Well you know what sucks worse than stock springs? Stock springs with bad fork seals. I was on my bike today and the front end felt especially soft. I was able to bottom it out just by pushing on it. It was then I noticed that there was a nice layer of oil on the left fork, and a beginning sheen on the right.
Problem is that I don't have any money to fix it right now. I want progressives because the stock springs are way too weak for my size (220 lb), but I just don't have the money to even buy the seals. I guess I just won't be pushing it on any twisties any time soon.
3imo, I guess it's a good thing I didn't try to make it to DeFuniak this weekend....
Fix the seals, replace the oil with a heavier weight (stock is 10w and you're going to hafta replace the oil anyway), and you should be able to afford some $.99 spacers from Home Depot (the schedule 40 PCV caps) to tie you over until you can get the Progressives.
I just did my fork seals today and replaced the stock spacers entirely. I used pipe from an old screen house that was the same size and weight and just cut them longer, stiffened up quite a bit, might be a bit too much for me but I can always cut it shorter. Got my front Pirelli on too :thumb:
Don't ride with leaking front struts!
My cousin is currently in hostipal for doing so!
The oil saturated his brake pads meanin he couldn't stop, so he crashed up the rear of a car that stopped in front of him.
Yes, the front springs suck.
Putting thicker fork oil in doesn't change the FACT that the springs don't have enough "oommph" - it only hides the problem.
Changing the springs is an easy, inexpensive fix.
If this is such a well known problem?
Why doesn't Suzuki fix it!
Surely fix wouldn't cost them much money? Just a set of progressive springs and they are away! :dunno_white:
"Entry" level bikes mean "entry" level components that allow a price point for folks to get into the Suzuki brand. Sure, a $60 to $100 upgrade may seem like an allowable concession to us to make the bike better out of the door, but Suzuki has probably had those springs (or had them made for them by a sub) for 30 years at a price point for them (along with a number of other components on the bike) that just gets cheaper the more that are made.
If the gs500 was perfect, we either couldn't afford it, or would have nothing to mod.
Even the DL1000 has parts that you'd want to upgrade to make it a better bike. I can't think of a bike that doesn't have that. Ducati has Corse parts and programs that are better than stock.
If a car had such a bad reputation for its suspension, they would upgrade it on the next model and work out how to do so for the same price or less.
you can get fork seals for 5 bux off ebay. you can do the whole job for less then 20 bux. btw, i wouldnt say its real easy. it can turn into a real challenge if you dont have the right tools.
-ash
Quote from: galahs on April 15, 2006, 06:44:05 AM
If a car had such a bad reputation for its suspension, they would upgrade it on the next model and work out how to do so for the same price or less.
oh really?
Example: Dodge Neon.
fin.
fixing the front forks makes a world of differance. I just put in race springs and gold enulators along with a new set of sport demons. the thing now handles so so SO much better. the stiffer springs make it alot more stable at highway speeds as well. defanatly a mod worth doing.
See this thread...
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=25662.0
Quote from: ashman on April 15, 2006, 11:13:56 AM
you can get fork seals for 5 bux off ebay. you can do the whole job for less then 20 bux. btw, i wouldnt say its real easy. it can turn into a real challenge if you dont have the right tools.
-ash
Hey ash, I just figured out what you mean. I don't have access to my impact wrench, and I can't get the forks apart. The hex bolt at the bottom of the slider just turns...and turns... and turns.... I guess the seal replacement will have to wait until I get to my mom's house in AR next week, where my compressor and air wrenches are currently located. I'm going to experiment with a thicker oil and PVC spacers until then, and see how that does.
Have you forgotten the 'crash' part of riding with leaking seals! Ya know, fluid on the brake disk - makes for really bad braking!
Think bout that first! Be careful!
Dandy
Quote from: TragicImage on April 15, 2006, 04:47:00 PM
Quote from: galahs on April 15, 2006, 06:44:05 AM
If a car had such a bad reputation for its suspension, they would upgrade it on the next model and work out how to do so for the same price or less.
oh really?
Example: Dodge Neon.
fin.
Right on. The van my Wife drives has (I swear) the same brakes that the neon has and it's twice as heavy. Recycle, if it doesn't cause lawsuits, keep it on.
What are a couple good brands of front springs? Might as well grab some while I still have some cash to spare. I need a new front tire, too...
I think the other reason (apart cost) to put softer springs is to make GS more forgiving. Soft springs almost eliminate the need of progressive braking. So if you grab the brakes suddenly and very hard you would get better traction with stock springs, because the weight of a bike would jump on a front tire more quickly. Ofcourse when you have learned progressive braking those stock springs are a pain.
I nearly dropped my bike yesterday because of its soft front springs :mad:
I was riding slowly about 5km/h and just about to park my bike, when I had to stop all of a sudden to avoid hitting another bike that stopped infront of me quicker than I expected.
I grabbed a handfull of the front brake and the nose dropped so much it threw me forwardish, and was lucky to get enough strength in my legs to hold it up.
I'm now convinced I need to upgrade my front springs.
I'm leaning towards going with reacetech springs. Does anyone know where you can get them in Australia?
Wow, I just read this on http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com
Quote
What about progressively wound springs?
Some companies manufacture springs that are wound progressively or have dual/triple rates. Progressive Suspension, HyperPro and WP Suspension are most noted for these. These springs are marketed to novice riders as a one size fits all solution to spring tuning. This is an extremely foolish way of looking at springing a bike and should not be encouraged. That said, progressive or dual rate springs do have a place in suspension tuning. These springs should not be used until every other suspension tuning avenue has been explored without success. Quality sportbike suspension has more than enough tuning options to account for almost any terrain or track. Going to these springs should be the last option for suspension tuning, not the first. Certainly in the rear of the bike, to adjust for progressive, linear, or regressive rates the linkages rather than the spring should be modified. Progressive springs are very difficult for even professional tuners to get right without the ability to have custom 'one offs' made for each track and rider. Miguel Duhamel's HRC WSB superbikes are rumored to use progressively wound fork springs.
Stock machines may come with progressively wound springs. This is not done for performance by any means. This is done for the previously mentioned reason, that the factory is trying to make a bike that will perform reasonably well for almost all riders.
Since the original post, I have decided against the progressives in favor of the RaceTechs. I still don't have the money for them right now though.
I'll be keeping an eye on my forks.
I want to replace mine, I just have no clue about how to go about doing it. I bottomed out on a slight dip going only about 25...
Quote from: Queso on May 21, 2006, 12:37:01 PM
I want to replace mine, I just have no clue about how to go about doing it. I bottomed out on a slight dip going only about 25...
Here ya go. From the FAQ:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=25706.0
If you have any questions feel free to ask.
Now if we just had a fork seal replacement howto, we'd be set. Maybe I'll have to do one....
By the way, my forks had a couple of rust spots on the exposed, cosmetic part (not in the functional area or anything). I was able to successfully remove the rust with aluminum foil. It didn't scratch up the forks like sandpaper would, and did a damn good job of cleaning off the rust. The chrome still has pits, but hopefully with an occasional rubdown with an oil-soaked cloth I can prevent the rust from reforming. Maybe this info will be helpful to someone who wants shiny forks.
Quote from: Egaeus on May 21, 2006, 08:29:29 PM
Now if we just had a fork seal replacement howto, we'd be set. Maybe I'll have to do one....
FORK SEALS
Doing fork seals is a breeze, get the parts, and fresh fork oil, some like 15w, I like 20w. Now - a quick and simple way to fork seals.
* I use airtools to make my life easier, not everyone has them or can get to them but you can still do the job with hand tools.
Get the front wheel off the ground (I set mine up High with jackstands), pull wheel, pull caliper and let hang to side, unbolt fender.
While tubes are still in clamps, use rachet with allen socket or air impact wrench (dialed down) if you got it with allen socket and blip it to break the bolt loose almost to the point of coming out.
Get a bucket or old butter bowl and place it under the fork you're working on (keep it there). Finish pulling the bolt and let the oil drain.
Now you can either loosen the clamps and drop the tubes out and work at a vice (use wood in the jaws so you dont scratch the tubes) or if you set the bike up HIGH do them on the bike. either way the top tubes must be secured solidly in place.
Gently pry up the dust cover that sits over the seals, there is a spring clip that holds the seal in place under the dust cover. Once clip is removed, take a 1/2" drive ratchet and pull the top caps. The idea is to NOW unload the springs. (Remember that butter bowl? Is it still in place? Should be.)
Once caps are removed more oil WILL come out. (Remember any spacers/washers that come out -- they must go back in.) Pull springs if you like.
Now being as the tube is still secured in Vice or fork clamps, compress the lower tube and give a quick yank to separate the upper and lower, the seal will come out, you will see the Valve that the little allen bolt was holding, those spin when you try to break loose by hand, you get nowhere.
Clean everything up. If changing dust boot, do it now. Slide new lubed seal over tube, make sure bushing (if it came out) is back in place, with washer that sits over that but under the seal. Slide tubes back together making sure the seal is seated, reinstall that clip and dust boot. Now, recompress the spring and thread top cap back on tight (only need few threads), put allen bolt back in the bottom and blip it tight (be gentle ok, you're not gun man on a pit crew)
Pop top cap and dump in your measured amount of oil. Replace top cap and tighten. At this point you can reinstall the fork on the bike (unless you did it on the bike like me) and do the same for the other fork. Even if only one is leaking, do both at same time. You already have the oil, seals come as a pair, it only makes sense.
If you dont like my method, that's cool, just follow the book. I have had both forks DONE and reinsalled running down the road inside 45 mins. Either way - if you think you can, do it yourself. Shops want 60$ per fork leg to do it, not including parts. Seals run about 14$.
Note: Just for clarification: the bolts spoken of are located at the bottom of each fork leg.
Also, before you slide the new seal on, place a plastic bag (like a sandwich bag) over the top of the fork tube and smear some fork oil over the bag, this will help protect the seal from the sharp edges of the fork tubes.
Cool. So the springs do put enough force on it to undo the bottom allen bolt by hand? I don't think I had the springs in. Definitely a problem. I'll probably still wait, since I have it back together for the most part, but thanks for the info.
Quote from: Egaeus on May 22, 2006, 06:52:24 AM
Cool. So the springs do put enough force on it to undo the bottom allen bolt by hand? I don't think I had the springs in. Definitely a problem. I'll probably still wait, since I have it back together for the most part, but thanks for the info.
Not necessarily. Those bolts have thread lock on them. With impact tools you get them loose, but without the proper tool to hold the damper rod it gets difficult with hand tools. you can ipmrovise a tool with a threaded bar and two countered nuts, though. (Or you can squeeze the right size of bolt (for the hex head) in a piece of tube.)
I have heard that the newer Fs don't have the allen socket in the damper rod anymore. Must be a major pain in the neck to get them out without the special Suzuki tool.
Okay, so I got the allen bolt out now that I have an impact wrench. So now how do I remove the snap ring that's under the dust cover? It won't come out.
That ring is just a length of bent wire (not a continuous loop). Find the split, and use a small-bladed flathead screwdriver to hook one of the "indents" on either side of it (the split). With one of the ends levered out, you can grab the ring and pull the rest of it out easily.
Yeah, that's the problem I'm having. I can't find the end. I've levered on all of the indents, and not an end in sight. It seems to be under the fork seal. Is that how it's supposed to be, or is that why my seals are leaking?
The split ring is UNDER the fork seal? Gulp!
EDIT: I can't fathom how the dust seal could fit in that scenario. Maybe you meant that the split ends of the retaining ring seem to be lower than the top surface of the fork seal? (The ring is embedded in the rubber, maybe?)
Yeah, that's what I meant. I finally got it out. However, it's no longer serviceable (i.e. all bent to $#!+). Hopefully I can find something locally that will work. It's not really a rare part, just a question of finding someone who has one.
Next question is how do I get the metal slide that's under the fork seal back down into its place, and then get the new fork seal back into its place without damage. I usually drive oil seals with an appropriately sized socket and mallet, but it won't work in this case.
Edit: did I mention that I left my manual in Florida? :icon_rolleyes:
i got a 2-3 ft section of PVC pipe from lowes....1.46 = 37 mm
therefore i got 1.5 ID tube and cut a slit about 8 inches up and use a hose clamp to get it close to 37.5mm id then slide it on over the seal
Same here, except my PVC pipe seems to work without the slit. :dunno_white:
Here it is, serving as a garage for my "damper bolt loosener / tightener tool".
(http://www.bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_1464_PVC_ForkSealDriver.jpg)
(Read several posts starting HERE (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=7084.msg59516#msg59516) for two versions of the tool.)
Kerry,
i'm glad you are back, even if it is only once in a while
I ended up using a brass punch. It took a while and a gentle hand, but it seems to be on okay. I even got the C clip bent back into something resembling its original shape and it seems to be working. I'll fill them up with oil tomorrow and see what happens.
Kerry has a new avatar!
Quote from: galahs on May 30, 2006, 09:53:56 PM
Kerry has a new avatar!
Yeah ... for 2 or 3 days now. :icon_rolleyes:
I plan to switch it up every couple weeks if I remember. Stay tuned!