Not me I have a 05 GS500F and I love it. But my nephew just finished his MSF course and wants to get a GSXR600 well any sportbike thats a 600. Whats bad is that an instructor at the MSF class told him that he could start out on a 600 as long it was an older one. Now it seems thats all he's interested in. What are some good arguments I could use to maybe change his mind?
I looked up the power of some 1993 600 a CBR I believe and it was still almost 100 horsepower. It was somewhere in the 90's I think. I don't know the weight though. So that's not that far off from how they are today. I'm a newb so take what I say with a grain of salt. It's just something I remember reading lately.
If they would just make smaller bikes that looked as good as a 600 and up, more people would start smaller and therefore more people would stay riding. That's just my guess though.
Insurance cost convinced me not to get a modern 600, maybe it'll work for him. :cheers:
If you can't deter him from 600 "Sport Bikes" maybe you can suggest a SV650 with full fairings as a compromise.
If they made small displacement bikes that looked as good as the bigger ones, the companies would lose 1000's of dollars. Unfortunately.
I would go with the insurance-cost route if you want to talk him into something smaller. He is obviously fairly young if he is your nephew right? A 600 is going to have a pretty hefty insurance cost for sure. And he could skirt it with just getting liability, but then ask him what will happen when he drops it? He won't have anything to ride. And I bet anyone would rather ride a 500 than nothing at all. Atleast with a smaller bike he would be able to have comp/collision so if something does happen, he will have something to ride and won't be SOL.
Yeah just tell him he's on his own insurance wise, that will make him change his mind.
Tell him you really don't feel like watching him wreck in front of you, or cleaning up the mess, cutting short a nice day to ride, and having to drive him home on the back of your bike.
Quote from: blue05twinWhats bad is that an instructor at the MSF class told him that he could start out on a 600 as long it was an older one.
Where the &^%$ did they get that guy?
They said the same thing at the MSF I took.. Couple long time riders were teaching the class.
They miss a chance of teaching a rather good lesson, which is that the balance of a bike's weight, power, handling, and braking is what's important in selecting a bike, not displacement.
I know my MSF instructor said most 600cc sportbikes are too much for a new rider. He said that if you want to go 600 or maybe a little more you should stay with a cruser or standard motorcycle. Myself I just wanted to ride for a long time and figured I would start small and slowly work my way to a 600 or 750 maybe. Not to mention insurance is aweful for anything that is considered a sportbike (sadly this is what the GS is considered to be but much less than any 600cc).
Quote from: RoadstergalQuote from: blue05twinWhats bad is that an instructor at the MSF class told him that he could start out on a 600 as long it was an older one.
Where the &^%$ did they get that guy?
I took the MSF at a sort-of-rural tech school. The instructors had to be open-minded, because much of the class was children and wives of riders, and they were going to do their own thing after class no matter what the instructors said.
When the instructors said that we needed a helmet, one of the ladies borrowed her friend's husband's spare helmet, because "she was only going to wear it for the class anyways" :nono: . The instructor didn't bother commenting; he was busy discussing footwear with a teenage girl:
instructor: "you have to wear leather shoes that come above the ankle"
girl: "can I wear fashion boots?"
instructor: "as long as they're leather and cover the ankle"
Sure enough, she showed-up for range day in leather platform boots, like she was going clubbing.
Quote from: zleiInsurance cost convinced me not to get a modern 600, maybe it'll work for him. :cheers:
If you can't deter him from 600 "Sport Bikes" maybe you can suggest a SV650 with full fairings as a compromise.
Why would and sv650 be better?
I have ridden a 1987 cbr600f and found it very easy to ride, the sv650 would be just as fast. I don't think the sports bike are dangerous it's the nut riding them thats the problem. If he is sensible he should be o.k. but if he is a nut then there may be a problem.
um....sv650 vs modern day 600 supersport = no difference??....dude.....put the crack pipe down.....HUGE DIFFERENCE....k??....
first lets just look at the engine.....SV is a v-twin....not an inline 4.....SV gets about 75 horses......SS 600 gets about 105 horses.....
....SV isn't a track tuned machine available in a streetbike model.....its a whole different monster entirely.....the SV is a great starter bike, it is a great middle of the road bike, it's a great bike for swapping out parts and then taking to the track.....
but there is no comparison between the SV and a SS 600......
additionally, the SV will save you TONS in insurance over something like a CBR600rr or GSX-r 600.....my rates are now $375 for the year (full coverage).....which is part of the reason I got the SV.....my ins comp classified my '00 Kat 750 as a SS bike, my ins went from about $700/yr to almost $4k yr......
....until you've actually been on a stock SV, please refrain from making ignorant comments about what kind of bike it is....
The top post said old sports bike not modern day sports bike. I have not ridden a sv650 but I have ridden an old sports bike and found it easy to ride so it was not really an ignorant comment.
A new person isn't going to use anywhere NEAR the capability of a 600 supersport. If they are..they are GOING to wreck. period. It took me 2 years to outgrow the GS and that was after 12,000miles and a couple of track days.
A friend of mine wanted a ninja 1000 for his first bike. We were finally able to talk him down by comparing the 0-60 of say...a GS500 to a corvette...which I don't have the numbers on the top of my head..
ukchickenlover has got it right.
Quote from: mastrindum....sv650 vs modern day 600 supersport = no difference??....dude.....put the crack pipe down.....HUGE DIFFERENCE....k??......
not so huge between an OLDER sportbike and an SV.
Quote from: mastrindfirst lets just look at the engine.....SV is a v-twin....not an inline 4.....SV gets about 75 horses......SS 600 gets about 105 horses......
87-89 cbr600 had 83 hp. not much more than an SV and the SV will feel faster to a newbie because of the vtwin.
Quote from: mastrind....SV isn't a track tuned machine available in a streetbike model.....its a whole different monster entirely.....the SV is a great starter bike, it is a great middle of the road bike, it's a great bike for swapping out parts and then taking to the track......
the SV isnt a great starter bike for everyone. it still has too much power IMO. However, I have been known to recommend the SV, as well as the older cbr's to certain riders, particularly those that have ridden dirt bikes lots.
Quote from: mastrindbut there is no comparison between the SV and a SS 600......
damn straight. but we're talking older cbr's. Although the 90+ cbrs were still pulling nearly 100hp it was in a heavier, slower package than todays 100hp cbrs. Still fast. too fast for most to start on.
Quote from: mastrindadditionally, the SV will save you TONS in insurance over something like a CBR600rr or GSX-r 600.....my rates are now $375 for the year (full coverage).....which is part of the reason I got the SV.....my ins comp classified my '00 Kat 750 as a SS bike, my ins went from about $700/yr to almost $4k yr......
my insurance from the gs500 to the cbr600RR went up $150/yr for full coverage...
Quote from: mastrind....until you've actually been on a stock SV, please refrain from making ignorant comments about what kind of bike it is....
please refrain from making an ass of yourself before reading the post thoroughly.
Oddly I dont consider that higher power as a serious risk ... its the fact that that power curve is rather steep and at a high rpm ... if it were gradual and smooth ... it will scare you straight right when you dont have it wound out for you to refrain from going and looking for it ... New 600 sport bikes make you wind it out looking for that power ... and when you find it its waaaaay too much ... an SV shows ya what it can do right in the lower rpms's ... sorta like a regular villain instead of the Norman Bates thing ... :lol: ... Like "come here I am so eclectic and cool" ... and then Bam ... "I am my mother and I stab ya 18 times ... "
Cool.
Srinath.
pablo.....still not buying it.....87 cbr has 85 hp.....stock does sub 11's qtr mile.....SV is about 12.5 secs (oh and 99-02 SV come 68 hp, 03+ SV come 72 hp stock) .....the power from the SV is right there with that low end grunt (thanx to the v-twin).....
but lets be realistic for a second here.....person is looking for something like a gsxr-600 for a first bike right.....do you really think said person is going to want an 18 year old bike for their first bike??....when I think of a "older 600cc SS bike" I'm thinkin mid nineties ninja or CBR......
...either way I still think it's *wrong* to comment about about how the SV is just as fast as the CBR when (1) this is just factually incorrect , & (2) the person hasn't ridden an SV, therefore is really incapable of making any sound judgement call about it's rideability or speed....
....now this person could have said, "hey, I had an 87 CBR600 for my first bike, and it was fine....", but chose not to....
....I may come off as arrogant, but Pablo, when someone basically misrepresents a CBR600rr (especially when they haven't ridden one) don't you get a little pissy??....or do I simply have too much pride in my bike??....
Quote from: mastrindbut lets be realistic for a second here.....person is looking for something like a gsxr-600 for a first bike right.....do you really think said person is going to want an 18 year old bike for their first bike??.........
no, you're right. most likely he's a lost cause. the fact he's in MSF tells me either he HAD to be there or just might be convinced of a smaller bike due to
some sort of good judgement, but unlikely.
Quote from: mastrind...either way I still think it's *wrong* to comment about about how the SV is just as fast as the CBR when (1) this is just factually incorrect , & (2) the person hasn't ridden an SV, therefore is really incapable of making any sound judgement call about it's rideability or speed....
First, I never said it was AS fast. I said it was
almost as fast. Reread my post to verify. Second, I
HAVE ridden an sv650., first gen. AND, I've ridden an 87 cbr600 hurricane. Its a piece of crap really. Faster than an SV for sure (not by much really-only at the top end) but still 18 year old tech.
Quote from: mastrind....I may come off as arogant, but Pablo, when someone basically misrepresents a CBR600rr (especially when the haven't ridden one) don't you get a little pissy??....or do I simply have too much pride in my bike??....
You have too much pride. you made bad assumptions about me and you misinterpreted the original post reading into it that it was a new supersport when they mentioned an older model. So, yeah, I think your being arrogant.
Back to topic, the MSF instructor should have steered new riders toward smaller bikes but I can understand how they might try damage control, knowing full well a gs500 isnt going to fly with this guy. I've been there. Sometimes you can see it isnt going to make a dent and I try to at least get them not to buy a brand new, or several year old sportbike. MSF instructors are just like you and me, after all. They are prone to the same personality issues and bad judgement (if in this case we can consider recommending a sportbike at all as bad judgement).
Quote from: pantablo
You have too much pride. you made bad assumptions about me and you misinterpreted the original post reading into it that it was a new supersport when they mentioned an older model. So, yeah, I think your being arrogant.
....ok....I can accept that I have too much pride.....I love my bike.....so be it.....but:
1. did I really misrepresent the original post??....
seems to me the only bike mentioned was a GSX-R 600.....which didn't come into production until 1992, and had 106 ponies at inception....other sport bikes from that time ranged from 95 hp on....and of course these are sport designed track bikes sold as street legal racers (not that I'm saying anythings wrong with that).....
2. what "bad assumptions" did I make about you??....really, I don't know.....
....
Quote from: mastrind1. did I really misrepresent the original post??....
seems to me the only bike mentioned was a GSX-R 600.....
the tenor of the original post was that an older 600cc sportbike, as recommended by the MSF instructor, was alright. The mention of a gsxr 600 was by the author of the post stating what his friend originally wanted. Most posts following were addressing the older 600 sportbike. So I still think you mininterpreted the first post.
Quote from: mastrind2. what "bad assumptions" did I make about you??....really, I don't know.....
....
when you said " the person hasn't ridden an SV, therefore is really incapable of making any sound judgement call about it's rideability or speed...." you were assuming I didnt have any experience on an SV and the underlying assumption was I didnt have experience on an older sportbike.
And I dont get pissy when people misrepresent or otherwise give my honda grief. I present what I know and let the others decide for themselves...not everyone likes hondas. not everyone likes sv650's (really).
Meh.. as it were. Before it strayed off topic (be nice guys..).
My opinion on the matter is:
If said individual lives in a big city with lots of distractions, misc moving objects, suv/cellphone freaks, delivery people, bad/worn out roads, or major terrain changes, I would tell the kid to get real. There is no way in hell I would let him jump on that bike. He would be a splat in no time at all.
If he lived in the countryside with nominal distractions, slow moving cows, flat/low curve angle roads and highly predictable terrain and traffic changes.. well. That would change things slightly, but I would still push a smaller bike.
Show him some crash videos of before and after shaZam! like my dad did to me. That combined with ramming a 250 Honda rebel into an air conditioning unit cause the choke broke was enough to scare the bajeezuz so that I waited at least a 2 1/2 years to move up to a larger / heavier 550cc bike.
Just remember to tell him what my parents both told me after the air conditioner incident, they have been riding for 35+ years.
Mom: "There are two types of riders. Those that have gone down, and those that will go down eventually...."
Dad: "...so it the most important thing is how much experience you have before that day arrives, because it will really be what saves your ass from a gravel sandwich, not your leather."
mastrind, I really don't understand what your point is? yes a cbr600rr and an sv650 are not the same type of bike, but take into account that they build power totally differently. low down power can be very dangerous in the hands of a newbie, who wouldn't have proper throttle/clutch control. We all know that a cbr has more top end, but torque can really screw up a newbie. and before you call me ignorant, Yes I have ridden an sv650, I owned an 03, and on a light to light challenge, it surely wasn't losing much to any cbr600.
Pablo.....well.....you greatly took what I said out of context, especially because the remark was not directed towards you.....I've seen you on the socalsvriders site and I know that you've ridden the sv before.....perhaps you should reread what I've written......
so, for clarification here let me put to bed what my points are....
1. I love my SV...so I tend to take things a bit more personally when it comes to what people are saying about my bike.....perhaps the poster didn't intend for his/her comments to be received the way I did, and perhaps I read too much into the comments.....such is life.....when you're passionate about something, that's what happens...
2. if you haven't ridden said bike, then it is *wrong* to (1) comment on how the bike handles, power is delivered, etc. (2) advise others on the worthiness of said bike (3) compare said bike to another that you have owned/ridden....
**I do think it's quite humorous that you chastise me for misinterpreting the initial post, but it's quite allright for you to misinterpret my post**
Blah blah blah blah.... :roll:
Anyways, suppose the kid DOES get a newer, quick sports bike as his first bike. As long as he keeps both wheels on he ground, keeps it within the speed limit, wouldn't he be ok? I mean if you crash going 55mph on a GS500 it will hurt just the same as if you're on a Heyabusa going 55mph, right? ANY motorcycle can kill you or seriously hurt you, not to mention if you wreck and get run over by a car in the road. Stuff like that has no relevence to the bike your on.
I've never ridden a faster sportsbike, so I guess I am ignorant and I can accept that for now as I have a lot left to learn! But if the kid rides the GSX-R supersport the same Granny way i rode my bike when I first got it, wouldn't he be just as safe? The supersport has a higher top speed but that is irrelevent under 65mph. And it gets up to speed faster, but only if you give it more throttle right? What if he granny rides it?
If he doesn't have the sense to granny ride a gixxer then he doesnt't havr the sense to granny ride a gs500?
:dunno:
it hurts your pride the same. your wallet, no. that's totaly different.
I always though there were more problems with the sportier bikes for a newbie than just power.
There's the previously mentioned delivery of power, but there's alsy the different brakes and handling that can get a newbie in trouble.
I've been told that the sport brakes are harder and could get a newbie in trouble since they will grab better potentially leading to low/high side situations.
There's also the mental aspect. Getting on a sportier bike seems to cause a higher desire to ride it like you stole it", at least it did for me.
Just my $.02
Maybe the kid wanted a liter bike and the instructor talked him down to a 600? The problem with the sports replica bikes is the throttle response. Flick the throttle and they TAKE OFF... FAST. A liter bike will rip itself out of your hands. A 600 will just streatch your arms a bit. It IS easier to get into serious trouble with a SS bike. They WILL bite you if you give them the chance.
What would "I" do? I'd talk him into taking my GS and then I'd buy the 600!
Seriously, talk him into a GS or maybe a Ninja500 and have him ride that for a least a year. THEN he can move up. Unless of course he is super mature and will ride the 600 reasonably... yea right...
Quote from: PhaedrusBlah blah blah blah.... :roll:
Anyways, suppose the kid DOES get a newer, quick sports bike as his first bike. As long as he keeps both wheels on he ground, keeps it within the speed limit, wouldn't he be ok? I mean if you crash going 55mph on a GS500 it will hurt just the same as if you're on a Heyabusa going 55mph, right? ANY motorcycle can kill you or seriously hurt you, not to mention if you wreck and get run over by a car in the road. Stuff like that has no relevence to the bike your on.
I've never ridden a faster sportsbike, so I guess I am ignorant and I can accept that for now as I have a lot left to learn! But if the kid rides the GSX-R supersport the same Granny way i rode my bike when I first got it, wouldn't he be just as safe? The supersport has a higher top speed but that is irrelevent under 65mph. And it gets up to speed faster, but only if you give it more throttle right? What if he granny rides it?
If he doesn't have the sense to granny ride a gixxer then he doesnt't havr the sense to granny ride a gs500?
:dunno:
^^^^^^^^^^
um one thing...how long can a sane person granny ride? ya I started that way but after 25miles I opened the throttle up and scared the crap out of me....then it was another 30miles before I got the guts to pull on the throttle again...NOW I ride with the throttle wide open :lol: [it took 2yrs] When I get my katana on the road.....ya your going to see the slowes granny sporkbiker there ever was. If I get "stupid" and pull the throttle my a$$ is hitting the road and my beloved bike is going to get a beauty mark. I think a good headed shoulder person can handle the 600 sportbikes, but
they need to understand one crash one kill concept
Quote from: PhaedrusAs long as he keeps both wheels on he ground, keeps it within the speed limit, wouldn't he be ok?
Well, yes, but a new rider, statistically, won't do either of those. :P
Quote from: mastrindPablo.....well.....you greatly took what I said out of context,
1. I love my SV...so I tend to take things a bit more personally when it comes to what people are saying about my bike.....perhaps the poster didn't intend for his/her comments to be received the way I did, and perhaps I read too much into the comments.....such is life.....when you're passionate about something, that's what happens...
2. if you haven't ridden said bike, then it is *wrong* to (1) comment on how the bike handles, power is delivered, etc. (2) advise others on the worthiness of said bike (3) compare said bike to another that you have owned/ridden....
**I do think it's quite humorous that you chastise me for misinterpreting the initial post, but it's quite allright for you to misinterpret my post**
Well M, I would find it humorous with you except I dont see how I misinterpreted your post. Its very simple. This was said:
Quote from: ukchickenlover
Why would and sv650 be better?
I have ridden a 1987 cbr600f and found it very easy to ride, the sv650 would be just as fast.
and you go off on your tirade defending the SV. I think you took it very personally and arent taking into account that other people might have different opinions about the worthiness of an SV as a first bike. Its not my first recommendation as a first and many would agree. I'm sorry you are taking offense to that. I can't see anything else it could be that has gotten you so worked up. People can have opinions (and sometimes even correct opinions) about things without directly experiencing it themselves, really. They may not speak with 100% authority on the subject but might not be talking in the dark either.
Do I think the Sv is a good first bike? Frankly NO. Do I think it makes a better first bike than a new 600 SS? Absolutely. You are entitlied to feel the SV is a good first bike, just dont jump down anyone's throat if the other poster disagrees.
Pablo.....basically we've gotten to the point where nothing's going to get resolved....I don't think you're really reading my posts.....or trying to hear what I have to say.....I gave the best attempt at an apology that I'm willing to give while saving face above....I'm not offering anything else....
....I've not questioned your judgement of the SV as a first bike because (1) you've ridden it and (2) I feel that you are qualified to make a decent judgement call....
QuotePeople can have opinions (and sometimes even correct opinions) about things without directly experiencing it themselves, really. They may not speak with 100% authority on the subject but might not be talking in the dark either.
...i agree, and there is validity to this, but ther is something to be said about expertise/experience someone has within a field that they formulating the opinion about.....
Quote from: mastrindPablo.....basically we've gotten to the point where nothing's going to get resolved.....
agreed. I'm done here, for fear I might have to put myself in the tard farm... :)
Quote from: RoadstergalQuote from: PhaedrusAs long as he keeps both wheels on he ground, keeps it within the speed limit, wouldn't he be ok?
Well, yes, but a new rider, statistically, won't do either of those. :P
I agree... I can't even manage those on the GS. :oops:
Quote from: pantabloDo I think the Sv is a good first bike? Frankly NO. Do I think it makes a better first bike than a new 600 SS? Absolutely.
Yep and yep.
Before I post this, let me just say that I'm not in anyways suggesting that anyone start on anything bigger that a 500.
I've been ridding small bikes for over a year now (ninja250, gs500)
I've been pushing it a little for the last 4000 miles or so.
I got the chance, this weekend to ride three different 600 super sport bikes.
I was a little bit intimidated at first. But here is where it gets weird: the bike actually felt much easier to ride, throttle was amazingly crisp, and handling was effortless, and the perception of speed was far less at any given speed compared to the GS.
My conclusion is that every bike as a limit...with the gs, you reach that limit a lot faster so you are really learning how far you can take it before things get hairy, you get to understand the forces and physics exerted on the bike etc..
Somebody starting on an SS has no idea what the damn thing is capable off and wig out or find out the hard/costly way.
Ok so that being said, assuming that you have some experience in the bag, wouldn't a brand new SS be much safer than a mid 90's SS since, it is lighter, outhandles, outbrakes, out everything the older 600's????
or maybe I'm just smoking crack...
In regards to changing your nephew's mind about starting on a 600, GOOD luck...you won't because to him a 600 hundred is 1000times cooler than a GS. Fortunately, people crash, steal, mistreat 600's a lot, and will be practically uninsurable for an 18 year old ...
Possible the longest post I have ever written in my life...I'm out
Quote from: VersOneand the perception of speed was far less at any given speed compared to the GS
That's one of the things that makes them dangerous.
QuoteRoadstergal
Posted:
That's one of the things that makes them dangerous.
Exactly. Any idiot can ride fast in a straight line, but you get that same idiot out onto a tight twisty stretch of road, and he will very quickly learn just how much he sucks at riding fast. even though a SS600 or even an sv650 don't have litre bike power, they still have the ability to do much more than most new riders and sometimes experienced riders can handle. Most new riders have to learn that the hard way. in the last week I have seen 2 brand new wrecked bikes. 1-r6 owned by an idiot newbie who ran wide on a turn(still with dealer plates) and 1 Aprilia tuono(he hit sand) (sure he did, likely story) also still with dealer plates. get it straight kids, you are not going to be the exception to the rule, you are going to learn the same way everyone else does. either with patience and maturity, or with blood and money.
Thank you for all the advice I'm going to show this post to my nephew later today.
Remind him that he does not have to keep the gs forever just learn to ride on it and then sell and then if he still wants a sports bike then get one.
Quote from: ukchickenloverRemind him that he does not have to keep the gs forever just learn to ride on it and then sell and then if he still wants a sports bike then get one.
older bikes dont depreciate much. If he buys a bike for $1200-$1300 and sells it in 6mo he'll prolly get his money back