Best thing to do would be to utilize a rev-matching downshift and brake at the same time. This way you are using engine compression to slow down, and not your clutch pad. How to rev-match:
- clutch in
- give the throttle a blip to bring your revs up
- downshift at the same time
- clutch fully out, and hopefully you will have matched revs in the lower gear so the gear engages without excessive jerkiness
Then apply your brakes while using the natural tendency for the high revving lower gear to slow down at the same time.
Quote from: Lee from TorontoBest thing to do would be to utilize a rev-matching downshift and brake at the same time. This way you are using engine compression to slow down, and not your clutch pad. How to rev-match:
- clutch in
- give the throttle a blip to bring your revs up
- downshift at the same time
- clutch fully out, and hopefully you will have matched revs in the lower gear so the gear engages without excessive jerkiness
Then apply your brakes while using the natural tendency for the high revving lower gear to slow down at the same time.
I apply brake before I let the clutch out when downshifting. Typically, I match rpm's to 4000rpm, which is usually when I down shift (at 4000rpm).
I've been engine braking for 2.5 years now, and I've put 24,000 miles on my bike that way (its now at 34,000 miles) and I've gone through 2 chains, and a front and back set of pads. So you'll be ok, just do what your comfortable with.
Engine braking is a bad habit to get into.
Quote from: dgyverEngine braking is a bad habit to get into.
Yea especially if you buy a 2 stroke later ...
Cool.
Srinath.
I prefer to use brake pads rather than drive train for rear wheel braking. I think I can control it better and with more sensitivity as to what is happening back there.. :cheers:
I use engine braking when I need to stop quickly...to me it feels like I can stop quicker and more solidly than when I use my brakes.
Which do u think is cheeper to replace, brake pads or motor parts.
now which do u think u should use to stop.
Quote from: ericjmenseWhich do u think is cheeper to replace, brake pads or motor parts.
now which do u think u should use to stop.
Are you mechanically inclined?
I don't know your knowledge of bikes and such, but i wouldnt post like that unless youve at least taken apart a gs after 14000 hard miles and it still has a good clutch.
Downshifting is fine, and there is no adverse affects if done properly.
Clutch would be affected SLIGHTLY..and even so, a clutch costs as much as front and rear brakes(combined) and its easy as pie to replace.
If you ever own/ride a bigger displacement bike than the GS you will find out the hard way why engine braking is a bad habit. If you ever ride aggressively all you will end up doing is locking up the rear wheel and having it fish tail. Sometime is fun to do but a little spooky the first few times. Also, it will upset the geometry of the suspension when going into a turn. There is a reason slipper clutches are a lot of the bigger bikes, especially the v-twins. Controlling speed via the brakes is the best way to slow down.
SO what you are guys are saying is for control as well as stability using engine braking is a bad Idea.
While physical abuse to the bike is pretty minimal, i mean if you use engine braking it is the same as taking off from a stop light, its just "reverse wear"
the chain will express a tensile force, and the clutch will have to be enganged and disengaged, so basically you are putting double duty on both those parts, both for acceleration and deceeleration.
Wow, I am pretty stupid to have been using engine braking, didn't really think about it.
Umm.. maybe on the bigger 100+ hp bikes...but thats for reasons you just discussed that dont apply to the gs dgyver..
Downshifting is a normal part of riding a motorcycle or driving a standard car. How much thought went into this topic? :roll: Yikes.
Just do it. Or Dont. But five different opinions from a forum will just confuse you on it.
There is a difference in down shifting and engine braking. I said it is a bad habit to get into. Maybe for some that never outgrow the GS, this will not be a problem. But as the GS is a learning platform for most with bigger bikes in the future, engine braking now will only create problems in the future.
According to the MSF Basic Rider Course Handbook:
Under the heading "Stopping":
"Both brakes should be applied at the same time when stopping. Even though the full braking potential of each wheel may not be required for normal, planned stops, it is important to develop the habit of using both brakes so that your reflexes will be ready to respond quickly and properly when an emergency situation occurs."
There is no mention of using engine braking to perform this.
Under the heading "Shifting'"
"You must change gears to match engine speed with road speed."
This section goes on to explain how to upshift and downshift.
At the bottom of the section it explains: "Shifting to a lower gear causes an effect similar to using the brakes. This is known as engine braking. To use engine braking, shift down............."
This section does not explain when engine breaking should or should not be used.
Maybe the Advanced Rider Course will cover use of engine braking.
I'll find out this May when I take it. :cheers:
I think it's important to differentiate between engine-braking and downshift braking......here's why....
Engine Braking - using the natural force of the engine to slow down the vehicle, staying in the same gear as one decelerates
Downshift-Braking[/u] - similar effect using the braking force of the engine, but the operator attempts to downshift, matching engine speeds (rear wheel speed) to road speed
I think engine braking is appropriate when approaching a stop-light or stop sign (or other places where the bike will come to a complete stop)
I think downshift braking is better for slowwing down in an effort to allow more time for a situation ahead of the rider to develop.....situations like pacing a light to turn green, various merges or lane changes (like construction areas), etc...this is probably more common for slowing down, not necessarily stopping.....
the braking method that I think is absolute LEAST SAFE is when a rider engages the clutch and then brakes....at that point the rider has ZERO control of the rear wheel and engine.....
...JMO....
I just finished this book, which I think is excellent.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1893618072/qid=1110503715/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/104-7240677-1678302
The author mentions using the front brake at the same time as downshifting while blipping your engine to match revs before entering corners to enhance stability, etc of your bike.
Anyhow, if you go by this book, downshifting to help slow the bike down is a good technic.
Since reading this I have been practicing and as some pointed out it can be dangerous if you don't match engine speed, however, when I do it correct the bike is as stable as can be. I expect practice will make perfect...
I use engine braking all the time in conjunction with both brakes.
This give you maximum control and stopping power.
In the rain I use the engine braking as much as possible. It's better than using the brakes.
Besides if you just use the brakes it sort of takes half the fun away from riding the bikes.
I did the same with my cars that had standard transimissions.
Never had any problems with the gear boxes of clutches.
When i took the Motorcycle training course which is mandatory in Manitoba to get your motorcycle licence, they said when coming to a stop light to always downshift/engine break when coming to a stop because you never know if your going to need power to get out of a bad situation. I always downshift/engine break with my F model. But you do gotta learn how to do it properly.
Nothing is sexier than a few perfectly timed downshifts to a girl walking by. 8)
I use all three brakes all the time, front, rear, and engine; mostly, but not always, all three together. The bike should be in a gear that will permit some acceleration all the time with the clutch engaged all the time till you come to a stop. Down shift as you slow, don't wait till almost stopped and downshift all at once.
When riding at a normal pace, I tend to brake before the corner MSF style and accelerate thru the turn. When pushing hard, I tend to trail brake into corners using all three brakes. I do a lot of braking in the corners using the rear brake only to trim speed, especially in the blind corners that I tend to enter too fast. :lol: A little rear brake in corners tends to settle the bike much the same as accelerating in corners does.
Shifting quickly should be done all the time, keeps the bike in gear all the time. Close and open your left hand as fast as you can. That's how fast you should be shifting and working the throttle while shifting. All comes naturally as the miles rack up.
I'm not riding a 100 HP sportbike or a big twin cruiser, I'm riding a GS500. If I start riding something else, much of this will be adjusted accordingly. I recall my braking patterns changed significally when I changed from bias ply to radial tires about 3 years ago. I've got about 100k miles on my GS500s now, about half on bias and half on radial tires.
Before the GS500s, I put about 225k miles on 4 Hondas including a CB650SC and a CB750K and all had rather average rear drum brakes. I remember riding those bikes using mostly the front brakes and not much rear. I can ride my GS500s much quicker than I rode those Hondas. Don't worry about future bikes, ride the bike you're on today and learn to ride it as well as you can. I have slowed down a bit though in the past year or so since I'm now a couple years into my 8th decade.
Jack is the man :thumb:
QuoteIf you ever ride aggressively all you will end up doing is locking up the rear wheel and having it fish tail
ok large displacement twins act diff then 4cyl of same cc's, engine braking on each is very different. try push starting the gs500, then push my xj650, the 650 is easier to start, its also much smoother on engine braking and doesnt "brake" as hard as the gs500. ive ridden a few large cc bikes and its just a matter of getting used to it, and when to do it, how hard to do it. surfaces and tires also add to the equation. the idea of ANY braking is to be smooth with it, matching revs on downshift and allowing the engine to help slow you down IS NOT BAD NOR DANGEROUS if done with some reasonable judgment and smoothness. cruising along at 50mph heading for 30mph turn, dropping 3 gears and dumping clutch without matching revs to make it smooth will cause the rear wheel to LURCH (not lockup) this results in a skid even though the wheel is still turning. this can cause the Fishtail or slide out of rear wheel. the key thing with riding bikes be it street or racetrack is smoothness of operation.
Any car that I've ever had I've always used both engine braking and regular braking. I've always felt more in control of the vehicle when using this method, plus I feel it leads to faster stopping times when done correctly. This is the number one reason that I hate automatics, in fact they scare the crap out of me. I used to be a delivery driver and drove around a fully loaded automatic cargo van every day. I got very used to driving that thing but always felt that big/heavy truck and automatic transmission was a recipe for disaster. I've used engine braking since day one of owning my bike, with nary a problem. Now, if you're not smooth and are dumping the clutch at 10,000 RPM while downshifting I can forsee a problem. Otherwise, it's no problem at all. My own view is that it's actually safer and a good technique to use. The one danger is if you engine brake without regular braking as well, because the moronic cages behind you might not realize you're slowing down and run into you. I know people will disagree with me but I stand by my opinion.
By the way, my car has 210,000 miles on the ORIGINAL clutch and transmission. Both still work just fine and dandy too. The argument that you will destroy your transmission or clutch seems bogus to me. Does engine braking put a slight more amount of stress on the engine/clutch/transmission? Probably, but if done right it's negligable and isn't something to worry about. Just do what you're comfortable with and don't worry about the damage to your bike.
nathanael
Amen!
No, no it's not a religious reference don't take me away. :lol:
Quote from: gsJackI use all three brakes all the time, front, rear, and engine; mostly, but not always, all three together. The bike should be in a gear that will permit some acceleration all the time with the clutch engaged all the time till you come to a stop. Down shift as you slow, don't wait till almost stopped and downshift all at once.
When riding at a normal pace, I tend to brake before the corner MSF style and accelerate thru the turn. When pushing hard, I tend to trail brake into corners using all three brakes. I do a lot of braking in the corners using the rear brake only to trim speed, especially in the blind corners that I tend to enter too fast. :lol: A little rear brake in corners tends to settle the bike much the same as accelerating in corners does.
Shifting quickly should be done all the time, keeps the bike in gear all the time. Close and open your left hand as fast as you can. That's how fast you should be shifting and working the throttle while shifting. All comes naturally as the miles rack up.
I'm not riding a 100 HP sportbike or a big twin cruiser, I'm riding a GS500. If I start riding something else, much of this will be adjusted accordingly. I recall my braking patterns changed significally when I changed from bias ply to radial tires about 3 years ago. I've got about 100k miles on my GS500s now, about half on bias and half on radial tires.
Before the GS500s, I put about 225k miles on 4 Hondas including a CB650SC and a CB750K and all had rather average rear drum brakes. I remember riding those bikes using mostly the front brakes and not much rear. I can ride my GS500s much quicker than I rode those Hondas. Don't worry about future bikes, ride the bike you're on today and learn to ride it as well as you can. I have slowed down a bit though in the past year or so since I'm now a couple years into my 8th decade.
I'll have to agree with engine braking. I mean you do it all the time. Every time you let off the throttle it begins braking. Doesn't everybody anticipate a stop and begin to slow (engine brake) before applying the brakes? And don't we all downshift while we're stopping if only to make it MUCH easier to find neutral? Just don't get extreme with it and have it skid or beat on the clutch with too much slippage. Because (in cars anyway) brakes are a lot cheaper than clutches. Didn't someone say that our bike clutches are cheap and easy to replace?
I wont apologize for saying AMEN 8)
Yes, the clutches are relatively cheap and very easy to swap. Takes maybe an hour at most. Its kinda fun actually :dunno:
After 26 years on a GS400, and one year on the 500, I usually leave the bike in gear, clutch engaged, and use the brakes on both wheels. Gear-shifting happens if I need a lower gear after I've finished slowing down. When I get close to stopping or need to accelerate, then I shift to the gear I need or shift on down to neutral keeping the clutch disengaged until I need it or I'm in neutral. This way, the brakes are controlling the stopping, and the engine, clutch, clutch cable, and transmission are all resting peacefully until they're needed.
Going downhill is a little different. Sometimes I shift to a lower gear and let the engine help the brakes, if it's real curvy. The steeper the hill, the more you might need some engine help-but that's a judgement call. If things get loose as in gravel or dirt, pretend you're riding on ice. Don't do anything that would disrupt the balance between front and rear wheel grip.
my choice usually depends on what situation i'm in.
if i see some congestion up ahead and want to slow down a bit, i engine brake.
if i need to slow down quickly and/or stop, it's disk brakes, without a doubt. of course, as they taught us in the MSF course, while i'm braking with my disk brakes, i keep downshifting so that as i'm slowing down, i'm always "in the right gear". because of this, there is a bit of an engine-brake component as well.