Same as before: Please ask any questions you'd like :)
Hey Guys and Gals,
I've been thinking of making a thread with questions and answer to anything related to Islam. It seems like after 9/11 there has been a lot of misinformation and misunderstandings about islam and hopefully this will help alleviate some of that. So ask away...i'll try my best to answer
Some people have a misconception that there is a difference between muslim and islam.
It is my understanding that a muslim is someone who worships the Islamic religion. If I am wrong, then I have been wrong for 13 years or so.
Clear that up, and we'll go from there. Thanks!
Hey Jake,
Hehe....you are correct. Islam is the name of the religion and a muslim is one who is part of that religion. Islam is to Christianity as a muslim is to a Christian 8)
Muslims and Jesus are homeboys, but Jesus isnt Islams number one HOME BOY?
Why doesn't the Islamic community take actions to seriously denounce terrorism associated with their religion?
If i was associated with a bunch of people who were doing terrible things, i would be ashamed and single them out and not simply keep on shoving it off and saying "oh well, its just a few extremists".
That is a damn good question, Mike_mike.
Ok I have a some real questions about Islam. I am not joking here I really want to know. Since I dont have a copy of the Koran(sp?), what are the pretenses that justify a jihad and is treating women as 2nd class citizens something koran based or doesn it have more cultural implications??
Ajgs500
+1
Sorry, I'm not a neutral party anymore.
Very Valid Question Mike_Mike:
Let me give some background info on this...it might help.
The people who were responsible for September 11 were well known wahhabis. The whole phenomena of wahhabiism started about 150 years ago in the 1850's right as the Ottoman Empire was starting to break apart. The wahhabis were funded by the british empire at that time to take over the area of Saudi Arabia; this was a move to weaken the ottoman empire which was a rival to the british empires power. The Wahhabis took over Arabia once, they were driven out by the ottomans but a few years later they regrouped and took over Arabia for good.
During the takeover they stormed Makkeh (Islam's holiest city) and slaughtered a good number of people. Then they began to demolish shrines and Islamic holy places. After that they began a systemic program of assassinating anyone they deemed a threat. They have been ruling in this way till now. Killings, beatings, and torture has become a way of life in Saudi Arabia. Even today the US continues to support Saudi Arabia and has military inside the country to protect it. The reason they do this is because of oil (I believe). Most of the hijackers were in fact Saudis of wahhabi persuasion from what I have read.
The next big wahhabi group that popped up was the Taliban. These were pretty much of the same cloth as the Saudis. They believe in a very strict, very literal interpretation of Islam (If you wish to call what they practice Islam). Anyways they've been killing and destroying for the last 20 years as well. Massacres have been ongoing and there has been so much it's really gotten to be normal news for muslims. Even worse the average muslim knows that the Taliban was set up, funded, and even trained by the CIA to fight against the soviets. So in reality most muslims see the wahhabis/taliban as a British/US funded, trained, and supported group that is hell-bent of killing normal muslims and destroying any historical/religious monuments they can find.
Most muslims are angry that one, the British funded these fools to begin with and two the US has been supporting them to this date. The real reason is of course political power and money; nobody actually cares about religion. They were funded initially to destroy the Ottoman empire and consolidate British power and today they are a tool which the US used to fight against the Soviets and consolidate OIL power. The real question: is it necessary to really dissociate yourself from a group who has been slaughtering your people for almost a century and a half? Is that really necessary when you've done nothing to be associated with this group?
Ok I have a some real questions about Islam. I am not joking here I really want to know. Since I dont have a copy of the Koran(sp?), what are the pretenses that justify a jihad and is treating women as 2nd class citizens something koran based or doesn it have more cultural implications??
This was a question asked by Wild Blue on Heaven and Hell
First off let me give a brief intro and then I'll answer the question. Islam believes in a succession of messengers from the earliest time of man till now. We believe that as mankind grew more advanced in logic and thinking a more advanced form of religion was needed. And so god would send a new message along with a new messenger. To date there have been 124,000 prophets. Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Buddha, Jonas, John the Baptist...etc Some were major messengers whose message spread to continents and others were smaller whose message perhaps reached a small city.
So as people grew in their understanding of the world and they began to comprehend things better a new message would be sent to complement the previous one. Not only as a complement but usually the previous message would be weakened because of changes in the text and practices. So each religion would strengthen the last and build upon its foundations.
Now with this in mind what does Islam believe about the fate of the people of different religions? Here is a verse from the Quran written 1400 years ago:
5:69 Those who believe (Muslims), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day (Day of Judgement), and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Based on this verse anyone who believes in God and practices good deeds will most probably have a good end. Just believing is not enough and it must be coupled with action. Any good they do they will get rewarded for. Of course Muslims believe that there is a short way to get somewhere and a long way. The short way is naturally best . But if someone doesn't know and say they choose the longer way then they will still reach the correct destination. Naturally a just god would reward them for reaching the correct destination; he wouldn't punish them just because they failed to take a specific life route.
If anyone else has any questions please do tell Cool Thumbsup
Ok I have a some real questions about Islam. I am not joking here I really want to know. Since I dont have a copy of the Koran(sp?), what are the pretenses that justify a jihad and is treating women as 2nd class citizens something koran based or doesn it have more cultural implications??
*Trumpet noises* I think AJ has a question. *more lous obnoxious noises*
Yes. Go ahead Banner...you posted this thread as a place to ask questions. You seem to have some answers to give. I'm curious as to what the answer is myself. Lets not ignore the questions you asked for...
I'll in with what I know/have learned, but I can't claim it's 100%. The treatment of women in Muslim society seems to be based a complex blend of both society and the Qur'an. There's arguments on both sides, and there appears to even be considerable disagreement within Muslim society itself. Many verses in the Qur'an state that men an women are "equal before God" or "equal as believers". But other passages of the Qur'an clearly set up differences between men and women. For example:
Quote"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)." Qur'an 4:34
This is one of the most controversial verses i nthe Qur'an, and comes across pretty clearly as treating women, like AJ said, as second class citizens. But I think it's important to point out that this is an attitude that's also reflected in the Bible.
Another interesting point, and an important one, I feel, is that many scholars argue that at the time, the treatment of women in Arabia was abysmal, and Islam actually did a lot to liberate women. However, gender equality has obviously come a long way since the 7th century, and many argue that Islam has pointedly failed to keep up.
Although I appreciate your response, aaronstj, I still would like banner to answer my questions. :thumb:
To expand on banner's answer to Mike_mike, it's important to realize that Muslim groups who have spoken against terrorism have tended to recieve little attention from mainstream US media. The strongest Muslim groups in North America have all issues repudiations of terrorism, as have the Islamic scholars at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the center of Islamic learning in the world. In addition, a number of influential Muslim scholars and leaders have repudiated terrorism (some under international pressure, but others more freely). I've got a list at the end of one of my old books, I'll look it up later. You may have noticed that this hasn't seemed to stop anyone. Islam, much like Christianity, can interpreted in so many ways that it is used to justify terrorism regardless of what the major leaders may say.
As for Aj's question, I can't do it proper justice now since I need to make dinner and its a very complex problem. The society Islam replaced in Arabia was strongly paternalistic and Islam itself was incredibly uplifting to women at the time. It was, of course, nothing near the (near) equality that women in America enjoy today, but it was a large step forward. The precedent that Muhammad set has since been viewed differently as various people have seen fit, and unsurprisingly some men have sought justification in the Qur'an for keeping women in an inferior position. The hijab (headscarf) is often seen as a symbol of male oppression by people in the west, but in the early years of Islam only Muhammad's wives wore headscarves. Since then it has been various interpreted as a mandate to all women, and by women themselves as a resistance to secular culture. It is only one facet of the oppression of women under many Islamic societies, but it illustrates the complexity in dealing with such questions. I don't want to come off an apologist for Islam because it certainly has many issues to address, but I do like to help people understand that Islamic societies, like all societies, encompass a variety of opinions which aren't always well represented. Anyway I'll let banner handle the rest.
BTW banner, what's your background in Islamic issues?
Thanks for your response Unnamed! Still waiting on Banners.
its a complex issue AJ...give banner time...
Ok, Pablo. I thought he wasnt answering my question because I am a hate mongering racist.
never thought of you as a racist....
but she is definately a hate mongerer
Well me neither but I have recently been accused of being a racist...... :dunno_white:
regarding the Taliban statement:................"and today they are a tool which the US used to fight against the Soviets and consolidate OIL power"
Yes, the CIA did train and arm the Taliban to fight the soviets, but not for oil. They did so to help the Taliban to fight against the soviets when they invaded Afghanistan!!!
Yes we do support the Saudi's regarding oil. Is there a problem with that? If so, who SHOULD we support for our oil?
I thought you were going to inform us on Islamic religion. I didnt expect a political commentary.
I have a question for you. Why are muslims taught in school to hate jews and american- infandels?
Just an FYI... You're not racist if you hate someone because of their religion... It just means you're religious.
Quote from: Chris2P on July 06, 2006, 05:17:53 PM
regarding the Taliban statement:................"and today they are a tool which the US used to fight against the Soviets and consolidate OIL power"
Yes, the CIA did train and arm the Taliban to fight the soviets, but not for oil. They did so to help the Taliban to fight against the soviets when they invaded Afghanistan!!!
Yes we do support the Saudi's regarding oil. Is there a problem with that? If so, who SHOULD we support for our oil?
I thought you were going to inform us on Islamic religion. I didnt expect a political commentary.
I have a question for you. Why are muslims taught in school to hate jews and american- infandels?
Can we please ignore this post? Aside from the logical fallacy of begging the question, its designed to turn this thread into a flame war instead of a reasonable discussion of an important topic.
Yup exactly what I thought would happen THE FIRST TIME!!!
Discussions do NOT have to turn into hate-filled diatribes with name-calling, etc. Even debates arguing opposite sides can be civil when people CHOOSE for them to be so. Where's john and his fishing pics? :icon_rolleyes: :icon_razz:
Have you ever seen a civil debate here??? :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes:
hehe..hang on guys...let me get done with work and i'll answer.
But i'll have to say i really liked the posts by aaronstj and Unnamed. I'll post my view on things pretty soon :kiss3:
What really strikes me though is that we as a people have so many similiar interests and drives and yet people try to find ways to distance and divide themselves.
I propose a test: Give a Suzuki GS to some kid in Iraq, another to a kid in China, and another to a kid in the US and then see if they won't ride together for years without problems. Life can be so simple.. :cheers:
Let me guess...you're against the war in Iraq......
AJ....why would a man waste his time answering a question by a second class citizen
and i'm shure the ghey thing might make you a 4th class citizen....stone to death thing :o
just jokin'
:icon_mrgreen:
Dont forget that Im a racist too. :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :laugh: :laugh:
OK Banner,
what is the Islamic view on GHEY?
tolerate it or not?
Quote from: banner on July 06, 2006, 01:15:34 PM
... It seems like after 9/11 there has been a lot of misinformation and misunderstandings about islam and hopefully this will help alleviate some of that. So ask away...i'll try my best to answer
Quote from: banner on July 06, 2006, 07:12:28 PM
hehe..hang on guys...let me get done with work and i'll answer.
But i'll have to say i really liked the posts by aaronstj and Unnamed. I'll post my view on things pretty soon...
what do you mean
your VIEW? I thought you were going to give answers, not opinions....WTF?
I'd like to add a point here from what i think is a unique perspective. It may not be related to the specific questions being asked, but i think it is valid none the less.
I live in Canada. Our country has had a huge influx of east indian folk move here recently, not to say they're all islamic, but a good number of them are. Toronto is a unique city in that many nationalities move here, and basicly retain most of their cultural identity, and if you move to the right area, you may not ever have to speak english. This presents kind of a special oppourtunity to canadian born toronto citizens... we kind of get a glimpse of the mindset and cultural differences of other cultures.
I can undestand how it is easy to say things like "all islamic people are terrorists!!!" or something silly like that, which is obviously false. Unfortunately, in my opinion, there is a knowledge gap when it comes to understanding non-north-american cultures. Before you can even begin to debate islamic issues, you really need to understand a wide variety of things you just can't read in a text book.
With globalization and whatnot, it is becomming increasingly important that we stop assuming 'well everyone is kind of like us in north america.. we're all human, what does it matter the color of your skin, where you were born, and so on?' Further could be far from the truth, expecially something that's so engrained in culture like islamic issues. As the poster who responed to my question illusrated, the answers to basic questions are complex due to cultural diffrences.
To kind of tie this in with my original comment on living in Canada... i've been going to school now for 3 years in an area that has more new canadians (canada's term for immigrants) than almost anywhere else in canada (malvern community, scarbrough 4/5 are visible minorities). Even working with folks from middle eastern cultures for several years now i'm only now beginning to fully understand some of the cultural differences.
edit: typo
well said :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Quote from: pantablo on July 06, 2006, 07:37:28 PM
Quote from: banner on July 06, 2006, 01:15:34 PM
... It seems like after 9/11 there has been a lot of misinformation and misunderstandings about islam and hopefully this will help alleviate some of that. So ask away...i'll try my best to answer
Quote from: banner on July 06, 2006, 07:12:28 PM
hehe..hang on guys...let me get done with work and i'll answer.
But i'll have to say i really liked the posts by aaronstj and Unnamed. I'll post my view on things pretty soon...
what do you mean your VIEW? I thought you were going to give answers, not opinions....WTF?
well Pablo, not that I give a rats ass one way or another... and just for being the devil's advocate.
Can anyone besides the author say what the true meaning of any literary work is? Christians can't agree on what view of the bible to take...
...."its designed to turn this thread into a flame war instead of a reasonable discussion of an important topic."
Whoa there. How are my questions a flame?
I was responding to Banners comments regarding US involvment with the Taliban. Our CIA did in fact train the Taliban to fight the soviets when they invaded Afghanistan. It had nothing to do with oil, but a fear of the spread of communism.
Another fact: In Saudi Arabia grammar schools, they do teach to hate jews and americans. And supposedly they are using scriptures from the Kuran to support this. This was a 60 minutes investigation about 6 months ago.
Another fact: The Saudies have had US support since the late 1950's or earlier ( I believe ). And according to Noam Chomsky (a nobel prize winner in linguistics and political commentarian) there was a congressional hearing back in in mid -1950's that concluded that the best governmental entity for the middle east to supply us with oil was NOT a democrat government but a totalitarian organization which we have supported to this date. Thus many years of hatred towards the US in supporting a suppressive regime.
Let's cut to the chase, the reason for the interest in Islamic religion is due to the current state of affairs after 9-11.
I would like to know specifically what the Koran states regarding Jews and "infandels". And from everything I hear in the news, I am an "infandel" because I was born in this country. Maybe this is a bunch of crap but I would like to hear the facts from a muslim. I guess this isnt a "reasonable discussion" on an important topic?
PS: No I'm not anit Muslim, no I am not a die hard "US is right in everthing, and no I'm not trying to flame this thread. I think these are valid questions based upon what is presented in the news.
Also, I would like to know what the religious elephant statue symbolizes, but that may be Hinduism?
Chris
Islam is soooooo 2001. Lets talk about North Korea instead.
politics and religion.....
good way to stir up a SH!T STORM
Quote from: ajgs500 on July 06, 2006, 08:15:56 PM
Islam is soooooo 2001. Lets talk about North Korea instead.
f%$king Koreans... Oh wait...
.................."Our country has had a huge influx of east indian folk move here recently"
Mike mike, I thought people from India are hindus, right? Different religion. And that Muslims originate from the middle east and the religion migrated into africa. I had a conversation with a black man from africa who told me that although alot of africans are christians(spread through the influence of catholic missionaries), an almost equal amount of africans are muslim which spread from the middle east
Chris
Okay heres the answer to the women and Islam Question :)
Every culture has its differences and the key to understanding a different culture is to look at it with open eyes, unadulterated with any "cultural filters". As someone who has been raised here all of my life I have to try to see other cultures and religions with open eyes; its difficult to not mentally ridicule everything we see that is different than what we know and have been used to all our lives.
The First thing to understand about Islam is the integral belief that god is Absolutely Just. He would never create injustice towards women or men. If any injustice is seen in a society or by the practitioners of a religion it is most probably separate from the true spirit of the religion. In ANY society it is so. It has most probably been created by people and most definitely not by god.
Islam views men and women as two completely equal individuals. Yet it's very apparent to us that men and women are not the same in equal ways. For example one is physically stronger. Another is able to bear children. Another is less emotionally sensitive while the other is more so. It's very obvious that they are not equal in a "split down the line" way. So how am I saying they are equal as individuals in Islam? They are equal if looked at in the whole scheme of things. One has more rights in a certain area that complements who they are while another has less rights in a certain area where it may benefit it them. It doesn't make sense for two individuals to split things down the line while they have completely different needs and wants. Yet these are two beings created by god as equals at the end of the day. Anyone who claims a woman has less rights than a man or that a man has less rights than a women is claiming that god is unjust and this would go against the base doctrine of any religion.
I'll give examples: In islam a man is required by religious law to provide anything his wife needs as far as money, clothes, a comfortable home, a car...etc. It is his duty to provide as best as he can and if he doesn't he's actually failed in his religious duty. As in he has sinned! Islamically the women isn't required to lift a finger to wash dishes...vacuum, take care of the kids...etc. She can if she wants, but that's upto her. Of course normally both people chip in as best as they can but we're speaking specific rights. On the flipside it's the husbands right to have to upto 4 wives if he wants (can handle without hurting himself or going crazy). Apart from this he doesn't have really any rights over his wife. Frankly it seems like the woman gets the better end of the deal but having to deal with childbirth, menopause...etc pretty much settles the score.
The right to vote, to own property, to choose their own life partner were all given to women more than 1400 years ago and practiced. This is the reality of Islamic Law.
As to the question on who can interpret a text its much easier in Islam than in other religions. We only have 2 main sects and even these two sects agree on almost everything except one small issue. An outsider looking at these two sects would think that they were the same. So unlike Christianity where you have so many different beliefs and sects we don't have that problem so much. I would wager a guess that 80-90 percent of muslims agree on about 95% of religious issues. That's where the authority of interpretation comes from.
Quote from: Chris2P on July 06, 2006, 08:20:50 PM
.................."Our country has had a huge influx of east indian folk move here recently"
Mike mike, I thought people from India are hindus, right? Different religion. And that Muslims originate from the middle east and the religion migrated into africa. I had a conversation with a black man from africa who told me that although alot of africans are christians(spread through the influence of catholic missionaries), an almost equal amount of africans are muslim which spread from the middle east
Chris
yeah you are correct.. maybe my comment was a little off. Frankly we have a lot of folks from everywhere in that area, and i'm still admitiately a little flakey on my geography.
......"Lets talk about North Korea instead."
Well the Clinton administration sold nuclear technology to the North Koreans. They were suppose to build energy plants with the technology but decided to build missiles instead. Supposedly from a satlelite image, only the capital of North Korea is lit at night. No where else in the country has electricity. If you want my opinion, an embargo on North Korea is the wrong move. How desperate do you need to be to develop nuclear weapons when your people are starving. We should have a more open dialogue with them. Just my opinion.
Nah, I'm more interested in the middle east. My suspiscion is that a lot more has happened there than what has been reported. 9-11 didnt happen on a whim. Alot of stuff has been bottled up for a while.......me thinks.
Chris
...."In islam a man is required by religious law to provide anything his wife needs as far as money, clothes, a comfortable home, a car...etc. It is his duty to provide as best as he can and if he doesn't he's actually failed in his religious duty. As in he has sinned!".......
I think my wife would all heartledly agree with that :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Chris
..........."Most of the hijackers were in fact Saudis of wahhabi persuasion from what I have read."...............
Banner,
I have heard of that from many news sources as well. In fact, there was a congressional hearing maybe about 6 months ago that had evidence that the Saudi embassey, IN THE USA, was giving out anti-american literature, in the US, written in the arabic language. This is the same Saudi government that is so close to the Bush's and other oil investors here in the US.
Chris
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f14/catchaj19/2629195036.jpg)
Banner,
I've got one.
What's with people going all "Holy War"? I mean i don't know much about Islam, but I'm pretty sure God said to everybody, "Thou Shalt Not Kill." or something similar.
Wouldn't that make all wars unholy?
not if you're doing God's work.
Islamically there is no such thing as holy war. We don't have any phrase in arabic that says holy war...lol
The only permissible way to wage war is self-defense. Even then civilians, crops, and non-military targets are off limits.
As to the Saudi thing...hehe yeah. Me thinks there are some issues to resolve :laugh: :laugh:
Well it seems like they arent following their own rules :dunno_white: :dunno_white: :dunno_white: :dunno_white:
basically i say again what i said in the first thread . but ill condense it. if you want to have some idea about a religion, muslim christian judaism moromon whatever, juist read their "holy book" and if you can ask several people who are if the particular religion theyr views. :dunno_white:
I honestly don't think thats valid bro. The average person is usually very ignorant about their religion, be they jew, christian, hindu, or muslim. I could read the bible and ask 4 christians and i would get no where. I think a better approach would be to indepthly study a religion using that religions sources and then take that farther by speaking with a well versed scholar (or two or three). That would give me a good feel for a religion!
Would you consider Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Oral Roberts well versed Christian Scholars???? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Is it just me or does Oral Roberts sound like a porn name????
Oral Roberts is the man.
I think there is a lot of truth in what banner is saying. It is my belief that 9/11 happened because we are on Saudi soil in the first place. It could also be said that we invaded Iraq so we could get out of Saudi Arabia (and have somplace to go, ie., a democratic ally in the Middle East). These are two very broad statements, but there are underpinnings for these theories in everything that has been said so far.
AJ, if you don't like this thread, quit reading it. Please.
How did ever said I didnt like this thread??? I am a little miffed about why my perfectly valid questions were never answered by the thread starter who claimed to try and answer questions on Islam. :dunno_white: :dunno_white: Terrorists are just crazy. We thinking with our western mindset and cultural values will never be able to completely understand their motivations and theos. Although loss of life of innocents is completely horrible, the terrorist's plan was brilliant.
Quote from: ajgs500 on July 06, 2006, 09:52:27 PM
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f14/catchaj19/2629195036.jpg)
And he tried to answer your question.
Quote from: Jake D on July 07, 2006, 11:24:07 AM
Quote from: ajgs500 on July 06, 2006, 09:52:27 PM
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f14/catchaj19/2629195036.jpg)
And he tried to answer your question.
Where???? Show me, I dont see an answer anywhere to my questions.
Quote from: banner on July 06, 2006, 08:24:56 PM
Okay heres the answer to the women and Islam Question :)
Every culture has its differences and the key to understanding a different culture is to look at it with open eyes, unadulterated with any "cultural filters". As someone who has been raised here all of my life I have to try to see other cultures and religions with open eyes; its difficult to not mentally ridicule everything we see that is different than what we know and have been used to all our lives.
The First thing to understand about Islam is the integral belief that god is Absolutely Just. He would never create injustice towards women or men. If any injustice is seen in a society or by the practitioners of a religion it is most probably separate from the true spirit of the religion. In ANY society it is so. It has most probably been created by people and most definitely not by god.
Islam views men and women as two completely equal individuals. Yet it's very apparent to us that men and women are not the same in equal ways. For example one is physically stronger. Another is able to bear children. Another is less emotionally sensitive while the other is more so. It's very obvious that they are not equal in a "split down the line" way. So how am I saying they are equal as individuals in Islam? They are equal if looked at in the whole scheme of things. One has more rights in a certain area that complements who they are while another has less rights in a certain area where it may benefit it them. It doesn't make sense for two individuals to split things down the line while they have completely different needs and wants. Yet these are two beings created by god as equals at the end of the day. Anyone who claims a woman has less rights than a man or that a man has less rights than a women is claiming that god is unjust and this would go against the base doctrine of any religion.
I'll give examples: In islam a man is required by religious law to provide anything his wife needs as far as money, clothes, a comfortable home, a car...etc. It is his duty to provide as best as he can and if he doesn't he's actually failed in his religious duty. As in he has sinned! Islamically the women isn't required to lift a finger to wash dishes...vacuum, take care of the kids...etc. She can if she wants, but that's upto her. Of course normally both people chip in as best as they can but we're speaking specific rights. On the flipside it's the husbands right to have to upto 4 wives if he wants (can handle without hurting himself or going crazy). Apart from this he doesn't have really any rights over his wife. Frankly it seems like the woman gets the better end of the deal but having to deal with childbirth, menopause...etc pretty much settles the score.
The right to vote, to own property, to choose their own life partner were all given to women more than 1400 years ago and practiced. This is the reality of Islamic Law.
As to the question on who can interpret a text its much easier in Islam than in other religions. We only have 2 main sects and even these two sects agree on almost everything except one small issue. An outsider looking at these two sects would think that they were the same. So unlike Christianity where you have so many different beliefs and sects we don't have that problem so much. I would wager a guess that 80-90 percent of muslims agree on about 95% of religious issues. That's where the authority of interpretation comes from.
Ok banner doesnt answer questions well. I wanted specific documentation from the Koran. Or some other reputable source. ie journal article, etc. Sorry I have a higher standard.
Quote from: ajgs500 on July 07, 2006, 11:45:35 AM
Ok banner doesnt answer questions well. I wanted specific documentation from the Koran. Or some other reputable source. ie journal article, etc. Sorry I have a higher standard.
Quote from: banner on July 06, 2006, 01:15:34 PM
So ask away...i'll try my best to answer
:bs:
He never promised perfection or great scholarly works. He said he'd do his best, and I think he's tried hard, despite being picked on since the second he first posted.
Now...who was it that said this sort of information could be found in libraries... ?
That's asking a lot. Since never said he would try to show you specific documentation from the koran. He said he'd try to answer you questions. You can't make the rules here. You have to play by someone elses rule. And he did answer your question so ask another or. . .
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/jaked1166/STFU.jpg)
Yeah I guess I will have to go to the damn library cause his answering ability sucks or my questions are too hard. And to include specific's from the Koran was a part of my question.
I'm still trying to figure out why we're talking about religion on a motorcycle forum.... :dunno_white:
I'm sorry but I've never been a fan of religious debates...and yes I know, if I don't like then don't read it blah blah blah.
:2guns:
Quote from: Jake D on July 07, 2006, 11:53:37 AM
That's asking a lot. Since never said he would try to show you specific documentation from the koran. He said he'd try to answer you questions. You can't make the rules here. You have to play by someone elses rule. And he did answer your question so ask another or. . .
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/jaked1166/STFU.jpg)
owwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry, but that puppy in the picture is so damn funny. Look at those eyes.
Ok I have another question.... Why in Islamic societies does democracy have such a hard time being an effective form of government???
:bowdown: :bowdown:
Too many parties. Too many factions. It is like Ross Perot taking votes away from the Democrats, except there is like 10 Ross Perots.
If you want verses from the quran i can supply those too but the thing about Islam is that the have two bodies of law. One is the quran and the other is the Hadiths. The hadiths are more precise and specific about rules while the quran is broad and statest he general laws and theories. I'll see what i can find in the Quran and hadiths and post those as well.
BTW its a beautiful friday here in SD...
Ride easy :)
Quote from: ajgs500 on July 07, 2006, 12:14:47 PMWhy in Islamic societies does democracy have such a hard time being an effective form of government???
It's not limited to Islamic countries. Any country that has vastly differing groups will have problems, especially when one is much smaller than the others.
In the US, it may seem like we're all VASTY different, but we aren't. There are groups that want to eliminate freedom of religion, speech, press, etc, but for the most part our country wants to keep these things... Think back to the US before the human rights movement. That's basically what some countries are going through. Our country made laws that made blacks 3rd class citizens. AND they couldn't vote, so there was no way to change the system by using the system.
It's the same exact thing. Each group has their own agenda and the hate runs deep between each group... So, the biggest group wins and the smallest group has NO rights.
Once equality can be worked out to a point of at least 45/55 (or 30/30/40), the system can work a little better... When a country is deeply divided by hate, it WILL fail... The smaller group WILL be persecuted.
Seems obvious to me. But I am a political scientist. And the paper on my wall does say "Juris Doctor" on it. But I'm not muslim, so I'll defer to banner anyway.
Quote from: banner on July 06, 2006, 11:41:45 PM
Islamically there is no such thing as holy war. We don't have any phrase in arabic that says holy war...lol
The only permissible way to wage war is self-defense. Even then civilians, crops, and non-military targets are off limits.
As to the Saudi thing...hehe yeah. Me thinks there are some issues to resolve :laugh: :laugh:
You're technically right, but war in "self defense" can be variously interpreted to mean a lot of things. Is it self defense if someone invades you? Of course. Is it self defense if they're preparing to invade you? Probably. Is it self defense if they *might* be planning to invade you? Not really, but if you're wrong then you're kinda screwed. You keep going and eventually you'll find people who consider it self defense to fight against the influx of foreign ideals and influence. Thus, despite the Qur'anic prohibition on offensive war, you'll always find people willing to consider war for "self defense". You must also recall that Muhammad's battles were not totally defensive. Just playing devil's advocate.
Back to the original question, perhaps you're referring to the doctrine of jihad which recieves so much press? Jihad itself has two aspects, a major and a minor. The major struggle is the challenge laid upon each person to be as faithful and as upright as possible. The lesser jihad is war. Both are considered holy struggles, but Muhammad himself instructed that war is less holy than the everyday battle to be a good Muslim. Like other doctrines of faith, this has been upended by violent people for their own ends.
Also, I'd like to expand on banner's Women answer, because I feel that it sounds a bit like an apologetic answer. The key to helping people understand is not to convince them that Islam is all good, because of course this is inaccurate. Rather, I think its more important to have a full and open dialogue where the faults of Islam (or rather, the practice of Islam) are laid out and addressed. If I'm misrepresenting what you wrote, I apologize. The treatment of women is an issue, and one that I have questions about as well. Mine centers around the women's place in worship. According to the Qur'an, everyone should be equal under God. For this reason the early practice of Islam kept all worshippers on the same level and did not give preference to anyone. Somewhere between then and now, this ideal has been corrupted. The Saudis (who I use as an example, not as the norm), keep men and women isloated during services. Women don't lead prayer. Ever. Even in North America it is a news-worthy event when a woman leads prayer which can provoke protests (see Amina Wadud's effort in New York in 2005).
I see the separation of men and women as an issue that Muslims still need to work on addressing. I know that it is justified by the logic that a woman leading prayers can inspire lust in men, however its a pretty poor solution to keep them totally separated. I don't think its integral to Islam that women be restrained as such, in fact I see it as a corruption. However, it still must be dealt with.
Also AJ, as you might guess, Muslims don't tend to be down with teh gheys. The interesting thing is that absolutely no one talks about it. A book from a professor of mine (Omid Safi) called Progressive Muslims is the only one I know of to include a chapter on the treatment of homosexuals under Islamic systems. He has an anecdote about trying to publish the book in Saudi Arabia at the request of a Saudi princess, who said she loved the book but wanted him to remove that chapter. It seems to me that ghey issues aren't even going to enter into the public consciousness for a while in most of the Islamic world.
Why defer? You know it's not Islam specifically... It's just what group isolationism (aka hate) does to government.
Rvertigo...that is true:
One point of frustration amoung many muslims that i know is a feeling of the US holding back their political development in because of political control and oil. For example Egypt, one of the most oppressive countries out there is the 2nd largest recipient of US foreign aid. Hosni Mubarak (egypts "president") is pretty much a dictatorial king and hes not going anywhere. Mostly because of this foreign aid egyptians have been unable to form their own form of government. And they are kinda angry about it because they feel the US is holding them back from what they could be. While not all the blame can be placed on one party in this case, much of it justifiably can.
I personally think if these countries were left alone they would naturally form more democratic governments; its a very natural form of progression :)
Comments?
Quote from: banner on July 07, 2006, 01:58:22 PM
Rvertigo...that is true:
One point of frustration amoung many muslims that i know is a feeling of the US holding back their political development in because of political control and oil. For example Egypt, one of the most oppressive countries out there is the 2nd largest recipient of US foreign aid. Hosni Mubarak (egypts "president") is pretty much a dictatorial king and hes not going anywhere. Mostly because of this foreign aid egyptians have been unable to form their own form of government. And they are kinda angry about it because they feel the US is holding them back from what they could be. While not all the blame can be placed on one party in this case, much of it justifiably can.
I personally think if these countries were left alone they would naturally form more democratic governments; its a very natural form of progression :)
Comments?
This is going to get very wild very fast. Just let me mention that it sure ain't just Muslims who feel this way. Please open your books to "Columbia", "Brazil", "Ecuador", "Panama", and many many more.
To bro Unnamed:
Hmm...i dont' think i was being apologetic actually. This is what i have been taught by Islamic Scholars and its what i'll have to uphold. If actual muslims aren't following (as is the case with any religion) i shouldn't have to accomadate them, i'm only speaking about what islam says. Even more specifically the Saudi "Islam" is really the furthest thing from the teachings of Islam. Its impossible to find one verse in the Quran or one hadith that says women can't drive for example.. Purely a wahhabi phenomena (Saudi and Afgahanistan). So really i'm just trying to give back what i've been taught and the people who have taught me have been relatively representative of muslims as a whole. :)
LOL and i opened up my geography book but i couldn't seem to find Ecuador, Brazil or Panama. I can't figure out where they're located :laugh: :laugh:
Best wishes....i'm out to ride today :laugh:
bbl
Quote from: banner on July 07, 2006, 01:58:22 PMI personally think if these countries were left alone they would naturally form more democratic governments; its a very natural form of progression :)
Comments?
I agree if left alone
long enough... In the short term (20-50 years), I can't see that happening... The "growing pains" seen in the early USA (aka manifest destiny, aka genocide) is what I think would happen at first... When one group so deeply hates/fears/differs from/misunderstands another group, only one will stay in a given area. One group will either leave, be removed or killed, or be absorbed.
Lots of countries have, are, and will go through the exact same thing... Once the groups are equalized, then things will progress... When hate is so deep between two very large groups, nothing good can happen.
And... I (PERSONALLY) think the US Government should clean up it's own back yard before knocking on it's neighbor's doors. (In other words, I think we should leave other countries alone... In all ways except for trade... No funding, no troops, no food, no supplies... Nothing.)
Quote from: banner on July 07, 2006, 02:05:48 PMIf actual muslims aren't following (as is the case with any religion) i shouldn't have to accomadate them, i'm only speaking about what islam says. ... I feel my answers are representative of the majority of islamic scholars.
I'm pretty sure you're right, your answers do seem to be in line with mainstream Islamic opinion and with the Islamic commentaries from before 1100. What I'm trying to say is that "true Islam" is in the eye of the beholder, and you have to address the Wahhabist doctrines on their own grounds. Whether you like it or not, many people's view of Islam is the view espoused by Wahhabists. I'm sure you don't consider the Wahhabis to speak for all Muslims, but I think many Americans consider Wahhabism and Islam to be the same.
THank you Unnamed. :thumb:
:cheers:
Quote from: banner on July 07, 2006, 12:58:45 AM
I honestly don't think thats valid bro. The average person is usually very ignorant about their religion, be they jew, christian, hindu, or muslim. I could read the bible and ask 4 christians and i would get no where. I think a better approach would be to indepthly study a religion using that religions sources and then take that farther by speaking with a well versed scholar (or two or three). That would give me a good feel for a religion!
i know that. im not saying its the answer to a particular question in its entirety. but what i am saying was this. if you wanted to know something about judaism read the torah, christianity the bible, islam, the Qu'ran, and if your fortunate enough to be able to do so, track down some scholars in whichever one you want to know something about. lol perhaps i condensed it too much? lol :bowdown:
I have to agree with banner on this point. If you only read, for instance, the Qur'an, you miss out on the centuries of commentary which have defined the way in which Islam is practiced today. Similarly, reading the Bible isn't going to explain the debates in Christianity today. I think the holy books can give insights into the general structure of a religion, but in the centuries since they were written/ compiled they have been variously interpreted to mean a lot of different things. If you read through the Qur'an, you will find that it is very similar to the Bible. The message is effectively the same, but people have interpreted the details in a multitude of ways. Reading can help you understand a religion, but it doesn't get you very far.
Or perhaps I misread and you were saying something else. :dunno_white:
Ditto^
Religions are extremely complex, much more than the average man gives them credit for so it takes a lot of research and indepth thought to reach their core.
Does anyone have any specific questions i can answer? I think i've covered most bases. I just have one pending questions on Islams view on non-muslims which i'll answer shortly. Anything besides that
well i dont mean read the qu'ran and it only, but basically the holy books of each religion. fwiw each was writtin around its (the religion in question) core values. how someone was supposed to be. yeah through "interpretation" various translations etcc etc etc. things have changed basically if i ask a scholar of islam, christianity or whatever else, how do i know im getting the "correct answer"? not the interpreted one? :dunno_white:
first off, apologies for jumping into the discussion late. even worse, i only read the last page of posts! but i wanted to comment on something that jumped out at me:
Unnamed wrote:
"You're technically right, but war in "self defense" can be variously interpreted to mean a lot of things. Is it self defense if someone invades you? Of course. Is it self defense if they're preparing to invade you? Probably. Is it self defense if they *might* be planning to invade you? Not really, but if you're wrong then you're kinda screwed. You keep going and eventually you'll find people who consider it self defense to fight against the influx of foreign ideals and influence. Thus, despite the Qur'anic prohibition on offensive war, you'll always find people willing to consider war for "self defense". You must also recall that Muhammad's battles were not totally defensive. Just playing devil's advocate."
now, replace "despite the Qur'anic prohibition on offensive war" with anything relevant to jesus's teachings which many people in politics say they follow, and this paragraph is equally applicable to the united states. more so, even: we have a 'department of defense' which is really the department of war they renamed over 150 years ago.
one can't criticize other cultures and religions without also examining one's own. otherwise it becomes like a troubled marriage: your partner always starts the fights an you're completely innocent every time.
That was a point I was trying to make, although fairly subtly. I've found that conservative believers, of any variety, tend to have a lot of trouble accepting other cultures or belief systems. Whether its Osama, an Iranian mullah, or Pat Robertson, they all share a common intolerance of people unlike themselves. The thing I've found from learning about the Middle East is that once you really understand why someone is acting as they do, it makes you more conscious of the way your own country acts. The old proverb of walking a mile in someone else's shoes is absolutely critical for understanding the present conflict between (to use loaded terms) the "west" and the rest.
Quote from: che mike on July 09, 2006, 03:05:48 AMwe have a 'department of defense' which is really the department of war they renamed over 150 years ago.
Actuallly... It was only called the Department of War in times of war... They changed the name to the Department of Defense in a time of peace... They just didn't name it back to the Department of War.
Other than that, you're pretty much right... People have used "god" as an excuse for killing for longer than recorded history.
Quote from: pantablo on July 06, 2006, 07:37:28 PM
what do you mean your VIEW? I thought you were going to give answers, not opinions....WTF?
to come back to this after a little time off:
pantablo, i think you're being a little unfair here. these are sociological questions. i'm sure if you ask 10 different 'learned' persons these questions you'll get 10 answers. imagine you travel to another country that has little direct contact with americans. people ask you things like:
why are americans fat?
why are americans so ignorant of the world beyond their borders?
why is abortion such a big issue in the united states?
why do women in the US earn less than men?
now, can you give answers to these questions, or your view? if you were an expert on u.s. society, would you be able to give answers, or just an 'expert' view?