Ok I am a newb. I rode bikes years ago, but just got back in the swing of things 500 miles ago.
I was doing some mild agressive riding, meaning beyond my skill level, and I came onto a corner that I know well. It is a smooth slightly decreasing radius turn.
As I said in the heading, I took it too hot. I was able to bring it out, but I scared myself to death doing it.
In my MX-5 I have serveral options for this kind of situation. I can let off the throttle, even use my left foot on the brake a little, and upset the rear to change the yaw of the car. It is not fast, but you come out looking like a hero. I am decent at getting with this type of machine.
For obvious reasons this does not seem like a good idea on my GS.
I know that the correct way to do is to go slower in, apex late, and power out. At the time it was a bit late for that. Better slow in than dead out.
My question is what is the best way to get out of a situation on a bike, beside taking the curve the correct way. You know ... when you know you have just screwed up.
From one newb to another...if there's room on the side of the road (i.e. a shoulder or nice grassy yard) I'd flick it upright, come to a stop, and try it again. I've had several turns were I'd go in too slow and was wobbly but haven't yet gone in too hot that I couldn't squeeze out of it (knock on wood).
Just my thought.
Unless you were really being a hero (i.e. scraping knees, footpegs, exhaust, etc.) you look through the curve more, and lean harder/farther. I've been riding for over 4 years (never been able to get track time), I try to push myself, without dieing, and the closest I've come to scraping stuff is the toes of my boots. Another option is what Doug suggested, if you KNOW you've got time and room to straighten up and slow WAY down or stop, it's better than pushing too hard and low siding. Big thing is stay calm, until you're in the clear and can take off your helmet and puke on the roadside. :lol:
lean lean lean, and lowside. it hurts alot less than e-braking and launching yourself over the bars.
When I come into corners too *hot*, I do one of two things:
1. I tap the rear brake to lock the back tire, then hit the throttle hard, turn the front wheel slightly and drift alllllllll they way through that mama-jamma! Leaving smoke and rubber all the way back out the turn!
2. I bounce HARD on the pegs/suspension, squeeze the front brake and stoppie alllllllllll the way around that sucker! Flicking off cops and old ladies the entire way!
I just learned to ride last week, and my first bike is a 1.4Liter Hayabusa with soft race take-offs and bling-bling chromed out fairings with a fart pipe from a riced-out civic for an exhaust!
Disclaimer: The preceding is only true in my imagination
whatever you do do not brake, unless there is a semi in the other lane, then attempt to bend in half and kiss your ass good bye.
Quote from: TarzanBoyDisclaimer: The preceding is only true in my imagination
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I thought I was gonna hafta slap ya' upside the head, but I should be slapped upside the head for thinking for a second you were serious! Bwahahaha! Good one. :P :P :P
Quote from: davipulean lean lean, and lowside. it hurts alot less than e-braking and launching yourself over the bars.
:thumb: it is better to lean till you can't lean anymore and then slide. Thats better then kissing the windshield of what might be coming around the turn.
i seem to remember keith code saying something in TOTW2 about it being okay to use brake in a decreasing radius turn. I'd have to look it up.
jake
Like others have said - grit your teeth and lean.
Ever since I got my bike back from the shop something happened to me and I've been riding much more agressivly. I have since found myself in a situation like u just described many times.
I've been suprised how far I can lean - and I still have huge chicken strips.
Here's the deal if you come in too hot:
1) Hit your front break = will crash
2) Straighten and brake = probably crash
3) Lean it over = might crash
I know it kinda sucks, there's no "magic solution" - but that's riding.
It all comes down to experience and physics.
I just completed the MSF this weekend (more on that later), and the rider coach said there's one thing to do: P & P. Press and Pray, he called it.
I wouldnt recommend a noob braking in corners but with more experience you CAN brake and pretty hard at that, in a corner. Going in too hot is usually more mental than actual physics (ie you THINK you're in too hot or you're in too hot for your comfort/skill).
if you're not scraping anything already, just LOOK through the turn as far as you can, and push on that inside bar as hard as you can. You may think you're in too hot but in reality you might have TONS more grip left on the tires. better off lowsiding trying to pull it off (best bet is you will likely pull it off) than crashing otherwise.
The key is to be smooth about it. if you are abrupt in anything you might overload the front tire and lowside prematurely.
When into a corner too fast, just slow down a bit. Front braking in a corner tends to stand it up while rear braking tends to settle the suspension much the same as giving it throttle thru the corner does.
I do a lot of trail braking into corners all the time just to keep in practice. Both brakes into the corner and then rear braking after that if further braking is needed. When already in too fast and deep just use some firm rear braking well short of breaking it loose and push that inside bar down firmly.
You'll be surprised how much you can slow in a corner without loosing control. I know ya ain't supposed to do it, but I also go into blind corners faster than my sight distance will cover just to practice braking after into it. Takes a lot of practice braking in corners to develop a good touch on the rear brake and get the most out of it. If you wait till you need it, it won't be there. Has to be second nature and done automatically without trying to think it thru at the last instant.
A couple of times I've gone into a blind corner too fast only to find an oncoming vehicle half into my lane. No place for rear braking here, just do it the MSF way and stand it up and front brake hard towards the edge and then lay it back into the curve. A definite case of where you need to yield some space to the intruder and get yourself to the edge.
I started braking in corners with the GSs, hadn't really tried it much with previous bikes. The GS just loves to do it though. Just develop that fine touch on the rear brake before you really need it. I average 8-12k miles on rear brake pad life and about 20-25k miles on the fronts.
GSjack, while trail braking is an awesome thing to know, it is NOT for a new rider. Someone who is yet to master the fine balance between normal and trail braking.
I suggust you this.. SLLR = Slow Look Lean and Roll. Its taught in MSF and you should use it now until you are ready to learn how to gauge speeds into a turn.
Slow down as you approach the turn (down shift if needed), look into teh turn the bike will lean along with it and once got the lean hold teh throttle at a steady level (being smooth) adjust slightly if needed and then when you are coming out of the lean you can powerup and slowly straighten out. This is past teh Apex of the turn.
I wouldnt suggest kissing the apex of the turn, its dangerous on the street, i do it, and i hate it because sometimes on a left turn my bikes on the other lane into teh turn.. and i try not to do it on blind turns.. but sometimes it happens.
Do SLLR for a while, and eventually you will learn to identify slower corners.. now by chance you run into something unexpected a long dicreasing radius turn, you can always slow down by reducing throttle and or straightening up with a little brake, but usually you are smooth enough that reducing throttle and straigtening up will get you thru that unexpected thing.
hope this helps.
i've already had to tail brake in a leaned turn one of my first few times out.
I already knew all the theory as to why it shouldn't be done, but the situation def called for it, so I made sure to not lock up my rear wheel and not take any more speed than I needed off.
The most important thing is to NOT PANIC!
Alot of crashes by novice riders are from going into turns outside of thier "comfort zone" and they freak out and either stand the bike up or lock up on the controls and run wide/crash.
The performance envelope of a GS is alot bigger than most new riders appriciate. By keeping your head and "riding it out" you will both escape unharmed and will expand your riding abilities. Thats why I recomend ppl take track/race schools. You can learn how to do high speed cornering in a much safer enironment than on the street during an "oh shaZam!!" moment.
what a lowly peon....
QuoteI was doing some mild agressive riding, meaning beyond my skill level
beyond your skill level is "mild?" i'd hate to think what "major" is :P
decreasing radius...use vanishing point technique.
if you've scared yourself, you rode over your head/above your riding abilities. basically, left it up to luck to keep yourself upright and not skill. luck isn't always on your side. ;) take it back a couple notches.
riding for years doesn't make much difference if you've been doing things wrong the entire time. might benefit you to take a riding course. whether it's MSF or a track school. you can never learn enough about riding. i've seen riders who've been at it long before i was born but couldn't take a corner worth shaZam!.
QuoteSLLR = Slow Look Lean and Roll.
it's actually slow look PRESS roll :mrgreen:
I think you're never too newb to learn a new skill... but you always should have a good foundation before adding to it.
Trail braking is very cool. It will change the geometry enough, via the suspension, to pull a corner faster and tighter. It does offer extra control in a very subtle way-- but it is an advanced skill.
Next time you're riding (in a straight line, keep the throttle on and start riding the rear brake. You'll feel the bike "sit down" but it won't be jerky. You shouldn't lose too much speed either. In comparison, if you try to replicate the effect with the front brake or enginge brake, you'l feel the bike jolt - upsetting the suspension or possibly your riding position.
Also, by riding the brakes, you ensure the rear tire doesn't lock up and you minimize the transition between braking and adding throttle.
Once you get a feel for this in a straight line, try riding a corner and you'll notice a difference.
But remember, there is a definate difference in late braking vs trail braking. Common sense and self control will do more for your riding than any advanced technique.
Get a good book- I like Lee Parks, Total Control
Thank you for your responses.
Trail braking is a skill that I understand, and use, in my car. It will take some time tp transfer the idea, but I will keep this in mind.
From what I have heard I did the right thing, after my origanal screw up. It still scared me though.
I realized, slightly braked, leaned more, then rolled on the throttle. I never left the road, or crossed the dreaded yellow line.
I'd love to take a track course, and get track time. I will plan for this soon.
Right now, well not right now, I am practicing braking on the lonely road i live on. I am the last house.
go to a parking lot and learn to lean hard and trail brake...dont' do it on the road!...
if you can't even scrape your toe in the parking lot...you are not ready to ride hard on the street...
Put me in the brakes camp. In theory the more lean angle method is the preferred course of action, but, in the real world, riders not accustomed to dragging their pegs at the track tend to have a definite lean angle comfort zone and going beyond induces fear similar to a pre-columbian sailor going over the edge of the Earth. Because fear of an ashphalt face-plant can be detrimental to technique--like suddenly having a frozen grip on the bars, like elbows locking, like unconsciously pushing the body away from the bar instead of moving the bar forward. It just seems like an emergency situation is not the time to rely on skills one doesn't already possess. Reaching for the brakes is instinctive, just scrub off speed and keep steering I say.
Increasing lean angle is great...if you're the only vehicle on the curve. What really worries me is the knucklehead drivers who brake sharply in the middle of decreasing radius turns.
In my normal commute (which I currently do by car), I go through a couple of 270 degree, variable radius highway interchanges with poor sight lines, and invariably I see brake lights as soon as cars in front of me get into the decreasing radius bits. Not gently either...it always seems they're going from 50 to 20. Never mind that (even in a car) this is a bad idea, but for a trailing motorcycle, this seems downright dangerous. Being able to increase lean angle doesn't seem to matter much when you're heading for the tail end of a volvo/minivan/SUV/other instrument of evil.
Of course, keeping a safe distance is the answer here, but it seems optimistic to expect a signficant cushion on a 3/4 mile ramp when transitioning from highway speeds and dealing with the unpredictable behavior of poor drivers ahead. It seems that these situations are lowsides waiting to happen (or excursions into the grass). The MSF class stresses not decelerating in turns, but conditions don't always make that feasible.
I agree with everything that has been said except the straighten out and run off the road method....thats just bad news on right hand turns (incoming traffic) and you don't always have run off on the right either. So NO!!!!
As for unloading the throttle in the middle of a turn...that a big NO!!!!! as well since doing this will shift all the weight to the front, and will result in almost the same thing has using the front brake...plus the bike won't feel grounded.
I say....lean lean lean and focuss on the exit.
Also since nobody has metioned it yet...in a decreasing radius situation, where the curve tightens up really hard, I sometimes treat it as two separate curves and DOUBLE APEX the turn.
I straighten up the bike slightly after the first lean, run to the outside of the turn and setup for the second part of the turn.
When in doubt I usually trail brake. I setup my body position for the turn, squeeze front brake slightly to shave off excess speed and while I apply maintenance throttle, I keep on the brakes a tad...
As I reach the Apex, the throttle increases as the brake decrease...two fingers on the front brake and the rest twisting the throttle..as you twist more...you brake less.
I never use my rear brake in a turn...so I can't attest to that..although the books I have read do mention taping it lightly in "racetrack" conditions. But you need to have a pretty darn good feel of how much you can squeeze before you loose traction.
Peace out
:thumb:
P.S. As my sig indicates...I'm a stooge noob...so take my advice or leave it...
QuoteI average 8-12k miles on rear brake pad life and about 20-25k miles on the fronts.
may want to try using the front more as it provides more braking power.
Quoteif you can't even scrape your toe in the parking lot...you are not ready to ride hard on the street...
wow, that's like so dumb my brain hurts....
sorry but that'll put you on your ass on the street and the parking lot.
if you're scraping toe, look at how your feet are positioned. you should never scrape toe unless you're at the limits of ground clearance.
If you're not dragging parts, you have more room to lean.
Left off the throttle, and LEAN... If that's not enough, then KEEP LEANING!
Quote from: RVertigoIf you're not dragging parts, you have more room to lean.
Left off the throttle, and LEAN... If that's not enough, then KEEP LEANING!
yup good advice. But I will mention that the first time you scrape something it is freaky.
I hit a corner too hot (for my sissy abilities) and had to talk myself into leaning more... then more... then more...
Once I pulled through it I went back and did it again. :lol:
Quote from: natedawg120Quote from: RVertigoIf you're not dragging parts, you have more room to lean.
Left off the throttle, and LEAN... If that's not enough, then KEEP LEANING!
yup good advice. But I will mention that the first time you scrape something it is freaky.
its only freaky AFTER you get through the turn without crashing... kinda like "holy crap what the hell did I just scrape?"
looks at the centerstand "nope"
looks at the pegs "nope"
looks at the new willeyco pipe "cooooooool! Good thing I left some room to go wide and kept it upright" :lol:
Funny thing is I caught some pretty nasty headshake after it gripped again, went wide but was able to muscle it back into line and I was completely out of the turn before I had a chance to notice that this was a close call. After a while, working a habbit of not panicking pays off big time... you'll have lots of time to panick later when your not riding.
Quote from: gs500fromnbyou'll have lots of time to panick later when your not riding.
YUP!!!
Yeeeeears ago a friend of mine was looking at the scraped ends of my SR500 (Yamaha single) pegs. "What happened, did you lay it down?"
I explained that it happened when I went around a corner. He didn't believe me so I leaned the bike over until the end of the pegs touched ground and I surprised myself. I must be NUTS doing this while the bike is in motion.
Bikes will lean quite a bit. You just have to know how far those hard parts are sticking out on the sides (floor boards, highway pegs, center stands).
I can't imagine the lean angles on those super moto bikes. Dirt bike with street tires and very high pegs.
In my opinion coming in "too hot" and "leaning more" are counter-intuitive to a new rider.
The feeling of being unable to make the turn suggests you don't yet have the confidence to deal with that situation. That feeling says "slow down" and "be more upright" when the real answer may well be to press harder and maintain bike attitude.
Every situation must be taken on its own -- not every answer is to press harder -- but most of the time this is indeed the best choice. Until you use up your braking reserve, trail braking is possible but requires a delicate tough.
I find the number of situations where I can follow my MSF training and "right the bike and brake hard" are actually few and far between. I find this to be a paradox -- by the time I might want to do this, I'm usually running out of road to do it in.
I do occasionally trail brake, and agree that an experienced rider can execute this as they usually have the instinct that tells them they have the reserve to pull it off. But for a new rider, just remember to lean more, aim for the car tire path (cleanest part of the road) and trust tire grip.
Roy...
I would suggest that you go to a parking lot and practice shifting and breaking with out feeling anything change in the dynamics of the bike. if you can slow with out causing the bike to dip or sag , and shift smooth enough that the only thing difference you notice is the rpm change on the bike then slowing in a corner will be much less un-nerving. practice the light increasing preassure on the brakes, learn to stop with out "feeling" the brake in the whole bike. I have no problem braking in the middle of turns (just make sure your not on gravel). make sure tat all of you movements are fluid and gentle. nothing quick or jerky. quick and jerky=face plant= ouch. smooth = comfortble = relaxed = fast. the more relaxed you are the more time you have to correct mishaps. anyway back to the beginning learn to brake in a straight line with out causing the bike to jerk steady light increasing preassure on rear brakes. when you can do that without thinking about it you can safely slow in a turn.