I had my '04 GS500F stolen a few days ago, but it was recovered. When I tried starting it, though, none of the electrical systems turned on (starter, lights, etc.). I got a jump, and I let it run for 20 minutes or so. When I dropped into first and tried to go, it stalled, and all the electrical systems went dead again. I got another jump, waited again, eased the clutch more carefully this time, and was able to ride it back home just fine. The headlamp, turn signals, horn all worked fine, but after parking it and shutting it off, the electrical system is dead again and it won't start up.
Do I just have a dead battery? Is it really that simple?
My tachometer is also not working and the fuel doesn't seem to be jetting cleanly in first gear.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm not sure what the thief did to this bike, but I'm hoping to have it all patched up asap.
Thanks.
A weak / dying /dead battery will cause you all kinds of grief; charge it on a motorcycle-specific battery charger (Battery Tender, or the Battery Tender JR.), and be amazed at how well everything works again.
FWIW, your tach is electrical, and you'll have poor low-end response with a drained battery. You CANNOT recharge the battery simply by riding the bike (or even just by running the engine) at high RPMs (above 5K) no matter what anyone else tells you. The alternator is designed to provide a MAINTENANCE charge to the battery when the engine spins fast enough; it is NOT designed to fully charge the battery from a low-charge / no-charge condition.
Use the Search function for "Battery Tender" and you'll find LOTS of good information:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?action=search
Dave?
Check the fluid level in the battery, you dont know what happened to the bike when it was knicked and if it was dumped on its side the battery will have drained itself.
Cal?
Am I reading you correctly?
What makes you say the alternator wont fully charge the battery from flat? We have all at some time had to push and jump start bikes due to a flat battery but after a good hour or so at full chat there has alway been enough charge held to allow the bike to start under its own power assuming of course the battery is servicable. That begs the question whats the difference between a charger and the bikes generator?
The following passage I have quoted from the Suzuki service manual.
FUNCTION OF REGULATOR.
While the engine rpm is low and the generated voltage of the AC generator is lower than the adjusted voltage of the regulator, the regulator does not function. However, the generated current charges the battery directly at this time.
Thats saying to me that the any current/voltage generated at slow speeds (that is not used for ignition or lighting) is fed back into the battery via the rectifier to charge it.
OK, sledge, I am NOT going to debate this issue with you or anyone else; I specifically mentioned that the alternator delivers a MAINTENANCE charge to the battery. Something you seem to have overlooked is that at LOW engine speeds, the electrical system is actually PARASITIC; the headlight and running lights are using more current than is being delivered to the battery by the alternator. Until the engine RPMs cross the charging threshold (above ~5K RPM), idling the engine with the lights on is DRAINING the battery. The only way to reduce the parasitic effects on the battery is to disconnect the headlight and front running lights, though I doubt that even disconnecting the lights will allow the alternator output (at idle) to recharge the battery to a serviceable condition.
I've tested this dozens of time on countless motorcycles over the years, partly because of my background in electronics, and partly because of my habit of buying old motorcycles with marginal charging systems (mostly old Honda CBs and Suzuki GS fours). I always tested the electrical systems first, in case the regulator/rectifiers were flaky (a problem the old GS fours are especially notorious for); I wanted to know the condition of the charging system as soon as possible, so I could start tracking down any replacement parts I might need.
You yourself referred to running at "full chat" in order to recharge a weak battery; of course, you DIDN'T mention that the battery has to already hold enough of a charge to START the engine in the first place, then continue to deliver enough charge to KEEP the engine running while the rider gets the motorcycle up to speed. That isn't the same thing as running the engine at idle for a prolonged period of time, which, as I've already stated, only DRAINS the battery, unless you disconnect the lights before you start the engine, which clearly isn't the most practical solution.
Under MOST circumstances, after a long enough charging period, running the engine above the charging threshold SHOULD provide enough voltage to the battery to allow the engine to start, but that does NOT mean that the battery is FULLY charged by the alternator, regardless of how you choose to interpret anything you read. OTOH, consider the effect of heat-soaking on a stationary air-cooled motorcycle engine over a prolonged period of time; recharging a weak battery from the alternator by running the engine above the charging threshold is possible (I've done it myself, under dire circumstances), but the alternator won't provide a FULL charge, and I'd rather avoid the complications caused by that method.
The alternator is designed to recharge the battery to a WORKING level so that people who accidentally drain the battery (maybe by leaving the parking light on) will not be stranded from such simple carelessness. I learned a lot of what I know about motorcycle charging systems from plenty of hands-on experience, and from extended conversations with former Yuasa (formerly Exide) battery engineers several years ago. For reasons I can no longer explain, I was writing background information for a woman who was trying to make a name for herself as a "moto-journalist"; that all changed when she got pregnant unexpectedly, though the research did me no harm, and made me something of an evangelist for keeping batteries charged and filled.
I have two GS batteries sitting on the floor next to me as I type this; the one I just disconnected from my home-made 12VDC trickle charger (which isn't well regulated) has brought the battery charge to 14.1 VDC (according to my DVM, which is a slight over-charge), while the one I removed from my GS just fifteen minutes ago is showing 12.2 VDC (slightly weak, but this Yuasa is six years old now and gets used regularly). I removed it so I can repaint my battery box tonight; while I have it inside, I'll refill it with distilled water and recharge it overnight, just to make sure it is fully charged when I reinstall it tomorrow.
I suppose I COULD "fix" my charger by installing a 12V Zener diode to regulate the output voltage more precisely; the charger delivers 19.1 VDC without a load, and 15.2 VDC under load (IOW, connected to a motorcycle battery) at about 600 milliamps, but I prefer to leave it just as it is, because it acts as a rapid-charger for my motorcycle batteries working at such a (relatively) high output.
Hepe's hoping this thread hasn't confused any newbies, but I'm not counting on that...
You two could just settle this by starting the bike and disconnecting the battery. If it still idles, then it's not draining the battery while idling, right? :)
I can verify that the tach doesn't work properly (or at all) with a low battery. I jumped my bike without the battery hooked up just to see what would happen. She started up, but idling was rough, lights were dim/flickering, tach not working right, throttle response was non-existent.
I don't think this problem needs "rocket science". I'd recommend you remove the battery, make sure the plates are covered by liquid, put it on a low-amp charger for a couple of hours (burping occassionally to clear trapped off-gases), and try to start your bike again.
If the bike doesn't want to start, but runs okay if you jump it, then you likely have a bad battery. If you replace it and there's still a problem, then turn to the bike as a cause. IMHO, replacing the battery is likely your cheapest solution.
I agree with RedShift; just service the battery as he suggested, and if you can't get the battery to hold a charge over several days, replace it.
Thankfully, annguyen demonstrated that the system WILL run without a battery, though not in a rideable / functional condition. IOW, a dead (or missing) battery will not allow you to run the engine above the charging threshold, because the full output from the alternator is being used simply to maintain ignition. Clearly, even without the battery in the circuit, the alternator is not producing enough energy to make the bike rideable. The inadequate lighting, dead (electronic) tachometer, and other symptoms he noted should be more than enough proof that the battery is the problem.
Egaeus, I don't follow your logic on this:
Quote from: Egaeus on March 06, 2006, 07:22:40 PM
You two could just settle this by starting the bike and disconnecting the battery. If it still idles, then it's not draining the battery while idling, right? :)
I get the feeling you think that just because the system idled without the battery being connnected, that the alternator would be able to recharge the battery at engine idle; I hope you can see that is flawed logic. The presence of a weak / dead battery has the same effect as NO battery; the motorcycle is unrideable either way. If you still think you can recharge the battery simply by idling the engine, leave the motorcycle parked for a week or two with the lights on to kill the battery, then jump-start it (you could hook another motorcycle battery in parallel if you didn't want to use your car for this), then let the engine idle for a few hours (make sure you have a floor or window fan set up to prevent engine overheating), and see if the motorcycle is rideable when the gas tank runs dry...
OK, that's a joke, it won't be rideable with no gas left in the tank, but you get the idea. You can idle the engine until it melts into a puddle of slag, and the battery STILL won't be charged. As I've previously stated, the alternator can recharge a weak battery to a rideable condition, but only if you can run the engine above the charging threshold for an extended period of time.
My old GS1000E was hell on batteries; if I was riding for a few hours in low-speed / low-rpm conditions, the battery would start to run down. I was actually stranded in a remote area of a national park because of that with a new girlfriend, but we found a pleasant way to pass the time while the engine cooled and the battery rested. Every forty-five minutes, we would put our clothes, gear, and helmets on, then I would try to restart the engine.
The first few times, it wouldn't even turn over, so each time that happened, I would remove the key from the ignition, and we would get distracted again; after waiting three hours, the engine turned over briefly, but wouldn't fire, which led to more waiting. After more than five hours of "waiting" (which neither of us seemed to mind), the battery had rested long enough for the voltage level to build up enough to make the engine run. We immediately jumped on "Brutus" (what can I say? She thought my motorcycle needed a name) to get the hell out of there, and I kept the engine spinning (above 6K, to exceed the charging threshold) by riding in a lower gear than normal, until I could make it back to a highway and ride normally.
That was the most fun I ever had being stranded by a weak battery... but keep in mind, the battery was weak only because of the marginal charging system. I kept the battery when I sold that brute GS, and used it for four more years in the GS650G I bought to replace it; the 650G was destroyed in a garage fire while a friend was using it. A few years later, I found out that the guy I sold the GS1000 to immediately sold it to someone else, who exported the GS to England, so I can only hope someone else is enjoying it as much as I did. That was my first liter-bike, and I remember it fondly, which is probably obvious if you've read this far...
Battery Tender Jr. - $15-20 and be done with it. Should come with the bike as part of the tool kit.
jeff
Quote from: Cal Amari on March 06, 2006, 04:55:44 PM
OK, sledge, I am NOT going to debate this issue with you or anyone else; I specifically mentioned that the alternator delivers a MAINTENANCE charge to the battery.
I'm sure back in the old days, when ships were made of wood and men were made of steel, that you are in fact correct. However, most of todays bikes have more than an ample charging system I don't recommend using the bike to charge a flat battery since it does put a great deal of stress on the charging system, but most modern bikes put out enough power that they easily could.
As for this thread, I'll bet his battery is toast. Sure he can throw it on a tender and it may 'work', but for the relative cost of a battery vs. the cost of beign stranded on the side of the road with a dead battery... I'd replace it.
Quote from: Cal Amari on March 07, 2006, 06:45:44 AM
we found a pleasant way to pass the time while the engine cooled and the battery rested.
we would get distracted again;
After more than five hours of "waiting" (which neither of us seemed to mind),
That was the most fun I ever had being stranded by a weak battery...
Hmm... I thought that was illegal... :laugh:
Quote from: Cal Amari on March 07, 2006, 06:45:44 AM
Egaeus, I don't follow your logic on this:
Quote from: Egaeus on March 06, 2006, 07:22:40 PM
You two could just settle this by starting the bike and disconnecting the battery. If it still idles, then it's not draining the battery while idling, right? :)
I get the feeling you think that just because the system idled without the battery being connnected, that the alternator would be able to recharge the battery at engine idle; I hope you can see that is flawed logic. The presence of a weak / dead battery has the same effect as NO battery; the motorcycle is unrideable either way. If you still think you can recharge the battery simply by idling the engine, leave the motorcycle parked for a week or two with the lights on to kill the battery, then jump-start it (you could hook another motorcycle battery in parallel if you didn't want to use your car for this), then let the engine idle for a few hours (make sure you have a floor or window fan set up to prevent engine overheating), and see if the motorcycle is rideable when the gas tank runs dry...
OK, that's a joke, it won't be rideable with no gas left in the tank, but you get the idea. You can idle the engine until it melts into a puddle of slag, and the battery STILL won't be charged. As I've previously stated, the alternator can recharge a weak battery to a rideable condition, but only if you can run the engine above the charging threshold for an extended period of time.
My logic was this: You said that the battery wouldn't charge at idle, and barely will charge at speed. He seemed to be saying that the bike would charge even at idle. It seems that annguyen proved you right about the idle speed at least. The charging system isn't sufficient to run the bike acceptably, which means the battery is being drained. I haven't really looked into the charging system much, so I couldn't opine one way or the other, but the test was simple enough.
Doesn't the battery complete a circuit needed to keep the bike running? I thought you could only detach the battery in cars, while running.
Good question, scratch. IMO, it is NEVER a good idea to remove a battery from a running car, truck, or motorcycle, nor is it a good idea to try to start one without a battery in the loop. I'm just glad that An didn't smoke something on his GS by running it the way he did, but of course, he had SOMETHING hooked up (maybe a car), so the car battery would have completed the circuit. Modern electronic ignitions are often designed to work only with a battery connected, and I've seen bad things happen when people disconnect batteries while an engine is running... Of course, I've also seen someone start a Jeep Cherokee by holding a sealed (maintenance-free) battery upside-down and touching the battery posts to the dead Jeep battery, so I've seen some weird ideas work under dire circumstances... I don't think a Chrysler engineer would have been happy to witness it, but the Jeep was stuck in deep snow, a family with small children was inside, and a blizzard had just begun, so getting the Jeep moving again was critical; I guess I can't argue with the results.
annguyen, I'd like to know if you disconnected the vehicle you used to start the GS engine while the GS was running, or if you left it connected the entire time. You might have dodged a bullet (or two, or maybe three), and starting the engine that way isn't something I'd recommend, but at least it seems to have worked for you with no damage resulting.
Looking back over my earlier posts here, I noticed that one thing I forgot to mention is that there is an easy way to test your charging system to see if it is working, and you don't need any tools to do it.
Point your headlight at a wall, start the engine in neutral, and rev the engine to about 7K or so. If the light shining on the wall gets brighter, the charging system is working, and yes, the test really is that simple. If you don't see a noticeable increase in brightness, you need the check the charging system, but if the light gets distinctly brighter, your charging system is kicking in as expected. Make note of the approximate RPM when this happens, for future reference. If you notice a drastic change in the RPM level at a later date, you'll know there might be a problem.
the battery should be in parallel, so it technically shouldn't be necessary for the engine to run.
Hey, I actually had a problem like this when I first got my bike (it was a rebuilt bike). The mechanic said that Suzuki electrical systems all run through an unreliable central relay that is located under the seat along the right side of the frame/subframe. This relay has a tendency to short out and I had the exact same symptoms. I thought it was a dead battery - the electrical system wouldn't work sometimes and I got the bike working with jumpstarts, kinda. Later, I found out I could get the electrical system working when I juggled the relay but eventually the relay died altogether. I think if you trace the leads from the battery, they lead to the relay. Replacing it was a 2 second job for the mechanic.
Awesome. I learn so much from this forum, even though some things are way over my head. You're talking to someone who just learned how to change his oil... *shrug*
I think the quickest solution is just to get a new battery. I'm glad the tach is most likely linked to that problem.
Thanks a lot, people! And thanks for your patience!
You could probably run the bike without the battery, but a battery would balance out the voltage put out by the generator/rectifier system.
When I put a Voltmeter across the battery and ran the bike, I noticed that the engine had to run over 2000 RPM to get over the base 12.5v the battery would put out. Below that the battery would drain rather than charge -- idling a bike causes a power deficit rather than a surplus.
I'm convinced that riding the bike at speed is really the only way to charge a battery when in the bike itself.
Quote from: nick_the_guy on March 07, 2006, 05:56:59 PMHey, I actually had a problem like this...The mechanic said that Suzuki electrical systems all run through an unreliable central relay that is located under the seat along the right side of the frame/subframe...
I am not sure what relay the mech is talking about, especially the part about "...all run through...unreliable central relay...". :dunno_white:
The GS has individual circuits that have a common wiring harness. The only thing common to ALL GS circuits is the On-Off switch, battery and engine ground (earth).
To sum up the circuits of the GS (1989 - 2002):
-> Engine Starting (Starter motor) circuit
-> Ignition (spark timing) circuit
-> Generator/Charging (RR et al) circuit
-> Lighting (headlights, brakes, turnsignals, clock cluster) circuit
The only modification to this for 2003+ would be the tach is now in the Ignition circuit as well as throttle position sensor.
These can be broken down in more detail, but I do not know of this "central relay" the mech speaks of.
If I had to pick the most unreliable circuit, it would be the Starter motor. I choose this because of the interlocks required to make it function, the battery, and the high currents involved.
The most misused circuit IMHO is the Park light circuit. How many threads and responses have been about this? John Bates even has a FAQ (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=17998.0) article on how to disable this. The lighting circuit is also the one many people get into trouble with, ala LEDs, integrated tail/turn sigs, etc.
The most misunderstood circuit is the one we are currently kicking about. One of my "to dos" is a thorough analysis of this circuit when I get my project running.
BTW I am in the carb rebuild mode. Funny things, carbs. Moving parts, tiny holes, rubber parts, adjustment screws, no visible means of proper operation. Sorta like magic.
Electricity I am comfortable with. Venturi action, hidden floating things, air mixture screws, diaphragms, etc. Now that's
voodoo technology. :o
Quote from: starwalt on March 08, 2006, 06:46:41 AM
BTW I am in the carb rebuild mode. Funny things, carbs. Moving parts, tiny holes, rubber parts, adjustment screws, no visible means of proper operation. Sorta like magic.
Electricity I am confortable with. Venturi action, hidden floating things, air mixture screws, diaphragms, etc. Now that's voodoo technology. :o
Haha yea, I'd never worked with a carburetor until I got the GS. What a strange contraption. If I ever get motived I'm going to make an animated cutaway view to better visualize how it works.
-M
Hi folks, this thread just woke me up from my winter hibernation. I couldn't resist replying.
I checked my battery voltage at different rpms and here is what I measured:
1000 rpm 12.85 v
1500 rpm 13.95 v
2000 rpm 13.75 v
3000 rpm 13.45 v
4000 rpm 13.25 v
5000 rpm 13.25 v
Battery temp. 44 deg F.
I used a recently calibrated voltmeter and double checked my measurements, so I'm reasonably sure these are good numbers.
I think any of these voltage levels will cause current to flow into the battery because they are all above the voltage of a fully charged battery (about 12.6 v).
It looks strange to see the highest charge voltage at a fast idle and then falling off with increased rpms. I don't know what to think about that. Maybe my R/R is a little out of kilter.
:cheers:
Could the battery have been needing the charge at (that time at) 1500rpms and then less as the rmps went up (,as time went by)?
Quote from: scratch on March 08, 2006, 07:49:59 PM
Could the battery have been needing the charge at (that time at) 1500rpms and then less as the rmps went up (,as time went by)?
There definitely was some change going on. My initial readings, immediately after starting, were high, (as much as 16 v.) up to 3000 rpm. By the time I got to 4000 rpm the voltage had settled in. The next set of readings, which appeared pretty stable, is what I reported.
:cheers:
Great data John. Thanks for posting.
I recall my data to be a bit different but not by much. I'm not an electrician, but I understand that Watts (Power) = Volts (Pressure) x Amps (Flow). From a previous post, I recall John offered a Suzuki reference where Peak Power was offered around 5000 RPM, so it's reasonable to imply the charging circuit will ramp up to full energy generation with engine speed.
Thinking about this, is it likely that you'd get a lower voltage if the battery is in need of charging?
Thanks for posting those figures, John. Can you provide some more information for us? For example, do you know what the battery voltage was BEFORE you started the engine? How old is the battery, and what general condition is it in? Can you provide readings for the specific gravity of each cell before and after you measured the voltages? I'm curious to know if you saw those figures with a strong battery, or one that was slightly under-charged.
If the battery was slightly undercharged before the testing began, that could account for the voltage reading jumping to 13.95V when you came off idle (1000 RPM), and the subsequent drop in voltage as the battery began to take a charge at the higher RPMs.
Either way, more to think about, and I really appreciate you taking time to post those results. My GS is now on loan to a relative (who took it to ride on his vacation), so I won't be able to test it until it is returned.
Quote from: RedShift on March 09, 2006, 03:41:51 AM
.........................
Thinking about this, is it likely that you'd get a lower voltage if the battery is in need of charging?
I would think so. I would expect it to rise as the battery charged. My battery did show a low voltage before I made the readings, even though it was on a charger. I think my charger is not doing it's job.
The battery is three months old and should be fully charged as I have been riding once/twice a week weather permitting. When not riding the battery has been on the charger.
I'll make sure the battery is fully charged, then do another voltage check.
:cheers:
That's what I thought. If I recall correctly, a charged battery should give close to 12.6v. If it's not drawing much (fully charged), given relatively low wattage from the generation circuit at idle speeds and low current draw elsewhere, the voltage should be relatively high.
I've shown less voltage than your data shows, John, but not by much. I had to get over 2000 RPM to show 13v across the poles. But the good news out of this thread is that I think I've discovered a way to imply battery health without the need of an Ampmeter! Excellent!!! :thumb:
RedShift is right about the voltage produced by a fully charged battery; each fully charged cell in a 12V battery should produce about 2.1V under ideal circumstances. Therefore, all six fully charged cells in a 12V battery should produce ~12.6V. I'm never satisfied with simply taking voltage readings on questionable batteries; I prefer to check the specific gravity of each cell to be sure all are healthy.
In extreme circumstances, I've drained flaky batteries, flushed them with distilled water to remove sediment from the bottom of the battery case, then refilled them with fresh electrolyte; I've saved a fair amount of money doing that over the years. I dump the old electrolyte into a large plastic wastebasket which contains about 4 gallons of water, and about half a box of baking soda (to help neutralize the acid). I then add more water to the wastebasket, to further dilute the electrolyte. I use litmus paper to indicate when the mix is neutralized, fill the basket nearly to the top with more water, and use the contents to rinse the patio. No visible harm to the flagstones yet...
Ok quick noobish question... Would well water suffice for refilling the battery cells? I understand distilled water to be evaporated water... What do you guys use when your batteries are low?
Thanks :)
I'd imagine "Well Water" would have too many minerals in it.
what about bottled water like aquafina or some jazz like that? demineralized, say reports.
Quote from: groff22 on April 06, 2006, 08:43:47 AM
what about bottled water like aquafina or some jazz like that? demineralized, say reports.
demineralized =/= distilled.
Go to the grocery store, buy a gallon of distilled water for about $1.08. If something's worth doing, it's worth doing right... My $.02