OK guys.... I've posted about this before but I wanted to update you on my so called progress and see what our collective brain can come up with.
I have lost my left cylinder (not missing in limbo... just wont fire). Here is the entire puzzle to explain everything that could happen to possibly cause this.
Once upon a time a long time ago.... I was a stupid squid and knew nothing about bikes... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. To make a long story short... i thought i had an oil leak and didn't... i kept adding oil (dont laugh... i didn't know and it was a long time ago) until 5-6 quarts later I DID have an oil leak.... EVERYWHERE. I read some books... learned some and moved into fixing my bike (that i had only had for a month) The bike still ran... but leaked oil everywhere and developped a loud tick that may or may not have been the cam chain tensioner or cam float.
I replaced all of the gaskets (head, cylinder, oil pan, generator, etc) and went to put the head back on....
Then I bent the valves cause I didn't know you had to put tigten the exhuast cam so that one of the valves was down (engaged). (I was 3 teeth off... doh!)
I bought another bike and learned from my mistakes.
In the mean time i left the old one in the rain uncovered for some time...
THen I (in list form)
-rebuilt the head (new valves and seals... but DID NOT LAP THE VALVES)
-Found that my left cylinder fouled after some long riding.
-installed a K&N pod and a rejet (127.5 and 40...1 washer... already had a slip on)
-after some time found that the left cylinder fouled after short rides
-replaced the cdi box (used)
-replaced the coils (used)
-after some time (a while after this attempt) discovered that teh left cylinder would not fire at all... no firing at all...
-replaced the signal generator (used)
-replaced the wire harness (used)
-rebuilt and cleaned the carbs including emulsion tubes (all new o-rings accept the one under the emulsion tubes and the left needle and valve)
-checked the float height via the kerry test (checked out fine)
-balanced the carbs
-switched the coils (no response)
-took up smoking (cigarettes)
There has been no response to any of these fixes... as you can tell I've spent a whole lot of time and money into fixing this bike. Here are my only two options I can think of... tell me what you think or if there might be something I'm missing...
1. The new found sealing power from a rebuilt head brought to life a compression leak in the piston rings (need new rings)
2. Not lapping the valves hindered them from sealing properly thereby leaking and not allowing the left cylinder to fire.
3. My intake valves are tight but not that bad... i hightly doubt this to be the cause... but its possible i guess
4. My bike hates me and wants me to cry.....
Any help would be appreciated!
okay, I've found the problem, and its totally simple.
your left cylinder doesn't fire.
have you replaced your Spark Plugs? are they gapped properly?.... (stupid questions I know)
no help is stupid help.... but yeah.. i've ben through like 12 sets... i've used the ngk 4929's and the champions and checked the gap like 1000 times... i wish it were that
I would be interested in the resistance values you get as you fill out the checklist in this old post (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=5500.msg45007#msg45007). Feel free to read the whole torturous thread for more background on my own "bad left cylinder" saga, which lasted 5 months.... :mad:
i know that you have probly done this but have you pulled out the plug and held it up to the engine to make sure it is actually sparking. don't hold onto it unless you really want to learn why, the hard way :)
If it helps, I was always able to get a spark against the engine from the left spark plug. But the cylinder still wouldn't fire - or fired "weakly" with a weird rythym and sent a lot of unburned fuel out the exhaust pipe.
It wasn't until I made my way through the wiring diagram with an ohmmeter that I found the problem. In my case it was a corroded connector -- in this case it sounds like a missing connection somewhere.
Do you have compression on the left cylinder? If so, you know the rings and valves aren't the problem. You can borrow a compression tester from auto parts stores if you don't have one.
-M
I've used a compression tester... i'm getting around 135 on each cylinder.. this is lower... but not abnormal for such and old bike..... this is why i'm puzzled....
HEY.... ESPECIALLY KERRY.... COULD THE REGULATOR do this????
when you said you had the head rebeilt did you use the old pistons and rings i'm guessing ? .. you had the head off if it where me i would have shiped it off and had it bored and ported :icon_lol: but thats me .. you might havewanted to buy new pistons and rings to use in there .......
Quote from: KYGS500E on May 23, 2006, 02:42:23 PM
I've used a compression tester... i'm getting around 135 on each cylinder.. this is lower... but not abnormal for such and old bike..... this is why i'm puzzled....
HEY.... ESPECIALLY KERRY.... COULD THE REGULATOR do this????
That's perfectly healthy, so your top end is not the problem. It's gotta be electrical. Work through the flowchart that Kerry posted and see what you come up with. Sorry it's been such a pita, I hate electrical gremlins.
-M
Quote from: KYGS500E on May 23, 2006, 02:42:23 PMCOULD THE REGULATOR do this????
Good question! I didn't have to get into the regulator for my fix, so I haven't done much in the way of regulator research. But in my "stack o' stuff" I have some scans from the Haynes manual that will give you the expected resistance values. Hang on....
Ah - here it is:
Regulator/rectifier unit - check and replacement (http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_Reg_Rect_Test.jpg)[/list]
It's probably not related, but along with that I included some other "charging system" info in this old thread (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=4770.0).
Are
John Bates and
starwalt still active on the forum? They were pretty good at electrical stuff....
My disclaimer: I do not own a GS. Most of my bike workings come from my old CBs. I will assume your bike has breaker ignition?
To run, a bike needs;
Air & Fuel
Compression
Spark
Air/Fuel you took care of with the rebuild. Just to be sure, you could pull the exhaust off, disable the ignition, and put a piece of paper in front of the exhaust ports. Crank it over. They should both get equally damp with the atomized fuel, indicating your carbs are working.
Compression: You tested. 135 psi is fine.
Spark. The worst of the 3. First, the obvious: Swap the coils left to right. If the left cylinder starts working, you know your coils buggered. If not, continue. Check for 12V at the coil with key on. Without the electrical diagrams, I can't tell you the colours, but there's only two wires and ONE should be hot with the key in RUN (12V positive). If neither is 12V+ with key in RUN, that's the problem. The other wire is the ground side, which SHOULD be grounded. If it is not, turn the motor over 90 degrees and check again (points could be open). If still no, that's your problem. Assuming you have 12V constant and Ground pulsed (from the breakers) you will have spark. It might not be at the right time though.
Question: How do you know your left side isn't firing? Exhaust pipe cold?
regulator should have nothing to do with your problem.
12.5 V at the batt?
13.6-13.8V when running?
are you getting spark? on the left
is the left float stuck shut?
fuel in the bowl?
i.... did you paint the frame?
ok.... I'm going to try to get my hands on a multimeter soon ( have a friend with a good one). My floats are opporating fine cause i tested the levels via float height check. If it makes any difference I too had intermitten and weak spark at one time (a bit ago) before the cylinder stopped firing altogether. I assume this because the cylinder is cold even after a long period of running and the plug is just wet and no color change (metal color only... not white or black... or tan)
Thank you all for yoru help... I'll post again when I get my multimeter
hey kerry... what connection was bad for you and caused this problem?
I'll read the write up right now... just chekcing ... its forever long
I think it was the cigarettes. Seriously, why would you take it up all of a sudden?
The things that caught my eye were:
-rebuilt and cleaned the carbs including emulsion tubes (all new o-rings accept the one under the emulsion tubes and the left needle and valve)
It's your left cylinder that's giving you trouble, right?
-took up smoking (cigarettes)
*Slap*
1. The new found sealing power from a rebuilt head brought to life a compression leak in the piston rings (need new rings)
2. Not lapping the valves hindered them from sealing properly thereby leaking and not allowing the left cylinder to fire.
Do a leakdown test to see if one of these could be the problem.
3. My intake valves are tight but not that bad... i hightly doubt this to be the cause... but its possible i guess
Adjust your valves. It's not that expensive. Shims are $10 from the stealer, less from aftermarket.
nice to see Kerry back...
Good luck with the cylinder.
Quote from: Noltz on May 23, 2006, 04:12:04 PM
..........................................................
Check for 12V at the coil with key on. Without the electrical diagrams, I can't tell you the colours, but there's only two wires and ONE should be hot with the key in RUN (12V positive).
The 12V wire is orange/white. Also put transmission in neutral and engine stop switch in ON position.
Quote from: Noltz on May 23, 2006, 04:12:04 PM
The other wire is the ground side, which SHOULD be grounded. If it is not, turn the motor over 90 degrees and check again (points could be open). If still no, that's your problem. Assuming you have 12V constant and Ground pulsed (from the breakers) you will have spark. It might not be at the right time though.
.......
The ignition system is transistorized.
Quote from: KYGS500E on May 23, 2006, 08:11:51 PM
hey kerry... what connection was bad for you and caused this problem?
I'll read the write up right now... just chekcing ... its forever long
How's the "wading" coming? :laugh: I just now went back through the thread, and almost everything you need is on page 3. Two posts up from the checklist that I linked to is a photo. It shows the 4-wire connector that had a SINGLE bad connection ... and the set of separate "quick connectors" that I eventually replaced it with.
Unless you've been trying to clean your battery terminals with a baking soda solution while it's still in the bike ( :oops: ), you probably won't have the exact same problem I did. But I bet the problem IS electrical, and that it is somewhere between the connectors I describe on that 3rd page and the signal generators ... which are behind the right-side engine case cover. Taking the readings to fill out the checklist should handily prove or disprove that theory.
Hey Kerry... i have to say i'm impressed that you returned for my post....
Just to let EVERYONE know... the smoking thing was just a joke.... i think its a nasty habit! Plus... i'd get fired if i smoked (clergy...lol).
Anyways... I'm all over that check list. I'll be checking the wires really soon (as soon as I get my hands on a multi meter.)
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS THOUGH...
Since i did replace the wire harness with another one and there was NO change in the condition... I would assume that it has to be outside of the harness (i.e. an external part like the cdi box, signal generator, etc). My confusion is that I have replaced all of these as well with no luck...
New signal generator (pulse generator)
New CDI Box
New coils (actually all these parts are used which isn't perfect....but makes it unliekly that they are bad)
The only ones i haven't replaced are as follows:
Kickstand switch wire (possible???)
Oil pressure wire (possible???)
Rectifier/regulator (possible???)
clutch switch wire (posible???)
I'm going to look at that diagram (which thanks to kerry has been on my computer for some time now) and see if these could relate... I'm not sure.... lemme know what you think
ok... here are the findings from the tests...
3 wire connector:
B/blue & Brown = .340
B/blue & g/w = .345
All is good there
B/blue = .001
Brown = .001
g/w = .001
All seems well here
Between Black/blue & Brown = 1 (i think this is infinity??? I dunno... )
Between Black/blue & Green/White = 1 ( I think this is infinity... )
1. Did i do the test correctly?
2. What do the findings translate to?
3. I hate electrical things!!!
I'm not sure what any of this means.... i set the multimeter to 2K (thats what is said) on the section with the omega not the "V". I plugged the red probe into the far left plug (had an omega) and the black probe into the middle plug (labeled COM).
Rats! So much for the checklist.... :icon_confused:
Actually, your first test (values of .340 and .345) told you everything you needed to know. Those readings mean that everything is well-connected from that first 3-wire connector all the way down to the signal generators and back. Only if one of those had come out '1' (infinity, as you thought) would you need to continue down the list of tests. Time to "refine" that post a bit....
The only related test that I can think of is to make sure that the connections to the OTHER half of the 3-wire connector (and THROUGH the connector) are good. Otherwise, it's back to the drawing board.
Sorry if I got your hopes up. I guess I'm out of the running for "Smartest GS'er". Sigh.
its cool man... thanx for all your help...
What do you think about bad rings??? I dunno
Auxillary ground ... you knew it was comming.
Cool.
Srinath.
yeah... i know... i redid it twice! I'm not sure where, however it bolts to the frame... where ???
Battery to wiring loom ... and then ... no idea ...
Also that same thing happened on my virago 535 and was a black box error.
Cool.
Srinath.
KY, did you try the suggestion posted earlier about taking off the exhaust and holding a piece of paper over the ports while cranking it over? I wonder if there isn't a carb problem at the bottom of this considering how much of the electical system you're already replaced.
-M
ya got to isolate it....
old fire triangle stuff
air/fuel/spark
and in an engine....compression
what are you missing
untill you determine what ain't working you will not be able to fix it
really....is it a fuel prob or spark prob
did you paint the frame?
is the coil properly grounded to the frame....
did you swap coils and get the prob on the right?
In case it will help, here is a shot that I took a long time ago, with newly-added annotations:
(http://www.bbburma.net/MiscFotos/DSCF2440_Annotated.jpg)
The camera was held between the exhaust pipe and the front edge of the rear tire, pointing toward the front of the bike.
Here's one I don't think has been mentioned.
Bad diaphragm in the fuel pitcock resulting in sucking fuel thru the vacuum line and putting out the light in the left cylinder.
:cheers:
Quote from: KYGS500E on May 24, 2006, 04:21:25 AM
................................................
The only ones i haven't replaced are as follows:
Kickstand switch wire (possible???)
Oil pressure wire (possible???)
Rectifier/regulator (possible???)
clutch switch wire (posible???)
I'm going to look at that diagram (which thanks to kerry has been on my computer for some time now) and see if these could relate... I'm not sure.... lemme know what you think
These are not related to the ignition circuit in a way that would affect only the left cylinder.
:cheers:
[=s
ok... lemme try to remember all the suggestions...
Carbs: I've got the best way to test them... since I just got ANOTHER GS that runs great... i'm going to swap the carbs tommorrow (its my day off). If its carbs then the bike should run great now!
Auxilary Ground - ok... kerry... i thought i checked the auxilary ground... as a matter of fact I thought I checked it twice. I knew this was the first and most likely cause (and srinath as well) but that pic doesn't seem familiar to me. I'll check that as well.
Coils being grounded to the frame: I need to approach this at two different angles. This problem has always existed even then my coils were tightened against the frame (and the bike hasn't been painted (the frame that is). But now they are loose cause I've been taking them on and off so i left it that way for easy access. I'll put them back on tight now though.
Compression: I checked and that area is fine. I'm starting to think fuel or aux ground must be this issue. I'll also try the exhuast removal if none of the above work!
You guys have been so much help... hopefully we'll crack this one soon! I'll get my findings back soon!
Thanx so much,
Austin
ok guys... i'm looking at kerry's picture... I'm not finding this auxilary ground wire.... is it the one that connects to the bottom of the oil pan??? if not could some one describe with words what it bolts into???
Back side of the motor if I remember. And John Bates suggestion is also a good possibility. BTW so is carb synch and the air screw setting ... if one if hooked or rammed too deep ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: Wrecent_Wryder on May 25, 2006, 04:16:44 AMOn my '02, I'm 99.9 percent certain that the vacuum takeoff was on the right carb, though... doesn't it run off both carbs in the earlier models?
Just to confirm ... on pre-'01 bikes, the vacuum hose connects to the left carb. On '01+ bikes it connects to the right carb.
Quote from: KYGS500E on May 25, 2006, 06:50:35 AM
ok guys... i'm looking at kerry's picture... I'm not finding this auxilary ground wire.... is it the one that connects to the bottom of the oil pan???
Oil pan? Yeah, I guess that's what it is. If you're standing on the right-hand side of the bike, the ground wire connection is BEHIND the bundle of drainage tubes (and signal generator wire) that peek out between the frame and the rear of the engine ... just forward of the rear brake lever.
It's not the easiest thing to do, but you should be able to positively identify the ground wire by starting at the '-' terminal on the battery and following the wire down around the left side of the bike, kinda under the airbox, and across the back of the engine to that "bundle".
PS - I don't know of any reason that the ground wire HAS to be connected where it is. If you have replaced the wiring harness you may have bolted it on somewhere else. As long as it's a good connection....
i bought one once that had same problem turned out to be a broken wire from the ignition pick-up coil inside the casing about 8 inches back from ignition coils .look there .
+1 I lost a cylinder when I pinched one of these. I stillhad spark sometimes though.
Hey... i tested the resistance set at 2k on the ground wire (placing on probe on either end of the wire) and I got .000. this would tell me that its a good wire... and the connection is good cause i double checked it and put it back on... this is the phantom of all problem!
I hate this... :2guns: my bike
I could have worded my last reply a little more completely. :icon_confused:
It sounds like the ground wire itself is good, and that the connection made from it to the [oil pan / back of the motor] is
mechanically sound, but there's one more electrical resistance test you should perform on it.
With the ohmmeter set to 2K (or even the lowest setting)
* Touch one probe to the "-" terminal of the battery
* Touch the other probe to a piece of bare metal on (or connected to) the frame.
(Something
besides the ground wire or its connections.)[/list]
If you get a close-to-zero reading, you now know that there is a complete electrical path all the way from the battery to the rest of the bike.
*****
It seems to me that, if the ground wire were not connected properly, most of the electrical parts on the bike would not work AT ALL. But I :bowdown: to Srinath's experience when he asks you to check the "auxiliary ground". :dunno_white:
*****
ok... lemme update everyone on my progress (if you want to call it that)
Electrical:
- tested the continuity in the coil (primary winding = 4.5 ohms secondary = 18100) all good
-put another coil on the bike (had a few laying around) and no change
-tested the voltage on my battery not running (11.9 volts) (i'm not really sure if thats ok or not)
fuel:
-I didn't do the exhaust and paper test... however... I DID put the carbs from my 99 gs (running perfect) on the bike and there was no change there as well.
- I dont have a petcock to go bad... accept for the primary petcock in the thank... the previous owner used a "T" and joined the two lines and capped off the vacume line on the carb. (could this do it???? I dont think so cause it ran fine like that when i bought it)
Mechanical: HEre's one for ya... a while back (when the problem first began) the left side plugs would occasionally be bent closed... i haven't seen this problem for a while.... just wondering if anyone has had any experience with this?
Questions:
1. How do I check for 12 volts at the coil? What settings on the multimeter and what wires to touch... what position to have the key in, etc.
OK.... i think i tested for 12v at the coils correctly.... but i'm not sure...
I plugged the black wire into the "COM" hole (sounds kinda funny) and the red wire into the "V" hole.
Then I set it to 200 under the "V" side with a straight and dotted line over it (not a squigly line over it).
I DID NOT, however, get 12... I got like 4.5-5.5 on the left and 3.5-5.5 on the right...
I have no idea what this means... but if it is correct (and the motor was idling around 1000-1000 cause thats all I could get it to do) I dont have 12 volts.... I tried with teh bike off and tested both sides but I got "0" readings.
Whatcha guys think???
P.S.- lets revisit the beginnning of the problem.. what happened when all this started...
1. WAY too much oil and a clanging, clanking, ticking soudn began (at this point it ran well... just leaked oil a bunch... that is after i got the right amount of oil in it.... it ran after the bad oil episode)
2. bent the valves after redoing the seals
2.2 - left the bike sit outside all winder being covered part of the time!
3. rebuilt the head (seals and valves) but did not lap the valves or use that mody bdemun (however you spell it) paste
4. Bike ran but developed a slowly increasingly frequency of fouled left plugs
5. replaced everything knownw to man
6. somewhere along the line it increased to no firing at all on the left cylinder
jsut thought a recap of the roots of the issue might help us track it down.
Quote from: KYGS500E on May 26, 2006, 09:14:44 AM
OK.... i think i tested for 12v at the coils correctly.... but i'm not sure...
I plugged the black wire into the "COM" hole (sounds kinda funny) and the red wire into the "V" hole.
Then I set it to 200 under the "V" side with a straight and dotted line over it (not a squigly line over it).
I DID NOT, however, get 12... I got like 4.5-5.5 on the left and 3.5-5.5 on the right...
I have no idea what this means... but if it is correct (and the motor was idling around 1000-1000 cause thats all I could get it to do) I dont have 12 volts.... I tried with teh bike off and tested both sides but I got "0" readings.
Whatcha guys think???
5V is way to low for this reading.
Your meter setup sounds OK except you should use a lower range setting. Try the lowest setting that is higher than 12V, like 15 or 25 or 50. The 200 setting may not give you a real accurate reading at low voltages.
With the engine running you should get a little more than 12V, more like 13.5V to 15.5V.
With the engine off, put the transmission in neutral and engine stop switch in the ON position, then turn the ignition on. You should get something less than 12V because the charging system is not on and the lights are on. The voltage should be around 11V for a good fully charged battery.
:cheers:
if it is lower... like what I got... what would that indicate?
Quote from: KYGS500E on May 26, 2006, 11:50:47 AM
if it is lower... like what I got... what would that indicate?
You got a problem! :mad:
That voltage should be essentially the same as the battery voltage.
If you want to check voltages:
Starting with the Orange-White wire at the ignition coils and going up stream toward the battery:
Orange-White to the engine stop switch
Orange-Blue from the engine stop switch to the side stand relay
Orange from the side stand relay to the ignition switch
Red from the ignition switch to the 20A fuse
all these points should read the same voltage as the battery.
:cheers:
.
ok... so i retested the coils.... i tested them wrong last time:
This time I put the positive probe to the orange/white wire (disconnected from teh bike) and placed the black one to a grounded piece of metal (handlebars) and I got 10.8. I dont think this is too bad cause the battery is only charged to 11.3.
The last time i tested I placed the black probe to the ground wire (black wire) that also feeds into the coil and i got 4.5-5.5 While it was connected to the coil and the bike was running.
Anyone think this means anything other than its not a poor voltage issue?
OK... I ALSO did kerry's test for the ground (ohm meter to the frame and negative battery terminal) and it appears that the range that i get of resistance when doing this test is 8.9 - 3.3
Quote from: KYGS500E on May 27, 2006, 07:55:18 AM
OK... I ALSO did kerry's test for the ground (ohm meter to the frame and negative battery terminal) and it appears that the range that i get of resistance when doing this test is 8.9 - 3.3
I get 0.5 ohms.
Check the connections at both ends of the big black wire coming off the (-) negative battery post.
:cheers:
is that at 2K setting?
Quote from: KYGS500E on May 27, 2006, 12:54:55 PM
is that at 2K setting?
My meter has automatic range setting.
If your's is manual, set on it's lowest range. Probably 1 ohm, maybe 5.
:cheers:
0.3-0.8 ohm is what you should get for continuity
the handlebars are a bad source of ground(they kinda touch the frame...through grease....check to the frame or engine bolt
I'm sorry if I missed it, but how did you cap off the vacuum line that goes from the left carburetor to the petcock?
I have a piece of fuel tubing that has a cap placed in teh end opposite the carb
carb =========> cap w/ zip tie
kinda like that
Okay, I was just making sure it was capped off. That would be funny if it was caused by a vacuum leak. Not that I'm insinuating anything, but even the best of us have taken apart our fuel system trying to figure out why our engine won't run when we've simply run out of gas.
lol.... yeah... would be funny... funny enough to make me cry lol