I am just back from my morning motorcycle endorsement road test in Atlanta, GA. I did not pass! Everything was going along very well until the very last section. Apparently they WANT you to lock up the brakes... but instead of coming out and saying that the test-administrator's script says 'its ok if you skid'. Let me elaborate...
The Georgia motorcycle road test is split into four parts:
1. Bike inspection - Blinkers & brake lights [OK]
2.Starting and stopping - Basic linear control [OK]
You bring the bike up to ~12 mph in a 14 inch-wide lane
and then stop it as close to a green line about 30-40yd away.
You are not supposed to lock up the brake on this part
3.Turning and steering - lateral movment balance and control [OK]
You first take a very tight 90 degree right hand turn where
you must keep the bike between two lines ~3 ft apart going
into the turn and 2ft apart coming out of it.
Then you have to accelerate through 2 sweeping turns (meant
to test leaning/balance
4. Stopping and swerving - forget what they told you at MSF about not locking the brakes up [FAILED]
They set up a light with 3 signals on it. Left, right and stop.
You pull down the 14 in wide lane and watch to see which
signal the instructor triggers. Left = swerve left and then
brake. Right = swerve right and then brake. Middle/top = STOP
This last part is what killed me. My cumulative stopping distance was a few inches too far for me to pass. The instructor explained to me that I'd done very well on the rest of the test (particularly the curves), and that my problem was that I didn't skid
"Didn't skid?", I asked. "I've been taught that its counter-productive to lock up the brakes" (as control is lost). She (a rider herself) agreed, but said that all that part of the test really cared about was how quickly and how hard you hit the brakes as soon as the stop light came on... with little regard for whether this was actually a safe practice at speeds higher than those on the road test course.
I know better than to try to reason with the bureacracy that is the DMV, so I thanked her and rode home. I was a little peeved that it wasn't made clear to me that controlling the stop wasn't the point of the last exercise (even a rookie rider knows how to pull the brake and panic-stop), but that's the government for you... unconcerned with minute details if its soemthing they are responsible for (but DON'T walk into the DMV with the wrong kind of insurance card... they'll toss you right out).
So, to all you MSF'ers out there.... be ready for a different kind of mentality if you road test through the DMV!
Mind boggling. :roll: :roll: :roll:
That's one good reason I took the MSF: so that I *didn't* have to take the DMV road test! :thumb:
I guess that's what happens when car drivering legislators create the motorcycle test? :dunno:
But now you know. Sign up for another test and do it as they want. Be polite, get your endorsement and go back to doing the right thing.
You have to play the game the way they want. Doesn't matter if you agree with it -- it's less stressful if you go with the flow. I agree, it's better for everybody if you know the rules in advance. ;)
If you take the MSF or an equivelant course here in Ohio and pass it, you get your mc endorsement. The state wants all new riders to take a training course and it is becoming known that it is getting harder to pass the DMV test now if you don't take the course.
A friend of mine also failed the DMV mc test here in Ohio this week and I think you both have been failed on minor things to help encourage all to take the course. When I started riding 20 years ago I got a temp permit and rode for a month and went and easily passed the test. I'm sure my friend who failed it this past week can ride as well as I did back then.
One of these days everyone will have to do it their way. :dunno:
I also think that taking the MSF is the best way to get your licence. I didnt even own a bike when I took the MSF. It was the first time in almost 15 years that I rode a motorcycle, and when I was a kid I only rode in the woods on quads and dirtbikes. After the awesome instruction durring the MSF I passed with ZERO points :mrgreen: and got my M :thumb: from Penn DOT
Dont all states give you your licence after passing the MSF ??
Quote from: TarzanBoyThis last part is what killed me. My cumulative stopping distance was a few inches too far for me to pass. The instructor explained to me that I'd done very well on the rest of the test (particularly the curves), and that my problem was that I didn't skid
While I can't fathom why any tester would want you to skid, you did state "My cumulative stopping distance was a few inches too far for me to pass."
That makes sense. If you simply went a few inches beyond the requirement then that's it. You missed it. Skidding or not wasn't the issue. Skidding will in fact result in increased stopping distance as opposed to maximum controlled braking. Otherwise, ABS brakes would not be beneficial.
Quote from: Ed_in_AzSkidding will in fact result in increased stopping distance as opposed to maximum controlled braking. Otherwise, ABS brakes would not be beneficial.
What if you take the test on a BMW w/ ABS like Ed says? Does that mean you can't pass?
I'm thinking maybe you failled on the stopping distance issue and she was just making some moronic comment about skidding. :dunno:
That scenario you describe with the left right or stop is right from the MSF course.
When I took the test on my endorsement test I got up to roughly 20 mph and still stopped about 5 ft before the fail line.
??????
Quote from: Ed_in_AzWhile I can't fathom why any tester would want you to skid, you did state "My cumulative stopping distance was a few inches too far for me to pass."
That makes sense. If you simply went a few inches beyond the requirement then that's it. You missed it. Skidding or not wasn't the issue. Skidding will in fact result in increased stopping distance as opposed to maximum controlled braking. Otherwise, ABS brakes would not be beneficial.
Ok...this pains me a great deal..it hurts....but I'm woman enough.
+1 to what Ed said.
;)
At the low speed involved in the road test, a skid would most certainly have brought me to a stop faster than making sure that the back brake didn't lock up.
Unlike the MSF course, there was no designated 'fail line'. Had there been, then it would have been a lot easier to figure out exactly how close to push the braking to rear wheel lock-up.
The road test instructor all but told me that I should have skidded (locked both wheels immediately) because that was the aim of the test... reflexes... how fast can you react (without dropping the bike) when its time to swerve or time to to e-stop. This wasn't made clear to me until after I'd completed the section.
No offense to those of you who think I 'justly' failed the test, but how can you reason-out my other exemplary scores on the other sections of the test? Do any of you honestly think that e-stopping is more difficult than swerving or negotiating those tight turns with 'imaginary' obstacles marked by lines. Give me a break! (no pun intended :-) )
Quote from: TarzanBoyAt the low speed involved in the road test, a skid would most certainly have brought me to a stop faster than making sure that the back brake didn't lock up.
Actually, you're off there. Skidding results in the loss of traction (ergo control) of your tires. That also means you lose a great amount of friction on the road surface (as only one small section of the tire is moving). Instead of relying on the WHOLE tire moving over the road surface to slow you down, you are stuck with one small section skidding over the road surface. You've also got rotational inertia working for you, because when the tires are skidding, your wheels aren't moving, which means the mass is only moving forward. However, with the wheel rotating, you've got the mass moving forward combined with the rotational deceleration of the wheel mass rotating around the hub. When you spin something freely, it tends to slow down due to friction. When you slide something forward, it tends to slow down due to friction. Would you rather have one of those frictional forces slowing you, or both?
Summary: Skidding makes you stop further than you could without skidding.
Quote from: RedShiftBut now you know. Sign up for another test and do it as they want. Be polite, get your endorsement and go back to doing the right thing. You have to play the game the way they want. Doesn't matter if you agree with it ;)
I think Red has the best advice here. If you're determined not to take a safety course (we know my bias here ;) ) before going for your M class, then you're just going to have to get back in the saddle and play their game.
The fact is that if they're going to fail you on minor technicalities, then you're going to have to be perfect. That might not be fair, but it's simple reality. Raging against the machine ain't gonna get you an M class here. ;)
No offense against you, either, Tarzan. You just need to do what you need to do. Fairness isn't going to play a big part here. None of here can know your skill level, other than from what you've told us. You might very well be one of those extraordinary individuals who are able to read a book and ride a motorcycle to almost perfection in a week.
However, I'm coming from a place where I have a son who's flipped three cars (yes, THREE), and not one time has he had any part of the blame...it's always an outside force that causes the problem. Fortunately, he's lived to tell the tale (or I'd have killed him). And he wanted to ride a motorcycle. :lol:
You seem to be a very intelligent young man (I can say young man, cuz you're younger than I! :P). Just don't let that nice IQ cause you to be too comfortable (ie. cocky :P).
None of this is said with any condescension, only with care and concern. Take what's good for you, and leave the rest. No offense is meant anywhere. We don't want you to hurt yourself. :mrgreen:
Quote from: AlphaFire X5Actually, you're off there. Skidding results in the loss of traction (ergo control) of your tires. That also means you lose a great amount of friction on the road surface (as only one small section of the tire is moving). Instead of relying on the WHOLE tire moving over the road surface....
I'm familiar with the science/physics. Its the difference between the coefficients of static friction versus rolling friction. And while it is possible to stop the bike in a shorter distance by not locking up the tire.... I am of the opinion that this doesn't necesarily hold up under real-world conditions for the following reason:
Unless I know *exactly* how much brake to apply at a given speed, then I am going to err on the side of caution (not locking up the wheel). In a high speed stopping situation, this point is much easier to feel (i've done it)... there is typically a noticeable shift in weight / intertia to the front fork, and the back tire likes to slide to the side after it is locked.
At a slower (10-20mph) velocity, I find it much harder to feel/tell if i am about to, or if i already have locked up the wheel. There isn't a huge shift in wieght, and i've *never* had the back slide out to the side at such a low speed. Usually by time I realize that i'm skidding (or that I skidded), the bike has pretty much already come to a complete stop since I was going so slowly in the first place. -This is precisely what I was trying to avoid (rear wheel lock) when I took the test so I erred on the side of control instead of stopping distance.
I'll skid the bike (instant rear wheel lock) next time I take the test and let you know how it turns out.... though I personally believe that such a maneuver is ill-advised in a traffic situation.
P.S. I haven't given up on MSF yet. They told me 2 wk ago that they were booked through this weekend. I'll call'em up again this week... though I might so that my old roommate and I can take it at the same time.
Well, TB, the physics holds true. While you might not be able to judge how much brake to apply, the right amount will slow you faster than skidding. Since you are unsure of the amount it will take to lock up the rear wheel, I suggest going to a parking lot, setting up some cones or lines, and practice braking. You'll probably lock the rear tire numerous times as you gain the feel for it, but after a while you'll gain shorter and shorter stopping distances without locking the tires.
I said it in the thread before, when I took the roadtest more than 60% of the people failed. I figure if you know your bike you'll be fine. I'd been riding mine for two years and got a perfect. It's important that you learn to break fast, take it as a lesson.
Quote from: TarzanBoyP.S. I haven't given up on MSF yet. They told me 2 wk ago that they were booked through this weekend. I'll call'em up again this week... though I might so that my old roommate and I can take it at the same time.
:) :thumb: :cheers: :kiss: :mrgreen:
Quote from: TarzanBoyAt the low speed involved in the road test, a skid would most certainly have brought me to a stop faster than making sure that the back brake didn't lock up.
As you know the breaking power of the rear wheel is minor compared to the front and can be dropped out of this equation without affecting the results. That's why, in the MSF course, they tell you up front "it's OK to let the rear skid". In this test the rear wheel doesn't matter.
Quote from: TarzanBoyUnlike the MSF course, there was no designated 'fail line'. Had there been, then it would have been a lot easier to figure out exactly how close to push the braking to rear wheel lock-up.
I believe in both the DMV and MSF the stopping distance is calculated on the spot. They time you as you pass two calibrated lines, then read your target stopping distance from a chart. Your target distance depends on your speed.
Quote from: TarzanBoyNo offense to those of you who think I 'justly' failed the test, but how can you reason-out my other exemplary scores on the other sections of the test? Do any of you honestly think that e-stopping is more difficult than swerving or negotiating those tight turns with 'imaginary' obstacles marked by lines. Give me a break! (no pun intended :-) )
I know what you've gone through. Before I attended the MSF I went to the DMV and watched eight out of ten riders fail. I talked to the riders and the testers. From that experience it was obvious to me that I should take the MSF. There was no way I would have passed the DMV on the first try.
Good luck.
:cheers:
Tell them your bike has Modulated ABS: it can't be made to skid (but it doesn't produce the normal ABS chatter either).
Seriously, if the DMV tester really wanted you to skid, go take it again from a different DMV office (different county, if possible). I'm sure that what's written on paper makes sense; possibly something like "test for reaction time until significant braking". If that tester wanted you to skid, it was probably just one tester's very wrong reading of ambiguous instructions.
That said, your statement about it being hard to feel a rear-wheel lockup coming at slow speeds is true. But with practice, you can keep light on the rear brake and make low-speed lockups as rare as high-speed lockups.
But I'd bet you don't need to have that down pat to pass the test; you may just need a different tester.
Quote from: John BatesAs you know the breaking power of the rear wheel is minor compared to the front and can be dropped out of this equation without affecting the results. That's why, in the MSF course, they tell you up front "it's OK to let the rear skid". In this test the rear wheel doesn't matter.
Ah, interesting... The road test administrator already told me as much, but noone else on the board ever echoed this same opinion before you did. Maybe its a part of MSF that everyone seems to have 'forgotten' ?
Quote from: John BatesI believe in both the DMV and MSF the stopping distance is calculated on the spot. They time you as you pass two calibrated lines, then read your target stopping distance from a chart. Your target distance depends on your speed.Quote
I didn't notice a stopwatch in the administrator's hands... but there might have been one on that funky box she was using to remotely control the swerve/stop lights.
Quote from: John BatesI know what you've gone through. Before I attended the MSF I went to the DMV and watched eight out of ten riders fail. I talked to the riders and the testers. From that experience it was obvious to me that I should take the MSF. There was no way I would have passed the DMV on the first try.
Well, its frustrating to fail because of a single piece of information which wasn't made clear rather than a lack of ability on my part. Truth be told, I already regularly ride at night and on the highway even though I only have a learner's permit.... so the endorsement is little more than a formality to stay 'legit'. (I haven't ridden any passengers because I don't have any gal pals... poor me!)
I'll test again. Maybe next week saturday morning. It sucks that i'll have to go through everything again. I passed all the curve fine, but that tight 90-degree one was a pain in the rear.
Quote from: TarzanBoyTruth be told, I already regularly ride at night and on the highway even though I only have a learner's permit.... so the endorsement is little more than a formality to stay 'legit'.
:?
Johns almost right. On a modern bike front brakes account for 80% or more of stopping power. So you failed the test, don't get all defensive about it. If you can't stop in the alotted time just practice. :cheers:
I didn't say so much that it was lack of technical ability, so much as a misconception that sliding stops you faster. VTNewb is right (partially). Front brakes account for about 70% of the stopping power, even on modern sport bikes. However, that 30% (or even 20% in VTNewb's guess) goes a long way, and it makes a lot of difference. You should take the MSF course, just because. My father, who has ridden over 40 years, took the MSF with me and got something out of it. I don't remember what, but it was something.
i bet pandy is going to be really upset with me... but yes. I ride at night and on the highway.
I started with very very limited, quick trips. The next exit from me is almost exactly 1-mile up the road, and the next one is another 2 miles past that, so I started with 1 and 3 mile trips and worked my way up from there at different times of teh day to get used to different kinds of traffic.
In my opinion... if you have good car-driving-highway habits, then there is only a little bit more that you have to learn once you tranpose those skills&theory to riding.
That being said.... I think the highway is to be avoided if it AT ALL practical. There is just too much that can happen too quickly at too fast a speed. Don't even get me started on traffic and the 5-7 lane freeways we have here in atlanta... its the freaking WILD WEST out there.
-Oh, and to clarify my earlier statement, i dont' really 'regularly' ride the highway often. I just meant to say that its something I already do with my permit.
Quote from: TarzanBoy.............................
Well, its frustrating to fail because of a single piece of information which wasn't made clear rather than a lack of ability on my part. ..................
Yes, but look at it this way, it takes MSFers three days to get their endorsement, you'll no doubt get yours in two. :thumb:
:cheers:
Quote from: John BatesYes, but look at it this way, it takes MSFers three days to get their endorsement, you'll no doubt get yours in two. :thumb:
:cheers:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :thumb: