I did a few searches and couldnt find the answer to this, though i am sure someone must have asked before . Can I remove the Cylinder head with the engine in the bike? The Clymer manual says the cylinder head cover can be removed with the engine in the bike, but is there enough clearance to get the actual head off? It looks like it would be tight. If not, how much of a PITA is it to get the engine out of the frame?
Cheers
Nope. Dispite what the Clymers manual says, its impossible to get the head off in the frame unless you did something silly like remove the cylinder studs first.
Removing the engine is the easy part. Getting it back in is a serious pain but it gets easier once you learn to do it it. The first time or two will leave you cursing it and throwing tools. It has to go in diagonally and tilted back and then when lined up front to back, insert the lower rear engine bolt. Then rotate it down onto the front mounting points. It helps to remove the left side (generator) engine cover.
Quote from: JamesG on March 25, 2006, 12:13:00 PM
Nope. Dispite what the Clymers manual says, its impossible to get the head off in the frame unless you did something silly like remove the cylinder studs first.
Removing the engine is the easy part. Getting it back in is a serious pain but it gets easier once you learn to do it it. The first time or two will leave you cursing it and throwing tools. It has to go in diagonally and tilted back and then when lined up front to back, insert the lower rear engine bolt. Then rotate it down onto the front mounting points. It helps to remove the left side (generator) engine cover.
James,
Hate to dissagree with you, but I have taken the cyclinder head off of the engine while the motor was in the frame. Not even a problem.
As to taking the engine out (I have done this 5 times now) I have found that by putting a automotive jack (the kind with the four wheels) under the motor, I can rotate the motor 90 degrees once I clear the motor mount tabs on the frame, drop it down and pull it out. It goes in the same way, only in reverse order. The motor is almost level the entire time. I have got it down to a couple of minutes out, and under 5 minutes back in.(After all the ancilliary stuff is removed.)
Having said all that, the first time I did it, I was cussing up a storm. It is kind of like a puzzle, easy once you solve it.
Did a motor at a track day and only lost one session, just over 90 minutes start to finish.
thanks for the help guys. Just to report back - we managed to get the head off by taking out the front engine bolts and one at the top rear an the loosening the bottom rear so the engine could pivot a little. It only moved about 1/4" before hitting the frame, but that was just enough clearance to get the head off with the engine still in the frame. We used a trolley jack under the engine to support it while pivoting it. Indeed I managed to bend a valve pretty good last time i was at the track. Stupid GP shift pattern, gumble grumble...
Ah, I'd never thought of "half-removing" the engine!
But then, usually if I need to take the head off, I'm completely striping down the motor.
I'll file that away for if I ever need to do an emergency top end job though!
:cheers:
I pulled the head on my 02 GS500 without removing the engine, lowering the engine, or removing the cylinder studs. It will come off up between the frame members with a little careful working it out. Will shear off the electrical wire harness clamp on the right inner frame member if not moved out of the way.
Engine components removable with engine in place:
Exhaust pipes
Oil filter
Sump
Carbs
Throttle and choke cables
Cam chain tensioner
Cylinder head cover
Camshafts
Cylinder head
Cylinders
Pistons
Starter motor
I cant verify any of this personaly but it is quoted in the Suzuki service manual (section 3-3)
A few years ago this came up and someone said it wasn't possible to get the head off in the frame, and I've accepted that til now.
Learn something new every day...
yes, the head will come off with the engine in the frame. I just did it a few days ago. It's a tight fit, and having an assistant helps a lot. The clip-in connector holding the wiring to the frame needs to be removed, and the spark plug wires need to be moved well out of the way.
I have removed my head 3x... never lowered anything... never took the motor out... it just takes some shaking, wiggling, cable moving and patience... not hard though.... matter of fact... I'd call it easy
Quote from: KYGS500E on March 25, 2006, 06:58:11 PM
I have removed my head 3x... never lowered anything... never took the motor out... it just takes some shaking, wiggling, cable moving and patience... not hard though.... matter of fact... I'd call it easy
see..........I am not crazy. :icon_mrgreen:
When removing the head, where are the valves in relation to this?
Will the valves be moved at all when you remove the head or are they unaffected?
I'm about to get in and try to rebuild mine (first time working on anything). The haynes manual doesnt specify.
Thanks
The head comes out with the valves attached to it.
Quote from: Mandres on March 25, 2006, 02:26:18 PM
yes, the head will come off with the engine in the frame. I just did it a few days ago. It's a tight fit, and having an assistant helps a lot. The clip-in connector holding the wiring to the frame needs to be removed, and the spark plug wires need to be moved well out of the way.
Oh good lord now what's wrong?
Hi facepants et al,
I have to say, anyone who is thinking about removing the cylinder head but isn't aware that the valves are part of the head is probably jumping in WAY over their own head (as in experience and aptitude, not as in cylinder head).
I know we all have to learn somewhere, but are you sure you are ready for this step?
Removing the cylinder head is very doable while the engine is in the fram, but it takes a special technique to try to remove the head without disturbing the cylinders and the cylinder base gasket. If you break that gasket seal, you should remove the cylinders and replace the base gasket, which then means you should hone the cylinders and replace the piston rings.
If all of this scares you, it should. You need to have a good repair manual and a great selection of the proper tools to dig this deeply into your engine.
I'm not trying to say don't do it, but please know what you are getting into.
I'm not sure someone who is unfamilar with valves being in the cylinder head on a four-stroke engine is ready.
Good luck whatever you decide, and we will be here to assist you.
Best wishes,
Todd
Quote from: Trwhouse on November 20, 2006, 10:24:30 AM
Hi facepants et al,
I have to say, anyone who is thinking about removing the cylinder head but isn't aware that the valves are part of the head is probably jumping in WAY over their own head (as in experience and aptitude, not as in cylinder head).
I know we all have to learn somewhere, but are you sure you are ready for this step?
Removing the cylinder head is very doable while the engine is in the fram, but it takes a special technique to try to remove the head without disturbing the cylinders and the cylinder base gasket. If you break that gasket seal, you should remove the cylinders and replace the base gasket, which then means you should hone the cylinders and replace the piston rings.
If all of this scares you, it should. You need to have a good repair manual and a great selection of the proper tools to dig this deeply into your engine.
I'm not trying to say don't do it, but please know what you are getting into.
I'm not sure someone who is unfamilar with valves being in the cylinder head on a four-stroke engine is ready.
Good luck whatever you decide, and we will be here to assist you.
Best wishes,
Todd
None of it scares me. What scares me is getting in there and finding out that I need a new engine and not just a top end rebuild. I've been through the haynes manual several times and over a lot of posts here. I assume the valves would be one of the more obvious points in a head removal, which is probably why it wasn't clear in the haynes manual. I figured they were around there somewhere, I was just hoping that they wouldn't just slide out and land on the ground while i was removing the head. I just don't want to leave any stone unturned.
I'm slowly gathering all the proper tools and reading up on the tips and techniques here. I have faith in myself and faith in the help from the experts on this board. I'm certainly not going into this blindly.
I'm sure that as soon as I actually see everything, it will make a lot more sense. Pictures from one badly chosen angle aren't very helpful.
Thanks for the support.
Hi again facepants,
So tell us again why you are even getting ready to pull the cylinder head off the engine?
What are you trying to fix here?
There's nothing in your post about the problem you are having with the bike.
Let's talk about that before you take anything apart. :)
Best wishes,
Todd
I have discussed my problem in a different thread. You can check it out here:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=31890.0
Might be better to move the discussion over there instead of tearing up this thread.
Well, I'm glad I just read this just before my internet at home went out, yesterday! I could not get my head off, and I just needed a 1/4 of an inch more clearance to get the head off between the studs and the frame. I think every bike is a little different, as has been my experience.
I had removed the two upper engine bolts, front and back, and the rear bolt (so it would rotate lower and back) and loosened the fourth, but the engine didn't even budge when I lowered the jack. I really don't want to hit the last bolt with Liquid Wrench.
Any suggestions?
Quote from: scratch on November 21, 2006, 01:05:52 PM
I had removed the two upper engine bolts, front and back, and the rear bolt (so it would rotate lower and back) and loosened the fourth, but the engine didn't even budge when I lowered the jack. I really don't want to hit the last bolt with Liquid Wrench.
Any suggestions?
I found that the clearance between the engine and the frame (and subframe) attachment points is actually pretty tight. The frame or subframe might just be preventing the engine from rotating. Maybe try tapping the engine from the top with a rubber mallet to loosen it up. Also it might be easier to rotate the front down because there are fewer obstructions there I think.
Why are you taking your engine apart??? That oil leak...?
Oh, one other thing to keep in mind is that the self-locking nuts that attach the engine to the frame are one-use only, since the locking part of them actually deforms when you tighten it. Probably best to replace the ones that you've actually removed, they're only like $0.20 a piece.
Yep, that same ol' base gasket leak.
What's taking me so long is that I'm being meticulus; I'm brass brushing and using Nevr-Dul on each bolt that has rust on it, and cleaning areas that are revealed to me as I'm disassembling. I should be finished by Sunday.
It was kinda late last night...didn't think to tap it with the mallet. Thanks!
I'll be ordering those nuts tonight. Thanks, again!
Well, as it turns out I can take the head out with the motor in the frame, I just had to remove all four engine mounting bolts! For some reason, my $#it is tight in there.
Now in just getting the head loose, I had to use a chisel to spin these copper washers off of the studs:
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4335/bike029nr4.jpg)
This is the space have to work in:
(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5102/bike030xu1.jpg)
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6849/bike031fx7.jpg)
The head's off!
(http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8113/bike033lz6.jpg)
Choke on too long!
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/459/bike037vg8.jpg)
Choke on way too long!
(http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3924/bike042pt5.jpg)
This side too!
(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/826/bike044qi6.jpg)
You can't see it, but the crosshatch is perfect. I'm so pleased! 35,488miles :thumb:
And now, I have this ring of carbon around my cylinders.
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2721/bike050vh5.jpg)
The best way to remove this stuff without damaging the cylinder walls is to use a wooden scraper or soft brass bristle brush.
(http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1950/bike053bo3.jpg)
Look at that crosshatch! Belissimo! Beautiful!
(http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/3680/bike048yz0.jpg)
Cylinder art?
(http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/3283/bike051qf0.jpg)
What are you going to use to clean off the pistons?
The same brass bristle brush. Most of the big stuff just flakes off, but I will have to use the wood handle of the brush to scrape away the harder stuff. Note: the pistons will be removed to better facilitate scraping.
Quote from: scratch on November 24, 2006, 07:40:55 PM
The same brass bristle brush. Most of the big stuff just flakes off, but I will have to use the wood handle of the brush to scrape away the harder stuff. Note: the pistons will be removed to better facilitate scraping.
Do you think you could post a picture of the brush so that I can get an idea of what to look for at the store? I'll be doing this myself pretty soon.
Thanks
Loctite "Chisel" gasket remover spray does a good job of softening up the carbon deposits. I tried all kinds of different chemicals and that one worked the best.
+1 on the Loctite Chisel. I have used it many times and always had excellent results. Essentially its foamy paintstripper in an earosol so dont get it any polished/painted sufaces and WEAR GOGGLES if you use it.....It will blind you if you get enough in your eyes. I "borrow" the odd can from work :oops: but there are plenty of similar proprietry brands available that do the same thing.
http://68.72.74.113/PRODUCTS/790.htm
Quote from: facepants on November 27, 2006, 05:37:42 PM
Quote from: scratch on November 24, 2006, 07:40:55 PM
The same brass bristle brush. Most of the big stuff just flakes off, but I will have to use the wood handle of the brush to scrape away the harder stuff. Note: the pistons will be removed to better facilitate scraping.
Do you think you could post a picture of the brush so that I can get an idea of what to look for at the store? I'll be doing this myself pretty soon.
Thanks
Sure! (that's a nickle):
(http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/6830/bikeht0.jpg)
Those brushes worked like magic ;)
How did you clean off the bottom of the head where the valves are? Can you just use the same brushes?
Thanks
Yes, you can use the same brushes.
First, I flip the head over (make sure the shims and buckets don't come out, or at least remember which shim and bucket came out of which cavity), and fill the combustion area with kerosene and leave it for at least a half hour to see if the valves are leaking (the kerosene should puddle under the head).
Then with the kerosene still in there (means no leaky valve seats, and the valves are seating correctly, and properly, all the way around) scrub with the brushes.
Flush with kero, and then let air dry for an hour (or longer).
Why an hour? Because the carbon will absorb the kero and as it evaporates the carbon will flake up, making it easier to lift up with the brush.
Brush again. I like my valves to shine.
Great tips. Thanks ;)
In that savage I also have the crosshatch visible and that carbon ring is barely feelable. There is no metal ridge like thing in there??
I am thinking of leaving the carbon in there, I aint too crazy about scraping the thing. I got enough metal shavings and abrasive dust by welding the cam chain trench and grinding it back to almost flush ... I could live without the extra excitement.
I pretty much hand splattered 1/2 a gallon of gasoline, 1 hand full at a time on the lower end with te bike hung leaning right ... and got the thing cleaned up.
I think I'll leave this thing as is. But you have a ridge of sorts under than carbon ??? - your carbon is much worse than mine really.
Quote from: scratch on December 19, 2006, 02:22:10 PMand fill the combustion area with kerosene
Do the chemical properties of kerosene make it better than other things for removing carbon buildup?
Does it have to be kerosene or would something like acetone work just as well? (Having some trouble finding pure kerosene)
In the past I have used GOJO hand cleaner (non pumice) to remove carbon from tiny,hard to reach places. It melts the carbon right out. Might be worth a try.
Finally got my hands on some kerosene.
So when I fill up the combustion chambers with kerosene, none of it should leak out at all? I filled it up the first time and it was leaking like crazy. I scrubbed, then flushed it out and refilled and it didn't leak after that. Does that sound okay?
Hmm...it would be okay if you cleaned away an obstructing particle that was keeping the valve open.
If it doesn't leak now, I'd say its allright.
Oh no ... it should leak like a sieve. In fact, kerosene will eat cylinders. Yea, its like that experiment 626 (Lilo and stitch - funniest movie I have ever seen in a while) ... O0
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: seshadri_srinath on January 03, 2007, 01:59:42 PM
Oh no ... it should leak like a sieve. In fact, kerosene will eat cylinders. Yea, its like that experiment 626 (Lilo and stitch - funniest movie I have ever seen in a while) ... O0
Cool.
Srinath.
Uhh... what? Lilo and stitch?
So are you saying it's a bad thing to use kerosene to clean valves, or are you just reliving scenes from cartoons?
It's not bad, he's just going on a tangent.
Quote from: facepants on January 03, 2007, 02:11:22 PM
Quote from: seshadri_srinath on January 03, 2007, 01:59:42 PM
Oh no ... it should leak like a sieve. In fact, kerosene will eat cylinders. Yea, its like that experiment 626 (Lilo and stitch - funniest movie I have ever seen in a while) ... O0
Cool.
Srinath.
Uhh... what? Lilo and stitch?
So are you saying it's a bad thing to use kerosene to clean valves, or are you just reliving scenes from cartoons?
Cartoons man, the real deal ... lilo and stich while it sounds a bit I dunno ... like a chick flick ... if you're into 8 year old chicks ... and it is ... some of the bits are simply superb ... even for a cartoon.
Cool.
Srinath.