I think they should ALL be sent home immediately. No if-ands-or buts. As soon as you catch one, it's back to the border.
Also, I think an employer found hiring an illegal should be fined $100,000 PER incident. They come here for the jobs, make it VERY uneconomic to get caught hiring one. It's simple. Show up, surround the building, snatch the illegals and start tallying up the fine. For 10 it's a million bucks. Payable BEFORE the business can open again. Make it hurt so bad that they won't hire them again. Like the punitive damages it should be. Illegals are costing taxpayers a LOT of money.
This "no American is WILLING to do the work" is pure crap. We have 6% unemployment let them do those jobs until they find something better. Let the high school kids do them. Americans won't do the work because we allow people to get away with NOT having to do ANYTHING when unemployed. Let welfare mothers do those jobs too. Half can work, the other half watch the kids. Let them switch every week. You people in border states, isn't it true that young kids can't get decent jobs in the evening or during summer because grown mexicans have taken them all? Forget about fast food, any restaurant, any low skill job.
These jobs are completely unskilled, ANYONE can do them with an hour's training.
No licenses, no benefits, no compassion. You shouldn't be here, you get nothing, and if we catch you you're gone. It's a shame that people take advantage of our free society. It's easy to "get lost" underground. You know what the police say is the biggest problem with illegals? Hit and run accidents. They don't have insurance and they don't want to get caught. So they run. Yea, these are REAL nice people we've got here huh? I've seen reports that almost 50% of prisoners in CA are illegals who have committed a serious crime. Hell, I'd be willing to electrify the border, shoot anyone breaking in. These people are NOT good for us. Even doing these jobs they cost more than they contribute. Anyone making under $20,000 a year is costing you much more than they contribute in taxes. Much more! Add a family, a few kids and you're paying out the nose for your "cheap labor". We'd be better off paying $10 an hour to Americans than $4 an hour to some illegal Mexican.
I read the story today about Utah wanting illegals to have a drivers card. Not a license but a driving privilege card to only be used for driving. Not legal ID for bank accounts, boarding planes, etc. and the illegal immigrants rights organizations (can you believe these people exist?) want it stopped. They have the gall to compare it with the Jews in Germany! Pleease... NOT even close you clueless a$$holes! There is SO big a difference between killing off your own people and trying to keep people who don't belong out. My God, these people are idiots or think you are.
I read that story and just HAD to see what you people thought... So tell me, what should be done?
I totally agree that our current illegal worker situation is a problem. Neither political party is eager to fix it though. Business needs a supply of cheap exploitable labor to keep prices low and profits high. Aggressive and significant enforcement of labor laws would do more than building a fence all along the Mexican border.
However, I don't blame illegal workers for coming here, they are doing what most people do, trying to make a better life for their family. They are taking jobs that Americans won't take for similar wages. IF we make it too costly for businesses to employ illegals then wages will rise and natives will go back to working in construction, cleaning chickens, and picking produce.
BUT this will make the cost of everything in our society go up. I for one, am willing to pay (I already pay more for American made stuff) But it appears that the mindless slobs that waddle down to Wal-Mart to buy their Chinese made yellow ribbon magnets and their Indonesian American Flag shirts just don't make the connection.
My final Buddha Loves You is that it is NOT the job of the states to enforce immigration law, that is a federal duty. Driver's licenses and SS cards are not and should not be citizenship papers. Forcing states to verify the status of DL appicants is an unfunded mandate. If the fed. government thinks we need "papers" to travel domestically then they should institute such a program.
Neither major political party or the President has the guts to do anything about illegal immigration and border control. Follow the $$$ and you will see why! :x :x :x :x
i smell the tard farm..
illegal immigration while it has its things, why isn't it seen that we are making profit out of their misery. I am an environmentalist and I see both sides of the picture, the side the americans are making money off the illegal aliens that make it across the border as migrant farm workers and those who send money back to their home country to keep the fires burning.
Mexico has more money going back per year back to their home country than all the trade Mexico does with the US.
SO technically both countries are benefitting from the issue of illegal immigration. While there are benefits, the reason it's not legalized is because if it was everyone would be here.
The problem is multi-level. On one hand you say taking jobs out of Americans, but you and I as Americans, would we want to be working on the farm? I am an enviormental guy, and I opt for a cushy desk job over a outdoor always job. It's not for me.
As for driving licences, it's a touchy issue. On one hand I do agree i would rather have them have a proper licence, since they are already here, but should it be given a sticker / code for being not allowed to start anything else. I guess a DL should be fine, cause in the US you still need the SSN for anything else to be opened..
Personally I think it would be cheaper for all of us in the long run to raise the pay (a bit) and get Americans back into these jobs. Like I said, there is about 6% unemployment right now. With a working population of say 100 million that's 6 million "crap jobs" that could/should be filled by Americans tomorrow! WHY don't unemployed people HAVE to take ANY job that they can get? I mean where does it say you HAVE to wait for a SIMILAR job? Why the hell are we PAYING people to SIT and wait for a comparable job? You take what you can get until you find the job you want. I mean we all do that now right? Most people are always looking for the bigger better job right? I know they're NOT out looking for a job 8 hours a day 5 days a week.
We'll ALWAYS have unskilled people in this country that can fill no-skill jobs. I just don't get the acceptance by the public of the "refuse" part... Jobs Americans REFUSE to do. Know why they refuse? Because the government, with taxpayer money, is willing to let them off the hook and would rather have people on welfare than working. In the long run (for every taxpayer) it's MUCH better to have everyone working at a "living" wage, say $10 an hour than to have people getting paid $4 an hour and receiving all kinds of aid.
Illegals are starting their OWN businesses and driving out the American businesses because they're willing to work so cheap. Landscaping is becoming almost entirely mexican.
Hell, we're NOT competing with China now. Go to a store like Wal-Mart and look around, 90% of EVERYTHING in there is made in China. But most of the jobs that the illegals take are NOT really manufacturing. They do the food/service jobs that would stay here anyway and might raise the cost of your food/services by a few percent. Don't let them kid you, the money saved by having low cost illegal labor goes RIGHT to profits. They'd STILL make a ton of money paying a few dollars more. But, not paying for the services these people use would drop taxes probably by double digits. I'm not just talking illegals here, I'm talking the whole "working poor" give them a living wage and get them off the government services rolls.
I do blame them for coming here along with the businesses that hire them. Even where I live I'm beginning to see the local Wal-Mart turning into little mexico. I'm hearing WAY too much spanish being blabbered... It's been proven, they break the law to get here, they break the laws while here, and they're nothing but a drain on our economy. It's FALSE that they are good for us. We spend FAR more on them than they will ever produce or save with lower cost goods. Border states are going bankrupt providing for immigrants.
I'm starting to hate just seeing them. If they'd only learn/speak English and TRY to assimilate into OUR culture I wouldn't mind so much and maybe I could be more tolerant. But to see them blabbering spanish, flying the mexican flag, having no respect for us and our society... Well, it makes me angry and it makes me want to get rid of every last one of them.
Well, that's just it isn't it, as far as the job thing goes. You say that you prefer a cushy desk job. What about people who LIKE to work outside and do the jobs quite well? Shouldn't a person in the "service industry" make wages that are comparable to the cushy desk jobs? I definitely agree with a lot of what Lenny and Joe are implying in this thread. I mean is it going to get to a point in this country where the only decent way to make a living is in a cushy desk job? Actually it sounds more like a realistic socialist economy if it comes to that; a few "kings" here and there and everybody else is scraping to get by. Love the bike and the forum.
C.......
What do you mean give them a drivers license? When they show up without documents they should be escorted to the holding area to be sent back! That goes for anything they try to sign up for. Why do we tolerate this? Would you allow just anyone to climb through your window at home? And once they were there to help themselves to your stuff? It's the same thing when entering a country only it's EVERYONES stuff they're taking.
Each poor families child costs about $6,000 a year JUST to educate. NONE of the illegals pay anywhere near that in taxes. Add to that FREE medical care they receive and the costs go through the roof.
There are a LOT of spoiled kids and people on welfare who have NO skills who could very easily do those jobs IF the government wasn't so quick to let people sit on their ass and do nothing. I had really crappy jobs as a kid, the kinds the mexicans are doing now. It made me want to get an education and do better. Now all the kids want to be CEO right out of school and REFUSE to do menial work. It's CRAP.
And what is all this garbage about "their misery", their "being taken advantage of". What a load that is. Compared to making a living picking through a dump it's paradise here. People don't climb walls and cut fences to be taken advantage of. They do it to take advantage of the ones whose wall they're climbing. But you know what, the conditions in mexico are NOT my problem. Let them CHANGE their own country instead of sneaking into mine and ruining it too. So, I guess we need to open up everything to anyone who has it worse than we do? I guess you'd have no problem with an additional 4 billion people coming over here to live? People willing to break ONE law to get their way are usually willing to break ALL that get in their way to get their way. Think about that too.
You see ALL these 3rd world countries are the way they are because the people won't do anything to change them. The U.S. can't take care of everyone in the world. We already keep most of Africa alive. We can't afford perpetual welfare nations. We do our best through trade. Trade usually slowly helps to build up a country and make it slowly become richer. But, change MUST come from within.
I think we all basically agree that the citizens of the country (not necessarily the corporations) would ultimately be better off with strict immigration enforcement. BUT we already deport illegals when we catch them unless they apply for political asylum and then they get a hearing first.
My main point is that this can only be accomplished by the federal governement. Texas, Arizona, and California can't just be responsible. I'm not a fan of big federal power but this is clearly one of the jobs they should be doing. When I moved to Texas, I didn't have to prove I was a US citizen to get a DL. A picture ID and a SS card are all I needed. A SS card is a tax document and is already available to foreigners. The only document that proves you are a US citizen is a passport and only about 1/2 of Americans have one of those.
Illegals will continue to stream here as long as they can get away with it. Businesses will continue to hire them because there is no risk involved and the economic benefit is huge. Joerocker's initial suggestions of penalties is a good one IMHO. Current penalties max out around $2000 but the number of INS agents to enforce this is miniscule. I wish they would fire half the f*!ktards working for HSA at the airport and hire Border Patrol and Immigration officers.
In my opinon, trying to shut the border to illegals works as well as trying to shut the borders to drugs. These laws are not enforced for a reason.
:cheers:
I'm pretty naive on this topic but this is how I see it. The real problem is this; when illegal immigrants take American's jobs, only a select few CEO's and business affiliates benefit. Another classic case of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.
Nothing good will come of it. QuoteLet them CHANGE their own country instead of sneaking into mine and ruining it too.
I doubt they're going to change their system in order to benefit ours, so the only way to solve this is to bring the fight to their doorstep. But how do we go into Mexico and change their system to work with ours? How do we help them to make their country worth living in? This would be easier if their econcomic structure was similar to ours but obviously it's not. And what gives us the right to do so anyways? I'm running into a dead end with this. Ah well, I tried.
This issue is just as screwy as Social Security, but I find it interesting and don't think it should head towards the tard farm. Lovin' that baby G and this forum.
We change them as we are doing in the middle east. There we're changing things because they have something we need, oil. Oil is important... Right now it is the MOST important thing on this earth besides air and water. OK, and ground to stand on. Oil is used for practically everything. Now the problem, crazy and I mean that literally, Muslims own most of it and there is a growing trend within those oil owning countries of anti-westernism. And some of them are getting dangerously close to having nukes. So, what to do, what to do... You change them. You start with the weakest... Afghanastan. They were run by a group that EVERYONE in the world thought were crazy. Blowing up old old old statues and destroying other historic treasures. Easy target there, nobody would argue they needed changing. Besides they were supporting bin laden. Then you go after another troubled country, Iraq. Saddam had given the world the finger for over 10 years. Problem was some major countries had been cheating pretty bad making deals with Saddam and were owed a pretty penny. They balked. OK, it's been done. Which leaves Iran (the most important country needing changing because most agree that they're real close to having nukes). Iran wants it all. They have like 1/4 of all the middle east oil but think just as Saddam did that they should have it all. They HATE the west and all it stands for. Things like freedom. If you don't believe that Afghanastan and Iraq are not part of a plan to squeeze Iran you're not paying attention. It's no coincidence that we now have bases on both sides of that country.
You see, trade/business is THE only way to go. It helps everyone who plays along. If you're not involved you remain primitive. Unfortunately there are many in Islam who feel that this is the way to stay, in the 13th century. But we NEED them to play the business game because we need their oil. So, for good or evil we have to change them. We have to get them to play the business game. Is it right to change a government for our own good? I say it's fine if the government is an Islamic one. Do you know how they treat their people? The women have NO rights. None, nada. No leaving the house without totally covering up. No leaving the house without a male relative escort. No driving. No traveling without permission. Can't eat in public. Can't use the same line as men. To me this reminds me of the slavery days. Sure, change their system... big time! Oh, and that country I described was one of the "better" ones, Saudi Arabia, a relatively west friendly country. Others are worse.
Mexico's problem is corruption. Everything and everybody there is corrupt. A $100 bill with take care of just about anything.
Social Security just needs to be modified so it can support itself. The taxes paid need to rise. There are already private accounts called IRAs. SS's biggest drain is the children and disabled drawing too. They account for almost half. SS is a safety net to keep people from starving in the streets. Keep it intact and raise the age to collect and the witholding.
Quote from: joerockerI'm starting to hate just seeing them. If they'd only learn/speak English and TRY to assimilate into OUR culture I wouldn't mind so much and maybe I could be more tolerant. But to see them blabbering spanish, flying the mexican flag, having no respect for us and our society... Well, it makes me angry and it makes me want to get rid of every last one of them.
Hmmm... sounds like something a "Native American" might have said a short 150 years ago.... :roll:
As for "having no respect for us and our society".... As a hard-working Mexican (many of them are, you know) would you have respect for a society that allowed (and consisted largely of) THIS?
Quote from: joerockerThere are a LOT of spoiled kids and people on welfare who have NO skills who could very easily do those jobs IF the government wasn't so quick to let people sit on their ass and do nothing. I had really crappy jobs as a kid, the kinds the mexicans are doing now. It made me want to get an education and do better. Now all the kids want to be CEO right out of school and REFUSE to do menial work.
And couldn't you also imagine Mexicans saying:
Quote from: joerockerThere we're changing things because they have something we need, [money]. [Money] is important...
As usual, I'm trying not to take sides on the issue - I actually don't know a whole lot about it. Just finding interesting points about the stated position of the one who spoke up.... :dunno:
In a bad analogy to another recent discussion, the US comes out sounding a lot like a well-organized religion. Is THIS what you believe in, Joe?
Quote from: callmelenny
In my opinon, trying to shut the border to illegals works as well as trying to shut the borders to drugs. These laws are not enforced for a reason.
:cheers:
Oh how right you are... There is a HUGE demand for drugs AND there is a HUGE demand for cheap labor. The drugs will find a way in regardless of how hard the government tries to stop them. People want their drugs. As long as people hire them, illegals will find a way in too. We MUST stop the demand with HUGE fines to companies who hire illegals. As said earlier, it's all profit driven. CEOs these days work for just a few years and take hundreds of millions in salaries and benefits even if they drive the company into the ground. Make the risk/reward too great and you CAN stop it. At $100,000 a pop for each illegal the government would actually MAKE money looking for illegals. It's almost treasonist to hire an illegal knowing what it costs the country.
But you know what, it will never happen for at least two reasons. First: the businesses run the country through campaign contributions. Business gets what it wants. And second: We NEED more workers, or more exactly, we need more people or working/breeding age to keep the population expanding. You see, everything is a big pyramid scheme. As long as the population keeps growing there is plenty to give to those at the top. When populations stagnate (as it is now for white people in the U.S.) growth stops and everything grinds to a halt. THAT is the big problem with the boomers. When they were all working/producing/buying/paying taxes everything was grand and expanding. Now that it's their turn to "collect" there aren't the workers to pay their way. There aren't enough at the bottom to give to those at the top.
Kerry, you're absolutely right about the native americans. They got screwed no doubt about it. But, so has EVERY native group all over the world. I have German blood, the Romans conquered them, I don't hate Italians. Someone has invaded everywhere at one time or another and killed or converted every group that was conquered. BUT, now that I'm living here, I want to keep it the way it is and keep out the invaders. And we ARE being invaded. Should the native americans be bitter, I guess maybe, but they've had a LONG time to become part of mainstream society and they haven't. They continue to play the victim even though the government has done a lot to train them to be regular working citizens. They have a choice, join society or live in isolation on a reservation. Same with the blacks, they've been screwed in the past but now several generations later it's done, become part of the existing society and move on. If the mexicans take over the U.S. I'll have to adapt but I'll fight it until it's inevitable.
OK, now lets not get carried away. A LOT of lazy people is NOT all. I'd say 10% are lazy. Enough as I said before to take the jobs that the illegals have stolen (and that is axactly what they've done) from Americans. Yes, if you think enough of a country to want to go there, you should respect it (and it's people) enough to assimilate into it. I wouldn't go to Japan and DEMAND everything be written in English. I'd learn Japanese. I wouldn't hang U.S. flags all over my house. That just keeps you different. When in Rome you must, out of respect, and to be accepted, act like a Roman!
Money IS important don't you agree? But you miss the point. They don't have the money we do. They want OUR money. We want to trade.
Is business a religion? Hmmm... No, just a better system than most governments. By and large, business IS good for everyone. Now a corrupt business isn't and that is what makes the headlines. If every country had multinational corporations there wouldn't be any wars. Think about it. I you owned a piece of my country and I owned a piece of yours would we want to fight? To possibly wreck the infrastructure and hinder the ability to continue trading? No! When people own things in each other's country they are FAR less likely to want to fight. There is too much to lose. That is why France/Germany/Russia didn't want the war in Iraq, they were in there with investments legally or not and had a lot to lose.
ok. let's just say we drive all the illegals out of the country...do you really think that the unemployed number will go down?? give me a break! there always will be unemployed people in this country, in any country for that matter. that's just a fact of life. if the unemployed of america want to get off their butt and go get a job, they CAN! it's not like every job in this country is filled...
if you say 6% unemployed figure is low-skilled workers, it might make a little more sense but just to blankly state that the illegals are taking our jobs just doesn't fly with me.
even if we put up a 50 ft "berlin wall", they'll try to get in, hell they'll swim in if they can,. like another said, even if we drive all of them out, we'll still have unemployment, either because of non-qualification for said jobs, laziness, or for whatever reason, it is a win-win/lose-lose situation :dunno:
Well... This didn't go over well... Not controversial enough? Too much?
Just remember there are upwards of 10 MILLION illegals in this country who are stealing your kids' jobs and stealing your tax money.
So, don't complain to me when things start going downhill. These are homeless mexicans moving to our country. Getting/using MUCH more than they're producing.
Look at it this way... How would you feel if a homeless family decided to move into your backyard? What if they started using your hose for water and plugged into your outside outlet to get their electricity. Would you be happy? Of course not. That is EXACTLY what is going on here only it's your country and there are millions of families living in our backyard.
Oh, and by the way to all you people who don't think that illegals have any bearing on unemployment... Do you know how the unemployment numbers are figured? They count ONLY people collecting unemployment compensation. Once you drop off the rolls you're considered "jobbed". The ACTUAL number of unemployed is probably close to double the reported number. Which would put it right around 10 million people without jobs. Hmmm, funny how that number is so close to the number of illegals... Supply and demand maybe? The number of illegals matches the number of jobs that Americans don't have.
I guess I'll have to think of something to get the sparks flying.
Well, there's at least one example that backs up Rocker's claim that illegals take American jobs away and that would the infamous Walmart case where that retailer replaced its regular P.M. clean-up crew with outside contract labor made up of illegal Mexican aliens. :nono:
I don't know if Walmart got fined [they pleaded ignorance regarding the contract labor]. I do remember that not only were the illegals not deported but they filed a class action lawsuit against the American retailer for paying wages below the legal rate and they sued not to lose those jobs. Clearly, Mexican aliens are the beneficiaries of mucho political support in this country. :roll:
And, who can forget the Bush plan for Mexican guest workers? The offer was that they could legally take jobs that Americans declined to take. The hell you say! Mexicans bust their butts to get those jobs and they're not about to let any native born American take it away! Besides, they are not interested in earning legal status through any guest worker program over a period of time. No, they want blanket amnesty now.
Realistically, attempting to repatriate 10 million[?] illegals would constitute ethnic cleansing according to the standard Clinton set in Kosovo. :guns:
QuoteRealistically, attempting to repatriate 10 million[?] illegals would constitute ethnic cleansing according to the standard Clinton set in Kosovo
This would be true, if it were only Mexicans, but there are plenty of every type scattered across the USA. lets see, here in fla, we have mostly, Cubans and Haitians but there are quite a few Mmexicans too traveling with Construction companies and seasonal farm hands.
Hey, what's that noise? Oh, yeah, it's the sound of Marshall McLuhan rolling in his grave. :lol:
Seriously, see here (http://www.unisa.edu.au/unisanews/2004/August/images/baxtergate.jpg)for Australia's solution. This is the gate to Baxter Detention Centre, in the middle of the South Australian desert. This is where you wait while your case is decided, then if the emperor gives the thumbs down it's back to where you came from. Apparently it's either heaven on earth or a real hellhole, depending whose propaganda you believe. I've not been there (I was born in AUS- yes, I know, being able to admit it is the first step to recovery :P ) so I can't speak from experience.
immigrants provide a valuable service. mainly, cheap labor. they take jobs most of us would stick our noses up at. i seriously doubt driving out the immigrant labor would have much effect on unemployment as they are taking jobs MOST OF US DON'T WANT.
plus, they work hard as shaZam!. i sit my ass behind a desk all day playing on the computer in an air conditioned office. these guys are working in construction, cleaning, landscaping, fixing your car and otherwise busting their humps all day. and if they want to take the $20 they earned and send it back to their family in mexico where it will feed them for a month, then by all means, they earned it. it's not going to hurt you any.
how many of you would get up at the crack of dawn and go sit at the local day laborer camp just hoping to get a job for the day? not many. i bet in the same situation, most of us would head to the unemployment line, and then to the couch to watch price is right.
if you want to blame someone for the economic problems we are having, try blaming the government who is spending 500 billion dollars more a year than it brings in, and whose second largest expense after medicare is debt interest.
Quote from: joerockerOh, and by the way to all you people who don't think that illegals have any bearing on unemployment... Do you know how the unemployment numbers are figured? They count ONLY people collecting unemployment compensation. Once you drop off the rolls you're considered "jobbed".
i believe that is incorrect. they count the number of people actually looking for work that can't find it. which is to say, if you are looking for a job, but give up because you can't find one for whatever reason, you are no longer considered unemployed.
anyway, the unemployment rate right now is somewhere around 5.2-5.4%, which historically is not very high. in the best of times, the unemployment rate doesn't drop below 3% or so. even in the late 90s when the economy was booming, the unemployment rate never went below 4%
here's some statistics from the department of labor...
http://www.bls.gov/fls/home.htm
I'll go out on a limb here...
I don't think cheap labor is a valuable service.
The rates paid to illegals for many dangerous and hard jobs do not attract natives, that is why the jobs are filled by illegals. This cheap labor lowers the cost of our produce, housing, etc. BUT we taxpayers subsidize these low costs through other means. Illegals don't get workers comp when they get hurt, public hospitals cover their treatment. Many are paid under the table in cash, so they don't pay as many taxes. If they have children, they stress the education system.
If we enforce immigration law, employers will have to raise wages to fill jobs. This will raise prices on goods and services but will lower the burden on other sectors of the economy.
callmelenny,
YOU have it exactly right! Bravo!
jiggersplat,
And HOW pray tell do you count people looking for work? Do you get a call every morning asking if you have a job or are looking? The official unemployment rate is the people who are collecting benefits. That is the ONLY number the government has. They know how many ARE working (legally anyway) through payroll taxes. Or I guess I should say how many jobs that are filled. There is NO WAY to determine exactly how many are unemployed. AND without an additional 10 million ILLEGAL job holders the unemployment rate COULD easily hit 0%.
And what do you think a big part of that defecit the government is running is spent on? Give up? Money spent on people who "refuse" to do certain jobs. Entitlements take up a BIG part of the budget. We have welfare mothers who WON'T work. We have people collecting unemployment because they want another "cushy" job and WON'T (if only temporarily) take a "crap" job. We treat people like kings and queens here. Refuse to work no problem, there is a program or two to give you a home and money. What you described is exactly what happens BECAUSE WE LET IT. People get to sit at home and watch the price is right and WE pay them to do it. Anyone can find a crooked doctor to proclaim them "disabled" Medicare/medicaid fraud is HUGE. Welfare fraud is HUGE. There are people living in Chicago who collect welfare from 3 states. IL, IN, and WI. They just take a bus to each office. The are ORGANIZED! They work in groups. One person in each state and they share addresses between them.
Eliminating fraud would cut the budget by probably a third. Eliminating the illegals and paying a "living" wage to Americans would be better for us all.
It's sad but the only solution to all the fraud I see is a national ID card AND biometric ID linked to an address. Because of ALL the people who game the system I think it's going to happen. Because of thieves, big brother has to keep track of us all. Once again, a few bad apples ruin it for everyone. Once again the bad 5% ruin it for the other 95%.
Here (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43177) is a link to Barb Simson's column on WorldNetDaily.com. About halfway through the article she lists these statistics on how "cheap" illegals are:
QuoteAccording to the Center for Immigration Studies, some of the largest costs to Americans are: federal school aid ($1.4 billion); food programs including food stamps, WIC, free school lunches ($1.9 billion); medical treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); emergency room health care, Medicaid ($2.5 billion); and federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion). Every year!
Given a population of 300 million (it's actually about 296, but close enough) that works out to $32 per capita per year. Remember, these were called the "largest costs" so I assume there are more. :dunno:
Too much to accept? Too little to complain about? You decide.
This is from the Bureau of Labor Statistics website.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.tn.htm
QuoteThis news release presents statistics from two major surveys, the Current Population Survey (household survey) and the Current Employment Statistics survey (establishment survey). The household survey provides the information on the labor force, employment, and unemployment that appears in the A tables, marked HOUSEHOLD DATA. It is a sample survey of about 60,000 households conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau for the Bureau of Labor Statistics
.
.
.
People are classified as employed if they did any work at all as paid employees during the reference week; worked in their own business, profession, or on their own farm; or worked without pay at least 15 hours in a family business or farm. People are also counted as employed if they were temporarily absent from their jobs because of illness, bad weather, vacation, labor-management disputes, or personal reasons.
People are classified as unemployed if they meet all of the following criteria: They had no employment during the reference week; they were available for work at that time; and they made specific efforts to find employment sometime during the 4-week period ending with the reference week. Persons laid off from a job and expecting recall need not be looking for work to be counted as unemployed. The unemployment data derived from the household survey in no way depend upon the eligibility for or receipt of unemployment insurance benefits.
Quote from: joerocker
And what do you think a big part of that defecit the government is running is spent on? Give up? Money spent on people who "refuse" to do certain jobs. Entitlements take up a BIG part of the budget. We have welfare mothers who WON'T work. We have people collecting unemployment because they want another "cushy" job and WON'T (if only temporarily) take a "crap" job. We treat people like kings and queens here. Refuse to work no problem, there is a program or two to give you a home and money. What you described is exactly what happens BECAUSE WE LET IT. People get to sit at home and watch the price is right and WE pay them to do it. Anyone can find a crooked doctor to proclaim them "disabled" Medicare/medicaid fraud is HUGE. Welfare fraud is HUGE. There are people living in Chicago who collect welfare from 3 states. IL, IN, and WI. They just take a bus to each office. The are ORGANIZED! They work in groups. One person in each state and they share addresses between them.
i agree with you whole-heartedly that the welfare system is abused. but i don't know how you can sort out the people who really need it from the people who are just lazy. therefore, i propose we eliminate all welfare, medicare and social security. :)
Quote from: callmelennyI don't think cheap labor is a valuable service.
spend a month only buying stuff "made in china" and a month buying stuff "made in america" and then you will appreciate cheap labor.
here's some more fuel for the fire :P
http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart
Quote from: KerryGiven a population of 300 million (it's actually about 296, but close enough) that works out to $32 per capita per year. Remember, these were called the "largest costs" so I assume there are more. :dunno:
Too much to accept? Too little to complain about? You decide.
But not all 300 million of those are taxpayers. How many children and non working spouses and welfare recipients are included in that 300 mill?
You're absolutely right. Each taxpayer would need to adjust to cover his dependents.
Family of 4 w/1 taxpayer = $128 a year for that taxpayer. Family of 6 = $192 a year, and so on. Then add some for families who don't pay taxes at all, etc.
I just wanted to bring the billions down to the pocketbook level.
According to the last statistics I had read on employment levels, there are roughly 145-150 million taxpayers in the country. So instead of 32$ per capita let's call it 64. Are people so freakin' greedy, stingy, selfish and un-compassionate to not donate 64$/worker to ensure that someone running into some bad circumstances doesn't wind up totally homeless? I would rather pay a little bit to ensure that some have a safety net even if a few jerks somehow take advantage of the system than to take that net away just make sure a few jerks don't take advantage. Oh, another thing, it's not quite as easy as one would think to receive benefits along the line of welfare. Just like unemployment too, many of the benefits are time-limited...once you have received them a period of time, that's it. Love the Baby GS and the forum.
C.......
Wait a minute kerry and cernuos... Those numbers were the cost to Americans for just the ILLEGALS meaning that per capita the services that ILLEGALS use is $32+. And don't forget for a family of 4 that would be about $130 a year JUST FOR ILLEGALS! Yes, it's too much. That $32 per capita is NOT for Americans on welfare! BTW, you're paying a LOT more than $32 for them. Entitlement are something like half the entire budget. Did you know that every persons share of the national DEBT is $25,000? For taxpayers it's closer to $50-75,000. Amazing huh?
How do you fix the fraud? Let people snitch. Like the insurance companies do. Let people videotape the "disabled" or have stores turn them in when they buy their t-bones steaks and hagan das ice cream and Coke with food stamps. Pay $100 a pop for each one you catch. Hell, I could make it into a business.
I stand corrected in regard to the unemployment numbers. Thank you jiggersplat! I have a friend who worked in the unemployment office in the 1970s who told me about how the official numbers weren't accurate and I got this off the internet:
The discrepancy originates in the methodology of calculating unemployment rates: only those signed up at the unemployment office are being officially counted as unemployed. The six million officially unemployed persons consist solely of those who are registered at state unemployment centers as actively seeking for work. Many millions more have concluded that pursuing nonexistent jobs is futile and have dropped out of statistics altogether. Millions of discouraged people aren't being counted and are simply disappearing from official U.S. unemployment statistics. This discrepancy also reflects the fact that many unemployed people are simply hard for a government bureaucracy to track. Unless a person qualifies for unemployment benefits, they are virtually impossible to identify. Even people who once qualified for unemployment fall out of the system once their benefits end.
To be honest, I think the "official" numbers lack credability because they make an estimate for 100+ million using a 60,000 sample size. I still say that the only "official" numbers the government has on unemployment is the people signed up for benefits. People lie in surveys.
Anyway, it's a moot point how exeactly the numbers come about. There are 10 million illegals and about 10 million jobless.
Oh, and a rebuttal to your "add more fuel to the fire" link. Sure, you rescue the person who fell in the well. And then, if he was tresspassing, you arrest him. Just like the burglar that gets caught in the chimney trying to rob the store (a much closer analogy!). The illegals SHOULD NOT GET A JOB IN AMERICA! They shouldn't get paid less, they shouldn't get paid the same. They shouldn't get a job at all. Anyone here legally can compete for jobs. Those here illegally cannot. How can anyone disagree?
BTW, I knew "racism" would come up. mexicans are WHITE. There are 3 races, white, negroid, and asian. Latinos, Arabs, and the rest of the caucasians are white. You can't be racist against your own race.
Quote from: joerockerWait a minute kerry and cernuos... Those numbers were the cost to Americans for just the ILLEGALS meaning that per capita the services that ILLEGALS use is $32+. And don't forget for a family of 4 that would be about $130 a year JUST FOR ILLEGALS! Yes, it's too much.
That's fine. I didn't say either way; didn't I say "you decide"? That kind of money will affect different people in different ways. But I still think you're neglecting to add back in ANY benefit that derives from the work the illegals do.
Quote from: joerockerAnyone here legally can compete for jobs. Those here illegally cannot. How can anyone disagree?
I don't disagree at all. That makes perfect sense to me.
Now ... how and why did it start happening, and why does it
keep happening, and how are you
realistically going to put a stop to it? Or is this just stirring the pot for stirring-the-pot's sake? Not only are you going to ship illegals out (HOW? And costing how much to the same taxpayers?) but you're going to ... force native slackers to work at menial jobs? And all with no ill effects on the economy or society?
Good luck.... :dunno:
I don't think that absolutely nothing can be done, but blanket assumptions (about how much or how little a given illegal gives or takes, and whether they're all dishonest/lazy, etc) and blanket policy statements (track 'em all down and ship 'em all out!) seem far too simplistic to me.
Maybe we could legalize the hard-working illegals and ship out the native slackers. Yeah, that's the ticket! :roll:
Kerry, excellent idea; we can take anyone who is needing help, put 'em on a train an' let it slide off into the sea. Oh, darn it, that idea was already proposed and tried wasn't it? I think his name was Adolf something or other. :roll:
First of all... **I am not illegal to stay here.** ;)
My job, working at an immigration law office, yes, I am helping many illegal aliens. I need them to make my living! hehehe
But...
Personally, I don't like a goverment give illegal aliens a driver license or any benefit. First time I came here as a student with a student visa. I must pay my school tuition triple+ more than Americans. Since I graduated, luckily, my boss hired me, but it wasn't easy to get a visa. Many foreigners try HARD to get a visa or to be a permanent residence.
So... if illegal aliens get same treatment like us, it isn't fair!
:nono:
~*Brat*~
yeah, that link i posted had a lot of crap in it. but he did make one good point. people are hiring them. you can't blame immigrants for wanting a job. you can't even really blame them for being willing to do it for less pay. you CAN however, blame the people that are hiring them. but in all honesty, this is a capitalist society, and if you can produce a product for less and increase your profit margins, you're going to do it.
here's what i've learned about the US government. they like to address the symptoms rather than the cause. take, for instance, terrorism. we will never eliminate terrorism by invading other countries, like it or not. we could spend billions and billions of dollars, but all it takes is one determined person to reek havoc. you must address the cause. why does osama hate us? i don't know. am i suggesting we give them what they want? of course not. what am i suggesting you ask? beats the hell out of me, i'm just trying to make a point. and the point is this...
why are some immigrants willing to work for pennies on the dollar? why will educated programmers in india work for 1/10th of my salary. the reason is the standard of living in those countries is so low, that 1/10th of my salary in india goes a long way. it's all about globalization. minimum wages, import tariffs, etc., etc. are all measures to keep the standard of living artificially high in a competitive global market.
tell me what you think of minimum wage laws.
Quote from: cernunosKerry, excellent idea; we can take anyone who is needing help, put 'em on a train an' let it slide off into the sea. Oh, darn it, that idea was already proposed and tried wasn't it? I think his name was Adolf something or other. :roll:
Exactly what I was getting at. It all sounds too cut-and-dried and indiscriminate to me....
PS - Well put,
jiggersplat!
PPS - Speaking of slacking natives and inflated salaries ... I need to get some work done today. :oops:
kerry,
It started and keeps happening because people usually only look at their own life. Their own affairs, and the short term. Small business owners who are the majority of the employers of illegals only see how much more they're making at the end of the month. If I hire someone for half price I can make more profit. More profit, that is what it's all about. That is the ONLY benefit to having an illegal working in this country. A business making a bigger profit for themselves. But, the cost to society in LETTING people be lazy and in tax money paid for illegals services is much greater than the increased profit that this company makes.
I don't understand "the social impact" of MAKING people work. It's what they should be doing anyway. If you can, you do something. There are deaf and blind people working. What kind of disability prevents someone from doing ANYTHING? As I said, half the welfare mothers should work and the other half watch all the kids. You see the problem is we're too soft here in the U.S. The first "slacker" that starved to death because of his/her own stupidity and refusal to be productive would cause the liberals (the ones who really want a socialist system) to cry foul and it would all end. How do you MAKE people work? You cut them off from the free aid trough. BUT, you must be willing to stick to your guns. At home they call it "tough love" where you don't enable poor habits by bailing them out every time they make a mistake. I think the "social impact" of allowing people to live off the taxpayers and not HAVE to do a thing is far worse. Where am I wrong?
These are all tangents of the real question. Why are there illegals working in this country taking jobs from Americans. Why are they here period.
And yes, the problem with enforcement is cost. It's not worth enforcing for a $5 an hour job. Now anyway. Make it a BIG fine and that would change.
These illegals are affecting people who WANT to work. High school kids can't get part time jobs in places overrun by illegals. The unskilled who want to work can't find jobs in areas with a lot of illegals.
Again, if we the people, could get the power back that we've lost over the years and demand that illegals be sent back, the $100,000 per illegal fine to those who hire them, would pay for everything.
Why would you just give up and let people wander into you country? It's like the "your yard" analogy I used earlier... You wouldn't stand for squatters in your backyard but you give up on squatters in your country?!? Is it because the numbers are so big? Because they're not big enough? 10 million too many? Too little? What happens when it's 50 million? How about other things that seem impossible to manage but should be. Like I said before, every man woman and childs part of the federal debt is now $25,000 is that enought to worry about, to do something about? Or is it already "too much to do anything about"? Or not quite high enough to worry about. What about social security? We talked about that already, it's a crisis. Illegals are too...
As I had stated before, when you start receiving welfare, food-stamp, or whatever benefits, you can only draw for so long. If you read up on the guidelines of welfare you find that families can draw for a maximum of 5 years. Plus, they must provide proof of being turned down for work and demonstrate progress towards gaining skills for work before the 5 year term runs out. Also, there are strict guidelines for getting welfare...you can't just go into an office and say "well, I can't find a job so how 'bout some assistance?"
As far as disability; first, you cannot draw disability unless you have paid a certain amount into the system for the past ten years. No if's and's or but's...if you didn't pay into, you don't get any out of, the system. Second, if you are under the age of 50 it is quite unlikely that you will draw disability because the guidelines are very strict as to who can and who can't draw. In fact, if it is determined that you can find some suitable work earning at least 700$ a month you cannot draw disability. It is extremely difficult to become eligible for disability and generally takes around 3 years before you even get approved. I have an uncle who became blind at the age of around 55 and he is now on disability...it took him two years to get approved. And yeh, some people who are blind hold down good jobs or just make a living doing something. But what do you do with an individual who has done physical labor all their life and then goes blind, crippled, etc? I also have a good friend who developed a brain tumor which is causing partial blindness and blistering headaches, not to mention the disfigurement and partial paralysis he has developed...he has yet to get any disability. But he worked every year since he was 18 at a full-time job. He is now 46.
Any time you have a Government assistance program you are going to have some individuals who somehow beat the system. This doesn't mean you tear down the system because of it. The number who deceive the system are miniscule in comparison to those individuals who are indeed in need.
C.......
Why haven't we heard from Ed in Az???? That's the post I've been waiting to read on this thread!
I'll tell ya where Ed is...he's probably out ridin' that beautiful new Sportster. Gotta get them break-in miles in ya know. (envy envy) Love the GS500 and I love this forum.
C.......
Where did you get your information? Children are eligible for SS disability benefits. People over 18 and under 24 only need to have worked enough for 4 credits (VERY part time) to qualify. Follow this link: http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php?p_sid=wxRiDRzh&p_lva=1139&p_li=&p_page=1&p_cat_lvl1=&p_cat_lvl2=&p_search_text=disability+benefits&p_new_search=1&p_search_type=search_nl There are answers to a lot of questions there.
I'm trying to tell you that it is EASY to get free money in this country if you don't want to work. Get a "disability lawyer" and 80% are approved. Tell your friend. If I didn't have morals I'd sign up too.
Nobody dies in the street because they refuse to work in America! Nobody. And there are a LOT of people who don't work.
You can't argue that...
Lawyers do not obtain disability for you. Lawyers do nothing but get all the info together from your doctors, etc. Also, just because a doctor says you cannot work does not get you disability. You also have to see government doctors. So, whether you have morals or not is not the question, it is whether all the doctors you see have morals you see? Nice to see you can go to a site and read. Now get out there amongst the people and see. I didn't go look up a bunch of stuff on the net to "prove a point". I've been through this with my uncle and my friend both. It is no cake-walk...no matter what you have read. I also have an aquaintance who is a judge for disability. He says that the Clinton administration changed a lot of the wording and stiffened requirements such that now it is virtually impossible to meet the disability requirements unless over 50 years of age. And from what I have personally seen, with mine own eye-balls, that appears to be true. But I still love the GS and the twin forum.
C.......
Getting touchy are we? You were wrong. Earlier I was too and I admitted it.
I'm done with this... It was about why illegals are bad for our country and it's been twisted into "it's impossible to get SSI disability".
Oh, and a good lawyer (as much as I despise them) CAN do wonders if you can afford them.
You know who is also affected ... like on both sides by illegal immigration ...
Legal Immigrants ... Most people assume they also are illegal, and they get culture backlash ... Nothing to add than what's been said ... heck i didn't even read much of it.
Cool.
Srinath.
:thumb:
that reminds me this question I always ask to those claiming to be pro-legal immigrants...
on the streets, how can you tell a legal latin american from an illegal one?
short answer: you can't :icon_mrgreen: so you treat them all the same, as illegals (lmao) :laugh:
i'm immigrant
Holy thread necrophilia Batman!
kill them all
The thread necrophiliacs?
x
sucker ;)
i hate em
not that anyone cares what I think...or that I really care what any of you think...but, personally, I like my local illegal immigrants. They work like real men...for the work's worth. They're honest, they're friendly, they feed me, they take care of their shaZam!, they're happy to be here every day they're here. The "born here's" in my area are all asshat dickwads who'd steal the shirt off you're back given a fraction of a chance...they all think they're thugs and pimps and they have no respect for anything...at all.
Good example...my neighbor (we'll call him Jaun) is from Mexico City and never gained legal status, but his daughter (we'll call her Jill) was born here (I think that mandates legal status but hell if I know). Her boyfriend (we'll call him cockhead) was born here. When Jaun comes to my house...or anyone's house...he pulls into the drive, gets out of the car, walks to the door, knocks lightly or rings the bell, and waits patiently. When Cockhead comes to get Jill he pulls into the drive and starts laying on the f%$king horn until Jill comes out. Jill thinks this is appropriate behavior and that Jaun is a faggot.
I rest my case.
This is my first post in this forum. I've been lurking for a while (a month or so), and wasn't planning on posting anything until I actually buy my GS500F, which will be happening next year in April. I couldn't pass up this thread, though. :)
I hope that what I post here does not offend anybody. It is just my point of view on this particular subject. No more, no less.
Illegal immigrants enter the U.S. illegally this week, next week they get caught and deported. Pretty soon, they are back. If they get caught and deported again, they come back again. And so on and so forth.
Direct deportation of illegal immigrants is not and has never been the answer. The illegal immigration issue will never be resolved that way.
If somebody wishes to live and work in the U.S. illegally, I say that the U.S. government should allow them to do so. In fact, I'll even go as far as to say that the U.S. government should actually go out of their way to make sure the illegal immigrants have a nice warm, dry place to live and plenty of work to occupy their time with.
I propose that the U.S. government build a number of very large factory prisons. Yes, factory prisons. Just for the illegal immigrants. Staff these prisons with U.S. citizens as this will help alleviate unemployment.
The first time an illegal immigrant is caught, he or she gets an automatic sentence of 12 months at hard labor. Off to the factory prison he/ she goes. Do not pass begin. Do not collect any money under the table. No court. No judge. Just a one way ticket to your new home and job, courtesy of Uncle Sam.
The second offense is three years. The third and each and every offence thereafter gets five years. These sentences should be mandatory. No need to take the illegal immigrant to court. The law makes the arrest, runs prints, the record comes back and the appropriate sentence is automatically put into effect.
As to what the illegal immigrants do at the factory prison, well, that one is real simple. They manufacture goods for both the domestic and foreign markets. In demand, high quality goods.
The work the illegal immigrant does pays for their food, accommodation and any medical treatment they may require. The illegal does not get paid for his or her labors. If they work, they eat well and earn privileges within the prison system. If they don't work, they lay in solitary confinement and eat slop.
Prisoners work 12 hours a day. Not 8 hours. Make them earn their keep.
At the end of whichever sentence they serve for entering the U.S. illegally, the illegal immigrant gets deported back to his or her country of origin with the princely sum of $100.00 in their pocket.
If it is the illegal immigrant's first offense, they will be handed an application packet for a green card, which they can fill out and hand to the prison authorities for submission to the U.S.C.I.S. Whether or not the application is approved will be up to the U.S.C.I.S. This will be part of the prison reward system, and will show the illegal immigrant that it is possible to do things the right way.
The first offenders who do actually get their green card applications approved must first complete their sentences before they are released into society. After all, illegal entry into the U.S. is still breaking the law.
If the illegal immigrant is a multiple offender, they lose the privilege of being able to apply for a green card permanently.
Not only will the immigration prisons become self-sustaining, but they will eventually be able contribute to the Federal budget.
Catch and release does not work and is a huge waste of time and resources. The scheme I've outlined here might work. Then again, it might not.
x
Oh, and how have I offended you, Tad? And just what would I be searching for exactly? Immigration related articles?
Well, guess what, I'm fairly aware of what goes on in the immigration world as it relates to the U.S. I've been running the U.S.C.I.S green card gauntlet for the past seven years. Yes, I am a legal immigrant.
I might add that most of the employees of the U.S.C.I.S. come across as being on the same intellectual level as somebody who types in caps and loves saying "SEARCH NOOB!".
Quote from: sinner on September 21, 2006, 02:11:00 AM
Oh, and how have I offended you, Tad? And just what would I be searching for exactly? Immigration related articles?
Well, guess what, I'm fairly aware of what goes on in the immigration world as it relates to the U.S. I've been running the U.S.C.I.S green card gauntlet for the past seven years. Yes, I am a legal immigrant.
I might add that most of the employees of the U.S.C.I.S. come across as being on the same intellectual level as somebody who types in caps and loves saying "SEARCH NOOB!".
That's just Eric, he was joking. Don't get too flustered.
As to your idea, it actually sounds fairly intriguing. The cafeteria food could be equivalent to school cafeteria food (which isn't really all that bad), accomodations could be something equivalent to a dorm room: two beds, a sink, maybe a bookshelf, and a toilet with a curtain around it.
Unfortunately I think there are a few snags in your idea that would have to be resolved. I think by international customs we are required to send the alien back to his/her country as their government would probably be pretty pissed if we imprisoned one of their citizens without so much as a trial. For example, here in Texas we have a lot of Mexican immigrants. If we could get the Mexican government to cooperate with us on this effort a lot of political BS would be smoothed out much faster.
Alpha, believe me, I'm not at all flustered by what Tad said. I have a thick skin, and I can take the ribbing that usually goes on here. Like I mentioned, I've been lurking on this board for a while now, and I've gotten used to the way Tad posts when he's feeling a little frisky. Actually, I find most of what he says informative. My reply to his post was just to rag on him and let him know that he has a live one here. :)
As to the food and such, I was thinking that such things could be arranged on a tiered structure. Kind of a reward system if you will. The prisoners come in and start out as, say, a "D Group" prisoner. D Group being at the bottom of the food chain. As a D Group prisoner, they live in dorms of about thirty prisoners or so, every couple of months they see a review board who will promote them to the next group level if they have pulled their weight and behaved themselves. With each group promotion they get, things improve a little for them. More privileges, slightly better food. If and when they make A Group, they get their own little single cell with its own toilet, wash basin, desk and chair, a communal TV room, maybe a pool room and really good food. Of course, they have to actually earn each promotion. Promotions won't be handed out just because they behaved themselves for a certain period of time. This will give them incentives and teach them the value of working hard and going by the book instead of breaking the rules and expecting everything to just be handed to them.
As to the International community and what they think, well, it's like this. No government will interfere with the domestic laws of another country as it pertains to the detention of illegal immigrants and those who break the "host country's" laws. When I lived in South Africa (About 28 years from age 6 onward. I'm Scottish by birth. Yes, I'll admit it, I've even worn a kilt on occasion), I had a number of friends/ acquaintances who worked in the judicial system as prison guards, police, public prosecutors (the equivalent here in the States is district attorney), and magistrates (no judges in South Africa, except in the supreme courts).
I also had a number of acquaintances (not friends, only and definitely acquataintances. one had to follow a certain protocol when dealing with consular staff. the class system, you know :) ) who worked in the British Consulate General in Pretoria. Naturally, I got to hear all the stoies about prisoners who were on the deportation roles for whatever crimes they had committed, etc. All of the people in the categories mentioned above, especially the Vice Consoles were of the opinion that if any person from the U.K. was to break the law abroad, they would then have to face the consequences of their actions and complete their sentences with no assistance from their governments with regards to sentence reduction, etc. Political prisoners, on the other hand, were an entirely different story.
I believe that my idea has merit and that the U.S. government could quite easily institute such a plan. God alone knows that they waste enough money elsewhere that they could use to impliment this. Hell, they could even turn it over to the private sector for implimentation and just supervise the whole thing.
I honestly don't see my proposal as being too far-fetched at all.
I hear people all the time talking about "what this nation was founded on", blah, blah, blah. Too few have any idea. Don't you remember School House Rock? America is the Great Melting Pot, or did you forget. My father's great, great grandfather came here in 1871. I suspect that unless you are native american that your forefathers did too.
So what was this nation "founded on"? Doesn't anyone remember the Alien and Sedition Acts? They were a slap on the wrist compared to what some of you propose and the founding fathers of THIS country decided they were to strict and repealed them. But, if you claim to know more than Thomas Jefferson, by all means. . . build your Wall.
Quote from: Jake D on September 21, 2006, 07:52:15 AM
I hear people all the time talking about "what this nation was founded on", blah, blah, blah. Too few have any idea. Don't you remember School House Rock? America is the Great Melting Pot, or did you forget. My father's great, great grandfather came here in 1871. I suspect that unless you are native american that your forefathers did too.
So what was this nation "founded on"? Doesn't anyone remember the Alien and Sedition Acts? They were a slap on the wrist compared to what some of you propose and the founding fathers of THIS country decided they were to strict and repealed them. But, if you claim to know more than Thomas Jefferson, by all means. . . build your Wall.
A summary for those that don't know about the Alien And Sedition Acts of 1798: http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/sedition/
Jake - those laws were aimed at preventing opposition to the government. sinner's idea is not nearly as strict as those are and is, I think, well within the confines of the law. These immigrants are here illegally, therefore they are breaking the law. Typically when someone breaks the law they are either fined or sent to prison. This isn't restricting freedom of press, as the Sedition Act did, nor is it changing the laws about how long one must reside in the US on green card status, as the Naturalization Act did. It is simply providing a creative (yet not unjust or cruel) punishment for those that have broken the law.
Most of the legal immigrants I know, talked to, and have worked with, are all very hard working people. However, just because someone hard working doesn't make him above the law in being granted legal residency in the US.
Were to start on this one? :dunno_white: They are here illegally, so from the start these are not the type of people who would be welcome in any Country. Americans are only welcome in Mexico for our money, sure they treat us very nice at all the big vacation spots because we bring the almighty dollar, can we move to Mexico and buy land, or get a job, or start a business, no way at all for the average American. What would happen to us if we crossed the border into Mexico illegally and started protesting in their major cities? :2guns:
I know Mexico's F-ed up, and that's one of the reasons they want to come here, and I have no hatred toward anyone who's come's to America the right way. Heck we are the "melting pot" any one's welcome to try and get in. The great majority of our roots, and us immigrated and came from some other Country, and not just from England, but we've all come to speak English and follow a system. Mexican Immigrants don't really want to do this, so now we broadcast TV channels with a second audio in Mexican, and there's a few strictly Mexican channels, and now in the area that I live they have there own Radio station, more and more items at store's are muti-labeled in both English and Mexican. What about my heritage? I'm a Euro-mutt who's mostly Italian, where's my radio channel, where's my TV channel, where's my Italian Gatorade flavors, where are everyone else's. It's no wonder that so many people want to come here illegally, it seems now they have it better than all of us who were born here or the ones who worked very hard to be here and earned their right to call themselves an American, and its no wonder why a lot of us hate whats been going on for too long. And if you really believe that its OK to under pay these people for doing jobs that Americans supposably don't want to do, well things do balance out, or we find more intuitive ways, or you probably don't believe in things like equality, you know a little Liberty and Justice for all, something that a lot of Americans through out the years have fought for, I often think about how many people gave their lives for what I have today, including numerous family and friends I knew or never got to know, this Country was founded by people who wanted to better themselves, and believed in progress, sure sometimes we've gone the wrong way about doing things, but we've come a very long way in really a short amount of time since Christopher got lost on his way to India. I know we still have a ways to go, but I believe were on the right track, or why is it so many other Countries hate us, they will "burn" our flag, but they sure as hell won't "burn" our money. Should we be sorry for all of those in other Countries who are afraid to fight for what they believe like we have, should we be sorry for those who don't want to work hard to better themselves like we have? I'm sorry for us, we'll keep wiping a lot of other Countries Butt's, and let our own get stinky. :mad: Oh yeah what about the increase in crimes committed by illegals, theft, rapes, and murders from people who should not even be here, so it makes it even harder to track them down. And what about things like this, there's a rental house just a few doors down from mine that I swear as about twenty Hispanic people living in a three bedroom home, its great that the property value for my home here near the beach as gone up almost 4x from what the purchase price was way back in 1992(165k), and I've spent a lot of time and $ this summer landscaping and painting for a nice curb appeal, and now three door's down looks like a used car lot, a outdoor laundry mat, and a garbage dump all in one.
I hope this doesnt come out all crazy, I just finished my 55 hour work week, and a bottle of Rum. God bless America! And spell check.
Jake, what Alpha says is the truth of it. Ditto for Yankee. This and any other country has laws for a reason. Immigration laws are no different from any other law. The law is the law. Period! You, yourself, know this to be true.
I myself have lived, legally, in no less than four different countries, America being the fourth. I came here legally with no intentions of staying. I met a wonderful woman who is an American citizen. We decided to get married. I applied for a green card back in November of '99. I went through all the red tape. Hell, I'm still going through all the red tape almost seven years down the line.
I am no different, no better and no worse than any other person on this planet. One thing I do subscribe to is following the law. To the letter if at all possible. After almost seven long years of dealing with the U.S.C.I.S., after almost seven years of uncertainty and frustration with them and the entire immigration law of this country. after paying immigration attorneys thousands of dollars to assist me with my application for permanent residence in this country, that view has not changed.
Do I really want to live in the U.S.? No, not particularly. To me, it is just another country. There is nothing very special about it. There is nothing here that I cannot find in the U.K., of which I am a native. So, why do I stay? Why do I put up with the incompetence of the U.S.C.I.S. staff? Simply because my wife is a U.S. citizen, born and bred. All of her family is here. I love her dearly and would lay down my life for her without hesitation.
I came here from the U.K. I walked away from an established life there. I gave up my fully furnished apartment, my job, which I might add was a good one and I was in line for a promotion just before I made the decision to emmigrate to the U.S. I walked away from my close contact with my own family and friends there, and I did so at a not inconsiderable financial cost to myself.
Not everybody is in my exact situation. This goes with out saying. Not everybody is as fortunate as I am. I do not begrudge any person the opportunity to improve their lot in life by emmigrating to another country, especially one as culturally rich and diverse as the United States of America. Especially not a country as rich in opportunity as the United States of America. What I do expect from each and every person who wants to make the trip, who wants to improve their circumstances and the circumstances of their family, is to do it the right way. Obey the laws of the land. Do not break those laws, and by doing so, disadvantage other people who are equally as willing as they are to work hard to improve their lives. This country was built on immigrants. This country would not be what it is without them. Nobody is striving to stop immigration at all. People are only trying to stop illegal immigration.
This is an unrealistic expectation. I realize that, but right is right, and wrong doers of any and all stripes should be made to face the full penalties that the law provides for.
I'll climb down from my soap box now.