I don't know when this was done or if it's been reposted, but it's new to me so just ignore if it's a repost. It's a Hurt Report on how well helmets actually hold up. It's a really long article that takes some time to me but from what I gathered, SNELL isn't as great as adverstised at protecting your dome. I've got the EXO-400 and although it tested ok, I was shocked to see that the ICON actually had a better score. Did I miss something in the article or do a bad job of reading comp? I think it's a fair thing to discuss and was wondering some of your feelings. If there are any long threads on this I'd appreciate a link so we don't need to rehash it. I just want to hear everyone's opinions.
Hurt Report (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/)
Disclaimer - I know lots of people have the scorpion so I'm not trying to scare anyone. I'm just genuinely curious if SNELL is all it's cracked up to be. I find it hard to believe but it seems like the cheaper the helmet, the better protection it provides.
That "study" said that an off the rack Pep Boys helmet will be safer for you than an Arai.
Yeah right.
Do a search for RG and helmet report . . . fun reading
And everyone know's when you buy an Arai helmet your your buying for looks not performance :icon_mrgreen:
Before I get flamed yes I was being sarcastic
Gald I wear a fulmer.
thats weird who would of thought of that cause i wouldnt
I do wonder how much % of the helmet cost is the actual cost of the helmet. The making of the helmet not advertiesing or sponsoring riders.
Seems all the $500 + helmets are made by companies that sponor riders Shoie, Suomy, AGV, Arai and Shark. . .and one that cost less are made by companies that don't have riders. Except for Schberth .. then again I don't know if they sponsor riders or not.
I got a $150 KBC helmet for the ventilation. I really like it, and a lot of people think it cost me twice what I paid... I'm alert, I ride geared, I'm not worried.
My AVG helmet cost me £240 sterling. and i believe the helmet is worth all that, its extremely light yet quite, it had padding but it doesnt cook your head in the sun. Also got a very intricate paint job.
I have no problem believing in this test. The "problem" is in the Snell standards, which don't correlate with real-world accidents.
In order to comply with Snell, which all high-end helmet makers feel that they must do for marketing reasons, they have to stiffen the liner to pass the extreme force impacts of the Snell tests. This study, however, ranked the helmets based on brain acceleration (similar to the DOT tests), so one would expect the non-Snell certified helmets to rank more highly.
After reading this article, I'm going to shop for one of the cheaper DOT-only helmets that protects my brain better in a typical accident scenario. More expensive doesn't mean better brain protection (unless you're planning on a 90mph headfirst impact). :o
I own a z1r and a exo-400...i trust the scorpion more...the z1r is made cheaply..my vents are crappy, and the padding isn't replaceable. The scorpion fits better too
I think we should hear replies from people who have actually crashed tested helmets. My Arai held up fine. My head hurt for about umm a couple minutes after but by the time the ambulance got there I was fine.
My friend, who crashed while riding rt 66 in New Mexico, also was wearing an Arai helmet when she went down and was going about 80mph. She had roughly the same to say as I did about them.
i don't understand why people flame that article so bad. i'm no physics guru...but the article seems to make logical sense. The double anvil hit does seem like it would call for a stiffer liner, but be an unlikely accident scenario. And it's not like the crazy-expensive helmets pull down much better impact ratings even by snell standards. It seems like they're just generally lighter, vent better, have more expensive shell materials, and crazier graphics/finishes.
Highsided was wearing my HJC Modular helmet paid $230 for it. Impacted forehead area slid about 10ft or so was not going that fast. Like I said impacted forehead area slid across the sheild and to the chin part of helmet. Didn't feel anything got up flip up the chin part picked up bike ( had help from a Harley guy ) pused to parking lot and rode back home.
HJC CL-12 ($150)
Hit a cow doing 45-50mph (me, not her) and flew right over. Bounced on the top of my helmet, hard enough to reshape 2 vertebrae (T6 & T7) and lightly chip a couple teeth. The helmet took just about all of my momentum, because after the bounce I landed on my back and only slid a few inches in the dirt.
Replaced it with another CL-12.
Tank slapper on the way back from a race a mallor (spectators not racing) i was on the back of my dads old triumph 1000, cant remeber it had a proper name. Went down a dip and hit aload of oil from the underneath of a lorry, bike went one way in a slide, caught traction and flipped over, flingin us both in the air, He didnt hit his head just scraped it moving along the floor so can't comment on the Arai. But my HJC was scarily broken. I caught the side chin area directly from the air when i hit the floor (what i can tell from the helmet and what i remeber. It was a £100 flip front helmet, the mechanism for the flip front twisted as though a broken jaw would (and displaced to the side of the helmet) i immediatly went back to wearing solid full helmet the AVG for £240. Luckily only a sprained neck and colar for a month and i was fine, had full gear etc. The old triumph sadly was written off. Im going to stick with solid helmet for ever now.
Quote from: 12thmonkey on June 08, 2006, 11:36:39 AM
i don't understand why people flame that article so bad.
People flame it because they have a hard time accepting that their expensive helmet would probably be harder on their brain in a typical crash than a much less expensive DOT-only helmet.
I read the whole thing and Snell's response and the magazine's response to the Snell response. I think the Snell standards are bogus. I'd rather have a soft cushion for my brain in a typical crash than have my skull intact and my brain scrambled. And, as the article pointed out, a crash that is as severe as the Snell tests would probably leave you with fatal injuries somewhere other than the head.
I'm cheap. And I always hoped it would pay off someday.... :laugh:
Quote from: trumpetguy on June 08, 2006, 02:26:38 PM
I read the whole thing and Snell's response and the magazine's response to the Snell response.
Yeah, i think the Snell response only served to reinforce Motorcyclist magazine's argument.
I looked at Shoei, HJC, and Arai helmets and choose a Shoei based only on how well it fit. The HJC was to short for my long skinny head and the Arai was either to tight or too loose, but the Shoei was just right. I also noticed the quality and comfort of the padding of the Shoei and Arai was far better then the HJC. IMO, fitment is the most important factor of a helmet.
Also take note this article used a fairly light impact force and did a very limited amount of testing. This really makes this data useless from an engineering standpoint.
You're absolutely right, a SNELL uses a higher deceleration force to allow for a wider range of possible impacts. Therefore "harder on your brain". The question here is simple.
Would you rather:
a) Experience a maximum survivable deceleration to your brain and not need all of the liner.
or
b) Bottom out in the helmet at less than maximum deceleration and be dead anyway.
Study the physics involved. The motorcyclist article misses a number of key points. The purpose of a helmet is to cover the widest possible range of impact speeds while offering reasonable deceleration in an acceptable liner thickness. The physics therefore dictate that the force required to compact the lining be as high as reasonably possible. (The Snell standard assumes around 300G, the maximum a young male can be expected to endure without permanent injury.)
The director of Snell admits that more testing needs to be done to come up with statistics relating to real world crashes, G-forces involved, and injuries sustained. Unfortunately, nobody is interested in funding it. In the mean time being young, male, and in good health, I'll take 300G as opposed to bottoming out. That route has better odds.
We have Dot and Snell standards here in the states. But in Europe they have their own standard thats supposed to be better then either snell or Dot. Any truth to this?
Yea we don't have Snell or DOT over here. There is European standards and then ontop of this Britain tests all helmets too. You can tell which ones helmets have passed as they have a chip like sticker on the back. Mine is British Standard and European Standard indicated by the kite marks on the back. So it complies with both. I feel very safe in my helmet.
This is just a little bit of a clip from the helmet law here in the UK, i was suprised but since helmets are not law over in all states in America you probably arn't.
Quote from: Department for TransportIf you are driving or riding on a 2-wheeled motorcycle on a road you must wear a helmet. Passengers in a sidecar don't have to wear a helmet and neither does a Sikh who is wearing a turban. Also, no helmet is needed if someone is pushing the motorcycle on foot.
What suprised me is you dont need a helmet if your in a sidecar, yet if a bike was to crash you would be just as injured as a rider when you fly out without a helemet. And also if you wear a turban as part of your religion you don't have to wear a helmet. I've seen this happen there is someone by my school who rides with just their turban on and i thought that they were just breaking the law but seems not. I can't believe (not being discriminative) but a cloth turban would protect you from any accident.
The tests motorcyclist used to determine that Z1R whatever was good ... is plenty applicable to the real world. As in the snell tests ... now most helmet weenies (AKA people who make $$ selling them) trash the cheapo helmets that rated high in the Motorcyclist test by saying the tests were not possible in the real world ... what ever ... BS.
The reason Z1's and fulmer rated well is the size ...
Their shell is a bit thicker ... but its made of a weaker material ... kevlar/Fiberglass mix in shoei is better and they can use a thinner wall ... not a fulmer is like 30% larger in size ... that shell may be an extra couple 100th's ... the rest is extra styrofoam ... whihc is the best material you can have next to your head ...
Shoeii should amke a plastic helmet that is the size of a watermelon ... and sell it for cheap ... like under $150. Lets see what Z1 then ...
In any case extra size wont bother me, I hate shoeii but the fact is ... styrofoam is better ... and more styrofoam is more better ... O0 ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: GeeP on June 08, 2006, 10:39:03 PM
You're absolutely right, a SNELL uses a higher deceleration force to allow for a wider range of possible impacts. Therefore "harder on your brain". The question here is simple.
You failed to quote the rest of my phrase. I said "harder on your brain IN A TYPICAL CRASH." A big difference.
Quote from: GeeP on June 08, 2006, 10:39:03 PM
Would you rather:
a) Experience a maximum survivable deceleration to your brain and not need all of the liner.
or
b) Bottom out in the helmet at less than maximum deceleration and be dead anyway.
Study the physics involved. The motorcyclist article misses a number of key points. The purpose of a helmet is to cover the widest possible range of impact speeds while offering reasonable deceleration in an acceptable liner thickness. The physics therefore dictate that the force required to compact the lining be as high as reasonably possible. (The Snell standard assumes around 300G, the maximum a young male can be expected to endure without permanent injury.)
Ah, but I'm not a young male. In fact, I'm in the last category they listed. At 49, I'm almost dead. :laugh:
It's all a calculated gamble. Do I want a helmet that will:
1) protect my brain best in a typical real-world crash, or
2)one that will protect me in the tiny percentage of crashes that involve huge helmet impacts with non-flat surfaces or objects?
Given that choice (and we are given that choice), I'll take the one that softens the blow in MOST accidents. As an old man, I'm probably not surviving the other accident anyway.
And I'm all about the physics. That's what convinced me that Snell testing is massive overkill and results in a harder liner that can survive tests that my brain probably won't.
Quote from: GeeP on June 08, 2006, 10:39:03 PMThe director of Snell admits that more testing needs to be done to come up with statistics relating to real world crashes, G-forces involved, and injuries sustained. Unfortunately, nobody is interested in funding it. In the mean time being young, male, and in good health, I'll take 300G as opposed to bottoming out. That route has better odds.
I disagree that your odds are better with the Snell helmet, even though I presently own one.
For the record, the problem I had with their testing was that multiple impacts were done in different locations on one helmet. That can't be good, especially in fiberglass helmets. The integrity of the shell was undoubtedly damaged in the first impact. Imagine a bridge without some of its load-bearing supports. That's what a fiberglass shell is like when part is already damaged. The load cannot be spread through the rest of the shell as effectively.
I wrecked last year and slid into a curb. The back of my Shoei Z-II smacked against the curb with enough force to not only send cracks through the EPS liner (as it absorbed energy) but also to make a large area of paintsimply dissapear from impact damage. I'll take my SNELL helmet over DOT only any day.
I'll take my Snell helmet over a DOT helmet any day, too. The biggest reason is that at least I know the Snell helmet has been tested. Snell is a testing regime, and whether or not the standards are flawed, at least I know the helmet conforms to the standards. DOT is a standard body, but little to no testing is done. Manufacturers certify that they are following DOT standards, and they get to slap the sticker on. The DOT spots tests some helmets, but not many, and mostly beanie-type helmets and not full face helmets. So who knows if that DOT helmet your trusting is really up to the standard or not?
Quote from: ajgs500 on June 08, 2006, 11:22:46 AM
I think we should hear replies from people who have actually crashed tested helmets.
Anecdotal evidence is not the same as statistics. There are always exceptions (and they'll always speak up!).
Quote from: aaronstj on June 12, 2006, 02:19:40 PM
I'll take my Snell helmet over a DOT helmet any day, too. The biggest reason is that at least I know the Snell helmet has been tested. Snell is a testing regime, and whether or not the standards are flawed, at least I know the helmet conforms to the standards. DOT is a standard body, but little to no testing is done. Manufacturers certify that they are following DOT standards, and they get to slap the sticker on.
FACTS:
1) The Motorcyclist review in question was based on testing, not stickers.
2) The helmet with the best brain protection in a typical accident was a DOT helmet (Z1R Strike).
What's not to understand about either of those?
I do understand that Snell rated helmets offer better protection in some situations. But I also understand that in MOST situations, the Z1R is better.
I don't play the lottery or slot machines, either (same principle). In most situations, the casino (or state) takes your money. Once in a while, someone wins money, keeping the math-challenged at the casino or lottery line. And that person who wins is now a believer in gambling, whether it's logical or not.
In my case (at age 49) I can't gamble with brain deceleration the way some of you youngsters can. I'm still riding with my HJC CL-10 until I get Z1R, but I'm shopping.
I z1r I own (strike)...is freaking heavy..and like 8 times the size of my head...even the extra small did not fit as well as my exo...theres more to having a helmet potect you than design. Plus, the visor fogged up constantly, it was horribly loud, some of my vents broke. I've had that helmet for two years and logged alot of miles with it, including winter riding. Would I recommend that helmet to someone whos a noob and highly likely to wreck at low speeds? Yep How bout for a someone learning to stunt in a parking lot? Yep...but for a rider who pushes it in the twisties? No way...