bible was written for why we should believe and how to live. This forum topic would only be a milimeter compared to a mile. You searching and asking questions proves there is a God, as God is dealing with you to come find him. If there is a God, and you truly search for him, why would he not show himself? What does God have to loose? He has already given you FREEWILL. You are free to believe what you want or not at all. As the Bible says, Cry out to God and He Will answer your prayers; Seek and you shall find.
John 14:1-6 Romans 10:13 Job 29:25 Exodus 2:23 John 20:24-31 John 3:16 Matthew 7:7-8
I believe in God because he is my creator, savior, healer, and friend. He created me to love and be loved by God and my brothers and sisters ( you ).
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 15, 2007, 10:27:32 PM
The Bible was written for why we should believe and how to live. This forum topic would only be a milimeter compared to a mile. You searching and asking questions proves there is a God, as God is dealing with you to come find him. If there is a God, and you truly search for him, why would he not show himself? What does God have to loose? He has already given you FREEWILL. You are free to believe what you want or not at all. As the Bible says, Cry out to God and He Will answer your prayers; Seek and you shall find.
John 14:1-6 Romans 10:13 Job 29:25 Exodus 2:23 John 20:24-31 John 3:16 Matthew 7:7-8
I believe in God because he is my creator, savior, healer, and friend. He created me to love and be loved by God and my brothers and sisters ( you ).
Your beliefs are just that, but I think you need some work on understanding the definition of "proof."
As a counterexample, someone asking why I believe in invisible pink unicorns doesn't prove they exist.
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 15, 2007, 10:27:32 PM
The Bible was written for why we should believe and how to live. This forum topic would only be a milimeter compared to a mile. You searching and asking questions proves there is a God, as God is dealing with you to come find him. If there is a God, and you truly search for him, why would he not show himself? What does God have to loose? He has already given you FREEWILL. You are free to believe what you want or not at all. As the Bible says, Cry out to God and He Will answer your prayers; Seek and you shall find.
John 14:1-6 Romans 10:13 Job 29:25 Exodus 2:23 John 20:24-31 John 3:16 Matthew 7:7-8
I believe in God because he is my creator, savior, healer, and friend. He created me to love and be loved by God and my brothers and sisters ( you ).
Thank you for reinforcing my 'retarded magical hamster' theory. Only a retarded magical hamster could create a being with such disturbed views as those who believe that their religion is the only answer.
I understand your point. I have never prayed to an invisible pink unicorn and never will. However some people do pray to cows. You are welcome to physically come around me when I pray to God. I can show you what I believe is God answering my prayers. However at the end of the day, You still have a freewill and mind to decide for yourself if it is true or not. Reasons and excuses can always be found. The Bible says if you ask for God to save you, he will enter your heart. If God lives inside you, you will know it. I went through the same exact questions when I was deciding if God existed.
1. Kill yourself. Seeing as your faith is so strong you should go to heaven right?? And we won't have to deal with you then.
2. Watch a good man's head explode in front of you and tell me that a fair and just god as depicted by the majority of christianity exists.
I'm sorry if I offended you. I am truly not trying to push my religion onto you. I am just saying what I believe if anyone wanted to know. I didn't mean for you to have to deal with people like me (christians). I'm ok with what ever you want to believe. I have watched a good man explode in front of me in Iraq in a car bomb. He left behind a wife and two kids. I don't know why stuff like that happens.
OK serious time: I consider myself very loosely affiliated with the catholic faith. If it weren't for the fact that it requires regular attendance I would convert to judaism. I'm trying to make the point that as far as religion goes nothing can be proven or disproven. I just find it hard to believe in the catholic just and fair god when I see a mans head explode and wipe gray shaZam! off my chest only to learn later that his wife just found out she was pregnant.
yeah its tough. a lot of military people i know either believe in god or dispise him. i go to a southern baptist church. i can't find any proof to show you other than what's in my heart. some christians are over the top and hard to deal with. i don't see any just or fairness in a family loosing a loved one. my thoughts go out to that family.
I don't know if this will make sense or not. But here goes...
6 years ago my son was born. He was 9 weeks early because of a prolapsed umbilical cord. I later found out that if this happens in a Hospital there is a 5 minute window to get the babies out. Even then, of 5 babies, 2 die, 2 have serious brain damage and 1 might come out of it OK.
For my son, the time frame was 1 hour and 22 min from the time I called 911 and the time the Docs got him out and on a vent.
13 days later, the Doctors told me to take my boy home. There was nothing wrong with him.
This is an example of the good things that God lets us experience.
4 years before that, I lost my first child and almost lost my wife.
This is an example of the bad things that God lets us experience.
Sounds conflicting doesn't it?
If we are to be free to choose who and what we believe, then we have to be free to experience the good and the bad.
I can't explain why bad things happen, It just does. The Bible never promises that life will be free of hardship, Just that we will have the strength to face each day as it comes.
Over the last 10 years, I've never forgotten my first child. It happened 3 days before my birthday. I won't say that it's any easier now than it was 10 years ago. But every year when it gets real bad, I always get the strength to go on.
I'm not trying to convince anybody, Just answering the original question.
Spcterry, Anyone that volunteers to serve this country the way you do has my respect. Having a difference of opinion on religion is the best part of America. To many places don't have that option. Instead of talking we would be shooting at each other, Just because we couldn't agree on something like the freedom to choose how we will live our lives.
Stay safe out there.
One thing I have always found ironic is that Islamic/Muslim, Judaism, Christianity all worship the God of Abraham. Everything after that is man made.
Essentially the old testament exists almost word for word in the 3 major religions
indeed, myself as a christian, ( southern baptist as well) am willing to discuss my views with others as well as listen to theirs FIRST. and until tonight, ive never run into anyone who believed in pink unicorns. care to fill us in Eg? tell us what its about? :thumb:
no one can prove 100% one way or the other :thumb: you might say more facts point to A, whilst almost nothing points to b. but without 100% which i doubt youll ever find, all youve got is faith/theories on either side of teh fence O0
Egaeus is kool ;) I really mean that - no joke. The pink unicorn might be a motorcycle god.?
perhaps, that or mebbe keeper of the pr0n or something. tis why i want his expy on it.. i enjoy having a thorough discussion on things like this. rarely ever do i bore :thumb:
Quote from: PuddleJumper on July 15, 2007, 11:42:25 PMThis is an example of the good things that God lets us experience.
[...]
This is an example of the bad things that God lets us experience.
Uh... Not to minimize your experience, but I have a similar story.
Several years ago, I was riding the bus and traffic was very heavy... Just then the battery on my CD Player died. I had to sit on the bus and stare out the window with nothing to do and no music.
This is an example of the boring things that god lets us experience.
:dunno_white:
What's the difference? Life is chance... Sometimes it's seriously f%&ked up... My friend's dad just died at 53... Sometimes life is freakin' amazing... Why does someone have to be causing these events? Why does someone have to be responsible for them happening? I mean:
When you step in dog shaZam!, is that god trying to tell you something or is it just something that happened? When you find a great parking spot, is that god trying to tell you something or were you lucky? Did my upstairs neighbor burn toast and set off the building fire alarm at 8:30 on a Saturday morning because god wanted me to be tired on Saturday or because my neighbor wasn't paying attention?
Where does god's control start and stop? Why is god always responsible for sports teams winning, but never for them loosing? I mean... If god made one team win, couldn't the other team say, "We lost the game 'cause god was on the other team?"
Did god give me food poisoning? 'cause if he did, I'd like to have a word with him about foodborne illnesses.
if there is a god this string will be locked and forgotten about :cookoo:
Frankie:
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l88/ranciddogmilk/churchsignfag.jpg)
Quote from: frankieG on July 16, 2007, 12:32:29 PM
if there is a god this string will be locked and forgotten about :cookoo:
I don't think god is a mod here.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s191/jemidwel/godhatesretards.jpg)
One more for ya frankie:
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/chavez784/fuckingretard.jpg)
A "just" God doesn't allow or disallow death of other human beings. Death happens, and violent death usually happens due to choices. Your buddy's exploding head wasn't caused or not caused by God, it was caused by ordinance, and another human being.
God provided this world, and he gave you and I life to see how we would live it, and if we would follow his law, or succomb to tempations. It's God's promise after death that is his gift. We are all supposed to endure hardships on Earth. Thank Adam and Eve for that.
Honestly, when I read these threads and I listen to religious zealots (islamic extremists, catholics vs. protestants, dubya), all I hear is "blah, blah, blah...I really never read the Bible or payed any real attention to the teachings of Christ".
Those (Christians) that hate based on difference of religion are not living by Christ's word, those that kill in the name of their religion, are not living by Christ's word, those that push violence on any criminal, homosexual, or deviant of any kind are not living by Christ's word.
People that have a little knowledge about their religion are more dangerous than people that know nothing. Yes, I believe in God and Jesus Christ. Because, in my times of greatest trial and hardship, it was prayer that gave me strength and brought me peace. It didn't solve my problems, it gave me the clarity and perserverance to continue until I solved them my self.
Honestly, I don't get angry with people that don't believe or that sin, because I do too. Instead, I pray that they will find God's grace and forgiveness before they die, and that I do too.
This thread, though, is too narrow an area to truly discuss religion...that's a face-to-face topic if ever there was one. But in short...God bless all of you whether you believe or not! :kiss3:
(http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u56/t-boyzermeno/retard.gif)
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j193/superdolfan13/youradb.jpg)
God Bless!
:oops: :oops: That wasn't aimed towards you oramac, sorry. That was still part of my 'Frankie is a dork' tirade :thumb:
shaZam! terry those were funny. seriously though oramac could convert everyone with a pleasant argument like that....well done
indeed frankie indeed :cheers:
God bless photobucket, always there when you need funny/offensive images :thumb:
Invisible Pink Unicorns are a standard device used to illustrate the logical fallacies in many arguments use to justify belief or even "prove" the existence of god.
IPUs are just silly. Nobody believes in them. But there's as much empirical data supporting their existence as there is for the existence of god. That is, zero.
I have no problem with people believing in supernatural beings, be they God, IPUs, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Vishnu, various Monarchs, or Nuggan. I do have a problem with them trying to force their beliefs on others. That, I'm sure everyone can understand.
However, I also have a problem with their lack of reasoning ability when trying to justify their beliefs. They make false statements, and don't realize that they're false (The fact that you're questioning god's existence proves his existence). They don't understand the concept of the burden of proof (I believe in God because he hasn't been proven false).
The burden of proof is always on the person making a claim. That could affect everyone directly. If I'm on trial, how can someone be trusted with my life when they don't understand that the burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove guilt, and not the defense to prove innocence. In fact, the defense technically doesn't have to do crap. The defendant doesn't have to testify. Yet there are people (at least one of whom I served with in jury selection) who think that failure to testify is an admission of guilt. That can get innocent people killed. That's why I attack people's arguments for belief and/or god's existence, but not the beliefs themselves (at least most of the time).
+1 :thumb: :thumb:
'flying spaghettit monster?!?!??????!!! Been watching a little south park have we???
Quote from: spcterry on July 16, 2007, 03:43:53 PM
+1 :thumb: :thumb:
'flying spaghettit monster?!?!??????!!! Been watching a little south park have we???
No, Matt Stone and Trey Parker just read the news.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
And to clarify the "making the claim" part, If I say, "Invisible Pink Unicorns exist" then I are making a claim. If you respond with, "I don't believe you" then you are not making a claim, you're simply refuting the stated claim. The standard scientific position is to disbelieve any statement unless there is adequate proof to back it up. Then, if the facts agree with the statement, then it is accepted as the most correct explanation until new facts force the change of the old position. It's a great system, without which we wouldn't be having this conversation.
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u234/DarthKiljoy/Religion.jpg)
(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u92/countesslynn/religionkt5.jpg)
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p131/IonDeity/shithappensmv4.jpg)
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/derinity2/jesus.gif)
Quote from: Egaeus on July 16, 2007, 03:38:24 PM
Invisible Pink Unicorns are a standard device used to illustrate the logical fallacies in many arguments use to justify belief or even "prove" the existence of god.
IPUs are just silly. Nobody believes in them. But there's as much empirical data supporting their existence as there is for the existence of god. That is, zero.
I have no problem with people believing in supernatural beings, be they God, IPUs, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Vishnu, various Monarchs, or Nuggan. I do have a problem with them trying to force their beliefs on others. That, I'm sure everyone can understand.
However, I also have a problem with their lack of reasoning ability when trying to justify their beliefs. They make false statements, and don't realize that they're false (The fact that you're questioning god's existence proves his existence). They don't understand the concept of the burden of proof (I believe in God because he hasn't been proven false).
The burden of proof is always on the person making a claim. That could affect everyone directly. If I'm on trial, how can someone be trusted with my life when they don't understand that the burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove guilt, and not the defense to prove innocence. In fact, the defense technically doesn't have to do crap. The defendant doesn't have to testify. Yet there are people (at least one of whom I served with in jury selection) who think that failure to testify is an admission of guilt. That can get innocent people killed. That's why I attack people's arguments for belief and/or god's existence, but not the beliefs themselves (at least most of the time).
alright since youre making the point of there being no god. the burden of proof is up to you. correct? alright, ill read your expy tonight after work
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on July 16, 2007, 06:09:58 PM
alright since youre making the point of there being no god. the burden of proof is up to you. correct? alright, ill read your expy tonight after work
Well... not really to be inflammatory, but the burden of proof is upon the person claiming there is a God. If I claim that gravity exists, and someone is skeptical, the burden of proof is on me. Same with God. I do, however, think it is a moot point since God is so many different things to different people, and there really is no one ultimate definition of God.
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on July 16, 2007, 06:09:58 PM
Quote from: Egaeus on July 16, 2007, 03:38:24 PM
Invisible Pink Unicorns are a standard device used to illustrate the logical fallacies in many arguments use to justify belief or even "prove" the existence of god.
IPUs are just silly. Nobody believes in them. But there's as much empirical data supporting their existence as there is for the existence of god. That is, zero.
I have no problem with people believing in supernatural beings, be they God, IPUs, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Vishnu, various Monarchs, or Nuggan. I do have a problem with them trying to force their beliefs on others. That, I'm sure everyone can understand.
However, I also have a problem with their lack of reasoning ability when trying to justify their beliefs. They make false statements, and don't realize that they're false (The fact that you're questioning god's existence proves his existence). They don't understand the concept of the burden of proof (I believe in God because he hasn't been proven false).
The burden of proof is always on the person making a claim. That could affect everyone directly. If I'm on trial, how can someone be trusted with my life when they don't understand that the burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove guilt, and not the defense to prove innocence. In fact, the defense technically doesn't have to do crap. The defendant doesn't have to testify. Yet there are people (at least one of whom I served with in jury selection) who think that failure to testify is an admission of guilt. That can get innocent people killed. That's why I attack people's arguments for belief and/or god's existence, but not the beliefs themselves (at least most of the time).
alright since youre making the point of there being no god. the burden of proof is up to you. correct? alright, ill read your expy tonight after work
You missed my reply to spcterry, where I explained this, anticipating someone not understanding the concept of burden of proof:
Quote from: Egaeus on July 16, 2007, 03:56:01 PM
Quote from: spcterry on July 16, 2007, 03:43:53 PM
+1 :thumb: :thumb:
'flying spaghettit monster?!?!??????!!! Been watching a little south park have we???
No, Matt Stone and Trey Parker just read the news.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
And to clarify the "making the claim" part, If I say, "Invisible Pink Unicorns exist" then I are making a claim. If you respond with, "I don't believe you" then you are not making a claim, you're simply refuting the stated claim. The standard scientific position is to disbelieve any statement unless there is adequate proof to back it up. Then, if the facts agree with the statement, then it is accepted as the most correct explanation until new facts force the change of the old position. It's a great system, without which we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Spoiler alert: do not read if you don't want to hear about christ.
In my opinion, not to be forced upon anyone,
The Bible contains historical facts in the Old Testament. This is considered to be proof. The New Testament records all kinds of miracles performed by Christ to be used as proof. Its up to each individual as to if you believe or not. Remember, Christ was not accepted as being king of the Jews and a savior, which lead to his death. People back then did not believe in Christ but many did believe in god; just that Christ was not the son of god. If people were not convinced then, when Christ walked the earth, how am I supposed to prove that he was? I can't. Religion is based upon faith simply that you believe even though you have not seen. The bible says blessed are those who believe and have not seen.
I believe that Christ is who he said he was, the son of god. In my life, I believe that god has given me enough signs and coincidences to where I am convinced.
If you don't think so, that's fine with me. Everyone comes to their on conclusion.
The same scenario is used to prove Muhammad, Buddha, and many others.
The only reason Christians force their religion on others is because we are commanded in the bible to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.
There is no way to tell someone about Christ and not offend. The bible says we Christians will be persecuted just because of the name Christ.
Me, personally, I don't care who you worship or who you don't worship. I just believe a certain way; many others believe or not believe a different way.
I don't know why people get so offended when I speak about Christ, but it reinforces my belief because the bible predicts that people will hate me because I use the words Christ and God the Father.
I only try to do to others what I would want done to me. I only write this so that if someone reads it and wants to know more about what I believe, I can tell them. If you don't agree as I know many don't, that's ok too. I really am not trying to force you to believe.
I have met many people that I don't share the same views with. It does not mean I will not be your friend, make fun of you, force my religion on you, call you names or won't go ride motorcycles with you.
As a funny side note, on MTV Jack@ss, they did a skit where someone dressed up in a satan costume and went out on the street campaigning about lies and slander spread about satan, and that satan was really a nice person who just gets a bad rap. I thought it was funny.
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 16, 2007, 09:16:32 PM
The Bible contains historical facts in the Old Testament. This is considered to be proof.
Not facts, per se. This is merely documentation, or one perspective. You know what they say, "History is always written by the winners". Christianity happened to prevail, thus getting to write the history books. I'm sure there has been equally credible documentation citing "true" miracles, magic, witchcraft, demons, etc.
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 16, 2007, 09:16:32 PM
I don't know why people get so offended when I speak about Christ, but it reinforces my belief because the bible predicts that people will hate me because I use the words Christ and God the Father.
I don't get offended by people speaking about Christ as a
belief. I do get offended when people try to prove facts by citing Christ (i.e. Rights & Wrongs of Homosexuality, premarital sex, creationism v. evolution, who's religion is right, etc.) and I get equally offended when Muslims, Jews and so forth do the same. It's not personal man, something classified as a faith just shouldn't be used to try and prove anything empirically truthful.
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 16, 2007, 09:16:32 PM
The same scenario is used to prove Muhammad, Buddha, and many others.
So if this does occur, does that mean anyone is particularly right or wrong? Or does this reinforce the notion that these are beliefs and cannot be used as empirical evidence to prove anything?
My bottom line: It's a belief, keep it that way. Religion is not something used to prove facts, it's a reason for why you live your life like you do. It is not something that should be imposed on anyone- such as being written into laws, or using taxpayer money.
Wow...re-reading this thread from way back was a good time, until I got to the new posts (aside from Casi and one or two selected others).
Please, you new guys...I'm fine with you adding what you want, but at least make it relevant and on par with the prior discussion, rather than simply slamming each other (as the initial post begs of you not to). You don't need to drop down to that level in every thread.
Sorry :oops: :oops: I have a tendency towards douchebagism :oops:
Really? I never noticed.
:laugh:
Quote from: Egaeus on July 16, 2007, 07:24:04 PM
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on July 16, 2007, 06:09:58 PM
Quote from: Egaeus on July 16, 2007, 03:38:24 PM
Invisible Pink Unicorns are a standard device used to illustrate the logical fallacies in many arguments use to justify belief or even "prove" the existence of god.
IPUs are just silly. Nobody believes in them. But there's as much empirical data supporting their existence as there is for the existence of god. That is, zero.
I have no problem with people believing in supernatural beings, be they God, IPUs, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Vishnu, various Monarchs, or Nuggan. I do have a problem with them trying to force their beliefs on others. That, I'm sure everyone can understand.
However, I also have a problem with their lack of reasoning ability when trying to justify their beliefs. They make false statements, and don't realize that they're false (The fact that you're questioning god's existence proves his existence). They don't understand the concept of the burden of proof (I believe in God because he hasn't been proven false).
The burden of proof is always on the person making a claim. That could affect everyone directly. If I'm on trial, how can someone be trusted with my life when they don't understand that the burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove guilt, and not the defense to prove innocence. In fact, the defense technically doesn't have to do crap. The defendant doesn't have to testify. Yet there are people (at least one of whom I served with in jury selection) who think that failure to testify is an admission of guilt. That can get innocent people killed. That's why I attack people's arguments for belief and/or god's existence, but not the beliefs themselves (at least most of the time).
alright since youre making the point of there being no god. the burden of proof is up to you. correct? alright, ill read your expy tonight after work
You missed my reply to spcterry, where I explained this, anticipating someone not understanding the concept of burden of proof:
Quote from: Egaeus on July 16, 2007, 03:56:01 PM
Quote from: spcterry on July 16, 2007, 03:43:53 PM
+1 :thumb: :thumb:
'flying spaghettit monster?!?!??????!!! Been watching a little south park have we???
No, Matt Stone and Trey Parker just read the news.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
And to clarify the "making the claim" part, If I say, "Invisible Pink Unicorns exist" then I are making a claim. If you respond with, "I don't believe you" then you are not making a claim, you're simply refuting the stated claim. The standard scientific position is to disbelieve any statement unless there is adequate proof to back it up. Then, if the facts agree with the statement, then it is accepted as the most correct explanation until new facts force the change of the old position. It's a great system, without which we wouldn't be having this conversation.
fair enough Eg. you didnt specifically say god does not exist. in this thread, so illback out of the burden of proof request.
"Bob" can Always Kick the Spagetti Monsters Ass. :thumb:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._%22Bob%22_Dobbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._%22Bob%22_Dobbs)
Quote from: CasiUSA on July 16, 2007, 10:04:23 PM
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 16, 2007, 09:16:32 PM
The Bible contains historical facts in the Old Testament. This is considered to be proof.
Not facts, per se. This is merely documentation, or one perspective. You know what they say, "History is always written by the winners". Christianity happened to prevail, thus getting to write the history books. I'm sure there has been equally credible documentation citing "true" miracles, magic, witchcraft, demons, etc.
I agree on that, history is in the eye of the beholder.
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 16, 2007, 09:16:32 PM
I don't know why people get so offended when I speak about Christ, but it reinforces my belief because the bible predicts that people will hate me because I use the words Christ and God the Father.
Quote from: CasiUSA on July 16, 2007, 10:04:23 PM
I don't get offended by people speaking about Christ as a belief. I do get offended when people try to prove facts by citing Christ (i.e. Rights & Wrongs of Homosexuality, premarital sex, creationism v. evolution, who's religion is right, etc.) and I get equally offended when Muslims, Jews and so forth do the same. It's not personal man, something classified as a faith just shouldn't be used to try and prove anything empirically truthful.
You may not get offended but others do after they ask me what I believe!
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 16, 2007, 09:16:32 PM
The same scenario is used to prove Muhammad, Buddha, and many others.
Quote from: CasiUSA on July 16, 2007, 10:04:23 PM
So if this does occur, does that mean anyone is particularly right or wrong? Or does this reinforce the notion that these are beliefs and cannot be used as empirical evidence to prove anything?
Since the 3 previously mention religions all worship the god of abraham, is it possible for all to be in the same heaven? I guess that would be god's call. I've always heard you will be surprised who is in heaven and who won't be.
Quote from: CasiUSA on July 16, 2007, 10:04:23 PM
My bottom line: It's a belief, keep it that way. Religion is not something used to prove facts, it's a reason for why you live your life like you do. It is not something that should be imposed on anyone- such as being written into laws, or using taxpayer money.
Once you decide on what to believe it grows until you incorparate it into everything - just look at the muslim extremist.
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 17, 2007, 09:56:25 AM
Once you decide on what to believe it grows until you incorparate it into everything - just look at the muslim extremist.
Yes! That's my exact point. Look at the Muslim extremist, and where religious fundamentalism has gotten them. That is the danger in religion- people take the "Word of God" literally, and all of a sudden, that is justification enough to kill, hate, destroy, ridicule, etc.
It's not just Muslims, look at the history of any Religion, especially Christianity, and the amounts of destruction that resulted from literal interpretations and claims to God.
Extremists are just that...no religion (of which I am aware), calls for anyone's destruction. Old Testament writings allow "an eye for and eye" and "a tooth for a tooth". However, God says "Vengeance is mine". He will exact vengeance on those that are deserving.
We as men are not to declare our own judgement on any other men. We are to spread the word of God and Jesus Christ and let others choose. As long as I am professing to you now of my beliefs, I am doing as the Bible has instructed you, but I can't force you to believe or to submit to the teachings of Christ, and I am instructed to love you no matter what your choice. If you were forced or coerced into believing in God and Christ, that would defeat the purpose of faith.
It's not supposed to be easy to prove God's existence. He wants you to follow His word and His law because it is right and good, and we should do it out of faith and love. If there were solid proof, people would follow him out of fear, not because of a pure heart. Kind of like when you speed unless you know the police are watching...you only follow the law because you are afraid of the repercussion.
You will find no proof of God except His word in the Bible, and the beliefs in the hearts of His followers.
nowhere have i ever read in the bible that i should kill someone because because they will not believe. The qur'an on the other hand...
In history christianity, did do the same thing though. Its a black eye on my religion. It all goes back to freewill.
Ummmmm...........you are aware that the koran, torah and old testament are almost identical right. The old testament is riddled with cases of direction towards vengeance.........it was only in the new testament that peace was emphasized.
thats why i want to find scholars on the major religions, and talk with them for a while on these things. if anyone knows, they do O0
Terry, I acknowledged the violence in the old testament, and I also said that vengeance was God's alone. Think of Sodom and Gamorah, the great flood, Joshua and the battle of Jericho, the parting of the Red Sea and the consequent drowning of the pursuing soldiers. Those acts of violence were also acts of God. Once again, however, Christians follow the teachings of the New Testament which is a new covenant. The old laws were rewritten by Christ.
In the Jewish faith, the Jews believe they are a chosen people, and they are meant to endure hardships, not war over them.
Islam has similar teachings of peace as brought forth by the prophet mohammed.
The Old Testament, which is similar in all the aforementioned religions, took a more peaceful postion after the Ten Commandments were set forth. Think "Thou shalt not kill." It doesn't get any more clear cut than that.
Unfortunately, the christian faith has a much worse track record in maintaining these standards. Christians/Catholics have killed more people 'in the name of god' in the last 10 centuries than this country has lost soldiers in EVERY military action it has engaged in. I've read reports upwards of 5 million 'infidels' being killed during the crusades :icon_confused: including a large percentage of christians by christians. Sure, the Sunni's and the Shi'ites have their problems, but nothing compared to christianity.................
(http://star.walagata.com/w/jughead/awgeez.jpg)
Quote from: spcterry on July 17, 2007, 07:27:16 PM
Unfortunately, the christian faith has a much worse track record in maintaining these standards. Christians/Catholics have killed more people 'in the name of god' in the last 10 centuries than this country has lost soldiers in EVERY military action it has engaged in. I've read reports upwards of 5 million 'infidels' being killed during the crusades :icon_confused: including a large percentage of christians by christians. Sure, the Sunni's and the Shi'ites have their problems, but nothing compared to christianity.................
question, where did you get your figures from if i may ask, ( wouldnt mind looking at them myself)
From a very heated and drunk, all-encompassing debate with a theology major I used to work with. A bunch of us got him drunk as hell before he left for the peace corps. :icon_rolleyes:
interesting, lol always wanted to do that :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I tried to stay out of the theology shaZam! that night, but when they brought up gun control, it was on!!! :laugh:
went drinking with an instructor of mine from mmi i waited until he was drunk as all hell and this guy would answer questions motorcycle related like it was nothing. anyhoo i asked him after he was well lit, " where on an 883 sportster does the water pump go" :icon_rolleyes: his answer " you know what? some day youll make someone a good pet" :mad: :mad: lol it didnt even faze him
There's a list here: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#European
Trying to estimate based on the estimations of others... The author of the page totals the sources and estimates 1.5 mil. Other sources estimate anywhere from 1 mil to 5 mil.... The trend seems to be that pro-christian sources say 1 mil (and sometimes less) and non-christian-based sources say 2-5 mil.
Yeah, the guy I was talking to was buddhist :laugh:
I never said that Christians had a great track record. But the ideals, if followed as they are taught, are sound. Much like communism. In theory, it's actually a great idea. In practice, however, corruption makes it fail every time.
Quote from: oramac on July 19, 2007, 09:25:30 PM
I never said that Christians had a great track record. But the ideals, if followed as they are taught, are sound. Much like communism. In theory, it's actually a great idea. In practice, however, corruption makes it fail every time.
Islam is the same. The only difference is that persuasive, almost hitler-esque, members of the Islamic community are surfacing at this point in time and encouraging the radical behavior, much as the kings encouraged the christian behavior during the crusades.
damn terry...now you and I appear to be agreeing... :o I may make an intelligent Christian out of you yet... :flipoff: :thumb:
Quote from: spcterry on July 19, 2007, 09:29:59 PM
Quote from: oramac on July 19, 2007, 09:25:30 PM
I never said that Christians had a great track record. But the ideals, if followed as they are taught, are sound. Much like communism. In theory, it's actually a great idea. In practice, however, corruption makes it fail every time.
Islam is the same. The only difference is that persuasive, almost hitler-esque, members of the Islamic community are surfacing at this point in time and encouraging the radical behavior, much as the kings encouraged the christian behavior during the crusades.
damn terry is off of the percocet, his posts are freakin intelligent :flipoff: :laugh:
Mehhhhh....... not under this pope. Hasn't impressed me much :icon_confused: I'll go back to church when he dies :oops: ( I am, by baptism/family tradition Roman Catholic)
It's been a good weekend seeing all the family, I'm not ready for politics/relgion yet. :laugh: :laugh:
your al by baptism by religion by whatnot, but the question uis ( in my drunken state lol) what are you? what is spcterry? only spcterry can answer that :thumb:
I do not believe
your choice :thumb:
go to this page. check it out. spend some time actually reading it. then come back and try to tell me God doesn't exist.
www.myspace.com/kristyreynolds
ive just attempted to skim through 10 pages of postings trying to keep up with this topic.. :o
First off let me say im amazed that it didnt get farmed.
Second Im amazed it built up to 10 pages in one day. I dont think the helmet law discussion reached that mile marker.
Third As an offshoot to this post and to kinda see where everyone stands i wouldnt mind seeing a survey on what religions make up the board.. just to see where everyone is coming from.
I myself am a Taoist. I finally settled into this choice after trying out multiple religions throughout different parts of my life.
Wether or not i believe in a god or some higher being doesnt fully matter. What i belive matters, is how people act in their believe towards other religous sects. In other words if you are a christian i doubt god intended it to be a giant club where you must go out and recruit everyone else. If you are muslim dont go out and kill those who dont follow your idea's. I highly doubt thats what a greater power had in mind. If this was so he/she would have made everyone to think the same..
Im sorry if this covers somehting already said but like i mentioned earlier. 10 pages .....wow......im not reading through all of that at 12:00 at night.
:cry: :cry: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Everyone should believe in something. Me, I believe that I'm going to have another beer, just after I get to the bottles hop and grab a carton. :thumb:
Not to be a negativey nelly. But most of the bible including the Jesus story goes back to pegan mythology. There was a time I believed that Jesus existed but the facts and science do not support this. One example is Christmas. 150 years ago it was just a pegan holiday. The modern Santa is a product of the coca cola company
Quote from: jserio on January 08, 2008, 10:04:37 PM
go to this page. check it out. spend some time actually reading it. then come back and try to tell me God doesn't exist.
www.myspace.com/kristyreynolds
Ummm.... Is that gods myspace page? Cause asside from GOD having a page I dont see what that site proves :dunno_white: The baby was sick and GOD cured him? Well.... who shook him to that point. Was GOD not watching that day.. ? Was that just GOD messin around? Yea.. he likes to do that....
now you have cancer, now you dont.. haha! GO GOD! Healing and smiting all willy nilly like :laugh:
:icon_twisted:
I believe that there is Gs in my garage , i can feel it , touch it , smell it , ride it , its there ,
I beleive that the feeling of love and hate flows thro my body . i feel it when i start to become enraged and protective , when i want to stop people hurting the people i care about , i also no the feeling of staring into a girls eyes . and where the only to people that matter , theres the feeling of wanting to be that close
I believe wen i pick up my drum sticks , and hit that first beat ,the feeling of overwelming passion , and power i feel when im in the flow
3 things . One i no is there , i can touch it , ..... two arnt there , they dont smell , taste ,but there , there , i feel the power and the change in me .
I think these are the to feeliings. some people will pull out a book and recite a million pages to prove God doesnt exist , Another will Swear on the lords name , and say hes felt him through his body
There will never be a right answer , Personally , i dont think any ones there , but if people choose to beieve and have faith , then so be it , its something they care and believe
Quote from: nastynate6695 on January 08, 2008, 10:06:11 PM
....if you are a Christian i doubt god intended it to be a giant club where you must go out and recruit everyone else.
Actually, as a Christian, I believe I am expected to spread the teachings of Christ. It is, by our beliefs, only by believing that Christ is the Son of God, that He died for our sins, and was raised up to fulfill God's proficy that a soul can have everlasting life. Also, our faith is confirmed by our acts (not God's). Therefore, if we believe, we must work to help others find redemption, we must do charitable acts, we must be forgiving, loving, and while some Christians might disagree, Jesus teaches us to be tolerant. However, I don't want to force anyone to accept Jesus. I merely want to tell others about his teachings, my beliefs, and allow them to make their own decisions. Sadly, many 'Christians' don't share my views.
Quote from: frankieG on January 09, 2008, 03:07:58 PM
Not to be a negative nelly. But most of the bible including the Jesus story goes back to pegan mythology. ... One example is Christmas. 150 years ago it was just a pegan holiday. The modern Santa is a product of the coca cola company
This is only partially true. Christmas, as a holiday, has always been Christian. It is short for Christ's Mass, and was a Catholic Mass that celebrated the birth of Jesus. It, like many other Christian holidays, was later tied to a Germanic pagan holiday in an effort to convert those people to Christianity.
Easter is another example of a Christianized holiday. Easter (Esther) was a originally a holiday that celebrated a pagan goddess. The eggs given on that day were a sign of health and fertility. Once again, the Catholic church came along and tied the crucifixion and resurrection to this pagan holiday in another effort to convert those pagan individuals.
Finally, there's Halloween. Formally know as "All Hallows Eve", it was the evening that preceded "All Saints Day". This holiday was fabricated to coincide with another pagan celebration of, I believe, druid origins.Anyway, that's just a clarification on Frankie's observation.
Jesus lived. I think it's impossible to dispute that. I think all you can argue is, was he the Son of God and does he
still live? That argument led to his crucifixion, and it is still, obviously, debated today.
no matter what relegion you are or aren't, there's one common fact in every religion: FAITH. it even applies to agnostics. when you open the door to your garage, you expect your car/motorcycle to still be there, where you parked it. this is faith. you have faith that they will be there when that door goes up, even though at that moment before it goes up, you cannot see into the garage, you believe they will be there. now, could you prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that when you closed that door that your belongings were still there? if there's no windows, no way to see into your garage how can you convince me you have a motorcycle? how do you know it doesn't dissappear when you close the door? you can't. that's why we have faith. everyone does.
Quote from: oramac on January 09, 2008, 10:38:05 PM
Quote from: nastynate6695 on January 08, 2008, 10:06:11 PM
....if you are a Christian i doubt god intended it to be a giant club where you must go out and recruit everyone else.
Actually, as a Christian, I believe I am expected to spread the teachings of Christ. It is, by our beliefs, only by believing that Christ is the Son of God, that He died for our sins, and was raised up to fulfill God's proficy that a soul can have everlasting life. Also, our faith is confirmed by our acts (not God's). Therefore, if we believe, we must work to help others find redemption, we must do charitable acts, we must be forgiving, loving, and while some Christians might disagree, Jesus teaches us to be tolerant. However, I don't want to force anyone to accept Jesus. I merely want to tell others about his teachings, my beliefs, and allow them to make their own decisions. Sadly, many 'Christians' don't share my views.
Quote from: frankieG on January 09, 2008, 03:07:58 PM
Not to be a negative nelly. But most of the bible including the Jesus story goes back to pegan mythology. ... One example is Christmas. 150 years ago it was just a pegan holiday. The modern Santa is a product of the coca cola company
This is only partially true. Christmas, as a holiday, has always been Christian. It is short for Christ's Mass, and was a Catholic Mass that celebrated the birth of Jesus. It, like many other Christian holidays, was later tied to a Germanic pagan holiday in an effort to convert those people to Christianity.
Easter is another example of a Christianized holiday. Easter (Esther) was a originally a holiday that celebrated a pagan goddess. The eggs given on that day were a sign of health and fertility. Once again, the Catholic church came along and tied the crucifixion and resurrection to this pagan holiday in another effort to convert those pagan individuals.
Finally, there's Halloween. Formally know as "All Hallows Eve", it was the evening that preceded "All Saints Day". This holiday was fabricated to coincide with another pagan celebration of, I believe, druid origins.Anyway, that's just a clarification on Frankie's observation.
Jesus lived. I think it's impossible to dispute that. I think all you can argue is, was he the Son of God and does he still live? That argument led to his crucifixion, and it is still, obviously, debated today.
I am 100% with you. A man named Jesus did live and dedicate his life to the lord. Scholars from all of the Ivy leagues have validated this. Man, being the insecure creature that it is, is more than willing to believe that Jesus was the son of god because it validates his existence. Man wants to believe that there is meaning to existence and that we aren't just a random evolution based purely on circumstance. I'm neither validating nor refuting the 'position' of Jesus, I am rather torn at this point as far as religion and seriously contemplating converting to Judaism.
a pastor at a church i went to put it this way:
"By claiming to be Christian and follow Christ, I can afford to be wrong. Let's say for arugments sake that I do all things I'm commanded to in the Bible. I live what I and other Christians believe to be a Godly life. However, at the end of my life, after I die, there really is nothing. No afterlife, no Heaven or Hell. Looking back at my life would I have lost anything by living the way I chose to even if it turned out there was no afterlife? The answer is simple, no. Now, take the flip side of that. Let's say I chose not to believe. I chose to break every Christian commandment I can just because I can and don't believe in God, Jesus or Heaven and Hell. Once again, at the end of my life, I die, but I discover there is indeed an afterlife. Heaven and Hell DO exist. But, since I chose not to obey God and try to live a Christian life, I'm going to Hell. Boy, wouldn't that suck? As a Christian, I can afford to be wrong. Can you afford to be wrong by denying Jesus?"
The one thing that impresses me about modern Judaism, at least in the states, is their tolerance and acceptance of other religions.
ABRAHAM JOSHUA HESCHEL:
The problem to be faced is: how to combine loyalty to one's own tradition with reverence for different traditions.
If you were to really celebrate christs mass it would be in september not december, it's an amazing coincidence that christmass is celebrated 3 days after the winter solstice a day of signifigance in pagan religion.
Every "Christian" holiday was engineered by the church to coincide with pagan celebrations.
Quote from: bettingpython on January 10, 2008, 05:20:51 AM
If you were to really celebrate christs mass it would be in september not december, it's an amazing coincidence that christmass is celebrated 3 days after the winter solstice a day of signifigance in pagan religion.
Every "Christian" holiday was engineered by the church to coincide with pagan celebrations.
Umm....BP.... if you look up just a few posts, I already said all that in great detail. Thanks for the Cliff's notes! :icon_razz:
:dunno_white:
A little church won't hurt me. Maybe ill go for a change
honestly frankie, no one can "force" you to believe/not believe. that is your choice and yours alone. at least, if you go, try some different ones, and ask questions. and of those questions, ask how it relates to teh bible ( or whichever holy book they use), and where it can be found within it. perhaps ask questions of religious sholars in your area. but anyhoo take care, and god bless sir :thumb:
Quote from: oramac on January 09, 2008, 10:38:05 PM
Actually, as a Christian, I believe I am expected to spread the teachings of Christ. It is, by our beliefs, only by believing that Christ is the Son of God, that He died for our sins, and was raised up to fulfill God's proficy that a soul can have everlasting life. Also, our faith is confirmed by our acts (not God's). Therefore, if we believe, we must work to help others find redemption, we must do charitable acts, we must be forgiving, loving, and while some Christians might disagree, Jesus teaches us to be tolerant. However, I don't want to force anyone to accept Jesus. I merely want to tell others about his teachings, my beliefs, and allow them to make their own decisions. Sadly, many 'Christians' don't share my views.
+50,000,000
I really do wish more Christians thought and acted like you. It's really those types of Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. that you speak of that have deterred me from organized religion. I feel that God is a personal relationship, that you chose to worship as you see fit. It is great to spread ideas and ideals, but imposing them on others is just plain wrong, no matter what religion you practice.
Organized religion has been influenced by so much politics throughout history, that it is difficult to tell what to believe in the bible, q'ran, torah, etc. People are so worried about following literal meaning, which was most likely placed there after the fact because it was good for some pope/rabbi/cardinal/shaman's political gain within the religious ranks. Not enough people concern themselves with the principles and true meaning of their religion. They are more concerned about following some rhetorical "to do" list of dogma written by man.
I can't help but think of all this as superstition, but I have no problem with people how think of it as factual. I just ask that they let me alone in my beliefs. That said this was a good read.
see no one can force anyone to accept jesus. only oneself can do that :thumb:
Thank God I'm an Atheist ;)
:cheers:
J
Any of you who have 10 min to watch Tom Cruise talk about Scientology, check this out! (http://gawker.com/5002269/the-cruise-indoctrination-video-scientology-tried-to-suppress)
Thoughts...
Cheers,
J
Quote from: groff22 on January 21, 2008, 09:48:28 AM
Any of you who have 10 min to watch Tom Cruise talk about Scientology, check this out! (http://gawker.com/5002269/the-cruise-indoctrination-video-scientology-tried-to-suppress)
Thoughts...
Cheers,
J
i dont think i have enough money in my bank account to be allowed to watch this :cry:
Quote from: nastynate6695 on January 21, 2008, 05:02:08 PM
Quote from: groff22 on January 21, 2008, 09:48:28 AM
Any of you who have 10 min to watch Tom Cruise talk about Scientology, check this out! (http://gawker.com/5002269/the-cruise-indoctrination-video-scientology-tried-to-suppress)
Thoughts...
Cheers,
J
i dont think i have enough money in my bank account to be allowed to watch this :cry:
:laugh: They do make you spend some coin :thumb:
But... Scientology is not a religion :thumb: exactly
The word "Scientology" means "the study of knowledge or truth."
They only created classes and programs to better the way you and yours live and work with others... In Scientology there is no talk of GOD or superior beings or anything... as a matter of fact there are Catholic, Christian, Jewish etc.. Scientologists :thumb: I know and have meet many Scientologists... Kirsty Ally, John Trevolta and many more. I have gone to some classes and taken some courses.
I like Scientology to an extent, there are some truly AMAZING things that you can learn from it. But.. YEa... $$$$$$$$$ You will pay for it, all the classes and training costs BIG $$$
And just like anything with Scientology there is some good to it and some bad. Some things they do are VERY strange but some make SOOO much sense that I think everyone would agree with...
I am with a few others on here... To each his own! respect others choices and religions there is something to be learned from them all :thumb:
like tithes
Yea, but in some sects of Scientology the "tithes" can be EXTREME! Like..
Hey, make your kid come and work on our ship for 4 years and we will give you a few "free classes" then, we will brain wash your kid to stay with us and we will pay them only so they can give all their $ back to "Learn more" about the secrets of life :cookoo:
Yea.. they have a ship where you go and learn and travel, its cool but some of the sacrifices you have to make for them are beyond what I would be comfortable with :thumb:
But like I said, I know of MANY people who are HUGE success and owe it all to Scientology :dunno_white: they have some EXCELLENT publications on everything from Family values to dealing with people at work. But not one thing in Scientology is religious :thumb: in the sense that "religion" means believing on a higher power... They leave that up to the individual :thumb:
Here is a cool description of Scientology.. Now, they do call it a religion. but if you look deeper into it like I have its not "religion" in the sense that most would think
http://www.religioustolerance.org/scientol1.htm
OK.. now I am off on a Scientology kick... This paragraph about sums up why I like "some" of what they believe...
Some religions try to help humanity by solving people's problems for them. Scientology is different — it believes in increasing the ability and intelligence of the individual so he or she can improve his own life, overcome those factors that hold him down, and solve his or her own problems. What's more, once one has accomplished this he or she naturally starts to reach out to help his family, friends and society.
I think in allot of other religions people are "trained" to believe that prayer and worship can make things better. Well.... ITS NOT! If God, Buda or whoever was so vein that they would only heal your grandma because 25 people prayed for her at your church on Sunday then :cookoo:
Its up to us to help ourselves and others ON OUR OWN!
:thumb:
i do like the " core values" that most religions have, ( mine included)i accept all people regardless of how they look/act, so to me it DOES NOT matter what you look like or how you act ( the verse goes something like " god created man in his own image" also people do things i may not agree with, but i dont harm/hurt them or even talk bad to them or behind their back, the verse goes something like this ( judge not. lest ye be judged"). i jsut wish people would at least pay attention to, if not live by some of teh rules in the ten commandments, like i dont know, not killing, not stealing( if you needed, and had not, someone would more than likely give it to you . usually a church or a group or a charity), also not coveting thy neighbors wife, or committing adultery , ( i am guilty of that :oops: :mad:)etc,