I posted a thread on my new project 01' GS --http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?action=post;topic=24409.0;num_replies=7#top
I mentioned I left the (aircooled) bike running in idle for two hours.
Please see the responses I got and post your opinions!!!!!
Quote from: belome on February 27, 2006, 02:28:02 PM
Quote from: 3imo on February 27, 2006, 10:34:47 AMI left her running for two hours and she did'nt so much as hiccup.
Did you have a fan or anything on it? I'm very suprised it wouldn't overheat idling for that long with no air movement.
Quote from: 3imo on February 27, 2006, 02:59:57 PM
Actually I was counting on it. I wanted to get her all hot and bothered. any weak seals would have busted after a year of sitting and two hours idling.
she didn't even batt an eye.
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I don't believe in your logic though (no offense, of course) although this motor is air cooled I would be very upset if an engineer would design such a weak motor that it could not Idle at recommended speed(1200rpm) for an extended period of time.
My thinking is that a cold engine is bad for the engine. the oil is thick and slow moving. A warm engine running at recommended idle speed would be in heaven. working as designed.
Let me tell you, engines can take alot of abuse. In countries where motorcycles are used daily, the average lifespan of a motor is 190K miles. Not like here in the U.S. where we use them for recreation every now and then, with minimal maintenance.
The average lifespan of a motorcycle in the US is more like 4k (don't quote me) simply because we park the bikes when the weather sucks and the engines are not operating as designed. We don't mantain them properly because we don't rely on them. (of course some cherish and mantain their bikes properly)
Sure running/Idleing the motor with a "fan" a respectable opinion, its still just an opinion. I bet if we could run a test on how long a bike would last with the engine (edit- this air cooled engine) ideling the final result will be a catastrophic KATHUNK from the engine.....
when the gas runs out. :thumb:
Quote from: Blueknyt on February 28, 2006, 07:20:21 PM
while the engine wont have a catastrophic failure from idleing without moveing air, it can still overheat and hurt the head and cyl's. you can start and run and even drive an engine with a blown headgasket, doesnt mean it will run right or wont continue to distroy itself. now granted it doesnt take MUCH moveing air to keep it from going critical but it takes some, even a 2mph breeze could suffice at idle aslong as oil is in good shape and proper level.
I was at a swap meet once and there was a guy there putting on a demonstration. He had an air cooled VW engine and he started it and let it idle. He had actually drained the all oil out of it completely. I guess the experiment was to see how long a VW engine could run without air moving to cool it and with no oil. It lasted like 10 minutes and ran pretty good. It finally blew up but it took a long time.
It was pretty stupid. But it was a swap meet. And swap meets are pretty stupid.
Do i think you hurt the bike? probably not... Do i think you accomplished anything versus letting it idle for 15-20 minutes? probably not. :dunno_white: I would also think that the dented header would hurt its ability to flow exhuast properly adding to more heat build-up :dunno_white: If it were mine, i'd change the oil after that. :)
my reply to BLUEknyt--
I understand that Overheating an engine is bad. I got that. I have a bit of experience with the engineering side of AC electric motors. I know it apples and oranges, but...
Design engineers take a lot of things into consideration. I bet if one were so inclined you could find a write up of the technical engineering specs of this aircooled engine, where the engineer details the operating temperature and the best ambient running temp when running at idle.
I would be surprised if this engine was not specifically design to idle forever at a specific Ambient temperature w/o an external fan.
Very surprised. I mean like :o
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sidenote.. the engine fins release heat into the air.. heat rises....cool air replaces the hot air..
depending on the outside ambient temp and wheather you have the bike outside or in a tiny room. it should circulate sufficiently to not damage her.
my 2 cents.
Electric motors are not comparable to internal combustion engines. AC electric motors are generally designed for continuous operation with high service factors. They have very conservative cooling schemes. Short-time rated DC motors do not so much reject heat as use their thermal mass as a heat sink.
You are right that the engine of an E model will create it's own cooling draft. I'm sure that the engine is designed to have sufficient cooling area to support heat rejection at idle up to a certain temperature. However, Suzuki isn't kind enough to give us that information. What the do say on page 27 of the '96 manual is to "begin your ride promptly after starting as then engine may overheat".
If you want to know, instrument your GS for CHT. Assume a maximum allowable of 450-500 degrees F. Find out at what temperature the GS peaks.
I know "apples and oranges" my point was the engineering aspect of taking running temps into consideration.
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quoting the manual, I will have to bow down :bowdown:, but, but, but.....
alot of products have general idiot warnings.
New Gun manuals warn you not to point a loaded weapon at your self and pull the trigger "as you may harm yourself"
Manuals for clothes Irons warn you not to iron your clothes while your wearing them.
My clock radio manual says "do not submerge in water"
"begin your ride promptly after starting as then engine may overheat" - to me does not mean you cannot leave it running for extended periods of time. I think it is for the dumbass who keeps his bike in a 10' x 10' SHeetmetal garage in 120° arizona weather and leaves her idleing.
My point is that any decent engineer would take idle temps into consideration at a standard Ambient temp. designing the bike to idle forever in normal conditions. THis engine has been used for 8+ yrs. Its a good design.
But if thats what the manual says, I am sure people will think I have no point. oh well. :dunno_white:
its all good :cheers:
Quote from: GeeP on March 01, 2006, 09:06:18 AM
Electric motors are not comparable to internal combustion engines.
Quote
Quote from: GeeP on March 01, 2006, 09:06:18 AM
You are right that the engine of an E model will create it's own cooling draft. I'm sure that the engine is designed to have sufficient cooling area to support heat rejection at idle up to a certain temperature. However, Suzuki isn't kind enough to give us that information. What the do say on page 27 of the '96 manual is to "begin your ride promptly after starting as then engine may overheat".
I rode last sunday and i was having problems starting due to the cold weather i'm guessing, I had to push start it 5 times within the ride...anyways, i took the fairy back from kentucky to ohio and didn't want any problems, so i just left it running while i waited for the fairy and while i was on it...no problems, idled prolly about a 1/2 hour... :thumb:
Interesting conversation point........My concern in this issue would be the effect of heatsoak. I think its safe to assume that when ticking over the fins have enough surface area and mass to convect excess heat away from the cylinders for a reasonable amount of time dependant on ambient conditions but a certain amount of heat will always be conducted into the engine and gearbox internals which without a flow of cooling air could over a period of time cause localised heating or hotspots particularly around the cylinder head where it gets the hottest which could cause damage.
I cant accept that the engine was designed to tickover indefinately without any detrimental effect because there is no need for it to do such a thing in normal operation. So why include it and the extra costs involved in the design brief?
Quote from: sledge on March 01, 2006, 12:10:24 PM
I cant accept that the engine was designed to tickover indefinately without any detrimental effect because there is no need for it to do such a thing in normal operation. So why include it and the extra costs involved in the design brief?
Normal operation? IMO an engineer would have to take into consideration all possible work enviroments. This bike is sold all over the world.
from death valley to Nova scotia. he would look for a middle ground and design something that is suitable for:
-the weekend 50miler in toronto
- the daily commuter in new york
- the occacional trackday jockey - in socal
- the 2hr stuck idleing in rushhour traffic on a hot summer day rider in ATLanta.
the extra cost will be made up for in a reliable engine that doesn't let its owner down, causeing a great website forum for the machine called GSTWIN.com and brand loyalty.
if the bike in idle has, I imagine, 2 KW to run his own parts, considering the efficiency of that engine of about 35%, and the power discharged in the exhaust, approximateli 3 kW must be sink from the engine. Now I cannot evaluate with precision what is the balancing temperature of the engine in order to remove that heat with natural convection thru the winglets on the cylinders and engine block but I'm quite sure the engineering process considered the worst case the engine is run to calculate the surface of the heatspreader. The time the engine join balancing temperature is not too much, maybe 10 minutes in idle, so if it's correctly designed, it should not be damaged in the bike is left in idle for long times. Certainly if you do so in a +50°C room, maybe this won't be true, it's intended for normal situations.
ff4
But the question remains, regardless of where in the world you are.......what possible reason is there for letting the bike idle for 30mins+?
To answer this question you have to think like a design engineer and understand what design is about. You are tasked to design a product, that has to meet certain citeria, and operate and perform within specified parameters. Thats the definition of design and the theory behind any design project. The need to idle indefinately would not be included in the parameters as there is no requirement for it. This gets back to my earlier post asking why would you want to let it idle for 30 mins+. Ok you can easily design in the ability to improve cooling by increasing fin size and the amount of metal involved etc but this adds costs which have to be passed on. Would you pay any extra for a bike just because it was designed to idle indefinately??? I doubt it... you would do the same as me, walk away and say its not worth the money.
Of course the other risk is the real possibility of carbon deposits in the head etc getting that hot they glow and cause self-ignition.
I have seen posts here about melted front fenders from this.
Havent seen any posts about engine damage or problems though. :dunno_white:
Well, I wandered through the Owners Manual, and it was of little help:
QuoteCAUTION
Running the engine too long may cause the engine to overheat. Overheating can result in damage to internal engine components and discoloration of exhaust pipe.
Shut off your engine if you can not begin your ride promptly.
Suffice it to say that the bike was designed to have air flow across the engine. Depending on how cold it is outside or how windy, I'd say idling a GS500 for more than 20-30 minutes is pushing it. I've done it for almost that long without harmful effects, but it's been under 40°F outside, and coupled with a slight wind there is undoubtedly enough convection to provide some cooling.
As the manual implies, you take your chances if you don't ride an air-cooled bike soon after it is warmed up.
I think it would have to be designed to idle for long periods of time. IT'S A STREET BIKE!!! Every street bike, at some point in its life, is going to get stuck in stop and go traffic jams. It's part of everyday use for some daily commuters, and if the bike wasn't designed to handle it, I'm sure the gs500 wouldn't have sold so well and be as popular as it is.
As for the 2hr idle test. I think the point of the experiment was to prove that, contrary to a lot of people's beliefs, an air cooled engine can sustain idle for 1+hrs without over heating.
Quote from: budget speed demon on March 01, 2006, 07:30:34 PM
I think it would have to be designed to idle for long periods of time. IT'S A STREET BIKE!!! Every street bike, at some point in its life, is going to get stuck in stop and go traffic jams. It's part of everyday use for some daily commuters, and if the bike wasn't designed to handle it, I'm sure the gs500 wouldn't have sold so well and be as popular as it is.
As for the 2hr idle test. I think the point of the experiment was to prove that, contrary to a lot of people's beliefs, an air cooled engine can sustain idle for 1+hrs without over heating.
Do you know why you can lane split in California? The traffic was so congested that often times people with air cooled bikes would overheat because they were stuck sitting idleing in traffic.
I realize I have no reason to get into this discussion, since I'm really not a 'member' of this forum, but I do know a lot about bikes... and I can assure you, the engineers of these bikes did NOT plan on a someone idling them for 2 hours.
makes sense considering the outside temps in california never get above what..... 10,000°
read the thread, dude. no one is saying the bike will not overheat if you idle for 2 hrs in 80° weather.
THe idea is that the bike can handle idleing for extended periods of time at a certain Ambient temp.
I think it was designed that way. I am sure the designer had some equation to consider to design a motor to idle for so long at such and such ambient temp.
If for any reason than the one you described. commuters stuck in traffic. Not that the motor was designed specifically for that situation, but that things like that would have been considered.
Quote from: belome on March 02, 2006, 01:12:47 PM
but I do know a lot about bikes... and I can assure you, the engineers of these bikes did NOT plan on a someone idling them for 2 hours.
:icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: Can you now?
:kiss3:
Personaly, and I probably speak for many others, I turn the engine off if it looks like I wont be moving for a while. Stuck in stationary traffic cant be cited as a reason to design the engine to idle indefinately when its possible to turn it off and restart it so quickly. Slow moving is a different issue, you will get some cooling effect while moving but the engine speed will be up and therefore it will be generating more heat. Can anyone give a reason yet as to why you would want to let the bike tickover for long periods despite the reccomendations of Suzuki??
while im not an engineer, i did stay at a holiday inn express last night! :thumb:
all aircooled engines that can handle sitting still have some sort of Fan/impeller to move a certain amount of air for cooling. a lawn mower, aircooled diesel,older VW engine and even Avgas Aircraft engines use forced air cooling. be it Idle/or Full throttle use air is pushed across the fins. Motorcycles are designed to move, be it fast or slow they are meant to move, they arent mobile generators, they dont have PTO's to drive equipment and yes they may be able to handle idleing on the kickstand for a good amount of time, but even from an engineer Veiw point, not one of them designed a motorcycle to sit and idle for long periods of time. they may design around rushhour but even deadlocked for 2 hours you would be expected to shut the engine off. 3mph rush hour (walking speed) is enough air movement to keep from overheating if idleing. watercooled vehicles can overheat idleing even with a fan. good way to prevent it is to 1 have a HUGE amount of water/OIL (large radiator/oilcooler) or 2 vent the compartment (poping the hood letting more heat out)
all in all there are extremely few engines built/designed with convection cooling for use on a fixed platform. the mere action of compressing air without combustion creates a fair amount of heat. ive seen aircompressors overheat and cook their oil.
the twins and singles can handle idleing without moving air better then the triples and inline 4's that are aircooled. the singles and twins have more fins expossed per cyl then the triples and 4's, the middle cyl's will cook pretty quick without airmovement. i still wouldnot push my luck idleing for more then 10-15 min (depending on outside temps) with no air movement regaurdless.
this is my opinion from my expeirences, im not knocking your knowlege or skills as an engineer so please dont take it as such. i also dont want to get into a pissing match over this as i have to do that at work all to often with my boss, over the neckties in P&D who can only seem to think on paper and drafting board and not in the realworld.
Quote from: sledge on March 03, 2006, 12:51:43 AM
--- Can anyone give a reason yet as to why you would want to let the bike tickover for long periods despite the reccomendations of Suzuki??
How about a reason not to?
(http://www.bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_2229_MeltedFender.jpg)
From the following thread: Melted Front Fender
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=20846.msg196975#msg196975
I stayed at a Holiday Inn express at the weekend..........In Cardiff. I was gutted in the morning when I found out they dont do cooked breakfasts!!!!
sds