I have noticed an oil leaking from my engine and have found that it is coming from the area circled in the pictures. Is this the head gasket and is there any fix besides replacing the head gasket. From reading other posts it seems like this is a common problem. Thanks for your help!
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/hunTAVish/IMG_0007copy.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/hunTAVish/IMG_0008copy.jpg)
It doesn't seem to be serious. The only other way to 'fix' it is to wait until your next valve check (every 4000 miles) and check the torque of all your cylinder head nuts (4 inside the cover, 4 outside).
well when i ride it i end up with an oil covered right foot and pant leg, not to mention the engine and rear tire! :o
btw, the pics are with the engine just cleaned and with no oil showing (havent started it since).
That sounds serious. I think you're going to need to replace that gasket. Expecially, if you are loosing alot of oil.
Edit: you could just go ahead and take the valve cover off and torque the head nuts anyway, but a leak that serious says to me it's time to replace.
I would say you need to go ahead and replace it just to be safe. A simple torque issue of the head bolts wouldn't usually cause a leak of that scale.
I'm stating that they may have come loose. It is one of the things that the mechanics are supposed to check at first service; to make sure that they are at the proper torque/tightness.
Actually, per the service manual, the head is supposed to be torqued every 4k miles or 12 months.
There are 4 o-rings that sit on top of the cylinder. They are part of the lubrication system that supplies oil to the cams. These are possibly the location of the leak since they are under pressure. Best to replace those as well as the head gasket.
new gasket. pronto.
...on a side note...
I've never done much internal modification to a gs motor. I rebuilt one a long time ago, but didn't alter anything...followed the manual I had. Since then I got into building EX500 engines and I've learned how to build them without using a headgasket. Lap the block and head surfaces down and use copper-spray and they'll last about 10,000 miles..actually some of the ones I've built exceeded that a great deal but I saw no reason to not suggest a tear down at 10k. The biggest point to this was to up the compression. There are no interference problems or anything and it was a VERY noticeable gain in power (10~ish).
Could that be done with the GS? Seems like with an oil-cooled motor there's even less to worry about...
Gaskets are needed for making up the machining tolerances. Copper coat does basically the same thing. Not using gaskets on an air cooled motor would be a bad idea. Too much temperature change.
Quote from: dgyverGaskets are needed for making up the machining tolerances. Not using gaskets on an air cooled motor would be a bad idea. Too much temperature change.
I was kinda thinking the material differences in the block and head (fe vs al) might make it a bit more difficult on the GS.
Head and cylinder block are both aluminum.
Quote from: dgyverHead and cylinder block are both aluminum.
My mistake.
Then there really wouldn't be that much to worry about, then...just like with the EX. I'm not saying it'd be a very lasting motor, but if the head and block are made out of the same stuff then there really shouldn't a problem, unless it's mechanical.
Custom work can work to the tolerances required. Mass production cannot, at a reasonable cost. Not sure if I would trust it yet.
true. I lapped the head and block down to near-glass RA before the ex started sealing right all the time. The is probably a little different in structure, too...who knows. I'll have to get one to tinker with eventually.
you can reuse the old head gasket once completly cleaned and then copper coated, but you still need to replace the rubber coated metal Orings. a WHOLE gasket kit will only run you about 60$ and it has every seal and gasket that goes into that engine.
Quote from: dgyverThere are 4 o-rings that sit on top of the cylinder. They are part of the lubrication system that supplies oil to the cams. These are possibly the location of the leak since they are under pressure. Best to replace those as well as the head gasket.
good thing i got those too! :)
Lapping the surfaces just to eliminate the head gasket seems like alot of effort for a little more compression.
I have a head with a section cutout to show the valves. I'm going to see how much I can mill off to get a compression increase. I'm going to mill the cylinders too. Then I'll do it to a good head and see how it works.
When I assemble it I'll use the stock head gasket with coppercoat sprayed on. I'll have to degree the cams and all.
I'm going to do before and after dyno runs and compression checks.
lapping really isn't that labor intensive. just a couple of hours.
Two things are necessary for a gasketless seal:
1) FLATNESS - The surface must be flat enough that there are no gaps between the mating surfaces.
2) SURFACE FINISH - Machining marks are "tall" enough to allow water to flow through.
The best procedure is to clean up both the block and cylinder with a fly cutter in a single pass at finishing feeds and speeds. Use a rigid mill with rigid fixturing. A little bridgeport doesn't have the rigidity to swing a 14" flycutter, you'll need a production mill like a Kearney and Trecker #2. This assures flatness.
Lap by hand. After lapping, print the pieces with blue to ensure you have total contact. If not, tweak with 1500 grit sandpaper.
If done correctly it will never leak, assuming that the head nuts don't lose torque. This type of gasketless seal is commonly used in high pressure pumps.
Quote from: Bob BroussardLapping the surfaces just to eliminate the head gasket seems like alot of effort for a little more compression.
I have a head with a section cutout to show the valves. I'm going to see how much I can mill off to get a compression increase. I'm going to mill the cylinders too. Then I'll do it to a good head and see how it works.
When I assemble it I'll use the stock head gasket with coppercoat sprayed on. I'll have to degree the cams and all.
I'm going to do before and after dyno runs and compression checks.
Bob...Be careful on milling the cylinders. I have one that has been milled and with a stock thickness gasket, one of the pistons was hitting the milled head while running, even left an impression. A thicker copper gasket eliminated hitting the head but then I found the piston was hitting the spark plugs, not something I checked since I had them out while checking valve-piston clearances. Both of these issues can be resolved by a little machining to the pistons. This was when I was building the first 555 motor. I did not use the cylinder and still have it. If you want a measurement of the mill, let me know.
After looking closely at the picture it looks like Hylomar or some other sort of sealing compund is in there, you can tell by the fact it appears to have seeped out when the head has been bolted up. Difficult to tell if there is a proper gasket in there. Either way it shouldnt look like it does in the pic. Sealant wont be a reliable option in this application due to the heat and pressure generated in the head when running. I would be taking the head off, cleaning off the apparent sealing compound, checking the mating faces for flatness, fitting the correct OEM gaskets and torquing the head down in accordance with Suzukis spec`.
when pulling the cylinder head off, i also pulled the lower part of the cylinder off of its gasket. Does this mean that I need to replace that gasket too?
Yes or you can clean the gasket and spray copper coat on it.
If you pull the cylinders off to replace the base gasket, you'll need to put new rings and hone the cylinders.
You might be able to get away with just honing the cylinders and re-using the old rings.
But I would replace them.
If you just lift up the cylinder a little, you can clean the area and use coppercoat (brush on) instead of spray.
The area you need to really clean well is around the inner studs. These are exposed to dirt and grit. It gets built up at the base of the cylinders around the studs. Use a shop vac while brushing around the studs with a tooth brush or mini wire brush.
Hi there twowheeldreams,
On replacing your head gasket...
I know at least one person suggested reusing the existing gasket, but I highly disagree.
Gaskets are for one time use, especially the head gasket.
Always replace o-rings also -- they crush and need to be replaced.
From the photos you posted, someone has already replaced the head gasket before on this engine because Suzuki NEVER would have had all the sealant pouring out from the joint.
Be sure to clean everything throughly with contact cleaner, then install the new gaskets DRY -- don't put sprays or sealants on it -- and reassemble.
Be sure to properly torque the cyliner head nuts, using an X pattern as in the manual.
Always RE-TORQUE the head nuts at every valve clearance check, too. To do that, you loosen each head nut one at a time, then re-torque it, and move on to the next one. SAee the Suzuki manual for the tightening torque and tightening pattern.
Take your time and do it all right. You can do this.
Also, try to disturb the cylinder base gasket as little as possible. You don't want to have to replace rings and rehone the cylinders at this point. Again, don't spray anything in there, you can clog oil passages.
Let us know how it's going.
yours,
Todd
Racers are always working on their motors. So instead of buying gaskets in bulk $$$, We just wash the factory coating off with laquer thinner and spray with coppercoat. I've never had the slightest problem on hundreds of rebuilds. Having said that. Since most peple won't be tearing the motor apart more than once (hopefully) it would be best to just buy a new gasket. No coppercoat is needed, since it comes with a black coating from Suzuki.
If the cylinder is raised up (even a little) I would raise it as much as possible to clean the area.
Grit gets built up around the base of the inner studs (especially the font 2). Some could get between the cylinder and gasket.
That would keep it from completely seating and cause oil leakage :cry:
If you use coppercoat liquid to brush (or the spray) on the gasket area, there won't be any danger of clogging anything.
Another type of sealent might though.