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The Pres is pushing for the Patriot Act to be renewed...permanently. Think it should be permanent or not? I think it sometimes goes too far. Love the bike, USA, and the forum.

C........

it's just a bunch of hibbidy hoopla, like clinton's gun crap.  the only reason it's here is to please the masses.  it's time we start accepting responsibility for our actions and realize that govt cannot regulate our lives.  unless you want to live in a rat cage whare you have to have a passport to go to work and the puter chip in your noodle is being tracked by the CIA so that you are not a threat to others.                  


gnihsif enog

Gee, if we need it so much now....how the heck did we ever get by without it for all the previous decades? :?  I usually dont get into all the political debates but some of this stuff is going too far.  Just heard this week the TSA can start fining you BIG bucks for those nail clippers toothpicks and lighters you carry to the airport.  Your 2 or 3 books of matches are OK to bring along though :?  :bs:  :x

its one book of matches per person and you have to carry it on you

Politics of fear.

Effective for controlling the masses.  Whoops!  I hope this poll doesn't get "noticed".  We'd probably get bumped up to Orange!

JakeD- I believe the correct color is tangerine   :roll:

I say no, a very passionate no. I do not wish to delve too deep, but im sticking with no.

Jose Pedilla ring a bell to anyone? If i remember correctly he is STILL being held with no charges filed and incommunicado.

It'll probably pass, though. It's like that extra, unrelated shaZam! they added onto a recent emergency funding bill. Stuff that wouldn't have passed if it wasn't attached to a bill that senators/congressman would have been reamed out for not supporting it.

Supporting a bill called the Patriot act is patriotic. Questioning it would be wrong. The only people that question bills like that are un-american. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

Personally, I sleep better at night knowing that the patriot act is keeping me safe by protecting me from file sharers, grandmas with knitting needles and my own freedom.

I should probably stop before I start ranting more.

I don't like it either... I don't like the way its written...

But I think most of us would agree we need some of the stuff in the Patriot act, right?  Is there a better plan?

I think RESTRICTING some of the communication and powers granted in the patriot act by revising it, and re-introducing it (AFTER A VERY VERY THOUROUGH GOING OVER) and THEN checking to see if its constitutional, which i bet it still wont be. But even then, I still wouldnt like it, in its present form its crap, and in any bastardised forms it will be crap.

You CANNOT have an entirely free country AND protect the people from sick assholes who want to blow it all up.  IT CAN'T BE DONE.  You either have total freedom OR you have controls and snooping to weed out the bad guys.  It's very simple (this time).  You choose.

a.  Totally free and someday blown up.

b.  Not TOTALLY free but mostly free and fairly safe.  Not 100% but pretty good.

c.  Not free at all and still gonna get blown up some day.

Exactly WHAT are you doing where you must fear the government?  They're NOT going to just scoop you up off the streets for NO reason.  You HAVE to be VERY suspicious to be nabbed.  EVERYONE in jail says they're innocent!

Quote from: joerockerYou CANNOT have an entirely free country AND protect the people from sick assholes who want to blow it all up.  IT CAN'T BE DONE.  You either have total freedom OR you have controls and snooping to weed out the bad guys.  It's very simple (this time).  You choose.

a.  Totally free and someday blown up.

b.  Not TOTALLY free but mostly free and fairly safe.  Not 100% but pretty good.

c.  Not free at all and still gonna get blown up some day.

Exactly WHAT are you doing where you must fear the government?  They're NOT going to just scoop you up off the streets for NO reason.  You HAVE to be VERY suspicious to be nabbed.  EVERYONE in jail says they're innocent!

See sig

Quote from: goatSee sig

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Ben Franklin

+1

That my friend was written a LONG time ago during a time when bio, chem, nuke, weapons did not exhist.  It was a MUCH simpler time.

If we could eliminate ALL the radical (true believer) Muslims, I'd agree.  We cannot.  They want our culture gone.  They will keep trying until they succede.

Only a FOOL doesn't react when a known enemy has declared "jihad" on them.  You must be a fool.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Ben Franklin

OK, here is my quote:

Only a fool ignores a threat from an enemy, and as a fool, deserves a quick demise.

joerocker, 6/10/05


Tell me oh wise one...  What ESSENTIAL liberty ARE you giving up?  Do you lose your right to speak?  Gather?

What are you losing besides pure privacy (which you're dreaming if you think you had that)?

What are you hiding?

Do you REALLY think the government is reading all your mail?  Listening to your phone?  Watching you from helicopters?

My God man, you are paranoid.

This is simply to stop suspicious BAD people.  People who want you dead.  They REALLY do you know, as hard as it is for you to believe.

I'd rather be free...  If safety was my number one concern, I'd move into a bomb shelter in the middle of nowhere and have no interaction with the outside world.  I wouldn't walk the streets of ANY city...  Or even enter a city for that matter...  and I certainly wouldn't ride a motorcycle.

Freedom is more important than safety.  Yes, we need to be safe to be free, but you must weigh the costs of each.

Live Free or Die.

But you ARE free!  What freedom are you losing?  Please name it!

And IF these Muslim whackos do strike, you wouldn't be safe there either.  Unless you have provisions for a long long time.

Think about this:  IF they were to get a nuke.  It could EASILY be put in a container and on a ship.  Once in a US harbor, say NY or LA it could be detonated.  Remember they had pilots for 911, they could easily get their people working in a port.  A detonation of a nuke in a major city would cause panic the likes of which even God has never seen.  Now, you tell me, what would the people in EVERY major city do?  What would they do when aljazeera reported the terrorists had more bombs ALREADY planted in other cities?  EVERYONE would flee.  What happens when the cities empty?  Everything stops.  The US collapses.

Is that worth a LITTLE "spying" on questionable people?

You're only not free to cause havoc, to blow us up, to poison us, to harm us.  Unless you do something to WARRANT suspicion, why would anyone want to know what you're doing?  Why would anyone CARE?

I'd imagine IF you are Muslim you'll be watched more closely than some white guy from wherever you live.  Profiling DOES work!

The main problem with the Patriot Act as I see it is the opening of a door to allow for the exclusion or the suspension of alienable rights as put forth by our Constitution. It allows for authority to detain an individual without due process of law for one thing. It also extends power to search an individual's possessions without that same process of law. These are but two examples of the act which trouble the majority of lawmakers and judges in the USA. The wording is "sugar coated" so that the average person believes it will not pertain to them...but surely someone with an IQ higher than an egg can read through it. One of the problems I have with a lot of people is exactly, and ironically, what Joe tends to put forth; people have forgotten how to read or they have lost the interest or incentive to read and understand items on this country's agenda which have influence upon their future. Love the Baby GS, USA (even with Joe and Wilson), and this forum.

C........

Ooooops....misspelled a word above....alienable should, of course, be "inalienable" (big difference). Love the little GS, Maine (lotta friendly people there), and this forum.

C........

c,

And just how are you supposed to PREEMPT a terrorist attack if you follow the old ways?  I mean our system (and it held up pretty well until now) is set up to prove and punish AFTER you commit a crime.  How can you work to preempt the commission of a terrorist crime using the old ways?  If I'm right and the Muslim extrimists are planning another MAJOR attack, we have to prevent it right?  And you simply CAN'T prevent it if you can't actively try to get the info that it IS going to happen.  Sadly, you MUST "spy" on people in the country to know what is planned.  YES?

Exactly where does it say an inalienable right to PRIVACY?

Why why why, would anyone in the government want to search you or my property?  Come on, let's be reasonable about this.  Have you ever seen a story in the news about someone complaining about government agents moving in and searching their house?  Not around here anyway.  Maybe in an Arab community where there ARE extremists living.

I think for the average normal law abiding citizen it means nothing.

Quote from: joerockerBut you ARE free!

Secret (non-public record) warrants...  The ability to hold someone for an indeterminate amount of time for being a "terrorist" without actually charging them with anything...  There are thousands more...  It's all loss of rights, privacy, and freedom.

It's a slippery slope...  Each freedom you lose makes the next freedom easier to lose.

You need to study your history books a little.  Perhaps you can tell me the first rights the Jews lost in Germany prior to WWII...  Then what rights did they lose?  Then, what was next?

And...  About your nukes...  If they get a nuke, it's all over.  The US will shaZam!-can every country in the Middle-East and WWIII will ensue...  It will be the end of the world as we know it!!!!!    :o  :o  :o  

You know...  Kinda like the 80's and the Russians...   :lol:  'cause they were "finger on the button" the whole time!   :o  :o

:lol:

You want to talk about freedoms lost.  How about back when Lincoln took away the STATES rights?  The states pretty much LOST their ability to self-govern.  The federal government became the final say in everything.  Sure, a FEW token things were left for the states but anything important is
decided by the feds.

Why do you think the EU is having such a hard time with the constitution?  Many of the "big" member countries don't want to give up too much of their sovranty.

You're "freedoms" have been cut so severely already by your government that it isn't funny.  You CAN'T drive without a seatbelt.  You HAVE to have insurance.  Most states REQUIRE a helmet.  Even the fact that you NEED a license to drive is taking away a freedom.  You are taxed like crazy for things you have no control of or desire to fund.  The list goes on and on and on...

You're right, the Jews slowly lost their rights.  And I'd like the SAME thing to happen HERE with the Muslims.  Go to my "Muslim bombing" thread.  Look at what's in the Quran.  Look at what "peaceful" Muslims are taught.

You and I are NOT going to lose ANY rights.  ONLY questionable people will be "targeted".  And that is a GOOD thing.

And you are SO right about nukes.  So, don't you want to at least TRY to stop one from voming into this country?  Or, have you resigned yourself to the fact that someday it's going to happen anyway so why bother?  Now THAT is a scary attitude!  Don't "infringe" on some assholes rights and throw away the entire world as we know it!!!!  Wow!

Joerocker wrote:
"You CAN'T drive without a seatbelt. You HAVE to have insurance. Most states REQUIRE a helmet. Even the fact that you NEED a license to drive is taking away a freedom. You are taxed like crazy for things you have no control of or desire to fund. The list goes on and on and on... "

Note: those are all state laws.  You complain about the feds taking freedoms that should belong to states, and the cite cases where states have taken away rights.
Once again, you're an idiot and you've just proven it and I am smarter and I win.
Thanks for playin'.  Blow me!

Quote from: joerockerYou're right, the Jews slowly lost their rights.  And I'd like the SAME thing to happen HERE with the Muslims.  Go to my "Muslim bombing" thread.  Look at what's in the Quran.  Look at what "peaceful" Muslims are taught.

You and I are NOT going to lose ANY rights.  ONLY questionable people will be "targeted".  And that is a GOOD thing.

+

Quote from: joerockerYou're "freedoms" have been cut so severely already by your government that it isn't funny.

Are you saying that my rights are already gone and I should just give up and accept being moved into the Ghetto to wait for the death train?  Are you a f%$king idiot?  We, the people, need to fight for every right we have and fight  for MORE and MORE and MORE rights.  That is the only way to keep your freedom.  If you let your freedom go stale, it will be taken bit by bit.

Quote from: joerockerYou're right, the Jews slowly lost their rights.  And I'd like the SAME thing to happen HERE with the Muslims.

Rights?  The Jews lost their LIVES.  Don't you get it?!?  It starts with one group... Then it's another and another...  Just like the loss of your rights.  First the small rights... Then more and more... Bigger and bigger.  First it would be the "terrorists."  Then it moves to the "trouble makers."  Then the "questionable."  There's no end...  Read 1984 again...  Or perhaps for the first time.  Do some research on what it's really like to live in a "secured" government.  In short order it will be illegal to say, "I think the government is doing something wrong."  You will be an enemy of the state if you have an opinion.  I'd rather be dead.

LIVE FREE OR DIE!

Quote from: joerockerAnd you are SO right about nukes.  So, don't you want to at least TRY to stop one from voming into this country?  Or, have you resigned yourself to the fact that someday it's going to happen anyway so why bother?  Now THAT is a scary attitude!  Don't "infringe" on some assholes rights and throw away the entire world as we know it!!!!  Wow!

:lol: You totally missed my point on this one...

And exactly HOW are YOU different?  You are intolerant of those with a difference of opinion.  You would have my speech squelched.  Take a look at yourself from OUTSIDE.  Look back and you will see I'm right.  At least I let you talk without resorting to namecalling at the earliest opportunity!

I think it is YOU who are missing a crucial point.

The Jews in Germany weren't going around BRAGGING that they were going to bring the country down.  They weren't going around blowing things up.  

Muslims HAVE declared a religious WAR against EVERYONE who isn't a Muslim.  They've DONE this.  They are also DOING it all over the world.  They are blowing PEOPLE up.  EVERY day you hear of another Muslim bombing.

GET IT?

WE NEED TO STOP MUSLIM TERRORISTS!

If you think you've lost a lot of freedoms already (and yes we have, too many) what do you think is going to happen, not if, but WHEN these nutcases DO attack us again?  This is NOTHING compared to the hell we'll ALL be living in if these bastards succede!

I've BEEN to their country.  I KNOW how wacked they are.  Yes, MOST if not ALL.

Again, you're BLIND.  Get out of your comportable safe cocoon.



PS...  We WON'T "shaZam! can" every country in the mideast.  We CAN'T.  They have 1/4-1/2 the worlds oil and EVERYONE needs that.  If you nuke it, you can't pump it.  If you'd think it through you'd realize that.  Problem is, you don't think it through.  You're full of facts but can't seem to extrapolate a future conclusion from them.

And the other guy,  it all BEGAN with the feds taking away states rights with Lincoln.  Some of you are so one-dimentional.  The states do MORE than their fair share of taking your rights away too.  I figured since this IS a motorcycle forum you could relate to driving.  Guess I overestimated you.  And yes, almost daily the feds ARE taking more and more states rights away.

Quote from: joerockerAnd exactly HOW are YOU different?  You are intolerant of those with a difference of opinion.  You would have my speech squelched.  Take a look at yourself from OUTSIDE.  Look back and you will see I'm right.  

Anyone else but me find that funny? :dunno:

I thought it was.

Quote from: joerockerWE NEED TO STOP MUSLIM TERRORISTS!

with all due respect, duh.

profiling up to a point is reasonable.  if you're looking for muslim extremists, it's probably reasonable to look mainly at muslims.

however, once you begin needlessly antagonizing a specific group you're just  gonna piss them off.

if it weren't for attitudes like yours, Osama Bin Laden wouldn't have any supporters.

contrary to popular belief, there really aren't that many people falling all over themselves to die for their religion.  if it weren't for the perception that the arabic people are under siege and that their land is being taken from them (Palestine, a perpetual US military presence) there'd be a lot fewer people willing to take up arms.

muslims who are struggling to make a life for themselves this country look at people like you and say, "what am i doing?  these people all hate us anyway."

and as for profiling, muslims aren't the only terrorist threat.  prior to 9-11, the largest terrorist attack on this nation was perpetrated by a white supremicist who considered himself a hero trying to defend the principles this nation was founded upon.

so, the next time you think about profiling, you might want to look in a mirror.


cheers,
will

Wants free speech- except for minorities, gays, women, etc.
Hates religion, but preaches incessantly and puts you down if you don't ascribe
Self-proclaimed proud independent thinker, but puts you down the second you have an idea that isn't his.
(My personal favorite:) Embodies the stereotype of southern white trash racist by stereotyping every ethnic/gender/religious group out there.

and the list goes on....

indestructable,

Just being on this planet is antagonizing these people.  Simply being non Muslim antagonizes these people.

A suicide bomber strikes EVERY day.  That isn't a large enough group of volunteers to worry about?

I said it before, a Muslim living in the west AS a westerner is NOT a true Muslim in the eyes of the majority of Muslims.  It's like a Catholic who practices birth control.  The Pope says NO, they do it anyway.  Get it?  They are NOT true Catholics.  It's ALL of NOTHING.  Back to relativism again.  The TRUE Muslims living in the mideast, indonesia, etc. are our worry.  AND the ones planted here to do us harm.

Yes, there are crazy white people too.  These people are EXTREMELY upset about the rights taken by the government.  They have gone WAY too far. They ARE upset about the liberties that HAVE been lost since the founding of this country.  The US as it is now is NOTHING like what the founders envisioned/created.  Agreed?   But, their threat palls in comparison to the threat by Islam.

Jake, Casi, you don't even HAVE a flowchart.  You simply parrot the party line.  Someone else did your thinking for you and you swallow it hook line and sinker.

I would tear apart your "chart", but it would be a waste of my time explaining my positions AGAIN.

Again, nothing constructive to add so the namecalling...

Let me say something about Palestine AGAIN.  It is such an insignificant "problem" that it's laughable that people still believe it's the crux of the mideast problems.  Irael takes up less than 1% of the total mideast (Arab) land area.  The Palestinians less than half of that.  It's comparable to the WHOLE US squabbeling over an area about the size of Vermont and the 5 million or so people who live there.  It is NOT the problem, it is an excuse to cover deeper lying hostility.  It is simply a "cause" to rally behind.  The reality is they want Israel gone and the infidels gone too.  Britian OWNED that land.  Britian decided to give it back.  The Arabs simply declared it invalid and have been using it as an excuse ever since.

Quote from: joerockerJake, Casi, you don't even HAVE a flowchart.  You simply parrot the party line.  Someone else did your thinking for you and you swallow it hook line and sinker.

I would tear apart your "chart", but it would be a waste of my time explaining my positions AGAIN.

Again, nothing constructive to add so the namecalling...

this coming from the "man" who has relentlessly been spewing Klan rhetoric... :lol:

ok.  true catholics wouldn't practice birth control.  but i'll bet the fake Catholics outnumber the true ones.

as the entire world modernizes (kansas notwithstanding) people throw off traditions that they now find error with.

the same thing is happening with Islam.  i've got turkish friends who are muslims.  these are not dangerous people.  by your estimation, they aren't real muslims.  but i think that people like this are set to take over the religion given a chance.

in christianity, you've got people who bomb clinics and kill doctors vs. people like my parents.  in Islam, you've got suicide bombers vs. people like my Turkish friends.

the more backward sections of the religions see that they're a dying breed.  clerics wishing to maintain power and people who just plain fear change take up arms.  they point at the problems of the modern world and say, "this is because we've turned away from God (Allah)."  the weak minded and people who've been truly put-upon by life follow them.

if you get right down to it, Islam is no more inherently xenophobic than Christianity.  Christianity has by and large progressed to fit the modern world.  Islam is doing the same, but it's not as far along.  the political situation in the middle east (rich corrupt regimes, poor put upon people, foreign military presences) provides a lot of young cannon fodder who feel they have nothing to lose.


i'm not an authority on what the founders vision for this country was.  i know that it didn't involve standing armies.  it probably didn't involve social security either.  the realities of the modern world (realities they could not have foreseen) have made these things desirable.

cheers,
will

Quote from: joerockerAnd exactly HOW are YOU different?   You are intolerant of those with a difference of opinion.  You would have my speech squelched.

I'm not a racist f%$k-stick...  You are.  I don't HATE the majority of races in the world...  You do.  I'm not intolerant of people that are different than me...  You are.

I'm about 100,000 time MORE tolerant than you are.  You're a racist f%$k-stick... I am not.  I want equality for ALL races, ALL nationalities, ALL religions (or lack there of), BOTH sexes...  ALL PEOPLE.  You do not.

I don't want to "squelch" your speech...  Keep talking.  I want everyone to know who you are.  I want everyone to know what you think...  That way we can watch you.  You are a hate monger.  YOU are the enemy of this country and everyone in it.  Your hate will destroy you and everyone around you.

Quote from: joerockerThe Jews in Germany weren't going around BRAGGING that they were going to bring the country down.  They weren't going around blowing things up.  

Muslims HAVE declared a religious WAR against EVERYONE who isn't a Muslim.  They've DONE this.  They are also DOING it all over the world.  They are blowing PEOPLE up.  EVERY day you hear of another Muslim bombing.

That's odd...  I work with Muslims...  I have Muslim friends...  Why haven't they killed me yet?   :dunno:  Are they just "Lazy Minorities?"  :dunno:  Are they just waiting for the right time to stop being my friend/co-worker and blow me up?   :dunno:

Get a grip.  Not every Russian was trying to kill us in the 80's and not every Muslim or Middle-Easterner is trying to kill us now.  Really...  Get a grip.

Quote from: joerockerIf you think you've lost a lot of freedoms already (and yes we have, too many) what do you think is going to happen, not if, but WHEN these nutcases DO attack us again?  This is NOTHING compared to the hell we'll ALL be living in if these bastards succede!

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Ben Franklin   :thumb:

Quote from: joerockerWe WON'T "shaZam! can" every country in the mideast.  We CAN'T.  They have 1/4-1/2 the worlds oil and EVERYONE needs that.  If you nuke it, you can't pump it.

Did I say nuke?  You said nuke...  I said "shaZam!-Can."  That doesn't imply nuke to me...  But, I'm a little closer to sanity.  ;)

And BTW...  You should hang out here (http://forum.protestwarrior.com) Joey...

Some of them are "your" kind of people (that means racist).

indestructableman,

I LOVE IT!!  What a response!  Cool, calm, well reasoned, thoughtful, thought provoking.  There IS hope for a few of you.

Unlike the "cursers".  Watch out, you're gonna pop a vessel!

Oh, how I hope you're right.  BUT, what I see doesn't confirm it.  I see it getting worse between the west and the Muslims.  I see Iran working on a nuke "power" system when they have about 1/4 of the mideast oil reserves.  They don't NEED another form of power.  It's the bombings that really worry me.  Is it me or has that REALLY increased?  Are they REALLY mellowing?  Are they REALLY ready to go against their book?  Against the teachings?

You REALLY need to go to an Islamic country before you make up your mind.  First hand experience will teach you a lot.  You can't really accurately judge people by the FEW who have left their homeland for the west.  As I said, relativism.  They are picking and choosing what they will follow.  The Quran says in black and white that THEY are NOT good Muslims.  They are no better than the infidels.  Sorry...

Cheers to you too...

Thank you again for a reasonable post.

while i've never been to a muslim country, my parents did live in Iran for awhile, so i'm not completely talking out of my nether regions.

Iman,

I've been thinking about your post...  Ask your parents about Iran, beg them for the truth.  Ask your friend WHY he left his Muslim country.  Even though as Muslim states go, Turkey is at the bottom religiously speaking.  The REAL Muslims don't even aknowledge Turkey as a REAL Muslim country.  The Iraqis freaked out when they heard some of them might enter their lands at the beginning of the war.  Almost as bad as the western infidels coming in.

The difference I think between radical Muslims and Christians is that in Islam it's an "institutional" radicalism and in Christianity it's splinter groups.  Sure a clinic here or there may be targeted by some wackos but with Islam, it's all over the world.  You must agree on that point.

I also disagree with your xenophobe point.  Christianity is ACTIVELY out drumming up new business.  Islam however, seem like Christianity was hundreds of years ago during the conquests of the world.  You know, the find the natives and convert or kill them routine.

I'm also not aware of anything in the Bible/torah like you find in the Quran about convert or kill.  The Quran is BLANTENT in its call for conversion/killing.

Again, you can thank Lincoln for the ruination of our country.  The blacks may love him but everyone else should loath him.  He ALSO started the income tax "temporarily" to fund the civil war.  We ALL know how temporary that was.  As for unforseen realities, yes, I wholeheartedly agree.  Noone could have forseen what the world would have become.

I'd rather have a world/country with a few productive, SELF governing people doing what they wish, than a world/country where there are a lot of people and everyones things get thrown into one big pot to be shared.  I believe in survival of the fittest, you reap what you sow, I keep what's mine if you can't make it, get those genes out of the pool.  Liberals want everyone to have the same things as everyone else regardless of ability and work.

Just a basic difference of opinion.

Quote from: DanielyI say no, a very passionate no. I do not wish to delve too deep, but im sticking with no.

Jose Pedilla ring a bell to anyone? If i remember correctly he is STILL being held with no charges filed and incommunicado.

Well, you'll to have to delve deeper than this to sway my vote since the Pedilla (sp?) case is unrelated to the Patriot Act.  JP was labeled an "enemy combatant"  by the Executive Branch.  Apparently, this is a Constitutional gray area and the case is currently working its way through the courts and the courts will have the final say.  
No doubt, though, the Patriot Act--as well as Clinton's Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 (post OKCity bombing)--makes it that much tougher for terrorism to gain a foothold in the USA.  I'm all for that!

Ok, for the political Laymen,  tell me 'in layman terms' precisely what the "Patriot Act" is?


i want to hear from 2 sep people on this,  one FOR the act, and One who opposes it. i want to know HOW you interpret the 'act' and how you see it effecting Life in the USA both need a really solid understanding of what the act says.


so, first order is who will be the 2 sides of the same coin?


Up first is the Pro act persona

Quote from: joerocker
I'm also not aware of anything in the Bible/torah like you find in the Quran about convert or kill.  The Quran is BLANTENT in its call for conversion/killing.

God, I hate having to repeat myself...

Exodus
22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
22:19
Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
22:20
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
23:24
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

plenty more old testament ones if you want me to list them, but let's skip to the new testament, just to get JC's perspective on the whole deal, shall we?

Luke
11:23
He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Acts
3:23
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

2 Cor
6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
6:15
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

*Got this from Zara when he posted on another thread

Aaand another one:
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5

Quote from: joerocker
Just a basic difference of opinion.

If that's the case, then stop starting threads, and then trying to shut people up when their opinions don't coincide with yours.