hey i understand some say leave the fed govt out of it. but we dont know what her wishes were. and now her husband litlerally wants to starve her to death, i think there is a more humane way of doing this, now she got no food no water, i know she cant communicate verbally, but damn, here in a few days shes gonna start goin thru hell. there are more humane ways of doin this. :x , like about 600 units of insulin, to a non-diabetic it is a painless coma-death scenario, sorry just had to vent. :dunno:
welp, its touchy, Husband says let her go, momma says no, now if im not mistaken, Legaly Hubby got the say so. i think too many cling to "The Right to life" when should be more concerned with what the "Quality of life" is going to be.
Sit back and look at your life with Your Eyes in a 3rd person veiw. we not talking a mild stroke, or a car wreck that broke your body and is 50/50 you will be somthing like your old self. Would any of you want to have your diapers changed daily, and be tended too for every thing you need done? Not being able to comunicate in any way with the ones you love. not being able to understand what they are saying.
I can learn to cope with losing hands, or the ability to walk, or speak, i could probly learn to cope with lose of sight and hearing. CAN you have quality of life with these disabilities? yes, Different but yes.
EVEN if you could Understand everything you hear, but the rest of your body fails to work as you know it should, No voice, no controled movement beyond a smile or blink of eyes. could you suddenly stand to be locked up withyour self unable to comunicate with your loved ones?
I cant think of anything More Torturous then being locked into my own mind. not able to reach out any further then just behind my own eyes.
Or worse, your squash got scrambled and now your back to 7months old mentaly and your not going to get any better
IS THIS QUALITY OF LIFE? if you belive so, you amaze and frighten me.
No, i cant say i wouldnt strugle or rip myself to shreds with making that call for my parents,wife or child. what parent wants to see thier child die?
none that i know of. but if a loved one is as i discribed, then i would be the monster or the selfish one to keep them like that, it would have to be the most unforgivable hurt i could do to someone/
Everyone who knows me worth a toot knows i would rather passaway then be alump of flesh needing constant tending. and If i had wits still and nothing else, i would go mad with greif and hatred for being kept alive like that.
I have 2 words people.. LIVING WILL Don't let this happen to you.
I can't say any more than Blueknyt... Living is NOT just breathing.
i'm with joerocker and bluekynt, let her go. what is this mom clinging to anyways? her daughter's been like this for what, 12 years? common sense tells us she's not going to get better. this mom is thinking only of herself and her needs, not the needs of her daughter who lies in a hospital bed day after day. my girlfriends mom was just laid up in the hospital for 10 days and it drove her crazy! imagine 12 years of that...
how about this story:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3073295
or this one:
http://www.freep.com/news/nw/baby16e_20050316.htm
under the Texas Futile care law, hospitals can decide that care is futile, and to discontinue medical care.
"A patient's inability to pay for medical care combined with a prognosis that renders further care futile are two reasons a hospital might suggest cutting off life support, the chief medical officer at St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital said Monday."
so if you're terminal AND your family can't pay, they can pull the plug.
the sad thing is that, unlike Shiavo, these patients were not brain dead.
now, they might have been suffering. and there is a certain point at which i believe a suffering person should be allowed to die. but in these cases part of the decision seemed to hinge on their ability to pay, which seems a little wrong to me.
i can understand not wanting hopeless cases to become a burden on society, but still, that's pretty cold.
-will
Quote from: yamahonkawazukihey i understand some say leave the fed govt out of it. but we dont know what her wishes were. and now her husband litlerally wants to starve her to death, i think there is a more humane way of doing this, now she got no food no water, i know she cant communicate verbally, but damn, here in a few days shes gonna start goin thru hell. there are more humane ways of doin this. :x , like about 600 units of insulin, to a non-diabetic it is a painless coma-death scenario, sorry just had to vent. :dunno:
you're absolutely right. there are more humane ways to euthanize people. unfortunately, in most places, starving them or suffocating them (by removing respirators) are the only legal ways to kill a patient.
as i understand it, the argument is that by denying food or air, your allowing them to die, whereas administering insulin would be actively killing them.
there's a logic there, but it's ultimately screwed up. i think we need some good laws governing doctor assisted suicide.
-will
starvation is apparently one of the top ranked "Quality of Death"s. So the whole "They're starving her!" argument doesn't hold much weight.
I feel for the husband here. He's dealt with this for 15 years, when it was against her will in the first place. Give the poor guy some closure.
Plus, isn't she unable to feel pain?
Quote from: LauraPlus, isn't she unable to feel pain?
i believe you're right. she's already beyond suffering.
however, they also do this in cases where the person CAN feel pain, simply because it's the only legal way to allow people to die.
starvation may not compare to burning alive, but i'm sure it's less fun than lethal injection or electrocution or even beheading.
first off, most of her brain is liquid. she doesn't have brain damage, she's missing most of her brain. she has no cerebral cortex. the only reason she has any reactions to anything whatsoever is because reflexes are governed by the spinal chord. as for starvation, she's not going to starve. she's going to die of dehydration first. her body will slowly shut down, she'll slip into a coma, and she'll die. she won't feel it, and it's not inhumane. she's not even really human anymore aside from in apperance, so inhumane doesn't even apply.
doesn't anyone else find it odd that the party that stops everyone from having good, affordable health care is doing everything they can to make sure this shell of a woman is kept alive, going so far as to legislate for it, but could give a shaZam! less about the people in our own country dying as a lack of medical care daily? i love the smell of hypocracy in the morning.
one could argue that Tom Delay, by speaking out for the rights of the brain dead, is just looking after his constituency.
BURN!
Zara,
Who are you and why do you so vehemently say things that are not in the least bit accurate?
Her brain isn't liquid. She had a heart attack and was down too long.
Nobody goes without any healthcare in this country. If you can't pay you're not turned out onto the streets. You may not get the same quality as someone with supurb insurance but you're never denied emergency care. It's the law. God, you're so ignorant but always have some smart ass comment.
Go and live in one of those "everyone gets unlimited free medical coverage" countries see what you pay in taxes. How does 70% sound. Want to keep only 30% of your salary? Here you probably PAY 30% in taxes. You live in a great country (at least until the cheap oil runs out) don't rag on it so much.
BTW, hate your picture... Have respect for the position if not the man.
Quote from: joerockerBTW, hate your picture... Have respect for the position if not the man.
i would agree that the office of president deserves some respect, and i would like it if someone would tell W. that.
no one goes without healthcare eh? weird, i must not have seen people freezing on the streets when i was in new york and dying in allies. or the people here in minneapolis dying of aids on the street because they can't afford treatment.
as for not having a liquid brain, well, i'll leave that for you to decide.
Normal Brain:
(http://www.e-radiography.net/ibase5/1_Normal/slides/Brain_normal_brain_1_mri.jpg)
Terry's Brain:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/lepus/CTscan-Schiavo.png)
and for the record, that part in the middle that looks all shaded, that's the no brain zone.
as for my picture, to be fair, it was before he was president.
edit: so maybe you're the one that ought to start saying things that are accurate. you couldn't do it in the ghey marriage thread, and so far you're not doing it here.
Most of her brain is not liquid. Yes, there is atrophy and it has shrunk, it's NOT missing. The way you say it there's just a little nub the rest just dissolved away. Not true. Atrophy.
ohhhh, so you're saying it works? and i suppose i was a bit incorrect in my first statement. you're right, her brain isn't liquid, it has atrophied. however, the space the brain normally takes is now filled with liquid. with a brain that has decreased in size that much, has that much liquid surrounding it, and no viable cerebral cortex, i'd like you to explain to me what type of life this woman might have. you know, cause her brain works. the only part of her brain this is working correctly is the one that marginally keeps her "alive".
and for the record, seeing as terry has a mental condition, and probably just wants the rules changed for her, i don't think she should be allowed to be married anymore. ya know? it just kind of makes me uncomfortable.
I have struggled with my feelings on this subject. She has the right to live, on the other hand if her wishes were to not be kept alive in a veg state then I can see why the husband wants to let her go.
All I can say is I am glad I am not faced with this decision. Anne made it clear that she would not want to be kept alive of she was in the same state as this poor woman. I suggested she get a living will as the same thing could happen to her down the road.
I feel sorry for the husband, he's made out to be some sort of monster by many people. I bet he is struggling with the same issues, but feels he is following her will.
actually the husband is already living with another woman who he has 2 kids with. this happened 15 years ago, i'm pretty sure you can develope some disattachment in that time period. for his life, and especially if it really was her wish, if i were him i'd want her to be unhooked.
Terri's lost her Cerebral Cortex and the cavity filled with spinal fluid.
The cerebral cortex can not be replaced or replenished; it can not
grow back; it can not be transplanted.
Without a cerebral cortex, an individual ceases to be an individual.
There is a total loss of coherency; the individual is rendered to a
vegetated state. There is no chance for any recovery from that state.
Terri is truly in a vegetated state and has been for 13 years.
Terri had been placed on a feeding apparatus due to her inability
to swallow voluntarily. She can not live without that feeding device;
that feeding device in the State of Florida is considered a life support
system, since the individual can not survive without it's usage.
Since Terri can not and never will regain any consciousness to
allow her to ever converse, or have any voluntary movement,
she is considered in a vegetative state.
Terri has been in this vegetative state for 13 years. Removing
her from a life support system is a decision a guardian must decide.
No-one remains on a mechanical life support system indefinitely;
if there is no chance for recovery, no chance for any coherency,
and no chance to ever have the ability to engage a voluntary
movement, then forcing a soul to be contained in a lifeless
shell of a body is more inhuman; more sacrilegious, that to
allow it to pass.
Terri's dead; let her soul rest in peace.
=============================================
the above was a cut and paste from one of many newsblog sites i looked into for more info.
this sposivly happen in 1990 yes? that was 15 years ago. 15!
Once married, health care decisions are no longer up to the parents unless legal Documents are produced and signed by the spose, MOM AND DAD HAVE NO SAY. Doctors and a judge have determined that terri will NOT rehabilitate from her vegatative state ever. After 15 years, i think i would tend to believe this, a fwe grunts and blowing saliva bubbles during the past 15 years Doesnt show improvment to one's condition.
i really have to wonder what kinda love it is to be put a loved one through this for 15 years.from what i have gathered its mostly the "Right to life folks" that are pushing hard and wanting to get involved legaly along with her parrents, most of them calling Mr S. a monster and murderer.
For a book to teach compasion and forgivness, and yet push harder after 15 years of No improvment but to see that her brain is shrivaling up to nothing and say she is responding? who here is the real monster?
15 bloody years? what a living hell if her brain was even 1/2 working in cognitive thought. the grunts and repsonses were probly maddness insuing and what was left of her brain turning primal.
even if i belived at first she could be rehabed, after 2 years of NON coma vegitative state i would have to agree that recovery isnt likly and growing slimer every day. Now tell me, what's thier excuse for the other 13 years of this (and i dont use these words often) Sinfuly UN christianly uncompasionate treatment of a human being not to mention a loved one.
now i cant say the husband was any better by allowing it this long either so ilump his ass in there too.
there isnt anymore i can say, most damn the husband for wanting to end it. i damn him for not doing it at a reasonable time. there is nothing else i can say at this moment.
actually, the husband spent the first few years flying terry to specialists around the country trying everything he can to see if she would be re-coverable. he didn't stop at the first opinion, nor the second or third.
It was only once he was told by pretty much every top expert that there was no chance, that he finally considered and then decided to let her go.
Then steps in Mom and Dad. Mom and Dad decided that their child must live, (irregardless of the fact that Terry had discussed with her husband never wanting to be left on life support) they decided to fight his decision, and for all these years, the husband has been fighting for his wife's right to die JUST AS SHE HAD WISHED.
He has been offered MILLIONS from the parents and supporters of the parents to sign away his guardian rights, or divorce his wife. He has turned all those offers down, and taken many a beating in the press, simply because he wants to respect her wishes. I say that the man truly loved his wife.
And... so what if he found an understanding woman for companionship, if you were to die, (or become the living dead, like terry) would you ask your spouse to go it alone for the rest of their lives? I think those that would say yes are incredibly selfish.
I think Gov. Bush should not have intervened last year once the parents had finally lost their last possible appeal, and likewise the Dept of Children and Families (certainly under the persuasion of Jeb Bush) should just butt out as well.
i heard something about an insurance policy the other day, anyone else heard anything bout that
apparently there is a large ins. amount he will collect. Big deal... he has bankrupted himself for 15 years, and turned down over 10 million dollars, just trying to do the right thing.
the 'pro-LIFE group' waves a stupid ins. policy around and try to use that as "his motive to kill her" how incredibly stupid...
how do we know what her wishes were, there was no living will, but yeah, i cansee all of your points on this :dunno:
no, there is no living will. But apparently the subject came up in a converstaion between terry and her husband long before her heart attack.
I understand that that is not a legal position for him, but as the next of kin, his decisions should be final anyway. just my 2cents
To get other people up to speed... here is a brief overview of the case (a lot of details are left out)
http://channelevents.aol.com/newsflash/redirect/news.html?url=http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0503/timeline.schiavo.case/frameset.exclude.html&w=660&h=430
She's a vegetable. I don't care if her parents AND her husband wanted her to stay hooked up. The whole thing is absolutely disgusting and I can't understand why anyone would want her to stay hooked up like this.
Definitely something to think about. I remember years ago when I had a horrible auto accident where I was ejected from the vehicle and then the car rolled over me. I was in a stryker frame for more than a month till I was stable enough for them to open up my back for access to my spine. I got to where all I wanted to do was sleep because it was driving me crazy what with being unable to move about, having people feed me, wash me etc. I recall thinking that if I were to ever be totally immobilized without the ability to even communicate I would rather be let go. Definitely something to think about...does everyone here have a living will? Because G Bush has decided that in these situations it is better to err on the side of life. Oh well, I love my bike and I love this forum.
C.......
yup its over...
Quoteone could argue that Tom Delay, by speaking out for the rights of the brain dead, is just looking after his constituency.
Man, you cracked me up for a good five minutes with that one! :lol:
Lot of issues here, and a lot of emotion. Can't help that. We are humans and emotions are part of us. We just need to be careful they don't make our decisions for us.
A few things.
Joerocker, I live in a country where everyone gets the health care they need regardless of their ability to pay. Our tax burden, while more than we might like, is nowhere near the 70% you quoted. You really need to get your facts straight ( :lol: ) before leaping in like that.
If you've read "The House of God" you'll have come across the concept of the GOMER/GOMERE. While most people think of this as simply meaning "Get Out of My Emergency Room", the definition is "Someone who has lost that which makes them human". While strictly speaking a human is the combination of mind and body (and spirit if you want to break it down like that), once the mind goes the shell that's left can't identify itself as human so probably isn't. (Yes, I recognise that is an opinion, not an established fact). Many people look at such beings as of no use to society, a financial drain and an emotional burden. I disagree. While I am not in favour of "a beating heart at all costs", and work in a field where our primary aim is to correct the correctable, I think these used-to-be people do serve a function in society. They stimulate debates such as this, to make us examine the issues and come to some (hopefully rational) concensus. They remind us of our own mortality and help us not to waste the life we have because it could all be over in a second. And they provide us with opportunity to exercise our humanity and our compassion.
I just don't think you would ever find a person who would say, "Yes, If I were to ever become totally incapable of taking care of myself I would want others to do it for me for over a decade. Shove a feed tube down my throat, wash me, keep me breathing, and speak to me even if I don;t have any clue what is going on." This woman is at the point of no return mentally, physically, etc. It's just sad that they would make this man deal with all of this instead of letting her rest in peace and allowing all of her loved ones to move on, which by now they deserve to do.
Michael,
First of all, it seems from what I can find that your health system is a lot like ours. Both public and private money paying for the costs. You have medicare for the elderly and it looks like a form of medicaid for the poor. Your country is looking to go "country wide" with public healthcare in 2008. Couldn't find whether that meant "free" for all or just standardized. AND there are plenty saying that the idea WASN'T EVER to have FREE healthcare for everyone. In fact there is a lot of talk about "means testing" the elderly before giving them full medicare coverage.
Medical care costs money... A LOT of money. You CANNOT provide EVERYONE with FREE healthcare without a HUGE tax. There mare MANY european countries with tax rates over 50% and few as high as 70%. Remember, someone has to pay for ALL FREE services. The taxpayers pay. All you're doing is letting the government act as a HUGE insurer and through taxes you "pay" premiums. So, it's really not free is it? All you're doing is providing something free for deadbeats who don't contribute. If you do go "free for all" then your taxes WILL go up or you'll run a huge defecit.
Oh, and when people need the BEST in the latest care and treatment, where do they go? It sure isn't Tasmania.
And the guy talking about all the poor dying/starving in the streets. No. Doesn't happen. A few of the more severely mentally disabled homeless who don't have enough sense to come out of the cold may. Where did you say that was? Minnesota? See, no sense. Homeless and staying in Minnesota? Nuts! There are enough programs available so nobody has to die. Shelters go unfilled because the homeless refure to use them. Did you know that 95% of the homeless are either retarded or crazy? The other 5% are temporary or choose that life. In the days of old they were locked up. But now they have "rights" which means they sleep/pee/deficate in your doorway. Irregardless of "our" rights.
Besides, I agreed in like the second post here that she should be allowed to die in dignity.
It's funny though... The same people who fight so hard (like in the ghey marriage thread) for peoples rights, are the same people who will fight to "kill" a severely disabled woman by starvation or kill a defenseless fetus through abortion. I gues only a select few (minorities and gays) get their rights protected by you?
BTW, before you start screaming, I too believe in euthanizing the terminally ill and aborting the defective and unwanted. I just find it funny how YOU can see it the same way. Don't people who can't communicate have rights? I mean it's just hearsay that she told her husband she wanted to die. And a "survivable" fetus, don't they get any rights? Who get to have rights? When exactly are these rights given?
Quote from: joerockerThe same people who fight so hard (like in the ghey marriage thread) for peoples rights
Like you? You were fighting "so hard" for what you feel is your right to not be offended.
it should also be pointed out that Terry has been kept alive through money from Medicaid and a Malpractice suit.
under proposed tort reform legislation, her family might not have been able to press that lawsuit. there are also republican efforts to cut Medicaid.
so, while the republlicans in congress are willing to use her to distract the public attention away from the various administration media propaganda scandals, the 2nd anniversary of the invasion of Iraq and Tom Delay's perpetual ethics problems, their policies would have bankrupted her family years ago.
hypocrisy is too nice a word.
cheers,
will
That's right. AND, The people voting to "err on the side of life" are also the same people who voted that these medical expenses are not going to be paid for with government money. This woman is being used as an object and an example and not being seen as a person.
I don't feel that she has any rights anymore because she's barely a living human being. That feeding tube is the only thing keeping her alive which makes her completely dependent on it. The only thing I can see that we should all take from this case is to make sure you have a living will.
what rights does a sack of meat really Need honnestly?
first and formost i would say the right to the best diagnostics to make sure the candle went out.
Secondly, the right to some treatments to posibly reverse their current state, and to see If this person is going to have a life WORTH living. say 3 strikes in 3 years, no change or REASONABLE improvment its time to move on.
Thirdly the right to Die with dignity without suffering.
Now, intruth this is my own feelings, but once i cant interact with the ones i care about in a reasonably Human mannor i dont want to be around. No way i could handle being the next chris reeves, or steven Hawkins (sp?)
yeah, im greedy that way. If my mellon is that messed up then mix me a mickey and let me slip off.
Quote from: joerockerMichael,
First of all, it seems from what I can find that your health system is a lot like ours. Both public and private money paying for the costs. You have medicare for the elderly and it looks like a form of medicaid for the poor. Your country is looking to go "country wide" with public healthcare in 2008.
Oh, and when people need the BEST in the latest care and treatment, where do they go? It sure isn't Tasmania.
I don't know what you've been reading, but it's wrong. Medicare in Australia is not just for the elderly. It pays for health care for all citizens, permanent resident, and visitors from countries with which we have a reciprocal agreement. The USA is NOT one of those countries. The system of private hospitals is funded by people's insurance, and merely provides a choice of environment. The services provided by government and private systems are similar. The public hospitals are payed for by state taxes, although the states get some funding from the federal government. Visits to your family doctor, specialists rooms, and outpatient tests (labs and xrays) are payed for by Medicare.
As for the quality of care here compared with the USA. People go to the US for their care not because it's any better, but because yours is a land where anything is for sale if you have enough money. People can buy what they want regardless of the need or appropriateness of it. In the last year I have had the pleasure of working with some fine American Emergency Physicians from numerous parts of your country, who have said in so many words that the standard of care here in TASMANIA is easily as good as that in equivalent establishments back home. Sure, you have some of the most famous centres in the world, but please don't make the mistake of confusing notoriety with quality.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:53 am
>I have 2 words people.. LIVING WILL Don't let this happen to you.
I totally agree. At some point this decision could effect all of us. To clarify what you would want to happen, how and when, not only clarifies your wishes, but makes things clearer for those who have to decide in your behalf.
Don't think it could happen to you? I had to decide for BOTH my parents. Fortunetly they both had living wills. Its a very tough thing to watch someone die, but there is a point when keeping someone alive is just plain cruel. Its a horrible decision in the best of circumstances. Its unbelievably so if you are unclear as to what the person's wishes.
So GET A LIVING WILL. Today. I don't care how old you are.
Last I heard her mom and dad have pretty much ran out of appeals. I don't see them winning anymore anyway. There's nothing new happening and the tube has been out over a week now.
yeah, i can see this from both sides of the fence, i just wish there was a more humane way of doing this either sedate her or something like that, so she can "sleep thru it?" i dunno :dunno:
WTF? :dunno_black:
Can anyone else hear a flatline?
Quote from: Twisted on February 15, 2011, 12:49:38 AM
WTF? :dunno_black:
Can anyone else hear a flatline?
can anyoen else interpret teh chinese babbling above your reply?
Lol. The post seems to have disappeared :icon_confused:
Quote from: Twisted on February 15, 2011, 02:45:17 AM
Lol. The post seems to have disappeared :icon_confused:
i reported it to moderator, i believe cal was on a lil bit ago. quoted and stated spam reply of some chinese thing. the reply was spam the topic however wasnt. ( so whole thing didnt get tarded or deleted)
Yeh but now it looks like I have resurrected a 6 year old post lol :oops:
Just want to say I saw the spam bot post too. But Twisted: now it looks like you brought an ancient post back while being a cold hearted dude all at once.
Quote from: Big Rich on February 15, 2011, 03:33:51 AM
Just want to say I saw the spam bot post too. But Twisted: now it looks like you brought an ancient post back while being a cold hearted dude all at once.
sorry twisted my bad. i sawthe spambot chinese 007 post as well. wish i could insert a post where hte spambot was :oops: i thought i was the only one resurrecting long gone threads lol
Zombie threads FTW!!!!!