GStwin.com GS500 Message Forum

This is likely searching for a solution to a problem that not many people have -- I'd like to be able to run a couple of electrical accessories that will pull approx. 100-125 watts total (grip heaters + electric jacket liner).  The stock electrical system in the GS doesn't have that much juice to spare.  Short of rewinding the stator is there any way of increasing the available electrical output -- say, by swapping in a more powerful unit from a different bike?  Anyone know of anything that would fit?  I have just started looking into this sort of thing, so I don't know much about what would be involved.  I apologize if I've gotten any of the terminology wrong.

I actually have a similar question. the stock motorcycle battery puts out only 12volts. The small linear solenoid I have to flip up my license plate needs 28volts. Can I use some kind of amp or copper coil to increase the voltage? If not I will just use a few 9v batteries set up in series to for the solenoid, but I only want to use the 9volts as a last resort.

Same situation here...

I installed additional lights on my forks, but if I ride with the lights on, it doesn't seem to have enough charge to start the bike again after shutoff.

I'm planning on changing the battery next spring, but I still think that I should do something about the charging/output system

a step up transformer box?

Quote from: that_guya step up transformer box?

That will work for BSD's voltage issue, won't actually increase the output from the stator though

Back in the Adding Piaa lights (http://www.gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21150) thread there was a discussion of how much power you had left over after all stock accessories were accounted for.

The general consensus is that there's really just 40-80 watts available before operating at a deficit.  The only way I see to get more power off your bike is to stop using (shut down your 55w headlight) or improve the generation process.

The other alternative is to carry more capacity -- run your temporary accessories from batteries that you recharge AFTER your ride.  Get some hard-case panniers, hook'em up in parallel and you should be okay for a reasonable ride with body heaters.  Just an idea...

Quote from: RedShift...The other alternative is to carry more capacity... hook'em up in parallel and you should be okay for a reasonable ride with body heaters.  Just an idea...

I believe adding more amperage is the most practical way to achieve this. The output of the generator is pretty much fixed unless an aftermarket stator can work with the existing flywheel/rotor. RedShift is correct. By adding a second battery in parallel ( + to +, - to -) you maintain the same voltage, but double (or close to it)the current capacity if adding an identical battery.

Now the down side, space and limited recharge. If you totally drain the battery pack, your generator may be stressed beyond normal operating parameters and fail.

I will think more about this today. 8)
Edited later...

I have thought more about this...expanding on the space issue of the downside, a side case could hold an additional battery (or two if two cases). You would have to wire the batteries and ensure that the installation was safe and reliable. Compounding the installation will the added ampacity that is available to the original wiring. The stock GS is certified for only 20A though the wiring could handle only a little more. I've seen several primary ground cables with melted/over-heated insulation. This is probably due to welded starter relay contacts or repeated starter use with insufficient time for cooling between attempted starts. With the additional current available, you start to enter what I sometimes call "The Vaporization Zone."

You've seen this before. That's the sparks that come off when jumping a battery off. Imagine an entire wire/cable turning into one huge spark.  :o

The problem of loading the Rectifier/Regulator cannot be ignored. Nothing is free in the physical world. As I mention above (and sledge below), the stock generator was not designed for more utility. Now if you really want a two wheeled generator, BMW makes some bikes that may nearly power your home  :lol:
BMWs are designed that way. The GS was not.  :(

I dont think there is a practical solution to this problem. The alternator was designed with very little spare capacity because there is generaly no need for any on a bike like this and I would guess keeping the alternator design as small and light as it needs to be to fit in the casing which again is a small as it has to be and keeping the amount of engine power required to turn it when its at full load to an absolute minimum was a bigger design issue than spare capacity at the time. The only option in my view is the same as Starwalts, use 2 batteries in series but I wouldnt like to say if the alternator could charge what it now sees as 1 battery twice the size of the original or what effect it would have on the voltage regulator......Get a better jacket and gloves, much easier solution

Sorry I meant parrallel.......... the bulbs wouldnt last long on 24v!!

Quote from: Jazzzzz....searching for a solution ....like to be able to run a couple of electrical accessories that will pull approx. 100-125 watts total (grip heaters + electric jacket liner)....

Grip heaters should not be over 15 ~ 30 watts - I have been running these on my 2001 for a couple years - they get too hot on the high setting after a short time.  So, if you are riging more than a few miles, you will be drawing about 15 watts.  I have been running a 100/80 watt headlight  bulb for a couple years also.  If the stock The stock is 60/55.  So, I am getting by just fine using about 55 watts more than the stock load so long as I take long enough rides to recharge the starting losses and keep the revs up.

You could gain a few more watts by switching out your taillights for LED bulbs - you would net about 8 or 9 watts.

Widder Electric Vests use between 33 and 48 watts (depends on size) according to http://www.premiercycleproducts.com/widdersystem2lectricvest.html

If you keep the revs up and put the bike on a battery tender you should be able to handle the load you are talking about.

Quote from: mjm... I have been running these on my 2001 for a couple years - ....So, I am getting by just fine using about 55 watts more than the stock load so long as I take long enough rides to recharge the starting losses and keep the revs up....If you keep the revs up and put the bike on a battery tender you should be able to handle the load you are talking about.

Well there you have a practical report on someone's experience. Nothing better than the real thing!

:thumb:

http://electrosport.com/electrosport_electrical_home.html

check this site out and see if it helps..

this is actually the exact stator needed for the GS500:
http://electrosport.com/shopping_stators/prod_esg010.html

Useful to know but there is nothing to suggest the pattern part can deliver any more power than the OEM original. I cant see how it can be done without increasing its physical size and there is not the space in the casing to accomodate a larger one.

Quote from: sledgeUseful to know but there is nothing to suggest the pattern part can deliver any more power than the OEM original. I cant see how it can be done without increasing its physical size and there is not the space in the casing to accomodate a larger one.

well to be technical, if you were to increase the number of windings and/or wind the stator tighter then the output could be increased.

Not really mate, its not a random number of turns in each coil. The turns,  cross sectional area of the wire and intercoil connections have all  been carefully calculated and are related to a number of electrical factors such as voltage, frequency, and current  demands and physical factors such as pole piece size, magnetic characteristics of the steel used in the pole pieces and the magnet size/strength. Altering the turns will cause a drop in performance and overheating. If it could  possibly have been made more efficient without any compromise it would have been done at the design stage by people cleverer than you and I.
An increase in power demand will also cause an increase in current flow as in this case the voltage stays the same. Thats a fact proven by Ohms Law. The winding must be able to handle this extra current and to do so it will require bigger coils, of less turns of a thicker diameter wire. To induce this higher current into the winding larger and more powerful magnets must be used on the rotor to increase the magnetic field strength around the winding. The only way to do this is by physically increasing the size of the components involved. Remember also the voltage regulator is matched to the output characteristics of the generator and any alterations to the windings or output of the alternater may probably also have a negative effect on it.
The type of alternator used on the GS is a known as a permanent-field brushless type and this design doesnt come much bigger in terms of size, the self exciting type as found on larger bikes and cars where the feild is set up inside the stator as it begins to rotate as opposed to a permanent field outside the stator like the GS are more efficient in relation to their size and weight and can deliver much more power/current but the drawback is they have brushes and sliprings which ultimately wear out. Another advantage of the GS type is that it can be made with a short core length and a large diameter stator, handy to fit on the end of the crank.

Quote from: sledgeNot really mate, its not a random number of turns in each coil. The turns,  cross sectional area of the wire and intercoil connections have all  been carefully calculated and are related to a number of electrical factors such as voltage, frequency, and current  demands and physical factors such as pole piece size, magnetic characteristics of the steel used in the pole pieces and the magnet size/strength. Altering the turns will cause a drop in performance and overheating. If it could  possibly have been made more efficient without any compromise it would have been done at the design stage by people cleverer than you and I.
An increase in power demand will also cause an increase in current flow as in this case the voltage stays the same. Thats a fact proven by Ohms Law. The winding must be able to handle this extra current and to do so it will require bigger coils, of less turns of a thicker diameter wire. To induce this higher current into the winding larger and more powerful magnets must be used on the rotor to increase the magnetic field strength around the winding. The only way to do this is by physically increasing the size of the components involved. Remember also the voltage regulator is matched to the output characteristics of the generator and any alterations to the windings or output of the alternater may probably also have a negative effect on it.
The type of alternator used on the GS is a known as a permanent-field brushless type and this design doesnt come much bigger in terms of size, the self exciting type as found on larger bikes and cars where the feild is set up inside the stator as it begins to rotate as opposed to a permanent field outside the stator like the GS are more efficient in relation to their size and weight and can deliver much more power/current but the drawback is they have brushes and sliprings which ultimately wear out. Another advantage of the GS type is that it can be made with a short core length and a large diameter stator, handy to fit on the end of the crank.

ok bud. the simple fact that you can dig out of all that you have typed out is that more windings and tighter windings on a stator will produce a higher output.  The Stators they sell also come with a different voltage regulator as well.  And im aware that it's not a random number of windings, that's why if you read the site it says they use computer control to wind the stators. No point in sitting here trying to out do each other.. :cheers:

Wading into this I offer the following:

IF the photo of the GS stator from Electrosport is the actual product, it has 18 poles (iron nodes that are used to couple the rotor magnet field into the wire).
The OEM stator has 18 poles.

The wire on those poles are slightly different...IF the photo is the actual product.

The Electrosport appears to have either more turns of wire of similar diameter OR the same number of turns with larger diameter wire.

My GS stator...(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179572/Thumbnails/1334261StatoronCover.jpg) (http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/179572/1334261StatoronCover.jpg) Click to see larger.

The Electrosport...(http://electrosport.com/Images/image.sc.esg010.jpg)

If "E-sport" has the same number of turns composed of larger wire, there is no change in the output voltage, only more amperage capacity IF demanded.
If "Esport" has more turns of the same diameter, the output voltage would be higher at the same RPM, but the wire would not allow any more current to pass than the OEM.

"E-sport" may be able to squeeze more power (Volts x Amps) as they claim, but I would be happier if they provided empirical values for their product.

Real Numbers: Stock GS load 115/120 watts (nonparking light/parking light) with all electrics on.
Caveat: This does not include the pulsed load of the ignition and battery recharging.

Is the Electrosport double this? - Not likely
Is the Electrosport 15% more? - Possibly

The simple fact is that we do not know.

Even more simple is that all parties (as is often the case) are correct in their views on this discussion. So with that, lets buy another round and try not to piss on the ignition system while it is running.  :o

We can all agree that would be a very bad idea.  :lol:  :cheers:

BTW that_guy, I'm from J'ville. My mom and step-dad are still there. You move to it or grow up there?

Starwalt: You make a very good point.

It's probably just got a slightly higher output.

Im in the Navy and I got stationed here for the next 2 years.  What part of town are you from?  I live off hodges and beach blvd.  I really like jacksonville.  It's very similar to Houston where im originally from.

Quote from: RedShift... The other alternative is to carry more capacity -- run your temporary accessories from batteries that you recharge AFTER your ride.  Get some hard-case panniers, hook'em up in parallel and you should be okay for a reasonable ride with body heaters.  Just an idea...

Perhaps you guys missed my point.

I was thinking of a solution that didn't stress the GS500's generator at all.  Like a spare tank of gas, I was thinking that you run your heaters off fully charged batteries not linked to the bike's electrical system.  You get as much heat as you have Amp/Hr capacity to deliver.  When empty, you cool down and need a charger to replenish electro-chemical potential.

Short of boosting the generation capacity of the poor GS500's stator, I don't see an easy way of getting enough watts to satisfy your cold-weather gear and the bike's power requirements.  200-240 watts is all there is on a stock bike, and over half goes to the headlight and the ignition system.  Did I miss anything?  :dunno:

Quote from: RedShift...Perhaps you guys missed my point.

That my friend is entirely possible and most likely.  :lol:

Quote from: RedShift...I was thinking of a solution that didn't stress the GS500's generator at all.  Like a spare tank of gas, I was thinking that you run your heaters off fully charged batteries not linked to the bike's electrical system.  You get as much heat as you have Amp/Hr capacity to deliver.  When empty, you cool down and need a charger to replenish electro-chemical potential.

Indeed this will work and still requires the storage and wiring we touched upon earlier. Bring it on down to my heated garage and we will fix it right up. We've got power here while tens of thousands of my fellow South Carolinians are going two days in the dark.  :o

Quote from: RedShift... 200-240 watts is all there is on a stock bike, and over half goes to the headlight and the ignition system.  Did I miss anything?  :dunno:

I'm not sure that the stock GS delivers this much officially. I can find no spec on the output power of the generator, only the voltage @ rpm. None-the-less, lighting does consume 115 - 120 watts depending on the market model and what's turned on.

The limit of the output to the wiring harness is 20A x 12V (or 13.8V) = 240W (276W). If you changed the fuse to 25A or 30 A....this would definitely enter the warranty void area.

Sorry to have your question dragged through the world of rotating magnetic fields and alternating currents, Redshift.  :oops:  But we did have fun!

that_guy: I'm from the northeast part of town off US1 near where I-295 crosses US1. Wasn't born there, but my mom moved there cause dad was with the same company you are with.  :)  I left in '78 and moved to the Carolinas, South to be specific.

You didn't happen to buy your GS off eBay did you? I track eBay bike sales and noticed one listed there several months ago.

Quote from: starwalt
You didn't happen to buy your GS off eBay did you? I track eBay bike sales and noticed one listed there several months ago.

I am buying it tomorrow from danny never of this board.

No offence taken.

True, it's a mystery to me as well as to what the GS500's power output truely is.  I've looked through my owners and Clymer manual and couldn't find it.

One of us should experiment with an Amp and Volt meter and run the bike at speed to find out what the generator really puts out.  I know a lot of us here would be interested to know.   :)

FYI - this is the output of the Electrex stator:

Quote
The ESG010 will offer 265watts for added accessories. Make sure you purchase products with low amperage draw. Thanks

                                                                   -ElectroSport Tech

Electrex USA Ltd.
ElectroSport Industries
615 S Tremont St
Oceanside, CA 92054
*ORDERS: +1 (888) 369-8359
*MAIN OFFICE: +1 (760) 433-0184
    www.electrosport.com

So they claim 265W?

For stock GS at 12V x 20A = 240W...basically 2A more available.

Quote from: ElectrexMake sure you purchase products with low amperage draw.

I find it interesting they mention this.  :roll:

Quote from: RedshiftOne of us should experiment with an Amp and Volt meter and run the bike at speed to find out what the generator really puts out.

I see this as another task after I get the 90 running.

Max load test would be:
High Beam, Turn Signal, Brake, run down battery, some RPM below 3K. Any alternate ideas for Max Load test?

Oooo...I see a laptop with my RS-232 VOM feeding it data all strapped to the back!!! A current shunt will be needed, but I've done this somewhat with the no-load scope shots of the starter motor current.
CLICKY MAKE BIGGY.