GStwin.com GS500 Message Forum

Hi everyone,
I have a 05 GS500F.  I'll post pics later.  I've had it since April but I just now hit the 500 mile mark.  I bought this a a learner bike and figured I would keep it for a year or two but I was wrong.  I'm ready to get a 600, either a GSX600R or R6s.  I have not laid the bike down.  I was wondering roughly how much I would get from a private sale.  Thanks for the input.

You'd better get ready to duck...

:lol:

Look it up online (www.kbb.com etc) and post here:
http://www.gstwins.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2
or on craigslist.

Trade-In Value (Good Condition) - $2765
Suggested Retail Value from dealer - $3875 (used unit has been fully reconditioned and is in excellent condition)

these posts are so funny

Quote from: ApyungHi everyone,
I have a 05 GS500F.  I'll post pics later.  I've had it since April but I just now hit the 500 mile mark.  I bought this a a learner bike and figured I would keep it for a year or two but I was wrong.  I'm ready to get a 600, either a GSX600R or R6s.  I have not laid the bike down.  I was wondering roughly how much I would get from a private sale.  Thanks for the input.

Just for fun, what made you decide that you were ready to move up? I mean, at 500 miles I wasn't even going over 50 MPH. Did you take a corner marked "25 MPH" at 30 and decide you were ready? Did you make a left hand turn and remember to cancel your blinker? Really, what was the moment that made you think "Gixxer!"



And it's a miracle that you haven't laid it down, by the way; for some reason I can see you doing so  :dunno:


Dave

Oh c'mon...  Just let him get a GSXR and sell his beauty to someone who will love it.

Like me. Ill give you $1.8k. common.. you know you want to.. Fine, $2k is as high as i go.

Quote from: 2005-GS500-PDXDid you make a left hand turn and remember to cancel your blinker?

Mine's probably still on from last week.  :mrgreen:

$2K and a beer.

500 miles?  You've either blown the breakin or you haven't touched the powerband.

Quote from: RVertigoOh c'mon...  Just let him get a GSXR and sell his beauty to someone who will love it.

Before I got my GS, I figured I'll keep it for a year then get rid of it for a gixxer.  Now I'm thinking that I'll eventually get a gixxer and park it next to the GS.

Must find more storage space.

Quote from: Roadstergal500 miles?  You've either blown the breakin or you haven't touched the powerband.

People are frantically adjusting their $offers down to compensate for the improper break in.  ;)

Seriously though, if you haven't hit the zippy side of the tach, you should try that out before you make up your mind.  Get the initial service out of the way and wind it up a bit.

check nada

http://www.nadaguides.com

they can only price up to '04, you'll get roughly....

 TOTAL PRICE    $3,103   to    $4,035

Those are retail prices, what you could expect to pay at a dealership. A dealership would probably give you low 3's for your '05. If you sold it yourself I'd ask for 4 or a little above since it has low miles; people always wanna slap the price down, might as well start a little higher up.
I bought my '05 new for 4,305; they retail in the store for 5,100 approx. So I really doubt you'd get anymore than 3,500 for it, if that.

It also depends on where you live. For the last couple week's there's been a couple used GS500 (05 and 04) for no less than $4k asking.

My eBay sales/census (http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=87&subpageid=224590&ck=) page has the 2004 at just over $3k after 22 auctions.

I'll better Roadstergal, $2k and TWO beers.  :mrgreen:

I did not completely break it in properly....by 150 miles I was rolling on the throttle.  I took long rides with my brothers one with a 02 ZX6R Ninja and the other with a Duc SPS 9--, basically had to full throttle just to keep with them.  Currently, I do let it the revs fly and have fun with the throttle.  In two weeks it will go in for service.  I am planning on stepping up to the 600s in spring.  I was just getting ball park figures for now and if I was able to get a high $ i would just do it now and take it slow with the 600.

Quote from: 2005-GS500-PDX

Quote from: ApyungHi everyone,
I have a 05 GS500F.  I'll post pics later.  I've had it since April but I just now hit the 500 mile mark.  I bought this a a learner bike and figured I would keep it for a year or two but I was wrong.  I'm ready to get a 600, either a GSX600R or R6s.  I have not laid the bike down.  I was wondering roughly how much I would get from a private sale.  Thanks for the input.

Just for fun, what made you decide that you were ready to move up? I mean, at 500 miles I wasn't even going over 50 MPH

Why so low?  :dunno: Is it because of the breakin? If so, then my bike is screwed.  :( Oh well to late now. There's more horror to come.  :mrgreen: I just did the 600 mile service and I'll be killing her down the drag strip come Friday to see how she likes it. I feel sorry for my bike though. I hope she's survives my brutal doings to her.

How in the hell are you breaking it in? Clearly not per the manufacturer.

Quote from: leoWhy so low?  :dunno: Is it because of the breakin?

60 in 6th was under 5K for me, so 65 is probably the tops barring emergencies.

Quote from: Apyungbasically had to full throttle just to keep with them.

In a straight line?  Who cares?  Take them to some twisties and embarass them on those bigass gas-sucking bent-over inline 4s with a happy, easy-to-care-for, comfy, efficient twin.

Quote from: ApyungI took long rides with my brothers one with a 02 ZX6R Ninja and the other with a Duc SPS 9--

Head to the Dairy Queen the next town over huh?    :lol:

Quote from: 2005-GS500-PDXHow in the hell are you breaking it in? Clearly not per the manufacturer.

That's for sure.  :oops:  I figured I missed second so many times in my very early stages (and still do) and reved it up past the 5k mark that what the hell.

I'm sure there will be tons of posts by me later complaining of new issue here and there, but then again who knows?  :dunno: I just couldn't wait for 500 miles.  I guess I'll be able to report on long term usage and how my bike reacts to drive it like you stole it breakin.  :dunno: I've always wondered about a breakin like that.

QuoteI did not completely break it in properly....by 150 miles I was rolling on the throttle.  Currently, I do let it the revs fly and have fun with the throttle.

You're the reason i went to the dealer and paid $4500 for a brand new '05 with 0.9 miles on it, instead of paying $3500 for an '04 with 2k miles of abuse from the kid one town over selling it used.

Thanks for reassuring  me i did the right thing. :)

he's also the reason that people invented things like spell check and grammar check... :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:  all jokes aside though, it's a little early to think about the i4... they're a whole new beast.... just my $.02... whatever you do, ride safe

I hope he paid cash for it or is making some really good sized payments, otherwise he is going to end up upside down on his bike loan because the bike is only going to depreciate between now and next spring. Especially due to mileage, wear and tear, time, the new line up of bikes coming out, and many other factors...

How someone can think they are ready to dance when they've just barely learned to crawl is beyond me.  :dunno:

I ran into this guy so many times when I was looking for my 04.  He'd say, "But I still owe (insert ridiculous amount between $4-5K here) and was hoping to just get what I owe out of it..."  Once even $4,500 owed on a 04!  The thing is, Ebay has these bikes all the time, 04's going for around $3,300 max and 05's not usually selling because of high reserve prices...

A bit of free, albeit unasked for advice...Keep the GS and have fun with it.  It really is a very fun bike. :cheers:

Quote from: ApyungI did not completely break it in properly....by 150 miles I was rolling on the throttle.  I took long rides with my brothers one with a 02 ZX6R Ninja and the other with a Duc SPS 9--, basically had to full throttle just to keep with them.  Currently, I do let it the revs fly and have fun with the throttle.  In two weeks it will go in for service.  I am planning on stepping up to the 600s in spring.  I was just getting ball park figures for now and if I was able to get a high $ i would just do it now and take it slow with the 600.

No point in getting a quote now. It will be completely different when you go and sell the GS next spring.

I actually thought a lot like you when I got my first GS. Gonna have it for a year or so and move up to a 600. It's been 9 months and 2500 miles later and I can't see myself "moving up" anytime soon. If anything, I'll later on compliment my GS with another bike, but I'll never get rid of it. Hopefully your GS will go to a good home and owner who will appreciated it and actually be able to take advantage of the hidden power and flickability there. There is no way you were able to do that in 500 miles.

Quote from: GeeP

Quote from: ApyungI took long rides with my brothers one with a 02 ZX6R Ninja and the other with a Duc SPS 9--

Head to the Dairy Queen the next town over huh?    :lol:

I'm still trying to figure out how many "long rides" you can take in 6 months and not hit 500 miles.  :?

Quote from: roguegeekI actually thought a lot like you when I got my first GS. Gonna have it for a year or so and move up to a 600... If anything, I'll later on compliment my GS with another bike, but I'll never get rid of it.

:thumb: same here. i wanted to ditch the bike after a week cause two of my friends got cbrs, they've both damaged their bikes now. i'll make the payments for the 2 years and keep this bike and just get another one. This bike will eventually be my wear and tear bike for the abuse i'll put it through later on. :guns:

one friend got bumped from behind by a car and ran into the curb, car took off. he cracked about every fairing on the right side.
one friend was getting off the freeway and hit a bump and the back tire was in the air, he tried to avoid a car and tapped the front brake and hit the curb and went superman into the dirt. not a scratch on him, his jeans got torn, but he was just shaken up from it. wear your gear all the time, he'd probably have no palms left if he was wearing no gloves.

funny thing is, the one that flew off his bike doing 60 off the freeway looked worst than his bike. and my friend that got bumped from behind (slow speed, he was making a right turn) bike looked like total shaZam!, like it fell off a building.

Quote from: Badger

Quote from: GeeP

Quote from: ApyungI took long rides with my brothers one with a 02 ZX6R Ninja and the other with a Duc SPS 9--

Head to the Dairy Queen the next town over huh?    :lol:

I'm still trying to figure out how many "long rides" you can take in 6 months and not hit 500 miles.  :?

No joke, Badger. I try to get a 150-200 mile ride in at least every other weekend, if not every weekend. I've had my bike for about a month now (not including time in the shop) and I've put on more than 500 miles (I think :P). All the same, there is so much more I can do with the GS. There is ALWAYS more to learn.

As a newbie rider, I can say I've experienced the time where I felt it was time to upgrade... feeling, I've got this down.  I can say after a good ride in serious canyon, I have a new respect for the bike, and realize there is plenty more to master.

Quote from: BadgerI'm still trying to figure out how many "long rides" you can take in 6 months and not hit 500 miles.  :?

My definition of a long ride leaves you over 500 miles...

500 miles since April and ready to move on :roll:   I have had my '05 since April and just ticked over something like 4,700 miles and I am still learning about riding, and will continue to learn when I move up.  Some of my long rides have been over half what is on your bike.  Yeah, I will almost certainly move up to a SV1000S this winter but I feel I know alot more about riding than when I had 500 miles on the odometer.  Personally, and I could be off base here, I think you think your ready to move up because your friends have bigger bikes and you have a hard time keeping up.  Yup, anyone else invision a new rider on a Gixxer tryin to keep up with his buds....accident waiting to happen IMO.  "Ride your own" ride man and learn a little bout riding a motorcycle before moving up.  Could save you a new bike that is twisted up, or your life :dunno:  In any event your gonna do what you wish, best of luck whetever you choose.

Yeah, I've done 500 miles in a weekend before.  :lol: After about 8,200 miles on my '04 GS, riding in twisties and long highway rides..thunderstorms..temps in the 20's to the high 90's..gravel, backroads, thruway, city streets...you name it (except track riding). I still don't think I've mastered the GS. It's like the guitar; easy to play but difficult to master.

500 miles, what are you going to do all afternoon?

guys, I'm just past 2700 miles on a 05 GSF, so I know you all agree when I say:
"Im ready to move to a  GSX1300R busa"  :cheers:

after all, it's only 1299cc  :roll:

Quote"Im ready to move to a GSX1300R busa"

MOVE ON? What's wrong with you? I STARTED on a GSX1300R busa...

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Ah, give the guy a break.  500 miles isn't all that much (about a month's worth of riding, IMO)... but its enough for most people to become competent with the basic operation of a motorcycle.  I don't see a huge problem with him upgrading....  after all he didn't say that he'd mastered the gs500, he just said that he wanted something with better straight-line acceleration.  That's understandable to me.   How many of us here would jump at the chance to wave a magic wand on our GS and give it more hp?   The main difference here is that the original poster isn't particularly attached to his gs.

Quote from: TarzanBoyAh, give the guy a break.  500 miles isn't all that much (about a month's worth of riding, IMO)... but its enough for most people to become competent with the basic operation of a motorcycle.  I don't see a huge problem with him upgrading....  after all he didn't say that he'd mastered the gs500, he just said that he wanted something with better straight-line acceleration.  That's understandable to me.   How many of us here would jump at the chance to wave a magic wand on our GS and give it more hp?   The main difference here is that the original poster isn't particularly attached to his gs.

I think the concern everyone has (and I think it is just that...not just trying to demean this guy) is not with their grasp of basic motorcycle operation.

The other day, while moving slowly I juiced the throttle a bit more than I intended (in 1st gear).  The GS jumped forward a bit, but all was well.  On a gixxer, I probably would have been off balance, on one wheel, or on the ground.  The real concern seems to be that you can be as careful as you want to be, but it's those unexpected situations where intent doesn't match reality where people get into trouble.  Sure, this can happen on the GS (note all the posts about dropping it), but it can happen much faster on a larger bike.  Sure, many folks have successully started on a 600 without serious incident or death, but there is no shortage of stories about people who weren't so lucky.

The tone that I hear in this thread is that if he can't keep up with his 600cc bretheren on the GS, that is -all the more reason- to not move up.  He should be able to keep up just fine under street riding conditions (unless they're all being stupid quick...and that's a whole other post in and of itself).  It's not necessarily a problem with the bike, it's more likely a problem with the rider.  If he doesn't feel the GS is quick/agile enough, he's probably doing something wrong, and getting more displacement isn't going to fix that (although it might mask the symptoms).  It's probably also true that there is nothing that an inexperienced rider can do (safely) on a gixxer that you can't do on a GS.

All that said, he can certainly do whatever he wants.  I think people are just trying to encourage caution, especially because this mindset seems common.  Even if this wasn't a GS board, I'd expect he'd get similar grief (see http://www.gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21319 for an example).  To each his own.  But it appears that people are trying to highlight what they believe to be a lack of good judgement, based on incomplete experience, in what is almost certainly a futile attempt to save this guy from himself and prevent him from ending up a statistic or a Darwinian casualty.

Feel free to disagree, after all, what do I know?   :mrgreen:

Any idiot can twist the throttle and go fast in a straight line. (I'm living proof)

A superior rider uses their exceptional judgement to avoid situations that would require their exceptional skills.
- old aviation wisdom, adjusted for context

Quote from: BadgerI think people are just trying to encourage caution, especially because this mindset seems common ... Feel free to disagree, after all, what do I know?   :mrgreen:

Actually, you make a LOT of good points. I think what's uppermost in almost all the dear souls on this board is that we all CARE for those who cross our paths here. Sure, we give each other a hard time, rib each other a lot, and we always highly recommend a 'busa to cocky newbies, but we do it with lightness, love, and taffy. :P

I don't want to see ANY of us here laying on the ground with our foot hanging off of our leg by a vein (now THAT was a sobering video, and it should be required watching in the MSF!)...

Better tough love here than pats on the butt and sending someone on their way to hurting themselves.  :kiss:

Hey, where's all these pats on the butt you're refering too...I'll take some of that!!

Seriously though, being a newbie to the GS myself I worry that he may miss how much experience you guys really have.  This site is really amazing, there is tons of stuff that can really save your butt (back to that again).  Hopefully he will read through some of this stuff and take it to heart.

+1 to everything Badger said. Eloquently and excellently written.

If you can't keep up with higher displacement bikes on the GS, then you've got more to learn. This is a very broad statement I realize, but you get the jist of it.

There is an instructor at Texas World Speedway who works for RideSmart that uses a GS for his instructor bike. He can easily wipe the floor with the liter bikes he comes across.

Manassas, Va to Leesburge, Va hitting up both back roads and major roads.

i was going to start out with a 600.  I found an 02 F4i with low mileage for 4200.  I only decided on a GS500 since it was slightly more and new.  I havent racked on the miles becuz for the first 2 months i did small trips around the neightborhood and all to rack on the 150 miles.  Then i took a long 4 hr ride and doubled the mileage to 300.  Since then i took 2 other rides to get another 150 miles in and this past week i rode sat and sun.  i feel like i have the straight line down and feel that i can do a basic corner and turn.  I do have more to learn.  but just thinking and looking I would like to go to a 600.  i'm willing to take it slow and learn a 600.  i know it will be a big differnce.  I am also looking for something a little lighter so its more mangeable.  and i probally have another 500 miles with the GS to learn more of the basics before the upgrade.  thanks for all the tips and responses.

Quote from: Apyungand i probally have another 500 miles with the GS to learn more of the basics before the upgrade.  thanks for all the tips and responses.

1000 is an awfully low amount of miles in terms of the learning curve. My 8-year-old neice can ride straight lines, but what about hazard response, twisty roads, emergency stops, emergency acceleration, etc. I'm not getting on your case, but I think there's a lot more out there that you should know before jumping up 100 cc. Yes, it's only 100 cc, but it's a WORLD of difference. I would love a TL1000 or SV650 right now, but I really don't feel safe getting one.

And you're gonna get it in the butt when you sell your bike. I can't imagine that you have paid off the loan yet, correct? You can't get the title transferred until you pay off your loan.

And even when I get another bike, I'm keeping the GS. It's a great all-around bike and you're the original owner, so that should be worth something to you; I know it is to me.

Dave  :cheers:

Quote from: AlphaFire X5There is an instructor at Texas World Speedway who works for RideSmart that uses a GS for his instructor bike. He can easily wipe the floor with the liter bikes he comes across.

One of the NESBA control riders has a V-Strom.  Now that's a fun one to have blow by you.
http://studio819.smugmug.com/photos/26480224-M-1.jpg

A GS500 is fast enough to get into trouble on the street.  An inline-4 is fast enough to make it a concerted effort of will to not get in trouble on the street.  And you get more maintenance, fuel efficiency that a car could beat, insurance that will buy you a GS500 on its own, and really expensive fairings as part of the package deal.

OK, I have always been in the dark about this but have never thought to ask: What is the difference between and inline-4 and a V-Twin. Presumably it's like it sounds (I4 is a straight 4-cyl and Twin is a 2-cyl?), but there seems to be a lot of talk about which is preferred. I take it from her last post that RG is in favor if the V-Twin, and I am wanting to know why one is "better" than the other.

And what types of bikes have what? Like is a CBR600 a I-4 and a SV650 a V-T? I am leaning towards things like SVs, TLs, etc. for a future bike, so what are these?

I am not a smart boy,
Dave  :cheers:

Quote from: Apyungi was going to start out with a 600.

Right.  A lot of people have started on 600's, and I would venture to say that if you stay aware of your limitations, you'll probably be fine.

Quote from: Apyungi feel like i have the straight line down and feel that i can do a basic corner and turn.

I think this is the part that is going to concern people the most.  Straight is easy...motorcycles are laterally stable at speed.  Straight and fast is easy (dangerous, but easy).  Low speed maneuvering is more challenging, and can be extremely dangerous when combined with excess torque.  If you twist the throttle a little too much too suddenly during a turn, you're going to lose traction on the back wheel and probably drop it and slide.  The high torque bikes demand smooth throttle control.

Quote from: Apyungi'm willing to take it slow and learn a 600.

Willing? Sure.  Able? Remains to be seen.

Quote from: Apyungi know it will be a big differnce.

Probably not as much as you think.

Quote from: ApyungI am also looking for something a little lighter so its more mangeable.

Realize that a gixxer, while lighter, also has a higher seat position.  Don't know how tall you are, but the reduction in weight combined with the higher position significantly alters the height of the center of gravity.  In my book that makes it easier to drop, harder to hold upright, but YMMV.  I'd have to defer to someone who's ridden both.  If you're having a hard time managing the 500, I expect it's going to be worse with a 600. *shrug*

Quote from: Apyungthanks for all the tips and responses.

If nothing else, stay tuned on this board.  I'm fairly new here, and all of the folks here are extremely helpful on any number of issues from wrenching your bike to providing new and exciting ways to drop it.

Be safe.

Quote from: 2005-GS500-PDXOK, I have always been in the dark about this but have never thought to ask: What is the difference between and inline-4 and a V-Twin. Presumably it's like it sounds (I4 is a straight 4-cyl and Twin is a 2-cyl?), but there seems to be a lot of talk about which is preferred.

Inline means just that, the cylinders are lined up in a row (also called a "straight" configuration) along the shaft.  V- configurations are lined up in pairs at an angle to one another (thus the "V").  A V-8 has two rows of four cylinders, each pair is timed in opposition with it's buddy cylinder so that they alternate the power stroke (remember the 4 strokes:  suck, squish, bang, blow...only one of them generates power).  The V-Twin has 2 cylinders, oriented in a V.

The general consensus (in cars anyway) is that inlines are smoother, but V's generate more power.  I drive a straight 6.  Inlines are typically heavier and longer.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote from: 2005-GS500-PDXPresumably it's like it sounds (I4 is a straight 4-cyl and Twin is a 2-cyl?), but there seems to be a lot of talk about which is preferred. I take it from her last post that RG is in favor if the V-Twin, and I am wanting to know why one is "better" than the other.

One isn't better than the other; they're made for different purposes. I prefer a V-Twin for the street.  It's typically torquier down low and doesn't rev as high.  I-4s were made expressly for the purpose of wringing every last hp possible out of a given displacement. They do that very, very well.  All of the V-twins I've had have been fuel-efficient, and the I-4 I have has not been, even cruising at a fairly low RPM all day.  I'm not sure why that is, but there you go.
Early I-4s, from what I hear, had sheooty power down low and a burst up high.  The modern ones have rather nicely linear power delivery and aren't lacking down low.

It's pretty fun to listen to them at the track as they go on the front straight.  The V-twins go brawwwwww; the I-4s go Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeyaaawwwww.... like an F1 car.

Edit: RG got to some of this first.

The TL, SV (sport V?), all Buell (except the Blast) are v-twin, I think.

V-twins won't rev as high and as fast as in I4 (I think), but have more torque (I think).  

Pretty sure most popular sport bikes, the 600's  750's, and 1000's are I4's.

Triumph is doing 3 cylinders in some bikes, Speed Triple, new Daytona 650 (which can compete in the 600 class, I think).

Isn't the Honda RC51 a 1000cc five cylinder?  Some sort of v-5 configuration (MotoGP)?

Another question:

What is the deal with all the firing orders moto GP bikes use?  Can someone explain "Big Bang" firing order to me?

Quote from: Jake DIsn't the Honda RC51 a 1000cc five cylinder?  Some sort of v-5 configuration (MotoGP)?

From Honda's '06 RC51 specs:

QuoteEngine Type 999cc liquid-cooled 90-degree V-twin

Quote from: Jake D
What is the deal with all the firing orders moto GP bikes use?  Can someone explain "Big Bang" firing order to me?

Google Can.  The first search result looks pretty good.

Respect!

The I4s spin faster and higher because they have lighter parts. Thusly, they can get more peak horsepower and more peak torque out of the engines because the RPMs are higher. Twins, on the other hand, are moving pistons that are twice the size, and thusly can't move them as fast as an I4s. Twins produce more torque down low due to the chamber size and the bore of the piston. 90-degree V-twins are even better because they don't need a counterbalancer, as they are balanced naturally with the V configuration.

Quote from: AlphaFire X590-degree V-twins are even better because they don't need a counterbalancer, as they are balanced naturally with the V configuration.

Examples? Besides the RC-51.

Quote from: AlphaFire X5The I4s spin faster and higher because they have lighter parts.

Partly true.  But there's a lot of engineering that goes into revving that high, like preventing valve float.  F1 cars have pneumatic valves.  Also, generally speaking, more cylinders = higher revs, since the piston doesn't have to travel as far for a given displacement and the whole engine can go at higher rpm because the individual pistons aren't moving as fast.
Ducati has started doing a funky thing where the valves are physically linked, so one has to close as the other opens.  Nice bit of engineering.

Quote from: AlphaFire X590-degree V-twins are even better because they don't need a counterbalancer, as they are balanced naturally with the V configuration.

Nope.  The only "naturally" balanced engines are 180 degree twins (BMW boxers), I-6s, and any duplicate of I-6s (V-12s, e.g.).

Quote from: AlphaFire X5The I4s spin faster and higher because they have lighter parts. Thusly, they can get more peak horsepower and more peak torque out of the engines because the RPMs are higher. Twins, on the other hand, are moving pistons that are twice the size, and thusly can't move them as fast as an I4s. Twins produce more torque down low due to the chamber size and the bore of the piston. 90-degree V-twins are even better because they don't need a counterbalancer, as they are balanced naturally with the V configuration.

What's always confounded me is the fact that a twin is only delivering power half the time.  With 4+ cylinders you always have a cylinder on a power stroke.  With a twin, one is on the way up while the other is heading down, and it only pushes on the alternate downs.  The twins give have more raw oomph, but the inlines have constant oomph.

Quote from: BadgerWhat's always confounded me is the fact that a twin is only delivering power half the time.  With 4+ cylinders you always have a cylinder on a power stroke.  With a twin, one is on the way up while the other is heading down, and it only pushes on the alternate downs.  The twins give have more raw oomph, but the inlines have constant oomph.

But at high HP, thats not a good thing since the rear wheel will slip more (ahem, hence big bang timeing)

Quote from: RoadstergalNope.  The only "naturally" balanced engines are 180 degree twins (BMW boxers), I-6s, and any duplicate of I-6s (V-12s, e.g.).

Almost all aircraft piston engines are horizontally opposed (180* cylinder pairing).

Oh, try a thumper.  A power stroke every 720 degrees.

Don't Harleys get their "thu-thump...thu-thump...thu-thump" sound because the two pistone are on the same pin on the crank, making cylinder 1 fire, with cylinder 2 firing 90 (or so) degrees later, making it have a 270 degree rotation with no power stroke? I remember readin that on HowThingsWork.com or some shaZam! like that.

I probably didn't describe that very well. But imagine two pistons on on crank pin.

Or maybe it's one piston firing per revolution, but same theory...shaZam!, now I'm confused...


Dave  :dunno:  :cheers:

OK, here's what I was meaning to explain:

QuoteA Harley engine has two pistons. The difference in the Harley engine is that the crankshaft has only one pin, and both pistons connect to it. This design, combined with the V arrangement of the cylinders, means that the pistons cannot fire at even intervals. Instead of one piston firing every 360 degrees, a Harley engine goes like this:

   * A piston fires.
   * The next piston fires at 315 degrees.
   * There is a 405-degree gap.
   * A piston fires.
   * The next piston fires at 315 degrees.
   * There is a 405-degree gap.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question325.htm

"What gives a Harley-Davidson its distinctive sound?"

Heh, I described it to a labmate as sounding like farting in a Jacuzzi.  Very burbly.  Thanks for the link!

Quote from: Roadstergal"What gives a Harley-Davidson its distinctive sound?"

Heh, I described it to a labmate as sounding like farting in a Jacuzzi.  Very burbly.  Thanks for the link!

That's a little more apt; I'll use that one.  ;)

Dave  :cheers:

Quote from: RoadstergalNope.  The only "naturally" balanced engines are 180 degree twins (BMW boxers), I-6s, and any duplicate of I-6s (V-12s, e.g.).

I'm not very well versed with combustion engine technology/terms but I think the 180-degree twin configuration you are talking about is usually referred to as 'flat'.  For example, the Honda Valkyrie is a flat 6 (to my knowledge), making
its 1.3L engine more powerful than many compact cars and small european nation-states :-)

From what I have heard about the difference between inline and V configured pistons is that considerably more torque is delivered on the low end, delivering much more power to the bike in starts and turns.  The trade-off is considerably less
power at high rpms. I seem to recall someone telling me that V's won't/can't rev as high as inline engines, which lowers
the top attainable speed of a 'v' engine.

Again, I am a relatively uninformed layman, but in practice this seems analogous to how racers set up their bikes to have either a high or a low gear ratio depending on the track and conditions (low ratio = more low end power).  I imagine the physics involved has more to do with the overall moment of the force applied by the pistons being greater due to the staggered angle... but that's just a wild guess.  I'll let an Mech.Eng. who knows engines fill us in

aircraft piston engines...   other than radials.


V-twins    

harley
SV series
TL series

all use a motor that is inline with the bike which makes for a narrow bike

moto guzzi  puts them in sideways.

There are 5 cylinder MotoGP bikes, correct?

Some of the race teams are getting AWAY from Big Bang, correct?

Also, the Suzuki TL is a 90 degree v-twin or 45 degree?  Is the SV 90 or 45?  45 degree v's have more vibration, correct?

Also, I think there is a bike designer in Seattle named John Cyz that is making a production bike that uses a counter rotating in-line 4 so the crank for two cylinders turn clockwise, that the other two turn counter clockwise.

Quote from: Badger

Quote from: RoadstergalNope.  The only "naturally" balanced engines are 180 degree twins (BMW boxers), I-6s, and any duplicate of I-6s (V-12s, e.g.).

Almost all aircraft piston engines are horizontally opposed (180* cylinder pairing).

Are you referring to the rotary engine design... that mazda incorporated into the RX-8? :-)

I have yet to drive one, but I've heard that there is no smoother engine on the face of the earth.

Quote from: TarzanBoyI'm not very well versed with combustion engine technology/terms but I think the 180-degree twin configuration you are talking about is usually referred to as 'flat'.

I've heard flat used to refer to inlines.  It's referred to infrequently enough that I just call it horizontally opposed when I need to refer to it.  BMW's version is called a boxer.

Quote from: TarzanBoy

Quote from: Badger

Quote from: RoadstergalNope.  The only "naturally" balanced engines are 180 degree twins (BMW boxers), I-6s, and any duplicate of I-6s (V-12s, e.g.).

Almost all aircraft piston engines are horizontally opposed (180* cylinder pairing).

Are you referring to the rotary engine design... that mazda incorporated into the RX-8? :-)

I have yet to drive one, but I've heard that there is no smoother engine on the face of the earth.

Nope. That's different. Horizontally-opposed isn't a rotary. I think only Mazda uses it.

Here's another good article I read when I had a big deadline that I wanted to put off

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/rotary-engine.htm

Mazda rotary engines are Wankle engines, and don't use pistons at all.  They use (usually) two rotors that are triangle shaped that create their compression against the outer wall of the engine as they rotate, fire, and move on.  Very high reving.

Wankel.  I make fun of my friend's little Wankel.  They're marvelous engines that make tons of power for their displacement and have very few moving parts to break.  Negatives - lousy fuel efficiency, easily flooded, and early designs had a tendancy to burn oil.

Suzuki made a rotary motorcycle, the RE5.



http://auto.howstuffworks.com/rotary-engine.htm

Thanks for posting that link again.

Quote from: RoadstergalI make fun of my friend's little Wankel.

:lol:

Quote from: 2005-GS500-PDXThanks for posting that link again.

D'oh.  I had a Dave moment.

Quote from: Roadstergal

Quote from: 2005-GS500-PDXThanks for posting that link again.

D'oh.  I had a Dave moment.

Other Dave, I am pretty sure.

Dave  :cheers:

Quote from: davipumoto guzzi  puts them in sideways.

geez, hasn't anybody told them yet?

There are too many Daves.  I once dated a Dave, was friends with two Daves, and bought a bike from a Dave.


These are the Daves I know, I know
These are the Daves I know
These are the Daves I know, I know
These are the Daves I know

David Hoffman
He works in my dad's store
He's worked here for 12 years
He'll probably work here for more

These are the Daves I know, I know
These are the Daves I know
These are the Daves I know, I know
These are the Daves I know

Dave Gort
I've known since I was six
In grade eight he broke his leg
So we got drunk and sick

These are the Daves I know, I know
These are the Daves I know
These are the Daves I know, I know
These are the Daves I know

Some of them are Davids
[Dave Gort: But most of us are Daves]
They all have their own hands
But they come from different moms

These are the Daves I know, I know
These are the Daves I know
These are the Daves I know, I know
These are the Daves I know

Dave Jadiski
Man, this cat can swing
He weighs almost 50 pounds
And he delivers my paper on time

These are the Daves I know, I know
These are the Daves I know
These are the Daves I know, I know
These are the Daves I know

Dave Capisano
I hardly know him
...
[Bruce stands around, looking vaguely uncomfortable for the rest of the measure]

These are the Daves I know, I know
These are the Daves I know
These are the Daves I know, I know
These are the Daves I know

[Next two measures sung by the Daves Bruce knows: ]
We are the Daves he knows, he knows
We are the Daves he knows
We are the Daves he knows, he knows
We are the Daves he knows

Some of us them are Davids
But most of us are Daves
We all have our own hands
But we come from different moms

These are the Daves I know, I know
[Daves: We are the Daves he knows, he knows]
[All: These are the Daves]

Quote from: indestructibleman

Quote from: davipumoto guzzi  puts them in sideways.

geez, hasn't anybody told them yet?

Valve adjustments are a snap.

Quote from: TarzanBoy

Quote from: Badger

Quote from: RoadstergalNope.  The only "naturally" balanced engines are 180 degree twins (BMW boxers), I-6s, and any duplicate of I-6s (V-12s, e.g.).

Almost all aircraft piston engines are horizontally opposed (180* cylinder pairing).

Are you referring to the rotary engine design... that mazda incorporated into the RX-8? :-)

I have yet to drive one, but I've heard that there is no smoother engine on the face of the earth.

Nope.  Horizontally opposed just means the cylinders are 180* offset...it still works like a conventional engine.  Rotary engines are different.  "Rotax" engines (that's the manufacturer) are used frequently in homebuilts, but I'm not sure if that's the same concept Mazda uses.  Radial engines are also different...they have cylinders arranged in a circle around the crankshaft, and can really only be found on classic aircraft...the engines are typically huge and thus only work well in taildraggers (they have a higher nose posture on the ground that provides better prop/ground clearance).  I'm pretty sure there are no current production radials.

Quote from: RoadstergalWankel.  I make fun of my friend's little Wankel.

And then he showed you what he could do with it...

It's not the displacement; it's how much you put down at the rear.

I love wankels. I'd want and RX-8 if I didn't own a GS500... little engines are a massive 1.3L and put out 238HP for the RX-8. The RX-7's were less fuel/power efficient, but could have massive turbos put on (35-40PSI of boost from a stock turbo) and had something like 280HP, but the new engines are almost drop-in replacements for the rx-7s.... and could likely be boosted just as much. There's tri-rotor modified RX-7s that put out over 800HP. And thats still less than a 2.5L engine.

My wife (before she was) drove an RX-7. Man could it move. Though, it did suck gas (15mpg on the highway). Her parents sold it for a couple grand after she moved out, the kid that bought turned around and sold it for over $4k.

A wise man once said, "Either you have three rotors and two turbos or you don't."

He could say that because his car was much faster.

Suzuki TL1000s and SV series are all 90 degree V-twins.
Every Ducati twin is a 90 degree V-twin
Guzzis are transversely mounted (cross frame) 90 degree V-Twins

MotoGP Bikes:
Suzuki: Inline 4
Honda: V-5 (or something. It's a 5 cyl, though)
Ducati: V-4
Blata: 6cyl (don't know the configuration)
Kawasaki: Inline 4

And it seems that, as someone stated previously, V-twins have more low-end umph, even if they are 4cyl engines. It is most likely due to the different timing requirements than an inline 4. Inline 4s fire as such: outter two cylinders, inner two cylinders. Outside, inside. V-4s fire some other way (I forget).

Rotary engines are awesome things. The reason they produce so much power is due to their shape. The triangle shaped rotary things have arcs in them, sloping inwards. When the rotor revolves around and it is time for a firing sequence, there are essentially THREE combustion chambers per rotor, as opposed to ONE for a piston.

So would a V-Twin get up on one wheel easier than an I-4? I am just trying to break this down for us idiots.

If the v-twin has more low-end power, wouldn't an SV650 hit a wheelie as easy as, if not easier than, a GSX-R600?

Not to bring stunting up, but I'm just trying to get this straight.

Dave  :cheers:

It depends on where you are revving it from, as well as the wheelbase. The Gixxer6 has a shorter wheelbase than the SV, and if you are using the upper powerband of the Gixxer, there is more power there than the SV, thus allowing it to wheelie easier.

Oh oh oh...I was confusing "powerband (engine speed)" and "bike speed"

I was thinking in terms of at low speeds, how the SV would be more apt at popping it up.

But it's not relevant; the RPMs is what we're talking about. OK, I got it.

Dave  :cheers:

Quote from: 2005-GS500-PDXIf the v-twin has more low-end power, wouldn't an SV650 hit a wheelie as easy as, if not easier than, a GSX-R600?

Not that I do wheelies, but from what I understand, they have more to do with the chassis and the delivery of power than the torque.
A good rider can wheelie anything.  A friend of mine went to the GP at Laguna Seca two years ago, and saw a guy on a Goldwing with his wife on the back wheelie it from one light to the next.  The sportbike guys' jaws were dropping - I would have loved to have seen that.   :lol:
Edit - OK, I type slowly.

Quote from: AlphaFire X5V-twins have more low-end umph, even if they are 4cyl engines.

Twins are 2cyl. ;)  You mean V-4s?

Quote from: RoadstergalTwins are 2cyl. ;)  You mean V-4s?

Yes. Yes I did. Thank you.

And...

(http://www.davesgoldwing.com/wheelie2.jpg)

(http://www.davesgoldwing.com/knee-rgt.jpg)

(http://www.davesgoldwing.com/wheelie-under.jpg)

The exhaust pipes are like wheelie bars.

You have got to be kidding me.

Bwahahaaaaa!   :thumb:  :cheers:

That Goldwing that is knee dragging, uh, I think it is stopped and actually just fell over.

Needs a medical alert braclet.

Those wheelies are nuts!  8 )

Quote from: Jake DThat Goldwing that is knee dragging, uh, I think it is stopped and actually just fell over.

Look at the sparks.

Look at my sweet picture! That guy's face is all I can stare at in the shot. His expression is probably the best shaZam! I have ever seen.

"Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"

I was just about to post "love the new avatar!"    :lol:

Quote from: BadgerRadial engines are also different...they have cylinders arranged in a circle around the crankshaft, and can really only be found on classic aircraft...the engines are typically huge and thus only work well in taildraggers (they have a higher nose posture on the ground that provides better prop/ground clearance). I'm pretty sure there are no current production radials.

An Aussie company called Rotec has just started producing radial engines again.



They have two versions, this one that's 110HP and 7 Cylinders, the other is 150HP and 9 Cylinders.  Pretty cool engines...

Can you even imagine trying to synch 9 carbs?   :o

Quote from: RVertigoCan you even imagine trying to synch 9 carbs?   :o

Heh.  I think 9 cylinders is one of the 'sweet spots' for radial engines, but there have been more.  The firing pattern of radials require an odd number of cylinders, but some applications incorporated cylinders in multiple rows.  Pratt & Whitney had a 28 cylinder engine (4 offset rows of 7 cylinders radial/helical).  The engine displacement was something like 75 cubic LITERS, and developed over 3500bhp.  Used mainly in long-range bombers after WWII, right before being made obsolete by turbine engines.

I'm sure this must have something to do with the original topic... :roll:

:mrgreen: