I'm taking my bike apart. One of the screws on the exhaust WILL NOT budge. I've applied enough torque to the allen wrench to nearly topple the bike. I've sprayed it with lube, I don't know what else to do. Any ideas would be helpful. :dunno_white: :dunno_white: :dunno_white:
use a pipe for more leverage.
4f
hehe paranoid sounds about accurate :icon_lol:
[4
On one bike last year, the bolt head stripped and broke off, the stub left wasn't comming out with welding on a nut after threading it on 3 threads, and it wasn't comming off no way, no how. I eventually drilled it out and the damaged threads were replaced with helicoils. The drills etc had to have the entire front end off and the bike had to be hung from the ceiling and strapped to the floor to keep it from moving. Not fun. But it came out, eventually ... O0
Cool.
Srinath.
I just recently painted my exhaust (pics in a few days...am lazy :laugh:)....But my header bolts came out fairly easily. Mind you, I had to use a standard size allen wrench because of the tight fit I couldn't get my sooper-dooper-multi-allen-wrench-flippy-thing at the right angle to get at them.
I think I messed up though when putting them back in. I have some "White Lithium Grease"....and I figured "long lasting lubrication...works for me!"....
So I sprayed a little on each bolt. They went in really easily, but, once I started the bike, it began to smoke and smoke and smell awful.
Morals of the story: Make sure to buy stuff that can hold up to heat; and don't breath fumes! :nono:
Quote from: skoebl on March 23, 2006, 09:24:58 PMI think I messed up though when putting them back in. I have some "White Lithium Grease"....and I figured "long lasting lubrication...works for me!"....
So I sprayed a little on each bolt. They went in really easily, but, once I started the bike, it began to smoke and smoke and smell awful.
Morals of the story: Make sure to buy stuff that can hold up to heat; and don't breath fumes! :nono:
Lithium grease wont do in that spot. Actually, the burning grease may make matters worse next time. You need solid lubricants in those spots; I usually use copper paste. I'm reluctant to use MoS2 in threads, as it can lead to bolts rattling loose more easily. Copper doesn't lubricate quite as well but still should make for a good separation of the surfaces.
Having heard one too many story about torn off header bolts I have replaced the standard allen bolts with stainless studs and cap nuts. We'll see how it goes when I have to take it down next time. (Which is, like, yesterday; my headers look awful.)
If the engine is hot the bolts should come out easier because the engine will expand more than the bolts. Just go for a ride to heat the engine and then try removing the bolts.
I've had very good luck with this product:
(http://www.midwayautosupply.com/images/seafoam/dc14_3X.jpg)
it foams up and penetrates into the union. I've heard PB Blaster is good too, but I've never tried it.
-M
Wow this is fantastic. So I went out and bought a hex set for my socket wrench, went away at the bolt, guess what. It freaking snapped in half. So half is in the cylinder head the other half fell off. I guess I'll be drilling but I know it's in my engine and metal scraps are probably gonna get in there plus I don't know jack about taking the engine apart (I have a manual though).
So please any help would REALLY be appreciated before I try this. Anyone tips/suggestions would be great, what to do, what not to do. Thanks.
Ask a mechanic how much they will charge to remove it?
Is there enough sticking out of the head to thread a nut onto? If so, you could weld it on and try using a wrench to power the bolt out. Soak the area with a good penetrating oil (like PB Blaster or the Seafoam product in the pic above) and let it soak overnight before trying this. If this doesn't look like it will work you could pull the head, take it to a machine shop, and have them drill out the bolt and re-tap or helicoil the hole.
Sorry to hear it went sour, let us know how it works out
-M
Quote from: tussey on March 24, 2006, 11:04:46 AM
Wow this is fantastic. So I went out and bought a hex set for my socket wrench, went away at the bolt, guess what. It freaking snapped in half. So half is in the cylinder head the other half fell off. I guess I'll be drilling but I know it's in my engine and metal scraps are probably gonna get in there plus I don't know jack about taking the engine apart (I have a manual though).
So please any help would REALLY be appreciated before I try this. Anyone tips/suggestions would be great, what to do, what not to do. Thanks.
Same thing happened to mine. It happened to 2 of the 4 header bolts, one left 3 threads or so exposed, the other left 1 or so threads ... I took the front end off and drilled it with the sears issue extractors. Looon loooong time later, they came out. Not easy ... BTW stuff a rag into the exhaust port to keep scrap out ... and for gods sake ... drill the center ...
Cool.
Srinath.
4d
So I'm going to drill it tomorrow. Here is my plan, let me know what you think.
0. Stuff rag behind bolt inside gasket, prevent scraps from dropping inside.
1. Spray bolt with lube
2. Drill center of bolt with tiny bit, making tiny hole all the way through center of bolt
3. Repeat Step 2 with each time with larger bit eventually hollowing out the bolt to a thin frail metal circle.
4. Using tools dig out hollowed shell of bolt breaking it
5. Remove sraps of broken bolt from head.
[3
Quote from: Wrecent_Wryder on March 25, 2006, 08:05:23 PM
I might risk a small shallow hole in the bolt to use an EZ-out if it's not too deep. Maybe others have better suggestions.
How long is the section that broke off? Maybe there's enough thread to hold if you just cut the new bolt to that length, and leave the piece of the old one in there?
What's an EZ-out? Also the bolt broke flush with the head so that's a no go :(
OK You need to add these 2-3 steps.
Strap bike to ceiling, and floor, remove front end ... the whole kit and kaboodle ...
If you want ... I will buy it and you buy that blaarg's ... Mine was broken 2-3 threads front of the head and I still had to drill it out. Make sure you keep it away from the elements when the pipe is out, it will give you valve stem rust ... whihc will in turn gall and score the guides when you start it after fixing it.
Cool.
Srinath.
Unless you are very very confident about doing this I would leave it to a pro, its a very difficult thing to do succesfully without experience and suitable tools, and you run the real risk of scrapping the head. Idealy the broken stud needs to be drilled out with a Drill-press with the head clamped rock steady in a vice perfectly central to the axis of the drill. Like Wrecent says the danger with doing it by hand is the drill bit going off center and letting it wander from the hard metal of the bolt into the softer metal of the head and damaging the original threads. Assuming you can drill through the bolt you will also have to clean the threaded hole out afterwards with a suitable sized Tap as you will still have metal in the threads. Another option would be spark-errosion but I am not sure if it can be applied to this particular job. The people to talk to about getting it done would be a local firm of Engine-Reconditioners, they usually provide the service.
e3
You have three options:
Option #1 is to drill as you describe with a hand drill. Yes, it can work, but only if you're feeling very lucky and have plenty of practice doing it. Even then it's likely you'll have to heli-coil.
Option #2 is to attempt and extraction. If I were to try this I would use one of these:
(http://www.victornet.com/productimages/505.jpg)
Order info (http://www.victornet.com/cgi-bin/victor/productlist.html)
They're supposedly self-centering, and look like they have half a chance of working. I have a set here, but I've never had the need to try them. As a mechanic I've used the spiral extractors many times. The small sizes tend to break very easily. Plus, having a taper, they tend to introduce a clamping force which can make it harder to remove the fastener.
If you decide to use a traditional extractor I suggest a type designed like this:
(http://static.zoovy.com/img/usfreight/W180-H180-Bffffff/E/easyout6.jpg)
I have a set similar to those. Instead of twisting the extractor in, you beat it in with a hammer as you turn. These have completely replaced my spiral - type extractors. Irwin tool company makes a set like this which you might find in a local hardware store.
Now, option #3 is to take it to a machine shop and let them have at it. What they're going to do is drill it out, except they will have a milling machine or jig bore at their disposal along with very rigid drills. The downside is to do this you'll have to remove part of your engine. The upside is that they will get it out.
One word of caution: Don't break off an extractor in your seized bolt. They're made out of the same steel as drill bits and endmills. They don't machine very well. :laugh:
Geep.
Interesting comments, I agree with them all and have to say I have not seen the Self- Centering type, maybe they have not made it across the pond yet :dunno_white:
We tend to avoid extractors if machining is a viable option, the broken remenent will still be lodged just as tight as before and you are just as likely to shear the extractor as a result and that really complicates things. We have had some nasty experiences with broken extractors in the past. If, depending on size and practicality we can get the component part jigged in a suitable machine we will tool the broken part out, if not we bring in the spark errosion contractors... this a black art to me so I cant really comment, plus the contractors wont tell you anything when you do ask them questions. Another thing to consider and I am sure you will agree with me is that extractors, when they grip the remenent internaly in the pilot hole can cause it to swell on the o/d, which in effect makes it even tighter.
To summerise I think sometimes eagerness and determination to overcome what seems like a simple problem leads the individual concerned to forget about the possible outcome and resulting rectification costs if the attempt goes pear-shaped. We have all agreed that this is a risky and a far from simple task and personaly, and knowing what I do I wouldnt attempt to do it by hand in my own garage, I would pay someone who has the experience and equipment to do it. At least if it did go pear-shaped I would refuse to pay. :laugh:
Quote from: sledge on March 26, 2006, 12:25:57 PM
I would pay someone who has the experience and equipment to do it. At least if it did go pear-shaped I would refuse to pay. :laugh:
Alright, I've decided to let a pro do it. But what kind of professional should I take it to? I mean what would it be under in the phone book? Any ideas?
The resident pro will pay you to take it off your hands, leaving you free to snag that other one that is by you. You can give me that things carbs while I pick yours up, so the resident pro will get its carbs squared up as well. But If I were to charge someone to do it, It would be $200 minimum and 4 week turn around time minimum. And no I wont do it unless you drop it at my house and pick it back when done. In all honesty its one of the hardest things I have done, and I have slapped a 04 fairing set on an 89, and no I didnt use any of the tools he posted ... I used drills and leftie drills after the welding nut aspect failed.
BTW mecahnics will ask for 1/2 if not more up front just to not have to deal with you not paying up ... routine stuff they will do wihtout it, but this ... nope.
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: seshadri_srinath on March 26, 2006, 03:38:44 PM
The resident pro will pay you to take it off your hands, leaving you free to snag that other one that is by you. You can give me that things carbs while I pick yours up, so the resident pro will get its carbs squared up as well. But If I were to charge someone to do it, It would be $200 minimum and 4 week turn around time minimum. And no I wont do it unless you drop it at my house and pick it back when done. In all honesty its one of the hardest things I have done, and I have slapped a 04 fairing set on an 89, and no I didnt use any of the tools he posted ... I used drills and leftie drills after the welding nut aspect failed.
BTW mecahnics will ask for 1/2 if not more up front just to not have to deal with you not paying up ... routine stuff they will do wihtout it, but this ... nope.
Cool.
Srinath.
Driving my bike to NC and leaving it there over the course of a month isn't too appealing. I think I"ll shop around town first. Sorry
QuoteWe tend to avoid extractors if machining is a viable option, the broken remenent will still be lodged just as tight as before and you are just as likely to shear the extractor as a result and that really complicates things.
Yep! I much prefer machining if it's an available alternative. Plunge milling through tool steel screw extractors wastes lots of time. If extraction is the only available way I like to "condition" the fastener however I can. Heating the area around the fastner, dry ice on the fastener, lubrication, and impact are all available options. As we know, the extractor isn't designed to break the fastener loose.
QuoteAnother thing to consider and I am sure you will agree with me is that extractors, when they grip the remenent internaly in the pilot hole can cause it to swell on the o/d, which in effect makes it even tighter.
Agreed. That's why I dislike the spiral-type extractors. A significant portion of the driving torque is converted into a wedging force inside the pilot hole. It's still worth a try, but you have to know when to stop and drill it out.
Look for a local machine shop and ask them if they will do it. Make sure to get *in writing* that they will cover the replacement cost of your head if they scrap it. Some machine shops have a "Well, we tried." policy. Let us know how it goes. :)
Quote from: tussey on March 26, 2006, 04:16:11 PM
Quote from: seshadri_srinath on March 26, 2006, 03:38:44 PM
<snip>
Driving my bike to NC and leaving it there over the course of a month isn't too appealing. I think I"ll shop around town first. Sorry
I wasn't suggesting you bring it here, I was suggesting you buy Blaargs bike and sell me yours. If you get his and its not running right, yank its carbs off and give it to me while I am there and I'll clean and jet it. Heck if your carbs are good, swap them with his. I wont care.
Cool.
Srinath.
Oh. Where is Blaarg's bike? Couldn't find it in the For Sale section and search didn't turn up anything either.
Call an exhaust/muffler shop first; if they can't help you they can probably recommend a good machine shop. Keep in mind that good condition used heads regularly go for <$100 on e-bay. If it's going to cost you more than that to get the bolt out then you might as well go ahead and replace the whole thing.
-M
Quote from: tussey on March 26, 2006, 09:28:52 PM
Oh. Where is Blaarg's bike? Couldn't find it in the For Sale section and search didn't turn up anything either.
Man - you replied to it too ... a few days ago. Here it is though.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=24968.0
Cool.
Srinath.
Anybody got advice on the "heat the block, cool the bolt" method? Any success? I've got a similar problem - pics are below. Vise grips, EZ-out, extractor... to no avail. The slit in the bolt/block was the previous owner, not me.
Also, is there any real harm in running with 1 bolt per flange? The previous owner evidently did and I've been doing it for a while now with no noticeable bad effects.
(http://www.stanford.edu/~sanjayd/bolt2.jpg)
(http://www.stanford.edu/~sanjayd/bolt1.jpg)
(http://www.stanford.edu/~sanjayd/bolt3.jpg)
That is a bad one, best thing to do with that is take it to a specialist engineering shop or engine-reconditioners and get their advice. The only real chance you stand of getting it out and saving the head is to have the broken remenant machined out and the hole helicoiled afterwards.
Sanjay,
I have the exact same bolt that snapped on me. I center punched it, drilled a hole throught the bolt with a cobalt bit and soaked it in PB for 2 weeks before trying to extract it.
When I turned the easy out 1/4 turn it "felt" like something was wrong. Sure enough, that bolt is in so tight that the extractor twisted on me!!! So now I'm searching for a bike shop that will drill it out and heli coil it for me.
Good Luck
Chris
I had a jetski i broke the bolt of in the exhaust on . I pulled it apart took to car quest the drill and helicoiled for 45$.
thread res for berto:
Hey here is what ended up happening. My header bolt snapped off flush with the engine. I ended up paying several hundred dollars to have a motorcycle shop remove it (it was a ripoff, don't even go there with me).
Once removed I bought all new header bolts from bikebandit.com and I covered then with anti seize which is a type of copper paste. Use it liberally then wipe the excess once you're screwed in. This will prevent future seizes.
If I could do it all over again I would do it differently. I know much more now. I would take off the front tire, spray the area with lube or whatever let it saturate then drill a pilot hole and use and EZ out. I didn't know what EZ out was then but I do now.
Anyways hope that helps you.
(http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/graphics/09-25100.jpg)
Thanks for the follow up.
I was lucky because mine came out easily but I knew it was very possible for a bolt to have snapped and put me in this same nasty situation. It's always nice to have information on "what to do if..."
Just wanted to also recommend the fluted extractors GeeP posted about:
(http://static.zoovy.com/img/usfreight/W180-H180-Bffffff/E/easyout6.jpg)
IMO, fluted extractors are FAR superior to the spiral extractor design; I first used a set about fifteen years ago, and I haven't used a spiral extractor since then. They won't work in ALL situations; sometimes, you simply have to resort to HEAVY artillery, but they've saved my bacon enough times to keep a set in my toolbox at all times. In fact, I hate to loan them to anyone, because as soon as I do, someone else will ask me if I can remove a broken bolt from something...
Regarding the pics i posted above, the bolts never came out. I sold the bike to the new owner with 1 working bolt per header pipe (and told him about it). Not sure if he ever got them removed or not, but I tried EVERYTHING short of getting it drilled out by a shop. Sometimes it's that bad.
Like Tussey, I always use anti-seize when I remove/replace the header bolts on the new bike. No problems since.
Also, I second the fluted extractor recommendation over the spiral ones. I have both and the fluted ones work much more reliably.