I'm sorry about the long post, but this is something that has "bad idea" written all over it and I want to be sure that people are aware of what our government is attempting to do. You can call me paranoid, but If you have the time, please read this and at least think about it.
Soon, the Senate will be voting on legislation to create a National ID card system which would replace the State Drivers' Licence system currently used. While this legislation looks like a good idea from the outside, there are parts of this that shouldn't be passed. Under the authority of the Department of Homeland Security, RFID chips could put onto these ID cards, effectively making them a wirelessly accessible container for your permanent address, social security number, drivers licence number, picture and any other information that the Department of Homeland Security sees fit to include on these cards. Your personal information could be stolen from your wallet as you stand in line at the grocery store or as you walk along a street. There are also parts of this bill that are not related to ID cards such as granting the Secretary of Homeland Security the ability to circumvent any laws he sees fit when it involves the borders of the USA.
To make matters worse, the bill's authors have attached this legislation to a bill that would authorize funding for US troops in Iraq and aid to tsunami victims in Asia. This bill has already passed the House, and will be voted on tomorrow in the Senate. Please contact your senators and tell them if you are against this bill.
The UnRealID.com (http://unrealid.com) site offers you an opportunity to send your senators a fax through their website.
Alternately, you can look up the phone numbers of your senators here (http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm) and call their office.
The text of the bill has been posted here (http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:H.R.418:).
For more information, these are excerpts from a news.com article (http://news.com.com/National+ID+cards+on+the+way/2100-1028_3-5573414.html?tag=nl):
What does that mean for me?
Starting three years from now, if you live or work in the United States, you'll need a federally approved ID card to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments, or take advantage of nearly any government service. Practically speaking, your driver's license likely will have to be reissued to meet federal standards.
The Real ID Act hands the Department of Homeland Security the power to set these standards and determine whether state drivers' licenses and other ID cards pass muster. Only ID cards approved by Homeland Security can be accepted "for any official purpose" by the feds.
What's going to be stored on this ID card?
At a minimum: name, birth date, sex, ID number, a digital photograph, address, and a "common machine-readable technology" that Homeland Security will decide on. The card must also sport "physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes."
Homeland Security is permitted to add additional requirements--such as a fingerprint or retinal scan--on top of those. We won't know for a while what these additional requirements will be.
Why did these ID requirements get attached to an "emergency" military spending bill?
Because it's difficult for politicians to vote against money that will go to the troops in Iraq and tsunami relief. The funds cover ammunition, weapons, tracked combat vehicles, aircraft, troop housing, death benefits, and so on.
The House already approved a standalone version of the Real ID. Act in February, but by a relatively close margin of 261-161 . It was expected to run into some trouble in the Senate. Now that it's part of an Iraq spending bill, senators won't want to vote against it.
"Supporters claim it is not a national ID because it is voluntary," Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, one of the eight Republicans to object to the measure, said during the floor debate this week. "However, any state that opts out will automatically make nonpersons out of its citizens. They will not be able to fly or to take a train." Paul warned that the legislation, called the Real ID Act, gives unfettered authority to the Department of Homeland Security to design state ID cards and driver's licenses. Among the possibilities: biometric information such as retinal scans, fingerprints, DNA data and RFID tracking technology.
ok, so how hard is it to get a canadian drivers licence again? what about mexico? do they even have a licencing program?
Hmmm, let me think, didn't we have some of these discussions about this a while back? When was it? Oh, yeh, about the time we were getting ready to elect our Dicata...er, President. Well, what can you say. People in this country have gotten to the point that until something directly affects THEM in a bad way they don't give a rat's a** about it. Love the Baby G, Brazil (Sugar Loaf is breathtaking), and this forum.
C........
They should only have these rediculous ID's in Red States.
Note to self: move to Blue State.
like davipu kinda said, get an international licence and romp around with that. keep the "realID" buried in a box in the back yard. Who needs commercial flying, we will be able to teleport 3 years from now to near planets anyway and they will probably have a main road connecting all the continents too. Another reason to add more miles on the GS. :cheers:
and here i thought the republicans liked small government...
next thing you know, you will have to notify and get permission from the government to move.
in soviet america, the government owns you
Quote from: crashand here i thought the republicans liked small government...
The original 'states rights' platforms of the old GOP are ancient history.... as long as they control the federal government, they will be decidedly UN-states rights :roll:
I guess I will be making an aluminium wallet to match my foil hat. :?
If you haven't read it before, Orwell's 1984 will be a bit a startling for you but help you see things in a different light.
If you have never read about the "Business Plot" of the 1930's you might want to check that out too.
Remember, polarized sunglasses prevent unauthorized retinal scans 8)
Quote from: callmelennyI guess I will be making an aluminium wallet to match my foil hat. :?
If you haven't read it before, Orwell's 1984 will be a bit a startling for you but help you see things in a different light.
If you have never read about the "Business Plot" of the 1930's you might want to check that out too.
Remember, polarized sunglasses prevent unauthorized retinal scans 8)
:lol: :lol:
TOO LATE! TOO LATE!
RFID's are a fact of life. You guys want cheap Sh*t from walmart? There's sh*tloads of RFID's in their product packaging. And not just there either. EZPASS, your card reader at work, your school ID.... It's easy enough to steal your identity now, don't worry about another card. Put mine in my temple. Just let me see the aliens and floating cities.
Ok, come on you guys from the right, jump in and start explaining why this is such a needed thing and how it is harmless to the society in general. Rationalize how this is going to prevent the attacks to our society by the bad guys. Love the little White Owl, Canada (how much autonomy is there?), and this forum.
C........
There have been people in CA in the last couple of years that want to give drivers license to illegal immigrants. To get them they need to show ID that is really easy to forge. So if this ever happens, I imagine that my CA DL will be worthless for getting on planes. But I don't want to have to carry another ID around.
so because you can run jump or swim you can get a CA drivers licence?
(just to stir the pot)
Ed_in_AZ? Where are you???
* sound of soap box being dragged across the sand*
Quote from: That guylike davipu kinda said, get an international licence and romp around with that. keep the "realID" buried in a box in the back yard. Who needs commercial flying, we will be able to teleport 3 years from now to near planets anyway and they will probably have a main road connecting all the continents too. Another reason to add more miles on the GS. :cheers:
. there is an "international drivers license", but if you read closely, it does not take the place of the state issued one.
Click here. ive no issues with that possible thing happening, 1 cause ive nothing to hide,
and 2. if someone managed to get your state id, odds are they would probably have in their possession you wallet which if it does not have your ss card, will have something with your ss number on it. plus with medical data on it, it would be less of a hassle to treat you should you be on a road trip somewhere, and end-up ill, injured, or unconscious in a hospital, they can pull up your med records. and properly treat you. just my opinion btw :thumb: :dunno:
It doesn't have crap to do with whether or not you or me or anyone else has anything to hide. It just means I have more paper that I have to keep track of, more shaZam! the state has to keep track of, more money that has to be spent to ensure that everything is done by the book, just more hassle for everybody involved. You, me, and all the citizens of this country own it...not the federal government, not congress, not the senate and certainly not GWB. This is one more thing that WILL cause problems for a certain percentage of people in the future. Your just another one who doesn't care what happens in this country as long as it doesn't cause YOU personally a problem. So sad that we have degenerated into this mind-set. Love the bike and the forum.
C........
The security argument is that a new ID will be more difficult to get , so it can't be as easily used by "evil doers". Law enforcement will theoretically have access to the centralized database of all the state ID's . So if I get pulled for speeding in Texas they will know I got in trouble in Floida for screwing with TSA employees and treat me appropriately.
This idea is supported by many citizens, especially those that incorrectly believe that the 9/11 hijackers had fake or fradulently obtained driver licenses.
Perhaps the most controversial component of the bill is that the cards share some common machine readable format. Almost all states already have this in the form of magnetic stripes or bar codes. Some sponsors of the bill originally wanted RFID's in the cards so that they could be read remotely but that may not survive the final deliberations.
The other problem of course is that it is an unfunded mandate that places the costs of a federal policy on the states. If the bill passes it may be challenged by some states on this ground.
Of course we already have a federal document that meets all these requirements, it is called a passport. The gov't could require everyone to have one and carry it on their person just like in Soviet Russia.
Like most legislation in the last several years, this one is driven by behind the scenes corporate interests and the whores (Rep. and Dem.) that work for them. Database companies like Oracle have been slobbering over the possible contracts for such a large operation. The corps that would make all the new card readers and printers are also pushing this.
This will almost certainly pass in one form or another and cost the taxpayers oodles of dollars. Companies will get even richer and I predict it will be as effective as the billions we spent on airport security since 9-11, not at all.
My comments reflect my lunatic ravings and are not meant to represent the GSTwin community.
Quote from: cernunosIt doesn't have crap to do with whether or not you or me or anyone else has anything to hide. It just means I have more paper that I have to keep track of, more shaZam! the state has to keep track of, more money that has to be spent to ensure that everything is done by the book, just more hassle for everybody involved. You, me, and all the citizens of this country own it...not the federal government, not congress, not the senate and certainly not GWB. This is one more thing that WILL cause problems for a certain percentage of people in the future. Your just another one who doesn't care what happens in this country as long as it doesn't cause YOU personally a problem. So sad that we have degenerated into this mind-set. Love the bike and the forum.
C........
. dammit c wtf, where did i say that i dont care :x speak for yourself :x , i rather have something like this cause the benefits would outweigh the probs, you kinda took it out of context :dunno:
I just do not trust our government anymore...in fact, not in a long time. There are too many things happening in a short period of time since the 911 deal that make me step back and think; why is this really needed, how is that going to help our nation, what is it that has all of a sudden happened that I or you or anyone else must give up this small thing and then that small thing and on and on until the next thing I know I feel like a dog in a cage or, in the worst case, like a Jew during Nazi Germany? I am troubled; am I paranoid? I love the little bike, North America (Canada included), and this forum.
C.......
heres my opinion on this matter take it as you will. i believe 9/11 happened because we were too lenient as it was our security was lax, nowadays in the airport it seems like youve got to go thru a metal detector to go take a s@!t. but i digress, i am willing to give up maybe a thing or two to get what i perceive as security. im more for it for the medical records aspect of it. sure some may say, okay you're willing to give up this, but when they come and get this , that, and the other then what?,. i dont see it going that far. i seriously doubt well end up in the "soviet states of america" just my opinion tho :cheers:
well, before this thread is sent to the farm...
The bill passed (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HR01268:) through the senate today 100-0.
We as a people should assert our rights to be individuals within the society as a whole. When a society does exist there must be rules and order, no doubt. But those rules and that order must be approved or denied by the society as a group, with just recognition for the individual as well. Here are two links which outline a few of the problems and the out-right injustice which the implementation of an identification system such as being proposed could and will eventually lead to.
http://www.idtheftcenter.org/html/national-id.htm
http://www.aclu.org/Privacy/Privacy.cfm
You see, the way I look at it is, where DOES it stop? I would just as soon it doesn't start. I can protect myself and if someone does commit some injustice against me as a group or as an individual there is nothing that a totalitarian government can do to stop it every time. Myself, I am not willing to sacrifice this or that to try to prevent some insignificant thing that MAY happen.
I love the little GS, I love my country (not necessarily the direction it is headed), and I love this forum.
C........
;)
I do not have a problem with making it harder for people to get an ID. I do not have a problem with a National ID system. I believe that something like that will be implimented anyways and if done correctly, would be a good thing.
What I don't like is how this is being done. The way that they are passing this off as an anti-terrorism measure and tacking it onto an "emergengy" funding bill becuase it didn't pass the senate last time may be the way politics work, but that doesn't make it right.
Who is going to pay for this? The feds aren't. There was no funding allocated with this bill, just a mandate that the states upgrade their ID systems and link them together within 3 years. Where are the states going to get the money from?
What scares me are the things that come with this. The department of Homeland Security can now revoke peoples' right to due process, and circumvent ANY law which they deem neccisary when it involves the borders of the US. How far are we willing to go in the name of fighting terrorism? Isn't this exactly what the terrorists want; to have us running scared shitless? To have us spend millions to "make our skies safer" by profiling and harrassing its citizens, to ban zippo lighters and nail trimmers from airplanes and all the useless crap that has been passed in the name of fighting terror? What has it done? Are we really any safer than we were before 9/11? I, for one don't believe that we are.
What if we took all the extra money that is being spent on airline security and the "war on terror" and spent it on feeding, clothing and educating the people who wouldn't otherwise have these things? I realize that I am young, and possibly a bit naive but I see that as a bit more productive than sacrificing peoples lives to "uphold an ideal" (assuming that IS the motivation, but that is another debate entirely) however likely success may be.
No, you are not naive Goat. You are an exception to the rule of young people not being able to see past their nose. And Ed, just wait, I'm sure some kind of legislation to take our guns is in the works; it just has to be...how did the wicked witch of the west put it? "delicately my dear, delicately". I am troubled by the times of our world, even though I love the Baby GS (may I get to ride for many years), I love the Earth (polluted and convoluted as we have made it), and I love this forum.
C........
we tried that in Somalia remember? the feeding thing dosn't work.
goat i see your point, but we need to feed clothe (sp?), and educate our own people before we worry about the rest of the worlds we've got un-educated, poorly clothed, hungry people here, yet we concern ourselves with other countries probs firsthand, theyve got probs but yet so do we :dunno:
Quote from: yamahonkawazukigoat i see your point, but we need to feed clothe (sp?), and educate our own people before we worry about the rest of the worlds we've got un-educated, poorly clothed, hungry people here, yet we concern ourselves with other countries probs firsthand, theyve got probs but yet so do we :dunno:
I did say people without. I meant people within the US and outside. Seriously, how many people could you feed, clothe and educate with $83 billion?
Quote from: davipuwe tried that in Somalia remember? the feeding thing dosn't work.
I don't consider myself an expert on that area, but I thought that was becuase the food wasn't getting to the people that needed it. The warlords would intercept the food and sell it to raise money for guns.
Quote from: goatWho is going to pay for this?
As in every single thing the government does, we will pay for it. Doesn't matter if it's state or federal or local, it all comes out of our paychecks.
And I normally agree with Ed on most things, but I have to disagree here. We
can refuse them both. We just have to quit electing morons. Oh well, makes me glad I voted for Badnarik. OK now, tell me how I wasted my vote just like all my conservative friends who voted for Bush. :roll:
I for one don't don't want to give up any liberties for perceived security, which is what the majority of the post 9/11 security measures have been, including this one. Why don't we spend money on some REAL security, like patrolling the borders and making sure we're not letting terrorists into our country to begin with, then we won't have to worry about them getting fake IDs.
Ah, screw it. Eventually, whether I like it or not, the government is going to know exactly where I am at all times. They will know who I am standing near and who I call (so they know who I see and speak to). They will know if I've been into a barber shop or a strip joint or a gun store (the one essential freedom that is left for me). They will realize from the speed of my movements that I may be a threat to others who are slowers and weaker. They'll likely burden me with locked steel chains and sand bags so that I am easier to track and monitor. They may damage my voice and eyes so that I can no longer see that I have lost what the founders of this nation would call freedom, or yell to complain. They will leave me, struggling against my restraints like Harrison Burgeron, blind and dumb, left with only my ears, so that I may hear them coddle me over and over, "Shhh. . . shhhh. . . We did this for you. We did this for you."
Just kidding. I actually don't think it is that big of a deal.
Quote from: Jake DAh, screw it. Eventually, whether I like it or not, the government is going to know exactly where I am at all times.
Dude, don't worry about the government. They can be held accountable *on occasion* . Retail organizations already watch your every move with this "teknolujee".
You guys all are arguing about politics and overlooking that this crap has permeated our lives already. You don't have privacy in 2005. You have bits and bites - some of them are protected.
Yes we have Big Brother - he wants to know what you want on your pizza.
I guess I'm just not smart enough to understand "teknolujee".
I'll leave the heavy thinkin' to you guys and continue on down my slippery slope.
Identify the proposition P being refuted and identify the final event in the series of events. Then show that this final event need not occur as a consequence of P.
Need not occur or show that it may possibly flow from the occurrence of P?
Clarify.
[As an aside: I got an idea that you some of you might not like. Why not put chips in hand guns, rifles, and automatic weapons that will track its location at all times? And why stop there? Why not put a device in it that will scan the user's finger print prior to it's operation? Without a confirmation of its user, it will not fire. Is that a bad idea?]
In order to show that a proposition P is unacceptable, a sequence of increasingly unacceptable events is shown to follow from P. A slippery slope is an illegitimate use of the "if-then" operator.
With chips - you'll only need one. The back end is where tracking decisions will be made.
No jake, it's not what did you do to deserve, it's what have you done to allow? What have WE done to allow? Jake D for President 2008. Love the little bike, Somalia (tough nut to crack), and this forum.
C.......
Oh no, you've not offended Jake, because a truth is not an offense. But the ringing in my ears is 50,000,000 sheep bleating...baaah baaah baaah. Jake D for President 2008. Love the twin, Straights of Magellan (10 crapper doors now sitting at the bottom), and this forum.
C........
:lol:
You're the man, C.
10 crapper doors!
Yeh, the military can get some strange ideas sometimes...10 crapper doors. Isn't that a waste of taxpayer's money? Jake D for President 2008. Love the little bike, Guam (camp out in the old Jap fortifications), and this forum.
C........
We shall see the Patagonians yet!
Now move this off to the Tard Farm for its political content.
Quote from: Jake D[As an aside: I got an idea that you some of you might not like. Why not put chips in hand guns, rifles, and automatic weapons that will track its location at all times? And why stop there? Why not put a device in it that will scan the user's finger print prior to it's operation? Without a confirmation of its user, it will not fire. Is that a bad idea?]
yay judge dredd! who said stalone movies are useless
Quote from: crashQuote from: Jake D[As an aside: I got an idea that you some of you might not like. Why not put chips in hand guns, rifles, and automatic weapons that will track its location at all times? And why stop there? Why not put a device in it that will scan the user's finger print prior to it's operation? Without a confirmation of its user, it will not fire. Is that a bad idea?]
yay judge dredd! who said stalone movies are useless
:lol: werd :lol: