For some odd reason, I've gotten used to use the engine whenever Im braking, by downshifting and releasing the clutch slowly until I slow down to that gear, and continue my way down on the gear box.
I am also holding the brake at the same time, so the throtle stays pretty much closed during that period. By this I mean that whenever I brake, I used both the front/back wheel brakes + engine brake.
I never tought about this, until the other day when I was engine-braking and heard some 'sputs' coming out of the exhaust pipe while I was engine braking...
my question would be: is engine-braking bad for the GS? and if not, what if I do it all the time?
Of course I don't go from 6th to 3rd or something like that... in fact, it never reveers more than 6k rpm.
What you're calling sputting is probably lean pops - you get those from an engine that's running lean when it's unloaded.
Some people say engine braking is bad for the engine. I have no practical experience to say it is. You don't want to rely on engine braking, but it can be convenient around town. I've done it to some extent on every vehicle I've had.
To be honest, I've become so used to engine-braking that I don't even need to think about it.
In fact, im more than one ocassion I've used it by pure instinct while I was braking with front/rear at the same time.
I learned to drive cars with stick-shift (or is it shift-stick?), and on every 'manual' car I engine-brake by instinct too.
The reason I ask about this is: IF engine-braking is bad for the GS or any other motorcycle, then it's a bad habit I need to get rid of.
And no, I don't rely on the engine to brake. I feel it's more like my third brake pad on the bike.
I do the same.. around town engine breaking is real nice to combine with light front and rearbreak application. Besides, its just cool sounding when you come up to a red light , downshift, vrooom, and get all the head turns.
Quote from: subc................... is engine-braking bad for the GS? and if not, what if I do it all the time?...................
I think it all depends on how you do it. From your description it sounds like you are letting the clutch slip by keeping the throttle closed. If so, the clutch is wearing more than it should. If you match the clutch friction surfaces by using the throttle then no problem. Just don't over rev the engine.
:cheers:
I have always used engine braking in my car and on my bike. :thumb:
I was always told that that is how standard shift transmissions are designed.. in an automatic the downshifting occurs automaticly. But in a standard you need to assist the braking with manual engine braking (down shifting).. is this wrong?
However, now that GAS os soo $$$$ I use engine braking far less. The less resistance.. the more mileage you get :thumb:
Quote from: RoadstergalWhat you're calling sputting is probably lean pops - you get those from an engine that's running lean when it's unloaded...
any1 care to explain about this 'leanness' and 'unloadness'? how do I fix such a thing?
by getting a new bike I tought I wasn't gonna have a problems for at least 4000mi.
Quote from: subcby getting a new bike I tought I wasn't gonna have a problems
It's not a problem.
However,
Quote from: bargovicaround town engine breaking
is. :P :)
lean is usually not a problem... alot lean usually is since your motor will run hotter and you might burn a valve if you love revving to the redline..
Engine braking has never caused any problems with my gs and its up at 40000km .
The engine pops come from the carburetion being lean, meaning more air than gas, while yours does not sound bad, or dangerously too lean, you're currently getting good gas mileage with the carbs set up the way they are now.
Unloading the engine is what happens when you pull in the clutch, disengaging the engine from the rear wheel.
Quote from: scratchThe engine pops come from the carburetion being lean, meaning more air than gas, while yours does not sound bad, or dangerously too lean, you're currently getting good gas mileage with the carbs set up the way they are now.
Unloading the engine is what happens when you pull in the clutch, disengaging the engine from the rear wheel.
well in that case, something else is up.
I got those 'pops' while I was engine-braking... not when the engine was unloaded.
But then again, it only happened once as far as I could tell.
And no... I never revv the engine while doing this. it never goes above 6k rpm on engine-brake.
You'll get those pops when you let off the throttle. Whether you're engine braking or coasting. You'll get them more if you're engine braking.
Yep.
You gotta use the clutch for something right? :lol:
Quote from: subc
I never tought about this, until the other day when I was engine-braking and heard some 'sputs' coming out of the exhaust pipe while I was engine braking...
my question would be: is engine-braking bad for the GS? and if not, what if I do it all the time?
Of course I don't go from 6th to 3rd or something like that... in fact, it never reveers more than 6k rpm.
No, you're fine and it's completely normal. The "sputting" you're hearing is actually a vaccuum created by the engine sucking air back in through the exhaust. Any form of engine braking done by bikes and cars will suck air back in through the exhaust and it's not really bad for it. In fact, the owners manual for my 05-F even gives tips on downshifting and using the engine as a brake. Even has a little table with speeds you should downshift at for beginners. It does reccomend NOT downshifting in the middle of a turn or while the rpms are too high for two specific reasons. 1) Downshifting in a turn can cause the back tire to spin and you to lose control. Believe me, I almost lost the bike not listening to that peice of advice. 2) Downshifting while the rpms are high can cause the engine to overrev (the redzone = too high) and cause engine damage. Which... anytime you're in the redzone you are asking for engine damage.
So, moral of the story... Feel free to downshift sensibly. Avoid downshifting during turns and cornering and don't downshift into 1st from 90mph. =P
I don't engine brake often but I've never heard of it being bad for the engine. In the Canadian military some of the vehicles are still stick-shift and they recommend engine breaking whenever possible from what I've heard from the drivers around the unit. Either way you're trading engine wear for brake wear or vice versa, engines jst tend to take more kms of wear.
AND gas usage! When I don't engine brake, I get 5-7 more mpg in my car.
Strange fact: in a corvette (C4 atleast) they have an instant mpg readout, and when you engine brake, it can leap over 85mpg.
I was told this a long time ago....and I find it to be true....
"its always cheaper to replace brake pads than to replace a clutch...." I still hold ture to that in the regard that I engine brake when I have to.
Quote from: ShadowFireI was told this a long time ago....and I find it to be true....
"its always cheaper to replace brake pads than to replace a clutch...." I still hold ture to that in the regard that I engine brake when I have to.
Much cheaper to replace pads than clutches. However, here's where my line of thinking differs. A quick downshift isn't much different than an upshift. Depending on your technique, the rpms are going to drop slightly when the clutch is disengaged to upshift or downshift. Once the clutch has grabbed, it's not letting go and won't slip unleuss of course you beat on it regularly. What really burns a clutch up is dropping it at a high rpm from a low speed.
My downshifts are quick. I don't slowly release the clutch lever because that would IMO destroy the clutch quicker since it takes longer to make complete contact with the flywheel or whatever bikes have. Of course, I'm no mechanic and am new to the motorcycle world so what I say isn't a certified opinion. :)
Well, I'd say if your driving any with a manual tranny and you left off the gas and don't touch the clutch your engine braking...and then when you want to slow more you rev it up and downshift. I do that all the time in my car and on my bike. and on the bike sometimes you won't even need the brakes.
I try to keep the engine in the proper gear for the speed I travel, I don't lurch the bike or anything. The main reason being I want to be able to accelerate if anything goes wrong.
I prefer to rev match in my car as I can use the right side of my right foot to blip the throttle. This is second nature for me, but I am having trouble converting this to a bike skill. The GS has such a long throttle pull I can never get quite right. May be I should try a 1/4 turn throttle.
Sounds like we've really got 3 things here.
Conventional braking,
Clutch braking &
Engine braking.
Conventional braking wears your brake pads and rotors.
Downshifting and slipping the clutch untill your bike slows down to match the engine is wearing your clutch plates.
Downshifting, matching Revs, releasing the clutch lever then dropping your revs to slow down uses the engine compression to slow you down.
This last technique shouldn;t really be damaging to anything, except perhaps increasing the wear on your chain and sprockets.
I try to use engine braking with as little clutch braking as possible, but I'm not that great at it yet.
Quote from: phireMy downshifts are quick. I don't slowly release the clutch lever because that would IMO destroy the clutch quicker since it takes longer to make complete contact with the flywheel or whatever bikes have. Of course, I'm no mechanic and am new to the motorcycle world so what I say isn't a certified opinion. :)
Important to note that motorcycle clutches ≠ auto clutches. Cars have dry clutches, most m/c's have wet clutches. They behave differently. Motorcycles are much more tolerant to operating in the friction zone. I'm no expert, but it is possible that you're putting more stress on the chain & drive bits, and possibly risking stutterring the rear wheel in order to spare the clutch unnecessarily, unless you're really good at matching the engine speed (in which case you really don't need the clutch at all anyway).
Related question: I've heard that m/c trannies like to be loaded between shifts, and therefore you should always let out the clutch as you head down rather than bump down multiple gears...is there anything to this?
It's not hard to match revs....When I downshift that's what I do.
Quote from: porsche4786It's not hard to match revs....When I downshift that's what I do.
And if you do, it doesn't matter if you let out the clutch slow, fast, or don't use the clutch at all, right?
'course one might have a problem if one should inadvertently drop more than one gear...then snapping out the clutch is going to provide a generally unpleasant surprise.
Yeah, I only go 1 gear at a time, unless I am going very slow, haven't done more than 1 at a time on the bike yet, but in my car I might go from 4th to 2nd if i've slowed a lot.
from the many discussions on the topic i've read lately (a little off topic):
downshifting/engine braking when coming to a stop INCREASES fuel mileage... at least on modern cars. the engine is kept spinning by drawing from the kinetic energy of the car moving forward, not the energy from igniting gasoline. the computer realizes this and cuts fuel to near zero when engine-braking. this may be the same case with carbs through some trick of vacuum/velocity, but i'm not sure.
i just started riding a month ago, but i pretty much always downshift through the gears, letting out on the clutch as i go through them (engine braking) as i come to a stop. what else do you do? clutch in, then kick it down to first from 5th/6th or whatever? what if you are in traffic and need to go from 50 to 15 then accellerate again? i like my method better (for now at least).
That may be true for cars, but there's no computer on the GS so I don't think the theory applies. But what do I know? :dunno:
Dave :cheers:
Quote from: ShadowFire
"its always cheaper to replace brake pads than to replace a clutch...."
unless you dont use a clutch... :P
I downshift both without a clutch or when slowing down agressively (like the rear getting loose agressively) I will use the clutch to prevent further rear lockage. But the latter is more the braking you would see on the track.
when you shift without using the clutch and slowing down, do you just hit it down 1 at a time without letting the engine over rev? or do you rev it up also? I find it hard on a bike to brake smoothly while downshifting. like in a car you can heel toe.
Quote from: porsche4786like in a car you can heel toe.
Do you still have all of the fingers on your right hand? Use the first 2 on the brake, the others blip the throttle.
Practice, practice, practice.
it's kinda hard to rev it while braking i think
Quote from: porsche4786when you shift without using the clutch and slowing down, do you just hit it down 1 at a time without letting the engine over rev? or do you rev it up also? I find it hard on a bike to brake smoothly while downshifting. like in a car you can heel toe.
You have to give it gas for it to downshift if you aren't in the right rpm range... if not it just simply wont let you downshift, you'll hit down and it wont do anything... try it at low to mid rpms (4-5k) pull the throttle a bit and gently press down on the shifter, you will find it will eventually just slap into the other gear, with a little practice you can make it a smooth transition.
As for upshifting, do as you would normally when using the clutch but just dont use the clutch, if you are at the right rpm and released the throttle at the right time the shifter will just slip into the next gear... once again a bit of practice can make it seamless. If it doesnt make noise or crunch, and just shifts smoothly, you arent breaking the engine.
How many of you shift like that normally? What's the point of the clutch then? It's kinda like a sequential transmission.
Quote from: porsche4786How many of you shift like that normally? What's the point of the clutch then? It's kinda like a sequential transmission.
You can do the same with -any- manual transmission. If the engine is spinning at the right speed for the gear the clutch is essentially optional. The point of the clutch is to allow you to ease the drive together to give it time to arrive at the correct speed.
People have told me that this is something that, if not done all the time, should at least be occasionally practiced on the motorcycle...as it would be a really big help if you need to get home after snapping the clutch cable. :dunno:
I went for a ride and shifted up and down without the clutch, easier to shift up gears than down. So it's still better to use the clutch though, right? In a car it's harder to do, usually you will just grind the gear.
Well yes its harder to downshift than upshift, simply because upshifting your shifting into a lower rpm range, the other way around its harder to make a smooth transition into a higher rpm range gear.
But really the clutch is still necessary for take off.
Most racebikes with some decent money will have a shift kit on it which allow for full throttle clutchless upshifts, and a slipper clutch for smoother downshifting without any chances of locking the rear wheel.
For simple street riding, clutchless riding can be practiced and used, however sometimes you just need the clutch. I usually use the clutch when im in a really big "babying" mood. Oh and yes I also find it harder to do in a car without grinding gears.
Quote from: gs500fromnbBut really the clutch is still necessary for take off.
It is possible to get underway without it, it's just not pleasant or practical (but probably better than waiting for a tow if your clutch cable breaks). That is: start in neutral, blip the gas, kick it down and jerk to a start. Not pleasant...but technically speaking, the clutch is not "necessary".
Quote from: BadgerQuote from: gs500fromnbBut really the clutch is still necessary for take off.
It is possible to get underway without it, it's just not pleasant or practical (but probably better than waiting for a tow if your clutch cable breaks). That is: start in neutral, blip the gas, kick it down and jerk to a start. Not pleasant...but technically speaking, the clutch is not "necessary".
Or start it in first... probably really hard on the starter but I've seen it work in cars plenty of times when the clutch was fried..