Hello dear all,
hope you guys can help me as I am an a newbie mechanic with no experience and lots of problems :)
ok, I got 1990 gs500. bike was sitting for a couple of years. now I am trying to bring it back to life. When I started it the first time it started but was working unevenly and died eventually. so I cleaned the carbs and put it all back together, or at least I hope so :) it sounds much better and doesn't seem to die right away, and there are no shotgun shoots from my exhaust system anymore, but I got a few problems.
First of all, there are two t-shaped tubes between the carbs, one plastic at the bottom and one rubber at the top. the bottom one as I understand is a fuel line, but as for the top one I couldn't find any info, so I don't have anything plugged to it. there are no other tubes with free ends in the bike so I am not sure what to do with it. Any info is appreciated
Secondly, the right carb doesn't seem to work. If you pull out the cord going to the right spark plug the bike still runs, although not as smooth), but when you unplug the left one (with the right plugged in) the bike dies. What can it be?
I'd appreciate any info as I am desperate to ride, but not rich enough to spend money on somebody to work on it. Looking forward for your replies.
the top "T" is a vent/drain tube. Look here for a routing diagram:
http://www.bbburma.net/FuelHoseRouting.htm
Check if there is spark to both cylinders (lay spark wire against bike and engage the starter... watch for spark on both sides). If no spark in one cylinder, check the ground wires on the battery. Reportedly, there is a big thick ground wire, and a thin ground wire, crimped to the big one. If the thin one loses conductivity with ground (such as if the battery pulls on the ground wire), then one cylinder will cut out. (not tested by me)
Quote from: Rema1000...If no spark in one cylinder, check the ground wires on the battery. Reportedly, there is a big thick ground wire, and a thin ground wire, crimped to the big one. If the thin one loses conductivity with ground (such as if the battery pulls on the ground wire), then one cylinder will cut out. (not tested by me)
Hasn't been tested by me either, but I can confirm this report of the wiring because I just finished the frame level rewiring of my 90 project. The big ground wire (aka - black, negative lead) has a smaller wire crimped on it near the connection to the battery. The other end of the large ground wire is connected to the engine case just forward of the rear brake master cylinder. This location is difficult to get to and check.
We have had several posts about "one cylinder firing symptom" and I believe Srinath has seen a poor small ground wire connection cause this. It makes sense because the ignitor module (aka - black box...mounted on the left side of the battery box) needs a direct connection to the negative battery. "Frame grounds" are too iffy to depend on for clean electronic operation. Too much vibration, dirt, moisture, etc.
It is always a good idea to go over ALL the electrical connections on a project bike. It can save headaches later.
thanks guys for the prompt replies, but
1) ray: looking at the diagram I somehow have a short tube infront and long in the back (that is it looks like 1 and 2 are switched in my case, although the shutoff switch is on the other side like the diagram). As for the top tshape I guess I just lost the hose somewhere, but since it doesn't connect to anything it should not matter at the moment.
2) rema and star: I took out the spark plugs and they seem to be sparking all right.
and to my disappointment the engine still dies after a while, and it won't run with choke full open even for a second.
also, can it be that one carb works "just a little bit"? Because when I unplug the right carb the sound still changes, like there's less power (although the bike still runs for a while), but then again when you unplug the left one it just dies
now about the "auxilary ground", first of all thank you for giving me an idea on the key words to feed the search system. As for the application of the solutions.. all my wires are wrapped together in a black tape so it's impssible to judge where that ground wires go, I am no mechanic yet, so please tell me if it's safe to unwrap them, whether I need it, etc.
Also if I find a dirty/rusted connector, what's the best way to clean it and prevent from further rusting? I saw people mentioning electrical grease, is it available at auto stores or where do I find it? as for cleaning do I use sandpaper?
And finally the auxilary ground in my case is two black and white wires. I did my best trying to locate where they might be going.. I found one black and white connector just hanging next to the flasher, not connected to anything and there seems to be nothing to connect it to. I was unable to locate where the other one goes.. Any ideas on the loose connector? what do I do with it? I figured that might be the reason for my troubles, am I right?
I'm not sure about the loose connector. :dunno:
Since you're desperate, perhaps you could work your way through the first 2 pages of this thread (http://gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5500)? I am especially interested in your resistance results for the worksheet near the bottom of the 2nd page....
thanks for the info Kerry, but just like the guy in the thread I am new to using a multimeter. Do I understand it right that I just unplug the coil on both sides and connect one side to one multimeter connector and the other to the other and just write down the number it gives me? what do I compare it to? because in the manual to the multimeter it says use the setting just above what you expect to read.. so what do I expect to get?
also about running on one cylinder, the other one actually kind of works... as long as you open the throttle, otherwise it dies after 2-3 turns. Does it mean that it is not an electrical problem?
and finally my turn signals don't blink, just just turn on or off, can it affect how the bike runs or am I getting too paranoid? :roll:
Quote from: Soaring................ if I find a dirty/rusted connector, what's the best way to clean it and prevent from further rusting? I saw people mentioning electrical grease, is it available at auto stores or where do I find it? as for cleaning do I use sandpaper?
Yes, you can use fine sandpaper to clean the contact surfaces. Use dielectric grease, available at auto parts stores, when you fasten the electrical connections. This will keep moisture out of the connection and avoid corrosion.
Quote from: Soaring............. I found one black and white connector just hanging next to the flasher, not connected to anything and there seems to be nothing to connect it to. ...........
This wire is not used. Just ignore it.
Quote from: Soaringnow about the "auxilary ground", ........... all my wires are wrapped together in a black tape so it's impssible to judge where that ground wires go, I am no mechanic yet, so please tell me if it's safe to unwrap them, whether I need it, etc.
................
And finally the auxilary ground in my case is two black and white wires. I did my best trying to locate where they might be going.. ................ I was unable to locate where the other one goes..............
I assume you are referring to the small black-white wire attached to the large black wire at the neg (-) terminal of the battery. That wire splits off into two black-white wires. One of them is a direct connection to the regulator/rectifier. The other is the return path (ground) for all the other stuff on the bike like lights, horn, start ckt. Test the continuity of all the black-white wires by using an ohmmeter. Disconnect the wires from the neg. (-) terminal of the battery. Then clip one lead of the ohmmeter to the disconnected (-) wire. Then using the other test probe, test all the other black-white wires that you can find for continuity (zero resistance). You don't have to unwrap the cable to do this.
:cheers:
Quote from: Soaringjust like the guy in the thread I am new to using a multimeter. Do I understand it right that I just unplug the coil on both sides and connect one side to one multimeter connector and the other to the other and just write down the number it gives me?
Yep, along with the range that the selector switch is set to. (Just in case. :) )
Quote from: Soaringin the manual to the multimeter it says use the setting just above what you expect to read.. so what do I expect to get?
I thought the numbers were fairly obvious in
this post ... and
this one ... and
this one. :dunno:
Quote from: Soaringalso about running on one cylinder, the other one actually kind of works... as long as you open the throttle, otherwise it dies after 2-3 turns. Does it mean that it is not an electrical problem?
No ... that is how mine acted for 5 months, until I found the bad connection to one of the signal generator coils. (But there's not enough data yet to say that it's
definitely an electrical problem, either.)
Quote from: Soaringfinally my turn signals don't blink, just just turn on or off, can it affect how the bike runs or am I getting too paranoid? :roll:
I can't think of a way that a faulty turn signal circuit could affect how the engine runs. Sounds like you might have a bad blinker unit or even a bad bulb or connection. (I'll leave those electrical details to
John Bates or another volunteer.)
Quote from: Soaring.................. my turn signals don't blink, just just turn on or off, can it affect how the bike runs or am I getting too paranoid? :roll:
The turn signal ckt does not normally affect how the bike runs. Only if a prior owner had messed with the ckt could this happen. If the bulbs light but do not blink then the relay is bad. Get a Wagner 552 (or equivalent) at your local auto parts store.
:cheers:
kerry,
ok, sorry I was a little sloppy about the threads, just wanted to make sure I am not going to break anything. Now, I got these readings:
coils: left 22.7, 5.1
right 22.5 5
so I figured these are ok
I looked under the suzuki cover, everything clean there
I tested the wires in the 4 wire connector got got 350 and 349
so I figured these are ok too.
Now I cannot locate the three wire connector you were talking about. the links in the thread you referred me to point to nonexistent threads, so I cannot see what you are talking about...
looking forward for more wisdom from you :) and thanks a lot for helping me out, I feel way more confident now
sorry kerry, found the damn thing right after sending the previous message, was hidden behind a lot of stuff.. anyway, this one seems bad, reads 1854 and 1837 on a 2000 ohm setting. what is the next step?
also, b/w 3 and 4 connectors get zero resistance and b/w inp and outp of 4 connector get zero resist, so looks like my problem is the 3 wire connect... what do I do?
Sounds like you found the right connector :thumb: but here's the photo from the missing thread anyway. Four-wire connector on the left, 3-wire connector (opened) on the right:
(http://www.bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_0040_SigGenConnectors.jpg)
To help me get the clearest picture of what you've got, could you copy and paste the checklist from my last post on page 2 of that thread (http://gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=45007#45007), and fill it out?
Meanwhile, my post just previous to that one (http://gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=45001#45001) addresses the "what do I do now?" question. Once you're SURE that there is a problem in a connector or a wire, you go about bypassing the problem area with a new connector and/or length of wire.
ok, now I htink I got confused ..
3 wire conn: these 18XX numbers are for the side of the connector that goes to the black box (ignition control?) the other end reads 351 351
4 wire conn: the wires that go down (to signal generator?) read 351 352, the other end (that goes and gets wrapped together with other wires) reads 1836 and 1854
so it looks like I am fine here.. or am I still confused?
If I'm picturing everything right, it
does sound like you are OK as far as the signal generator circuits are concerned. With the 4-wire connector snapped together you should get pretty close to the same readings from the opened 3-wire connector.
350 / 349 sounds pretty close to 351/351, and they're all well within spec. :thumb:
You've just eliminated one of the possibilities! :)
Now about your ignition coil readings:
Quote from: Soaringcoils: left 22.7, 5.1
right 22.5 5
If (as I assume) you got the 20-ish readings on a high-ohm scale and the 5-ish readings on a low scale, you're OK here too.
Hmmmmm.
ok here's what I think I've got:
3-wire connector
MAKE SURE you're taking the reading on the half of the connector that's attached to the wires that go DOWN to the 4-wire connector, and not back UP to the wiring harness!
IF I GOT THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE CONNECTOR (THIS SIDE GOES WITH OTER WIRES):
Between Black/blue & Brown: __351___ ohms (Should be 240-420)
Between Black/blue & Green/White: __351___ ohms (Should be 240-420)
THE OTHER SIDE (THAT GOES INTO THE BLACK BOX RIGHT NEXT TO IT, IGNITION CONTROL?) READS 18XX (LIKE 1836 AND 1843 OR SOMETHING)
Wires between the 3-wire connector and the 4-wire connector
Touch your test leads to the little metal crimpers where the wires attach to the connectors.
Black/blue wire: __0___ ohms (Should be near 0)
Brown wire: __0___ohms (Should be near 0)
Green/white wire: __0___ ohms (Should be near 0)
Between input and output points on (snapped together) 4-wire connector
Touch your test leads to the little metal crimpers where the wires attach to the connector.
Black/blue wire: _0____ ohms (Should be near 0)
Brown wire: __0___ohms (Should be near 0)
Green/white wire: __0___ ohms (Should be near 0)
Between different wires on the (popped apart) 4-wire connector
MAKE SURE you're taking the reading on the half of the connector that's attached to the wires that go DOWN to the signal generator coils, and not back UP to the 3-wire connector!
IF I GOT THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE CONNECTOR:
Between Black/blue & Brown: __351___ ohms (Should be 240-420)
Between Black/blue & Green/White: __351___ ohms (Should be 240-420)
THE OTHER SIDE READS 18XX 18XX (I THINK IT WAS 1856 AND 1834 OR SOMETHING)
Thanks for doing that - it confirmed my mental picture. (See my last post.)
Time to revisit the symptoms and think up some more possibilities....
If (as I assume) you got the 20-ish readings on a high-ohm scale and the 5-ish readings on a low scale, you're OK here too.
sorry about that, yeah 22 is on 20K ohm, 5 is on 200 ohm
if you need any more info from me just let me know :) I feel like a real electrician after spending the whole morning with this meter :)
Quote from: SoaringI feel like a real electrician after spending the whole morning with this meter :)
Just for that, please accept my Wizard of Oz-like gift: A custom avatar! :)
:o ... :? ... :) ... :mrgreen: ... :thumb: it rocks! now I look like a spider sitting in the center of all things weaving its web with it's everreaching connectors... soon my motorcycle will be under my total control ... unless other spiders get to it before I am able to fix it. these little creatures keep nesting in the damn thing all the time :)
as for the serious matters, the bike also would die if I try to take the choke back after starting the bike... no matter how long I wait for it to warm up. I don't know if it helps, but I guess any new info is useful.
OK, some more questions:
* You confirmed that your spark plugs are sparking, but what can you tell us about their color? (See
this chart (http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_SparkPlugChart.jpg) for comparison purposes.)
* When the bike is running, does it run any better at higher throttle positions? I'm thinking that maybe one of your pilot jets is clogged from sitting so long. But opening up the throttle would change the main fuel source from the pilot jet to the main (which is much harder to clog up because of the larger hole).
* As a follow-up, what kind of cleaning did you do on the jets when you had the carbs apart? Did you remove them, soak them in carb cleaner, blow through them, etc?
* The last area I can think of right now is possible vacuum leaks. There are multiple possibilities here, but since only one carb seems to be affected... Do you remember seeing the tiny O-ring when you took the "lid" off of the carb? I'm talking about item 26 in the diagram on this Ron Ayers page (http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/300_0027/carburetor/carburetor.cfm?man=su&groupid=3090&parent=3070). If that little guy goes missing, weird things can happen....[/list:u]
Speaking of O-rings, are you aware of the Carb Rebuild Kit available from PartsNMore (https://www.partsnmore.com/motorcycle-carb-rebuild-kits.php?make=suzuki&category=carb_kits)?
(https://www.partsnmore.com/image_lg/48-1947.jpg)
ok,
1) spark plugs were sparking and they looked ok, but not taking any chances I got new ones, NGK that the manual recommends, measured them to .03..I think, anyway measured them to what manual recommends and put them in
2) I am not sure what do you mean by running any better. If only one spark is connected then it runs ok on left cyl. throttle or not. On the right side it runs only with throttle open, but dies otherwise. when both plugs are connected I am not sure how can you judge. Anyway, I in fact cleaned the carbs (because I thought that's the problem as the bike was sitting for two years and I had rust in the tank, so I cleaned and sealed the tank about a year ago, but cleaned the carbs only a few days ago.). Somehow the main jets were 130 instead of 122.5 recommended by the book. So in the end I went to the shop and got myself new main jets 122.5 but they didn't have 37.5 pilots so they promised to get it in a couple of days, but for now it's old pilots I can see through them and the wholes look about the same size for both, so I don't think there's a problem there... if anything the right pilot (not working side) looks better then the left one. I also corrected the float level (and hopefully did it the right way).
when I was cleaning carbs I took main, pilot and needle jets out and soaked them in a spray cleaner (just sprayed enough in the plastic cap to cover all of them), also sprayed all over the carb after removing all the rubber parts. then I washed it in the water and blew with a canned air (dust off). The only thing I think I didn't take out was the small jet in the air intake? I think they call it pilot air jet.. not sure though.. but it was so small and didn't want to come out so I figured I won't risk it.
as for the rings, both of them are in place although one of them looks a little screwed up (ALTHOUGH, I am not sure if it's the onle on the left or the one on the right...) it is whole on the inside but the outer edge seems a little ripped off. don't know how much of an issue that is.. was thinking of getting a carb rebuid kit, but it would take quite a few time I guess if I get it online.. can i get a similar ring in the hardware store?
and I am aware of partsnmore, but these guys are in canada as far as I understand and I am not sure how long it will take this thing to get to me.. they also need a $35 minimum and two kits are only $24 and I am not sure if I need anything else...
Well, for
Quote from: Soaringa newbie mechanic with no experience
I'd say you're doing just fine. :thumb:
"running better": I just wondered if the engine "took off" and ran smooth at higher throttle positions, possibly indicating a clear path through the main jet as opposed to a possibly blocked path through the pilot. But it sounds like you were plenty thorough. I would almost expect a "newbie mechanic" to have cleaned the float bowl and called it good.... :roll:
I feel your pain with the long shipping times, etc. You could certainly bring one of those O-rings into a hardware store and see what they have. All it needs to do is prevent air flow without being so thick that you can't seat the cap back on the carb.
Also, I would be curious to see what happens if you block off the vacuum connection (to the ON/RES/PRI switch) at the left carb and run with the switch set to PRIme.
Oops - never mind. I just noticed that it's the RIGHT side that's not working. Still... :dunno:
well I guess I don't have much experience to hear if it "runs better"... rpms get higher that's about how much I can tell :)
and as for "nebie mechanic"... if only you knew how much time, reading, worries and messed up bolt heads that cleaning cost me... and guys from the local store helped me take out the pilot jets as I was dead scared of messing it up... anyway it was kinda nightmarish, but it would all be good if it helped... and I still started with float bowls :) got a lot of crap out of it.
so do I need to block the vacum connection to the left carb? and do you mean plug the hole on the hose or on the carb? and what other stuff I could check if this doesn't help? looks like there are no more electrical check I could hope for... :dunno:
and that thoroughness I guess kind of shows how desperate I am to get this thing running... :(
if it wont run with the choke on at all, It sounds like you are running way too rich-- what color are the spark plugs ? have you checked the float level with the u-tube method on the how to page? I would bet that it is a fuel related. do you have access to an air compressor? in the front of the carb there is an air bleed (small hole). My bike ad been sitting for 7 years when I got it and these holes were clogged. it caused similar symptoms to what you are having. it took several cleanings to get these cleaned out ( and lots of air pressure)
Quote from: Soaringthe bike also would die if I try to take the choke back after starting the bike... no matter how long I wait for it to warm up.
Oops ... I understood this to mean that the bike would ONLY run with the choke on. But from your second post in the thread I see that I got it backwards.
Are you
sure the plugs look OK? :?
ok, now english is not my native language so you got to forgive me :) I am not sure what's the right way to put it, but here's the deal. when you start the bike you got to turn the choke on? anyway you pull it towards you... to make it richer, right? and in this condition the bike runs... then after it warmed up you should take it back/ turn off/or whatever you call it, push the choke from you, right? well, this is the point where my bike dies. you can move the choke back about half the way but if you do it all the way the bike dies... I am not sure if I explained it in a good way, but I guess here's where "newbie mechanic with no experience" comes into play :)
ktrim,
As far as I understand you got me wrong on the choke issue. My understanding is that you turn the choke on in the beginning and then turn it off when you ride. If this is right (or if you just use first sentence as a reference of my thought pattern :)) then what I was trying to say is that bike runs only with the choke on.
I don't have an access to air compressor and I am not sure which holes you are talking about, is there a picture where you can show it to me?
and no, I haven't done the test as I don't have a transparent hose, but I'll try to get one and make this test
ok guys, here I am again. Just got the hose and did the test on float level like in how to pages. what I seem to be getting is that the level on the working side is way too high and on not working side is about .1" lower. at the same time I did my best to set the level correctly when assembling the carbs. how can this be and what should I do?
the holes I was talking about are at the throat of the carbs where the connect to the airbox, I believe there are 2 holes on each carb, tehy are very small. I would send a picture but I do not have carbs available. but any way I had to use a smal piece of wire and lots of carb cleaner to get the gunk out of mine. the only way to adjust the float level is pull the bowls off and bend the tabs. its kind of trial and error to get it correct
ktrim, you must be talking about the holes that are visible in the 7th and 8th photos on Marc's Cleaning and Rebuilding Your GS500 Carbs (http://www.gstwin.com/carb_work.htm) page.
If I understand it right, you are talking about two small holes where there's a small jet inside of one (I believe they call it air pilot jet?) Am I right? If so, how do I know the problem is there. I mean, if it took you a few cleanings before you got it, how did you know the problem is there in the first place?
As for the floats, is it actually possible to get the level perfectly in line with the gasket? Also, I did the test with the bike on a side stand and now I think that one of the carbs was too high and one a little low just because of the bike leaning to one side.. can it be the case and what's the right way to measure (side stand, center stand, just keeping it vertical, or something else?)
thanks!
On the centerstand. :thumb:
I am not a guru like kerry but did you replace the plugs? That bites me every few years on cars and bikes.
check the float on center stand. Kerry is right it is the two holes in pict 7 and 8 of the link he posted. the holes are low speed air bleeds. when the slides are closed air is drawn thru them and siphons fuel out of the bowls. this also affects low -mid throttle. on mine it would not run with the choke off unless i got the rpms really high and kept them there by feathering the throttle. if i tried to hold it at any rpm it would slowly die but could be brought back by feathering the throttle.
ok, I think I am going crazy... I went to check the level on center stand and the levels are in fact very close to the gasket, about .1". Does it make a difference?
now I start the bike and I am actually able to turn off the choke after a while and it runs fine. so I figured if bike is going to fix itself I'll go and check whether both cyliders work... and what I find out is that the one that was working fine works even better and the one that wouldn't work without throttle now has no spark at all :(
Here's a comparison of what I had before and what I have now:
before: wouldn't run without choke, bike runs on left cylinder but hardly makes it if you reconnect the left spark sound improves dramatically. Now the bike runs on the left cylider only if you apply some throttle to keep the rpm high enough.
now: bike runs without choke, bike runs on left cylinder beautifully even without the right one, but now the right one doesn't have a spark at all.
and I didn't do anything to the bike as far as I can remember....
any ideas? I am totally lost :dunno: