As some of us know, many of the old GSX-R rear wheels have 20mm I.D. bearings and the GS has 17mm I.D. bearings. Does this simply mean that the rear axle on the GS has approximately a 17mm O.D.? If so...why can't the rear of the bike be drilled out to accept a 20mm O.D. axle so that a wider GSX-R rear wheel can be swapped on?
I have been looking at the 5 or 5.5 inch rear wheels, it seems like if I switched axle's it shouldn't be impossible. I could then use the GSX-R cush drive and sprocket. I'd have to find a wheel that fits, and I'd have to find a sprocket from a bike with a 520 chain.
I tried searching...nothing came up. Anyone have any insight?
-Turd.
you just use the gs bearings in tyhe gsxr wheel use the gs cush drive and spacers shave the rear caliper hanger to about 10mm thick @ the axle look for a 4.5inch gsxr wheel 88-89 i think pm me w/ questions
We touched on a similar subject a few weeks ago.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=24346.0
I should have mentioned that I am very familiar with the common 88-89 GSX-R 750 rear wheel swap. I am looking for something wider.
Thanks Sledge, from that link you gave me it looks like I'll be able to find wheel and hub bearings that will fit the GSX-R wheel AND my 17mm axle if I look up some industrial supply type bearing companies.
The idea here is...I want to fit a wide wheel on my bike, but I want to keep my 17mm axle. Now the challenge is to find a wheel with a sprocket for a 520 chain that wont totaly destroy my chainline.
Hopefully I'll end up with a 180 or 190 rear tire on a GS500F here in a few months...
-Turd.
how do you exactly plan to put 180 or 190 on a gs? a new swing arm? an entirely new back-end? what about the chain alignment? anyway this doesn't make too much sense... :dunno_white:
The factory swingarm will do, but it'll be tight. As far as chain alightment, I'll probably buy the wheel and hub, mount it on the bike and see where I need to go from there. Many GSX-R hubs have a sprocket that is spaced out quite far (compared to the GS) to clear a large tire. If everything goes correctly, it wont be spaced out so far that the chain alignment is way off. I am, however, willing to move the motor over a few millimeters to get a proper chainline.
It seems that the chainline is the only thing holding me back. If the wheel is centered well in the swingarm, a large tire like this will fit. This has been done before you know...
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=22948.0
Take a look at this guys swingarm, it's factory. I've taken several measurements on the swingarm and a 180 is going to be tight. A 190 would be super tight, I'm not sure how this guy fit it.
I'm a mechanical engineer...this is what I do. The way I see it, by the time I sell my brand new 130 bt45 tire, my brand new rear wheel, sprocket and rotor...I will have spent $100-$150 on this project. I work in a mechanical engineering lab and I spend many hours a week in a machine shop. It might take me a while to work out the kinks, but it CAN BE DONE.
-Turd.
look at other manufacturers as well yamaha wheels are very similar might have a narrower cush drive
Quote from: onefastgs500 on March 14, 2006, 05:44:46 PM
look at other manufacturers as well yamaha wheels are very similar might have a narrower cush drive
Will do, thanks for the tip! Ideally, I'd like to use a wheel that has the "twisted" spoke design like the GS, hence why I am looking for an early 90's GSX-R wheel.
-Turd.
Of course it CAN be done, but I personally wouldn't want to add any weight to the already weak-lunged GS, and those ultra-wide tires have got to be heavier than a size closer to stock. There comes a point in time where making changes like that constitutes overkill... I don't understand why you'd want to make a slow motorcycle even slower; I'd prefer to build a 541 engine and get more performance, but that's just me. Maybe you want a way to showcase your engineering skills, maybe you're bored... all it really amounts to is parts-bin engineering (not that there's anything WRONG with that), which I've been guilty of many times over the years. Mill this, grind that, install stock or slightly modified parts from other models... I'd be more inpressed if you forged your own pistons, or cast your own wheels and swingarm.
Well, if you have the time, money, energy, and resources, more power to you. Good luck finding suitable parts... hope it turns out well...
A good post as always by Cal Amari. I've always enjoyed your input on every thread I've seen you join in on.
For me, owning a GS is not about speed. I don't race the bike, I don't participate in track-days. I'd have to admit, I wouldn't be cruising around town on a GS500 if motorcycling, to me, was all about speed. I enjoy cruising and riding around town with friends at a rather casual pace. I know a wide tire will have negative effects on handling and acceleration. Honestly, these effects will be small, especially for a guy like myself who rarely sees the other side of 6,500 RPM.
Boredom? Probably. I've always had some sort of hobby that has allowed me to modify and change things that are somewhat outside the norm. First, cars. Next, computers. Now? My GS500.
If I wanted to race the bike...maybe I would be creating my own parts that related to performance. I'm not looking to make a giant project out of this...I'm simply looking to have something to play around with that has a relatively small cost.
Thanks for the input everyone!
-Turd.
Once again, I've learned something from reading another perspective... the truth is, I'm not a speed freak, I'm more obsessed with handling. Knee-dragging is my particular obsession; I can't ever get enough of cornering (must be an inherent inner-ear imbalance)... if I had my choice, I'd live at Laguna Seca (or whatever they call it now) and spend every free moment attacking the Corkscrew from both directions. Hell, I'd drag my ears if they weren't trapped inside my helmet...
The GS is maybe one notch below where I'd prefer it to be from a power perspective, which is why I mentioned building a 541 engine. The GS doesn't handle like an FZR400, but with the right suspension changes, it really doesn't need to apologize to any other four-stroke motorcycle sold in the US. No one will ever mistake it for a purpose-built roadracer, but it suits me, especially with my favorite passenger holding on to me, living her own motorcycle fantasies, which are just as intense, though completely unrelated to mine...
Kick some ass, TF; I can't wait to see the results...
First...no, you're not going to put a 190 in the GS's swingarm. I already tried mounting up my TLS wheel...a 180, maybe, but it will be very tight. ALmost "unsafe" tight.
Your best bet is to grab up a later model GSXR 750~1000~later 600~etc wheel. They have 22mm rear axles if I'm not mistaken (I'll double check for you later)...at any rate they have a wide enough axle to accomidate a sleeve. You can have one machined out of mild steel (you want to use milder steels for shafts and sleeves) for less than $100...you'll just have to get your width right but that really shouldn't be that difficult.
Make your you get a full rear assembly...wheel, sprocket and rotor cariers, cush, rotor, and a caliper hanger and caliper too would be beneficial. It'll be much easier making the whole thing fit into a single gs piece than making 5 GSXR things fit in 5 GS pieces.
Hey Makenzie, thanks for the reply! So you slid your TLS wheel into the GS swingarm with a 180 on it? How tight are we talking? Your right, if it's 1/8" or closer to the swingarm on each side...thats just not safe. Was your obstruction the swingarm or the brake rod and chain?
-Turd.
The obstruction was, actually, everything. I only had a 190 to try and fit and the rubber was rubbing the arm pretty heavy. Everything else was in the way but alterable, the main thing was the tires width. If you really want to run with this you need to look into swingarms designed to accomidate a wider tire. I know that the earlier GSXR 750 swingarms will accomidate a 180 and fit in the GS frame with minimal modification.
If you're doing this for a total-show purpose, you might want to look into an sssa. You can buy 6.5" rims to fit almost any SSSA hub and run a 225 if you really wanted to go wide...
Turd??
This thread has really got me thinking and would like to offer you a suggestion. Last year I bought a used swingarm, I had it shot blasted and repainted it before replacing all the bearings in the linkage and swapping it for the original one. The original was rusting in the `crotch`and looked crap. If what you propose landed on my desk as a project and after thinking about the design of the swingarm I would be looking to modify the original one by grinding off the 2 arms from the pivot tube and making and rewelding on 2 new arms made from rectangular box-section spaced wide enough where it matters to accomodate the larger tyre. I think this option could be a viable proposition and seriously worth looking into. Maybe you could get a used arm from a breaker then take it to a few local Engineering shops and get their comments and views. Ok there will be other issues to consider like axlebolt and spacer length and sprocket and brake-disc alignment. The arm would have to be carefully measured and jigged, and machined to accomodate the tensioners but its by no means impossible for someone experienced and knowledgeable enough.
Sledge, as easy and simple a process as what you describe may sound, it'll be far easier to just buy a swingarm wide enough for the wheel.
QUOTE....."I'm a mechanical engineer...this is what I do. "
Turd might have a clue what to do and probably has the equipment to modify what ever he wants
^...most random post ever.
the concern to me would be the hub width on the 90-up wheels
the GS width at the axle is....8.5 ish inches
the GSXR stuff is 10 ish
that is a lot of trimming to get to fit
on the 88-89 wheel at least you can use the GS cush and save an inch on the width
ya Mack
real random
in ref to sledges post..... Maybe you could get a used arm from a breaker then take it to a few local Engineering shops and get their comments and views.
i like the mod to your TL....got rid of that dang rotory dampener
But, as he said, the 88~89 wheel really won't accomidate as wide a tire as he wants to run. Using the GS components is a moot issue in a project like this...he should be going with a completely new swingarm, and using the propper GSXR components to match it.
...oh gotcha on the post...it just seemed really out there, lol.
The Sachs suspension I went with isn't too much better...well it's actually crazy better but me and my girl managed to use all but about 25mm of it last weekend on some mild twisties. I needs me an ohlins piece... :icon_rolleyes:
i've done the 90 GSXR 750 swingarm
it fit
but sucked in the application
i had to narrow the pivot area sooooo much
then had to space out the foot pegs 3/4 inch with ugly blocks to clear the swingarm
yeah it fit
but ..... :icon_rolleyes:
i'm doing the RGV braced arm now with a really kewl 5.25 BBS wheel
I was talking about a newer swingarm...of course it's really moot which era swingarm he'd use. It'd at least look cooler, but yeah, it'd be wide as hell...but it'd fit the tire he wants.
What bbs wheel? I don't think I've seen a bbs motorcycle rim...
:icon_mrgreen:
i think it is a 10 or 12 spoke
also got a brembo brake caliper for it
i'll take a pic some day of it
just stuff sitting on the floor
also got a sweet set of PM's 5x17 rear(fzr600 stuff)
mak.... you need an extra 6.0x17 (gsxr750 99 white missing rotor) ????
crap I don't but if I'd known you had it I could have hooked youup with a buyer...lol. As it is I sold him my TL rim...I may go looking for a spare, though...I have this "itch" to put it on my EX500 to match the TL1000S forks and front wheel...
Awesome ideas everyone. I appreciate all of the input; this has turned into a cool thread. I always enjoy when the knowledgeable among us step forward and give their input.
Basically, as we all know...anything can be done. It's just a matter of how much time and money one is willing to spend. I was basically looking for a semi-simple project, and it looks like putting a 180 or 190 on a GS isn't going to be very simple. As you guys have stated, the problems seem to be two-fold. First, the tire will likely rub the swing arm. Next...the wheel and hub assembly is too wide to fit the 8.5" GS axle on most wider wheels. I'm having trouble finding measurements for early 90's GSX-R wheel/hub assemblies. I can't seem to find the width anywhere.
Makenzie, the tire you tried was a 190? It was mounted on a rim, right? I know...silly question. Does anyone know the average width of a 180 or 190 tire with an aspect ratio of 55? I know it will be close...but I still feel like a 180 should fit. The link I posted earlier on in this thread shows the guy who fit a 190...but he's never told anyone how well it works. His chain alignment could be terrible, his rear brake may drag badly and he could have ground down the swing arm (!!!), we don't really know.
I'm not really looking to make a huge project out of this, though finding and swapping a swing arm would be fun. More than likely...I'll end up doing the 88-89 rear wheel swap and sticking with 160 rear rubber, while using the GS hub. As I stated before, I am a Mechanical Engineer and my work has a full machine shop. I have plenty of access to software, tools and brain power to engineer something to work...but I definitely don't feel like putting that much effort into the project just so I can say..."check out that bitchin' tire!"
Thanks again guys,
-Turd.
faster easier swap is the 98-04? kat 600 4.5x17 rim.....the brgs are 17mm id....direct swap with some spacer adjustment
and a 170 will fit a 4.5
it the tire rubs the chain....run it for a few minutes....it will fix itself
or trim it with a razor blade
have to do the razor mod on a gsxr750 rim on a FZ600 swing arm
A 180 tire at the sidewalls is 180mm wide (or roughly 7"). A 190 is 190mm wide at the sidewalls (or roughly 7.5"). The first number is the actual width in mm in most cases. The aspect ratio is the height's percentage of the tires width.
...if I understand how tires work correctly, I could be wrong.
im doing something similar,TF. im just going to get my swingarm extended and widened. Why you ask? Checking title and registration.... :laugh:
Quote from: makenzie71 on March 15, 2006, 08:08:22 PM
A 180 tire at the sidewalls is 180mm wide (or roughly 7"). A 190 is 190mm wide at the sidewalls (or roughly 7.5"). The first number is the actual width in mm in most cases. The aspect ratio is the height's percentage of the tires width.
...if I understand how tires work correctly, I could be wrong.
Yeah, you are right regarding the "section width" rating of a tire; i.e. 180 does mean it is 180mm wide. All tires have a slightly different ACTUAL width though, usually with a standard deviation of 5mm. The actual width is also affected by the width of the wheel, as a big tire can get pinched on a small rim--thus making the width of the tire smaller..
-Turd.
I just happen to have a 180 pirelli diablo in the other room. New tire that hasn't been mounted and it's 7 3/8" wide.
EDIT: changed question...
Will the GS hub fit the katana wheel?
-Turd.
ask Dgyver....he has it sitting in shed
i do believe it does
but if not the kat one will work....you are a M.E.
a lathe and mill are your friends.....wish i had access to a mill :cry:
Yeah, according to bikebandit, the hub shock absorbers are the same as the GS ones, so I'd imagine the only difference in the hubs is the sprocket alignment.
Give me 2 weeks and I'll have the Katana wheel on the bike, I'll report back and write up a little "how-to". I'm going to fit a 170/60, close enough to my goal of 180 or 190.
-Turd.
I'm still unsure why not fit a whole rear off a gixxer? I really think the bike would look sick with a braced swingarm off a later GSXR and a 180 in the rear.
mak
measure a late GSXR swingarm at the pivot
then measure a GS (same place)
then figure out how you can cut that much metal off and still have a swingarm left
the frame at the pivot of a I-4 is....10-11 inches
GS is 8-9
the rear arms of the swingarm are welded at a point wider than what ya need to fit in a GS frame
part of the reason i got rid of the VFR SSSA.....had to cut way tooo much off
another thing to consider when swapping for a significantly wider wheel (like a full gsxr rear swap) is the chain alignment will be way off between the rear sprocket and the front sprocket. Enough I'd guess to affect wear rates at the very least.
interesting project, and I for one can appreciate a good project for the sake of just doing it (see my site). Definitely document the process (pictures and write up) of whatever you decide to do, whether you get it to work or not so we can post it in FAQ forum.
Werase...the VFR swinger is actually a poor choice for just about anything. I use the NT swingarm for almost everything.
Also, most modern Zooks run 244mm at the pivot (about 9.6"). The bandit 400 swingarm I thought was a direct bolt-in and it's 230mm. Doesn't seem like too much to trim off. At any rate, trimming the swingarm is NOT the right way to go about it. The propper way is to cut the stock swingarm lugs off the subject bike and mount plates for the new swingarm. I'll post pics of what I'm talking about in the next day or so...I have an old CB I did this to.
Pablo...I think that chain alignment wouldn't be too dramatic an issue. He's looking at running the chain about 3/4" off center...that's about 3~4*. Steel sprockets and a quality chain will hold up decently. I ran an RK on my CB ratbike and aluminum sprockets with a 7* pitch and it chewed my sprockets up in about 2400 miles...almost rounded them. I put steel sprockets under the same chain and the bike's got 11k on that setup.
Well, I hope werase...I hope you were right about the Katana wheel...I've got a 98-03 wheel and rotor on the way to my house. It looks like it will fit...I'll be out of town all next week, so I'll report back in a few weeks on how the swap is going, complete with pictures.
Anyone want to buy a factory GS wheel, rotor or tire? 1000 babied miles, not a flaw on anything.
-Turd.
Quote from: Turd Ferguson on March 16, 2006, 02:43:56 PM
EDIT: changed question...
Will the GS hub fit the katana wheel?
-Turd.
Yes. Direct fit. No mods required to fit the 98+ Kat 4.5" wheel in the GS. Just have to use the GS cush drive. Werase saw the one I have.
Quote from: werase643 on March 16, 2006, 07:19:43 PM
mak
measure a late GSXR swingarm at the pivot
then measure a GS (same place)
then figure out how you can cut that much metal off and still have a swingarm left
the frame at the pivot of a I-4 is....10-11 inches
GS is 8-9
the rear arms of the swingarm are welded at a point wider than what ya need to fit in a GS frame
part of the reason i got rid of the VFR SSSA.....had to cut way tooo much off
You must have forgot about seeing the 03-05 gix swing arms I have. They only measure about 4-5mm wider than the GS. I would have to measure again to confirm the exact dimensions.
Man, this is a great thread... I intend to do some swingarm / rear wheel surgery sometime later this year (got to find a suitable GS rat bike first), and this information can save me a LOT of time and aggravation down the road...
I'd really like to know which OEM Suzuki swingarms are suitable as replacements, so we can document it for the FAQ. A basic "How-To" showing the types of modification needed to make a different swingarm fit would be even better, for those not familiar with the process.
The Katana 600 & 750 swingarms look similar to the GS arm, but I'm curious to know if they are a simple swap, or if installing one would require a lot of machine work.
Ok, hoping for input from starwalt, dgyver, Bob B., or anyone else who might have first-hand knowledge...
servus,
you can take a swingarm from the bandit 600 komplet without any problems! see here:
(http://www.gs500e.co.uk/albums/Members-Bikes-Gallery-1/Umbau023.sized.jpg)
swingarm, shock, brake and wheel 4,5x17 with 160/60-17.
you also can take the swingarm from the bandit 1200 komplet! see here:
(http://www.gs500e.co.uk/albums/Snapshots/knopf2.sized.jpg)
swingarm, brake, shock from bandit 600 and wheel 6,25x17 with 200/50-17. but you need a offset-sprocket in the front.
or you take a long swingarm in the gs! :icon_mrgreen: see here:
(http://www.gs500e.co.uk/albums/Snapshots/schwinge0405.sized.jpg)
servus,
You do amazing work, Jim; I've seen photos of your efforts on GSResources.com and other websites many times over the last several years. I haven't been to the Netherlands in more than twenty years, but it is a very photogenic country. I met a beautiful Dutch girl while I was there; I was crazy about her, but after I returned to the US, we lost contact. Last I heard of her, she'd married a lawyer...
First, I was :o, then :mad:, then I :cry:; she must be :cookoo:.
I really appreciate the information about those alternative choices. I don't want a longer swingarm, I just want a bolt-in. I don't want anything exotic either; nothing fancy at all. I'd just like to know what-fits-what, so now I'll keep my eyes peeled for Bandit and Katana 600 swingarms, then try to measure them to see how close the dimensions are to the GS swingarm. It only makes sense that Suzuki would use the same swingarm on other models to keep costs down, so I imagine that sooner or later I'll be doing a Kat or Bandit swingarm transplant...
Thanks again for the information.
Greetz,
Cal
Quote from: Cal Amari on March 18, 2006, 03:15:45 PM
I just want a bolt-in. I don't want anything exotic either; nothing fancy at all. I'd just like to know what-fits-what,
servus,
i´ve never done such a stupid nonsens with a 4,5er rim in the gs swingarm! :icon_twisted:
its easier to change komplet! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
servus,
OK, Jim, I don't think you understood me; I DON'T want to use the stock GS swingarm for this. I want to know which OEM Suzuki swingarms will fit into the GS frame with little or no modification. Once I know that, I'll get a complete swingarm and wheel to install.
My most recent research has shown me that the early Katana 600 swingarm ('88 - '96) should fit without much problem. The early Katana 750 ('89 - '96) swingarm is identical to the early Kat 600 swingarm, with the addition of an inner brace, so either should work.
Swingarms I've rejected:
Bandit 400 (all years)
Bandit 600 (all years)
RF600R (all years)
RF900R (all years)
Katana 1100 (all years)
Swingarms I haven't researched yet:
Anything from a GSX-R; those are next on my list to examine... I just have to find the time to do it...
Hope this clears up any confusion...
Greetz,
Cal