GStwin.com GS500 Message Forum

Now that I have your attention (or at least Pablo's).... ;)

The world was wet this morning when I started my morning commute. When I would downshift setting up to turn a corner, my back tire would lose traction. This was at slow speed, shifting down into first... It happened a couple of times on the surface streets (no white paint or oil slicks that I could see).

Now, is this because new stock tires suck (I have slightly over 1K miles on the tires now...out of break-in baby!! w00t!), or is this rider error? I was going quite slowly, and I don't think I was downshifting too quickly, but  :dunno: ...

Any comments--useful or otherwise--welcome (except from JetSwing...I'll simply tolerate his comments!  :lol:  :kiss: )

Thanks!!  :mrgreen:

Were you letting the clutch out fast?

I spin my tire on dry pavement when I let the clutch out too fast.

You need to match revs when you downshift.  Give it throttle to make the revs match the rear wheel speed for the new gear when you release the clutch. Otherwise the engine will try to make the rear tire spin at a speed that is not the bike's speed.  Better traction conditions will cover up not rev-matching, so rain is good practice.

Easing clutch out slowly and carefully, especially after the first time.  :o

It was only a slight non-gripping by the tire, but certainly enough to get my attention!

I do it 'cause it's fun.   :lol:

I was about to say, but RG beat me.

Rev matching people!

Takes practice, but once you get used to the character of the bike, it becomes second nature.

Roadstergal is right.  Rev-match.  While you are letting out the clutch lever slowly, "blip" the throttle (give it a little gas) while you're in neutral on the way to first gear.  If you practice and master this, this will really smooth out your downshifts.

Quote from: RoadstergalYou need to match revs when you downshift.  Give it throttle to make the revs match the rear wheel speed for the new gear when you release the clutch. Otherwise the engine will try to make the rear tire spin at a speed that is not the bike's speed.  Better traction conditions will cover up not rev-matching, so rain is good practice.

So, if I'm understanding correctly, I'm probably not giving *enough* throttle after the shift? My mind tells me that I should ease off on the throttle because I'm going faster than the back tire...? Let me know if I have this wrong.... my mind isn't wanting to grasp this concept too well (yes, it's getting the matching revs to rear wheel, but it's not wanting to wrap itself around the more-throttle part)....

On the GS, I found that I *did* downshift too fast sometimes, and the back end would wobble (now THAT will wake you up), but I thought I was cured of that on the SVS, especially since his controls are more sensitive than the GS's.

I guess I'm going to have to do more wet-pavement riding if the dry pavement has been hiding my mistakes!  :thumb:

Quote from: xtalman.. If you practice and master this, this will really smooth out your downshifts.

Uh...my downshifting isn't the most graceful at times.... it sounds as though I have some rev-matching practice to do!  8)

Quote from: pandySo, if I'm understanding correctly, I'm probably not giving *enough* throttle after the shift? My mind tells me that I should ease off on the throttle because I'm going faster than the back tire...? Let me know if I have this wrong.... my mind isn't wanting to grasp this concept too well (yes, it's getting the matching revs to rear wheel, but it's not wanting to wrap itself around the more-throttle part)....

If you're downshifting, the engine will be spinning more slowly than the rear wheel.  Think about it as going x mph at 4000rpm.  When you go down a gear, you're still going x mph, but that corresponds to 6000rpm in the new, lower gear.  So if you just let out the clutch, the engine will want to spin the rear wheel at what 4000rpm is in the new gear, which is less than x mph.  Since the bike is still going x mph, the speed of the bike and the speed of the rear wheel will not be the same, and the rear wheel will slip.

If you blip the throttle to 6000 rpm, however, everybody will now be on the same page, and the shift will be smooth.

This is especially important on the SV, because it has more torque than the GS and will spin the wheel at the engine speed more forcefully if you don't rev-match.

It's a matter of practice - you can't memorize all of the proper RPM, so you eventually just get a feeling for how much to blip.

More throttle. When you downshift your engine needs to go faster to match the rear wheel. Shifting gears doesn't magically make the rear wheel slow down, it just alters the gear ratio between the engine and the rear wheel.

Ok! This makes perfect sense to me! Thanks for 'splaining so clearly...my mind isn't resisting the "more throttle" idea now...it makes sense! I was thinking that the back tire was what was going more slowly (why would it? I don't know, but that's what my mind was thinking!  :lol: ) I guess I was thinking about it more as a front-end vs. back-end speed when it's actually a bike speed vs. engine speed...yes?

Thanks!  :mrgreen:  :cheers:

Quote from: RoadstergalIf you're downshifting, the engine will be spinning more slowly than the rear wheel.  Think about it as going x mph at 4000rpm.  When you go down a gear, you're still going x mph, but that corresponds to 6000rpm in the new, lower gear.  So if you just let out the clutch, the engine will want to spin the rear wheel at what 4000rpm is in the new gear, which is less than x mph.  Since the bike is still going x mph, the speed of the bike and the speed of the rear wheel will not be the same, and the rear wheel will slip.

If you blip the throttle to 6000 rpm, however, everybody will now be on the same page, and the shift will be smooth.

This is especially important on the SV, because it has more torque than the GS and will spin the wheel at the engine speed more forcefully if you don't rev-match.

It's a matter of practice - you can't memorize all of the proper RPM, so you eventually just get a feeling for how much to blip.

Quote from: pandyit's actually a bike speed vs. engine speed...yes?

Ig-zactly!  :cheers:

In a car you would pull in the clutch, shift to neutral, let go of clutch, blip, pull in the clutch, down shift, let go of clutch but since there's only one neutral point in a bike it would be difficult to do so...

Am I correct on a bike you pull in the clutch, shift down, blip, let go of clutch? Is that correct?

Quote from: pandy
.. My mind tells me that I should ease off on the throttle because I'm going faster than the back tire...?

If you are going faster than the back tire, you have done a stoppie and catapulted yourself off the bike, and should probably practice your braking, too.   :lol:

Seriously though, everyone else here has explained it pretty well.  Try it on dry pavement.  Get going in 3rd gear, then try downshifting to second:

1)Clutch lever in
2)Click down one gear with the shifter
3)Blip throttle, raising RPMS about 1000-2000 higher
4)Slowly release clutch lever

I think I got that right, but I don't even think of the steps anymore.

Quote from: RoadstergalIg-zactly!  :cheers:

You 'splained it in nice, simple, step-by-step, no-more-than two-syllable words, so even my simple brain was able to grasp the concept!  :lol:  :kiss:

Quote from: xtalmanIf you are going faster than the back tire, you have done a stoppie and catapulted yourself off the bike, and should probably practice your braking, too.   :lol:

pandy doing a stoppie....  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :?  :lol:

I got a good workout just from laughing at this vision!  :kiss:  :lol:

Quote from: toole2goIn a car you would pull in the clutch, shift to neutral, let go of clutch, blip, pull in the clutch, down shift, let go of clutch but since there's only one neutral point in a bike it would be difficult to do so...

Am I correct on a bike you pull in the clutch, shift down, blip, let go of clutch? Is that correct?

Yeah, you're right, I made a mistake earlier with the "neutral" remark.  In a car though, you can do the same thing, you don't necessarily have to be in neutral to blip the throttle.  You can just have the clutch in also.

Quote from: toole2goIn a car you would pull in the clutch, shift to neutral, let go of clutch, blip, pull in the clutch, down shift, let go of clutch but since there's only one neutral point in a bike it would be difficult to do so...

You don't have to double-clutch with synchros.  On my cars, I always just blipped with the clutch in while I was shifting.  Faster.

In cars I much prefer to downshift like this...  Press in clutch, shift, pop clutch.   :thumb:

Go to a track day and you'll have a date with a wall...

Quote from: RoadstergalGo to a track day and you'll have a date with a wall...

Walls communicate better than some menz!  :thumb:

Quote from: RVertigoIn cars I much prefer to downshift like this...  Press in clutch, shift, pop clutch.   :thumb:

I did that for a while. I burned out my clutch so damn fast it wasn't even funny. Let me tell you, it's a pain in the ass replacing clutch plates in a FWD car, too.

Quote from: RoadstergalGo to a track day and you'll have a date with a wall...

Why would I take a Hyundai to a track day?   :lol:

I've seen odder - there are twins in our car club who are both excellent drivers, and one of them had some crappy FWD rental that he took to the mini-track session that's the reward for the instructors after the driving school.  Malibu?  Something like that.  I took a ride, and the thing was just sideways all of the way around the track, and he was keeping up with cars a Malibu should never keep up with.

After the session, I looked at the car hood - it was a rainy day, and the hood was just covered with criss-cross mud splats.  Between that and the tire wear, I would love to have seen him return it.   :lol:

Malibus can be fun...  Somehow I got all 4 sliding down an on-ramp.   :dunno:

Rental insurance RULES!   :lol:

The Hyundai would be useless on a track...  I'd either get rear ended every time I went into a corner or the front would push through and end up in the wall.

I'd have to get some DAMN sticky tires to keep the front from pushing.

Nope, just a lot more skidpad time.  Understeer is curable with technique.  :)

I know all about understeer...   I've driven lots of FWD and a bug (which would understeer and fishtale at the same time  :o )...

This thing has the worst I've ever seen...  I have to take ramps and interchanges at only 5 over the suggested speed or the front just floats off into oblivion. :(  It actually pushes on the freeway going 80.   :roll:

But, the damn thing handles great at 110 MPH in a straight. :dunno:

Quote from: VTNewbI was about to say, but RG beat me.

Rev matching people!

Takes practice, but once you get used to the character of the bike, it becomes second nature.

Is there anything that breaks mechanically when you don't rev-match? At least something common?

Quote from: phire

Quote from: VTNewbI was about to say, but RG beat me.

Rev matching people!

Takes practice, but once you get used to the character of the bike, it becomes second nature.

Is there anything that breaks mechanically when you don't rev-match? At least something common?

If I'm not mistaken it is hard on the valves on the engine side (and obviously any hard jolt would impact the drivetrain (clutch, etc.))... but I'm no expert so I could be full of  :bs:  I think you'd have to be really downshifting hard to hurt things though.

Rev matching is where it's at.  It takes some practice for sure to be smooth.  It is almost like a spasm of the throttle hand...you pulled the clutch in and as you are kicking down a gear you blip at the same time then let out the clutch.  Like others said only need to raise the RPM by about 1,000.  Once you get smooth with that then start trying to give front brake while blipping down to turn or stop.   You will probibally be jerky with the front brake at first but you'll eventually smooth it out.  I use index finger and thumb around throttle and the other three fingers  for the brake.  I guess I really don't grip with the index..err, hell I don't know how I do it, it just happens I guess :lol:

Decided to take a pic
(http://x12.putfile.com/12/33523550367.jpg)

Quote from: phire
Is there anything that breaks mechanically when you don't rev-match? At least something common?

Your back tire might wear quicker

Harder on the clutch.

In direct answer to the question, though, possibly your head.

Quote from: cobalt135Rev matching is where it's at.  It takes some practice for sure to be smooth.  It is almost like a spasm of the throttle hand...you pulled the clutch in and as you are kicking down a gear you blip at the same time then let out the clutch.  ... :lol: Decided to take a pic

Thank you for the pic and additional description...this is *definitely* going to take some practice for me. Plus, I think I'm going to need to adjust my brake lever, cuz my hand just won't do throttling and braking well at the same time (and my hands aren't small!).

Practice, practice, practice...I was practicing some on today's long ride, but it's gonna take a loooong time to become smooth with this.

Thanks again to everyone for their input (including my bf :kiss:   , who's apparently been trying to tell me this stuff for a while :roll: ...good thing I'm good at listening, eh? :lol: ) !!!!  :mrgreen:

Quote from: RoadstergalIn direct answer to the question, though, possibly your head.

:? Ya...this is kinda the same thing my bf told me....  :?

Hmm, when I do rev matching, I've still got two fingers on the front brake, index and middle, and blip using the grip of my thumb and other fingers, along with my palm. It's a personal thing, I think; whichever way you feel most comfortable with giving throttle is the way it should be done. I feel most comfortable using the throttle without my index and middle fingers.

I just made this up.. off the top of my asleep head.. but..
I think to pratice rev matching, you should:

Get in a high gear with low rpm's
Pull in clutch
wait a sec...
Rev the engine back up (it has fallen now)
Let the clutch out modertly fast.
Review it. Did the engine need to speed up/slow down?
Figure out how much you were off by, and adjust it.
Repeat

Try one gear to the one right below it.
Try so that you don't feel the shift in your butt.
Then try two gears down, etc.

I think it not only makes the shifts smoother, but quicker for larger downshifts. (the engine doesnt have to speed up, you already did it)



/me ponders if that makes sense... gah need sleep...



AH! Here's a good question.. Can you get the engine to accelerate faster then if you were in neutral? Open the throttle, and include a huge downshift  non-revmatch? ie. go fast, pull clutch, let rpm drop, smash open throttle, while poping the clutch in a much lower gear?

Is there a point where not the rpm's but the acceleration of the engine itsself will be a problem?

Quote from: NightRydera whole buncha stuff....

:?

Anyone care to translate this into moto English for me?  :dunno:  :mrgreen:

Rev matchiunbg is for people that don;t like new tirews.   :nana:

OK... My drunk ass is foing to sleeps now/.

Note:  the entire downshifting procedure should be one fluid action.

Squeeze the clutch, change gears, give the throttle a sharp little twist and release it (blip it), and let out the clutch.  The whole thing should happen nearly simultaneously and result in a smooth shift.

Some additional thoughts:
Ultimately you're trying to accomplish two things:  get the engine spinning faster (closer to the speed it will be at in the new gear) and also unload the drive bits (if it were in gear it wouldn't be accellerating or engine braking).  

You don't have to pull the clutch all the way to the bar...use the first two fingers on the lever and use your ring finger to limit the travel of the clutch.  Less clutch movement = less 'useless' travel before it engages = finer control.  The closer you are to the correct engine speed, the faster you can reengage the clutch.  Ideally, you want to let the clutch out quickly to get it reengaged before the engine slows down (which would defeat the purpose of the blip).

The 'blip' doesn't have to be extremely accurate...just give it a quick twist and release.  It won't take long to get a feel for how much is enough.  Note that it varies depending on which gear you're in (i.e., 2nd to 1st is a much bigger blip than 6th to 5th) When the clutch engages it should happen smoothly (even if you just dump the clutch)...if it doesn't, reassess your blip.  If the bike hesitates when you release the clutch, give it a bigger twist...if it jerks forward, a little less.  It becomes an exercise in timing.  The result of good timing is smoothness.

Practice doing this while also applying the front brake.  Since you always want to be in the proper gear for the speed you're going, that means downshifting while braking.  Of course, you don't want to be under power and on the brake at the same time, so it's extra important to make sure the throttle is closed when you release the clutch...but you still want to go through the same clutch, shift, blip, release procedure for each gear as you decelerate.  Use two fingers on the brake and practice holding even pressure while you blip the throttle with the other two fingers.  Go through the whole cycle for each gear as you decelerate...three downshifts means three clutch operations.

Quote from: Roadstergal

Quote from: toole2goIn a car you would pull in the clutch, shift to neutral, let go of clutch, blip, pull in the clutch, down shift, let go of clutch but since there's only one neutral point in a bike it would be difficult to do so...

You don't have to double-clutch with synchros.  On my cars, I always just blipped with the clutch in while I was shifting.  Faster.

ditto.  no need for double clutching todays cars.  

i will add one thing that may have been covered already. but anywho,  when u rev match u dont get any engine braking.  so when im slowing down i wont blip the throttle/accelerator unless road conditions arent good.  the times i use rev matching, esp in my car, is when i need to drop to a lower gear for higher RPMs.  example, giong up a hill or around a curve.

Quote from: weaselnozewhen u rev match u dont get any engine braking. .

Wrong.  You rev-match THEN back off on the throttle and like magic have engine braking without tire chirping and causing the suspension distress.

Quote from: mjm

Quote from: weaselnozewhen u rev match u dont get any engine braking. .

Wrong.  You rev-match THEN back off on the throttle and like magic have engine braking without tire chirping and causing the suspension distress.

Outstanding! We've found another thing to "discuss" along the lines of oil!!!!  :lol:

Seriously, thanks to all for this discussion. It's really helping me to understand :thumb:   ...well..helping me to START to understand. Just when I think I'm getting pretty good at this moto thang, I learn something new, and I feel like a newbie again!  :?   :lol:  :mrgreen:

Quote from: mjm

Quote from: weaselnozewhen u rev match u dont get any engine braking. .

Wrong.  You rev-match THEN back off on the throttle and like magic have engine braking without tire chirping and causing the suspension distress.

Tires shouldn't chirp unless a) they're old and crappy or b) you're downshifting multiple gears from a high speed.

At least that's been the case in my 1800 miles of GS experience

I haven't had my tires chirp on me, but I have had the rear wheel hop on me. Now THAT is a frightening thing when you're going down a hill. Rev matching at higher revs is critical in order to keep your rear tire from jumping away from you like a frog on fire.

The art of mastering a motorcycle seems to me based on Riding Smooth.  (Believe this is the title of Reg Pridmore's book.)  To do this you need to practice and train yourself to react in a measured way with all control inputs.

Haven't mastered it, but I'm on my way.  Like what I read here and agree with most of it re: match engine speed for the velocity and gear.  Practice is necessary, something I'm getting precious little of with snow on the ground.  :x

Smooth.  Consistent.  Fast.  The first two naturally lead to the third.  Without the first two, you might feel like you're going fast, but you're not.

Ditto on the rev-match before engine braking.

Quote from: mjm

Quote from: weaselnozewhen u rev match u dont get any engine braking. .

Wrong.  You rev-match THEN back off on the throttle and like magic have engine braking without tire chirping and causing the suspension distress.

ok u get the same effect as if u just let off the throttle. but u dont get the braking that u would expierience when u downshift and ease out the clutch..

You don't get the breaking (loose) of the tire that you get from dumping the clutch.  :)  But although it feels like you're slowing more because it's more abupt, it's a three-stage procedure instead of a two-stage.

Rev-match:
-Downshift while rev-matching, let up on the throttle.

Don't rev-match:
-Downshift, rear tire and engine don't agree, rear tire spins engine up and likely slips.
-Let up on the throttle.


The whole point of engine braking is smoothness, anyhoo; if you want to stop quickly, brakes.

I've known guys who thought you were accelerating faster if you let the engine spin down with the clutch in before shifting, because the car jerked.  Jerky gives an illusion of speed, not the reality.

Quote from: RoadstergalJerky gives an illusion of speed, not the reality.

Exactly. :)  :thumb:

Quote from: Roadstergal

Don't rev-match:
-Downshift, rear tire and engine don't agree, rear tire spins engine up and likely slips.
-Let up on the throttle.

Yup, I do believe that this is what I've been doing, and my bf concurs....and it definitely feels (and probably looks, since my bf was very aware of it) very jerky.

I noticed it more on the GS, but I think I've been riding the SVS with kid gloves. The GS is definitely more forgiving of blunders, but gotta love FI!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:

I have a feeling that the ERC will be an educational experience for me...

So much to learn.....so little sun lately. :(    :mrgreen:

i dotn usually disagree with u RG cause i think u know more about cars and physics than i do however this time i have to.  im nto talking about dumping the clutch.   lets pretend there are no brakes.  ur saying that when u rev match, you get the same amount of engine braking? as opposed to clutch in, shift and ease out on clutch.

Quote from: weaselnozei dotn usually disagree with u RG cause i think u know more about cars and physics than i do however this time i have to.  im nto talking about dumping the clutch.   lets pretend there are no brakes.  ur saying that when u rev match, you get the same amount of engine braking? as opposed to clutch in, shift and ease out on clutch.

I would have to say:  no.  If you dump the clutch and cause your rear wheel to lose traction, you're gonna get no braking benefit (unless you consider the fact that the tire came unstuck a "benefit").  Whether you dump the clutch or smoothly engage a lower gear, the engine is going to provide the same resistance (off throttle) against the spinning tire.  Even though dumping the clutch is going to cause the rear to cinch up suddenly, it's quickly going to come back up to engine speed (or come unstuck).

I also want to point out that no one (at least that I've read in this thread) is encouraging slowly easing out the clutch...it's about smoothly getting the lower gear engaged.  In fact, getting the engine matching the gear drive speed allows a much more rapid clutch engagement (maintaining smoothness), allowing you to get the maximum controlled benefit of the engine resistance in the lower gear.

Besides...trying to "maximize" engine braking is a false economy...the brakes are much better at it, and are specifically engineered for that purpose.  The purpose of getting into a lower gear is not to slow faster, it's to be ready to accellerate quicker once the braking is done.

The ultimate point is that smoothness is going to give you control over it all.

On a motorcycle, smooooooothly let out the clutch.  Motorcycles have wet clutches just like automatic transmissions.  They're designed to be slipped.  Some kawasakis have "slipper clutches".  You can pop the clutch during a downshift.

In a car, either blip the throttle or double-clutch.  Cars have dry clutches, which generate a lot of heat and will warp the pressure plate, or set the clutch on fire in extreme cases.  (You'll have to park the car on a hill, rev to full throttle, and ease the clutch into the friction zone for a few minutes to set it alight.)

I find myself double-clutching my up and downshifts in my cars all the time.  Habit I guess.   :mrgreen:

Quote from: pandyNightRyder talks in riddles..

Yeah.. It made sense to me, and that's all that counts. :lol:

Quote from: GeePI find myself double-clutching my up and downshifts in my cars all the time.  Habit I guess.   :mrgreen:

Yeah, me too. Makes me feel like I'm better then thoes that just force it.. or something like that.

Quote from: NightRyder

Quote from: pandyNightRyder talks in riddles..

Yeah.. It made sense to me, and that's all that counts. :lol:

:lol:  :P  :lol:

Quote from: Badger

Quote from: weaselnozei dotn usually disagree with u RG cause i think u know more about cars and physics than i do however this time i have to.  im nto talking about dumping the clutch.   lets pretend there are no brakes.  ur saying that when u rev match, you get the same amount of engine braking? as opposed to clutch in, shift and ease out on clutch.

I would have to say:  no.  If you dump the clutch and cause your rear wheel to lose traction, you're gonna get no braking benefit (unless you consider the fact that the tire came unstuck a "benefit").  Whether you dump the clutch or smoothly engage a lower gear, the engine is going to provide the same resistance (off throttle) against the spinning tire.  Even though dumping the clutch is going to cause the rear to cinch up suddenly, it's quickly going to come back up to engine speed (or come unstuck).

I also want to point out that no one (at least that I've read in this thread) is encouraging slowly easing out the clutch...it's about smoothly getting the lower gear engaged.  In fact, getting the engine matching the gear drive speed allows a much more rapid clutch engagement (maintaining smoothness), allowing you to get the maximum controlled benefit of the engine resistance in the lower gear.
.

did u even read my post?  i never even mentioned dumping the clutch. all i've been saying is that easing the clutch out is better than revmatching for engine braking.

Quote from: weaselnozedid u even read my post?  i never even mentioned dumping the clutch.

I did...reading back it looks like I misread this section, where you mention dumping the clutch:

Quote from: weaselnozeim nto talking about dumping the clutch.

I must have misinterpreted "nto".  :)

Anyway...your post makes more sense with that clarification.  I'm still not sure I agree...

lol ok. my pselling aint the great. ist

I prefer to dump the clutch, lock the rear brake, and slide it around corners...  Way more fun.








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