OK, I'm new to this, however, it seems to me that I can shift smoother (up and down) WITHOUT using the clutch and blipping throttle, than using it.
Is this the way it should be? Or am I just stranger than the normal rider? (Doesn't make sense to me).
Also am I damaging something by doing this?
i don't know the details, but I've often read you can upshift without the clutch no problem, but downshifting without it can damage stuff.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/shifting.html
I was just reading about that yesterday, I'm not very good at it without the clutch myself
I'm not an expert but after one year of riding and trying both methods I conclude that one should use the method that gives the smoothest transition.
I usually get a smoother shift by using the clutch.
(My opinion could change after more time in the saddle. )
:cheers:
I think racers shift up without the clutch but use the clutch shifting down.
For gentle riding I will use the clutch but for faster acceleration I will not, maybe a good Idea to use it for 1st to 2nd so you don't get neutral by mistake.
You CAN do damage shifting w/o the clutch if you "load up" on the shifter too much. If you do it right, it should be fine. With a wet clutch you'll keep the oil cleaner the less you use the clutch. I still use the clutch most of the time.
From http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/shifting.html :
Quotef you want a graphic demonstration of some bad shifting, simply pull the clutch in, shift to neutral and then coast for a couple of seconds with the throttle shut off before upshifting or downshifting. Notice how much stiffer the shift lever feels, how slow the transmission is to shift and how clunky it sounds. It might even make a grinding noise as the dogs fight to engage. One example here should be enough, OK? The reason is the two transmission shafts, main and counter, are now way out of synchronization with one another. The countershaft is still being driven by the rear wheel while the mainshaft is being spun by the engine, but only at idle rpm...
So have you figured out why your bike clunks when going into first gear from neutral while stopped? Yep, the countershaft is stopped while the mainshaft is being spun by the engine. Your oil-bath clutch has some drag, especially when the engine is cold and doesn�t disengage all the way.
Did the author suggest here that changing from neutral to first while stopped is unnecessarily hard on engagement dogs / gears or did I misread this?
C
Use the clutch going down- Shifting up works because as you let off the throttle you unload the engine. Shifting down, that's a tough thing to do. Use the clutch, blip the throttle and let it out when it matches.
Shifting up is easy- especially if you're running through the gears super fast. Although I always use the clutch coming out of first.
By preloading the shifter with your toe before shifting, you'll notice that you'll only need or use about a 1/4 of the clutch you'd normally use. It's more like tapping the clutch than pulling the clutch.
I've heard about this....so I tried it the other day. When I normally shift instead of pulling the clutch in I just tried to shift up and the shifter wouldn't budge. Only tried it once then went back to my usual way of doing it. Can someone explain what I'm supposed to do? Thanks :thumb: :thumb:
Quote from: tussey on January 24, 2007, 06:01:37 PM
I've heard about this....so I tried it the other day. When I normally shift instead of pulling the clutch in I just tried to shift up and the shifter wouldn't budge. Only tried it once then went back to my usual way of doing it. Can someone explain what I'm supposed to do? Thanks :thumb: :thumb:
I used to do this all the time on my Bandit 400 when I had it. Became second nature. The way I did it, as described to me by a bunch of Track day folks, is to gently apply pressure on the shift lever with your foot while still accelerating. Then, when you want to shift, just roll out of the throttle, not alot, or it will really upset the chassis, but just a little, and it should literally just pop into gear, just like that. And for me at least, at lower speeds, we are talking about just barely moving your wrist, you'll feel it if you practice.
Benefits? Wicked fast upshifting if you get it right(takes time). Reduced clutch wear, really though, if you don't use it all the time, I doubt it makes a HUGE difference.
Downsides? Wicked fast upshifting, makes you wanna go faster just so you can do it more. 8)
Steve
On the GS, I got to the point were I could shift without the clutch VERY smoothly.
I only opted to do it when I really needed to accelerate fast without the hassle of pulling the clutch. ie: passing on the highway.
Like sclay said tussey... Like this....
When you're *about* to shift, put up-pressure on the shifter (You don't need much), then you "blip" the throttle and it'll let you slide it into gear.
It works best when you're under hard accelleration... I have a hard time getting a smooth shift when I'm going slow... So, I use the clutch for those.
You will have to practice it... And if you don't trash your trans, you'll get good at it and be able to shift fast-as-hell. :thumb:
... all that, and then one day make a post like me "help my gearbox makes strange noises".
Sure racers do it, but they get new gearbox every race and your GS will be stuck with it for em ... 10 years?
It's very simple, trashing your bike for a bit more performance. Your choice.
But this is only my opinion, no hard facts. ;)
Quote from: domas on January 25, 2007, 11:17:14 PM
... all that, and then one day make a post like me "help my gearbox makes strange noises".
Sure racers do it, but they get new gearbox every race and your GS will be stuck with it for em ... 10 years?
actually its far more than just highly sponsored racers. lots of us trackday hacks and club racers do it. I have 14k miles on my bike, mostly clutchless upshifting (even some clutchless downshifting) and still going strong.
I can be much smoother clutchless, but thats only on hard accellerations, not around town riding. For that I *barely* use the clutch (as in, barely pull it in just enough to let the shifter snick into the next gear).
if you preload the shifter and when you want to shift just *barely* roll off the throttle for a split second, then back on the throttle the gear shift will slide right in. you dont "blip" the throttle (rvertigo :icon_rolleyes:). If you're riding around town or commuting its not likely to be useful to you. in the canyons or on the track it'll be much more useful.
btw-holy thread resurrection batman...
Quote from: pantablo on January 25, 2007, 11:33:06 PMyou dont "blip" the throttle (rvertigo :icon_rolleyes:).
OK... Reverse Blip.... Anti-Blip...... Quick down, then back up....... Full, Less than full, then full again......
I call it a blip... Meaning a small change. I did neglect to mention that is was a DOWN THROTTLE change. :dunno_white:
And... I clutchless shift every day... 'cause my tendonitis hurts like hell... :dunno_white:
It might be easier to think of it this way...
imagine your throttle "off".
roll the throttle... I'd say probably around 1/8" - 1/4...
THAT'S where you should be able to "bump" the shift lever upwards. "Slide" might be a better word...
Quote from: pantablo on January 25, 2007, 11:33:06 PM
btw-holy thread resurrection batman...
+1
Wow, glad to see everyone is still here helping others.
I still do it myself, just seems easier and so much smoother to me.
Jim
Quote from: pantablo on January 25, 2007, 11:33:06 PM
actually its far more than just highly sponsored racers. lots of us trackday hacks and club racers do it. I have 14k miles on my bike, mostly clutchless upshifting (even some clutchless downshifting) and still going strong.
Is it on your old GS or on the 600? I do believe that new supersports gearboxes are build for that. Maybe i just have too little faith in GS technology :dunno_white:
i'd be willing to bet many of us have shifted without the clutch and didn't even realize we done it. for me the first time i did it was just cause i forgot to squeze . my left hand is normaly just restin on the wheel (stering wheel)
for me, ever sense i sterted driving, i'v driven manual everything mainly my truck. i dont bearly use the clutch in that anymore eather.
likewise in a truck or on a bike you bascily do everything the same as when using the clutch.
what do you do normaly
you roll on, look at the tac/feel the bike/-whatever you personaly do to know it is time to shift, then simotaenously -(if ya havent realized yet i suck at spelling)- roll off gas & squize in clutch, then shift, and back on the gas ect.
clutchless the only diff. to me is no squizing
note: unless you are way stronger than you realize you can apply quite a good amount of pressure with your foot to the shift lever and it wont do a thing till you "blip" "goose" "un-blip" "roll" whatever you want to call it. the throttle
Upshifting clutchless is very useful in hard acceleration, its definatly smoother and it doesn't lag the bike as there is very little time without the engine powering you forwards. When going slow i always use the clutch, in hard accelration situations i may choose to shift up clutchlessly. I always use the clutch when shifting down, especially on a new bike or a powerful bike as if you get the rev matching wrong when you shift down your revs skyrocket but also the back wheel can lock up into a skid.
I've never tried to downshift without the clutch... And I don't plan to try.
Even when I was driving my F.I.L.'s diesel truck and he insisted that I don't use the clutch, I found it easy to upshift, but I couldn't downshift. :dunno_white:
you can downshift without the clutch, just have to do it exactly backwards of upshifting. You decelerate to a point then blip the throttle up a little. The bad thing is that it can jerk the rear wheel, which is bad esp if turning. Thus i shift up all the time clutchless but never down. I like to control how the clutch catches going down to keep myself from doing the asphalt shuffle :laugh: :laugh:
So I tried it today, worked on the first try, pretty badass. Although I need alot of work I did it a few more times and a few were smooth most were violent jerks.
I'm wondering is it smoother to clutchless only under hard acceleration. The bike seemed to jump more when I was just crusining and wanted to upshift to the next gear and seemed smoother when I was pulling pretty hard.
:2guns:
For me, it's definitely smoother under hard acceleration.
hard acceleration works best. however anything above 8k rpm seems to be ok. Any less and it will want to jerk and you will have to use more force to shift. I don't like to use force to clutchless shift while just cruising so I use the clutch. I really don't want to replace the tranny internals anytime soon.
My experience with this is that the shift is always smooth if done properly. At some speeds and engine speeds it does seem that the window of opportunity is bigger than others. Downshifting without the clutch is not a problem, it just requires more thought and you tend to unsettle the back tire doing so, which in most situations is manageable, but why risk it (unless you are riding one handed because you didn't feel like finishing your milkshake at Hardee's, and it is only a few blocks home, a story for another time, though)
Let's face it the GS is no speed demon, even if you get on it really hard you won't be setting any acceleration records. However, it can be fun to let the little shetland pony stretch its nubby legs. So, if you are just cruisin' around town use the clutch and don't be a lazy turd. When you want to feel the full fury of the twin japanese hamsters go clutchless. I would recomend learning to do this in a somewhat controlled situation. I know from experience that it can be disconcerting to try to upshift without the clutch under hard accelleration and not make it into the next gear. I don't know about your bike, but my little GS engine breaks pretty hard, especially at higher rpms.
shetland pony... nubby legs... twin japanese hamsters... LOL!
whatever, MY gs is badASS.
I tried the clutchless shift and it was rough/jerky and made me cringe. Maybe I'm not doing it right. However in a escape & evade or hot pursuit situation it could come in handy. maybe I'll keep practicing this one.
It definately is a skill that improves with a little practice. Even around town where I rarely get above 70-kph, I very rarely use the clutch unless accelerating very slowly. As far as decelerating, still clutchless, and very seldom do I even feel that I've changed down a gear, even going into 1st. Of course, I'm usually doing a fairly gentle slow down around town, definately not maximum braking. The key is knowing when the revs match for each gear... nothing to stress over as it just comes naturally with a little practice.
When you're all old and broken like me, your tendonitis convinces you that your trans will be just fine when you don't use the clutch. :laugh:
Today had some flawless clutchless from 3rd to 4th ... couple times felt very natural.
but 2nd to 3rd was a little rougher. I'd rev it to 7k and ease off throttle, it wouldn't go, rev it higher, then it'd work roughly. Jerk the whole bike.
On the good ones, I was in 3rd going 45-50 indicated, revved to 6k or 7k, decelerated and it shifted smooth into 4th about 3k-5k. 2nd gear was a little different. More practice.
I still screw up 1-2 sometimes... LLT and Clutchless Shifting don't mix. :laugh:
Quote from: PapaFox on January 30, 2007, 12:03:21 AM
It definately is a skill that improves with a little practice. Even around town where I rarely get above 70-kph, I very rarely use the clutch unless accelerating very slowly. As far as decelerating, still clutchless, and very seldom do I even feel that I've changed down a gear, even going into 1st. Of course, I'm usually doing a fairly gentle slow down around town, definately not maximum braking. The key is knowing when the revs match for each gear... nothing to stress over as it just comes naturally with a little practice.
How can you match the revs if you are not using the clutch? Or you mean match the revs by changing speed?
The term for what you guys are doing (clutchless shifting) is called 'power shifting'. The conventional wisdom is that it increases the wear and tear on the gears/tranny. It can be a useful skill to have (especially if your clutch cable snaps mid-ride like my R6 did once), but for me the negatives far outweigh the positives, so I don't ever do it.
Quote from: domas on January 30, 2007, 10:59:47 PM
Quote from: PapaFox on January 30, 2007, 12:03:21 AM
As far as decelerating, still clutchless, and very seldom do I even feel that I've changed down a gear, even going into 1st. Of course, I'm usually doing a fairly gentle slow down around town, definately not maximum braking. The key is knowing when the revs match for each gear...
How can you match the revs if you are not using the clutch? Or you mean match the revs by changing speed?
Well, I think the technique for clutchless
downshifts has been misstated in this thread. Instead of shifting when rolling off the throttle--as with upshifts--the downshift is made while
rolling on the throttle so the revs are heading in the right direction to make up the difference. It's not easy to do smoothly and, as previously stated, is useful for riding with a broken clutch cable and little else. Not useful for sportriding unless you like flirting with disaster. :cookoo:
Quote from: TarzanBoy on January 30, 2007, 11:01:45 PM
The term for what you guys are doing (clutchless shifting) is called 'power shifting'.
I believe
power shifting is a level more crude than clutchless shifting. IOW, don't even back off the throttle. :cookoo:
I'd think it'd be rough on the clutch too. It can't be good for it. Definitely makes more noise unless its done absolutely perfect, and even then there's a bit of a jerk. If only my bike could talk.
This is a good trick for stoplight racing against hoodlums. I am compelled to try it a little more but if conventional wisdom says its hard on the clutch then I'll stick with normal.
It's not hard on the clutch... You don't even use the clutch.
Some say that it's hard on your gearbox... But, I wouldn't take *certain people's* "conventional wisdom" on face value. ;)
just seems like with that sudden somewhat violent jerk/snap/pop that tends to happen it would wear the dogs or whatever the f is inside my bike faster. Still, I did it today, and it was fun.
Wow, 7 replies initially, then, more than a year and a half later, 30 new replies, Very interesting ! :laugh:
btw: With practice there isn't any more "sudden somewhat violent jerk/snap/pop" when doing this, than there is shifting while using the clutch without practice.
To each his own.
Peace and ride safe.
Jim
Its not hard on the gearbox or clutch. As Rvertigo said, you don't even use the clutch. Motorcylce trannys are designed to be shifted while in motion, particularly forward motion. That is why it is often times hard to downshift after you have stopped if you didn't do it while slowing before the stop. If using the right technique it will be smooth and you will hear a click into gear, much like that of a clutched shift.
I have to say, I think it will screw things up if you don't do it right........... Like forcing it up (as I've done a few times).
The first time I shifted without the clutch, I hit a bump (read: "Jump") and flipped to the next gear without knowing it. :laugh:
Anyway... I'll stop blabbing on.
I just skimmed through this so if someone already said it sorry for saying it again.
I watced a show on AMA Racing. The bikes those guys use are so high tech. When they shift up, no clutch, the computer dissengages power to the transmission just for the split second it takes to shift. So really they dont have to use a clutch since the computer is doing that work for them.
Quote from: RVertigo on February 01, 2007, 12:52:57 PM
I have to say, I think it will screw things up if you don't do it right........... Like forcing it up (as I've done a few times).
The first time I shifted without the clutch, I hit a bump (read: "Jump") and flipped to the next gear without knowing it. :laugh:
Anyway... I'll stop blabbing on.
Blab away cause you are correct, sloppy shifts kill trannys whether or not you use the clutch. Of course you knew that :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: TarzanBoy on January 30, 2007, 11:01:45 PM
The term for what you guys are doing (clutchless shifting) is called 'power shifting'. The conventional wisdom is that it increases the wear and tear on the gears/tranny. It can be a useful skill to have (especially if your clutch cable snaps mid-ride like my R6 did once), but for me the negatives far outweigh the positives, so I don't ever do it.
I always thought "power shifting" was pretty much keeping it WOT and shifting through the gears. You'd have to use the clutch at least slightly since you can't really get it out of gear while the transmissionis loaded. Clutchless shifting is rolling off the throttle and while the transmission doesn't have a load on it, you change gears.
Clutchless shifting does not add extra wear and tear to the gears or transmission. It will if you're forcing things or doing it completely wrong - but the same can be said with regular shifting with the clutch.
http://www.f6rider.com/VRCC/tech/trans101.htm This link, which was posted already, has some good explinations.
Ah an old cotroversial post revived.....
I agree with your powershifting explanation, you hold the throttle open (hopefully you have a rev limiter) then jab the clutch, slam it into the next gear, and drop the clutch. You get an extra little boost of speed, but it's hard on EVERYTHING especially the transmission.
If you smoothly do clutchless upshifts it dosn't hurt anything, just roll off the gas and click it into the next gear. Downshifting is much harder to do smothly and there's really no reason to do it but if you do it just right it's probally okay.
Motorcycles don't have any synchros so basically if it's smooth and it dosn't make any grinding noises then you're okay. Cars have synchros and even if you don't hear any grinding noises, your synchros are probally getting worn out really quick unless you match revs perfectly.