is it safe to go past the redline from time to time when i say past the redline i mean like 13,000rpm or will some thing explode and pistons fly threw your chest and so on
i want to now because i want to try and find the very top speed so far i have only been able to do 180 in 5th and it would be on about 11,000rpm so in 6th it would be doin about 9,000rpm
would i be able to say put a 15 tooth on the front and in 5th or 6th go past 180
I'm not sure...
But for our US friends... Just a friendly reminder... deathlucky is referring to KM instead of MPH. :)
Redlining over a short amount of time i don't think would be too stressful on the GS motor but over extended rides such as long dist trips and such, i'd say you wouldn't want to put that much strain on the motor like any engine.
hahahahahahahahaha i wish it would go 180mph but then i would need to do some thing about the wooble its gets when im going over 170 how do i get rid of that
yer but i wouldnt be doing it that offten just when im runnin late for work lol
If works only like 20min away or so go for it. If your riding for 2+ hours straight i'd say you'd greatly decrease the life of the engine. I wouldn't redline my motor personally that much. I mean you got 6 gears to go through, you don't really need to redline, just go up to the next gear :laugh:.
yer but im think put a 15 tooth on the front then i might be able to get et like 5 or 10 more km/h out of it
Quote from: deathlucky on July 08, 2006, 05:30:50 AM
yer but im think put a 15 tooth on the front then i might be able to get et like 5 or 10 more km/h out of it
use a 14 tooth. heres a thread http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=28026.0 discussing use of a 14 and you'll def get more of a difference out of a 14 than a 15t.
km are for those that cant count, metric sucks
Take an engineering or physics course and you'll wish the US used the metric system. (easier calculations) ;)
The valves start to float much over 10k RPM. The more they float, the less power you're going to make and the greater risk you run of damaging the valves. Because of the loss in power, I doubt you will be able to go much faster by running over redline. If you got some stiffer valve springs you could resolve this problem, but don't know if it's worth it.
Also, the GS has a fairly long stroke compaired to a super sport bike designed to rev that high, meaning the pistons need to cover a greater distance and therefore move faster than say a GSXR revving at 13.5K. Because of this, running over redline puts a lot of stress on the main and rod bearings, the crank, the rods, and the wrist pins.
Personally I wouldn't do it, there's really no point, and it's really not a good idea. Once in a while by mistake will be OK, but actually trying to run it past redline is not good.
There's an old m/c salesman saying, "If you want to go faster, get a faster bike".
impossible, valves don't float on the the gs.
Quote from: rangerbrown on July 08, 2006, 09:04:51 AM
impossible, valves don't float on the the gs.
This was sarcastic, no? This whole thread has been pretty entertaining.
-Turd.
[4
Wind it out. See what it'll do. What is there to lose?
i know there is a rev limiter on mine, ask me how i know
A couple times now, under hard acceleration, I screw up and miss a gear or something and my RPMs shoot up into the red zone for a second, and man I hate that sound... I don't normally go past 9k under normal driving conditions.
Quote from: deathlucky on July 08, 2006, 05:15:32 AM
would i be able to say put a 15 tooth on the front and in 5th or 6th go past 180
According to AlphaFire's post in his own Hahahahahahahahahahahaha - aka Impressions of a 14T sprocket (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=28026.msg299144#msg299144) thread, a 14T front sprocket will do 110 MPH (176 KPM). Don't know if he was limited mechanically or by his nerve.
(I'm surprised Alpha hasn't noticed & responded to this thread yet.)
i just want a 19 or 18 front but now one has them, what is the bigest for the front? I GUESS I WILL GO DOWN IN THE REAR damn caps i am not going to fix that, soo.
you ment to put that in caps so it looks sus ay lol
what is the highest rmp has ever take there bike up to i knw i have gone fairly high when i have shifted 1st to 2nd and it has sliped out of second and just one right up
Quote from: rangerbrown on July 08, 2006, 03:46:13 PM
i just want a 19 or 18 front but now one has them, what is the bigest for the front? I GUESS I WILL GO DOWN IN THE REAR damn caps i am not going to fix that, soo.
I haven't noticed anyone offering an 18 or 19 Tooth front sprocket. The tallest I've found is a 17, documented in my Adding a Tooth -- Going Up to a 17T Front Sprocket (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=21803.0) thread.
I've been very pleased with this change, but going up a tooth seems to be counter to the prevailing opinion.
Okay if your bike is wobbling then there is something amiss. I wouldn't ride it until i knew what it was. It could be tire pressure, something loose in the front end, maybe something loose in the chain adjustment area?. Please give the bike a good looking over.
:)
overrevving can gain you a couple of kliks an hr but i've spent a lot of dyno time with gs's and a stocker signs off making power BEFORE 10k(98-99rpm) so what's the point.
oh and i prolly overrev my racebike every race :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 08, 2006, 08:02:21 AM
Take an engineering or physics course and you'll wish the US used the metric system. (easier calculations) ;)
+1 on this... Mostly factors of 10. (maybe everything)
Quote from: annguyen1981 on July 08, 2006, 07:17:03 PM
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 08, 2006, 08:02:21 AM
Take an engineering or physics course and you'll wish the US used the metric system. (easier calculations) ;)
+1 on this... Mostly factors of 10. (maybe everything)
Totally agree. With the exception of fuel efficiency. I mean, who the heck prefers
Litres per 100 Km as a measurement? When I buy a litre of gas, I want to know how many kilometers I can go with it. I can't get my mind around why they want the inverse and scaled to 100 km. :cookoo:
Yeah its funny that they inversed the scale.
"Kilometers per litre"
hmmm, sounds wierd. But I guess it isn't used because the resulting fiure sounds too small.
28.5 kilometers per litre
or
3.5 Litres per 100km's
I think with litres being a smaller unit size than a gallon its easier to differentiate consumption when using Litres/100kms (once your used to it)
For example my 3.8L V6 Holden Commodore is averaging 11L/100kms where as my GS averages about 4L/100kms.
arrr stuff it i will just get a fireblade
Don't forget the life insurance.
And be sure that when you get it, you sing, "Yo ho, Yo ho, the pirate's bike for me."
stock GS to slow....get a BUSA
OK first dont over rev the engine. Valves do float and engine does get damaged.
Look at this dyno run of GS:
http://www.gstwin.com/dyno_run.htm
You can see that power goes downward after about 9200 rpm. So reving more than that will actualy make you go slower. When youare traveling in 6th gear 180 kmh @9000 rpm you are at your peak horsepower output and it wont go any faster. If you change to 15tooth sprocket you will go @ 9600 rpm at 180kmh and as you can see from chart you engine will make less power.
So the next time you see your bike in 6th @ 9200rpm, relax and understand that GS is giving all she got for you at that moment. Trashing it in 5th not only will it make you go slower but also damaging your engine.
Also looking at the chart you can see that top acceleration can be achieved shifting at 9600 rpm and droping down to about 8600 in new gear. The revs up untill 11000 are made for forgiving your shifting errors, not making more power.
And no there is no rev limiter on GS. ( Maybe because it is not EFI? Anyone heard of rev limiter on carbed bike? )
Quote from: domas on July 09, 2006, 08:06:15 AM
And no there is no rev limiter on GS. ( Maybe because it is not EFI? Anyone heard of rev limiter on carbed bike? )
Aside from a fuel-cut rev limiter that could be implimented with EFI, there are also ignition rev limiters. There are 2 kinds of ignition rev limters: soft and hard. A soft rev limiter will pull back ignition timing causing a loss in power to hopefully alert the driver to shift. A hard rev limiter will totally cut ignition (and/or fuel in the case of EFI) and thus preventing you from revving any higher. Generally, a soft rev limiter is placed before a hard rev limiter so if you keep on revving past the soft limiter, or hang out in the soft limiters RPM range for too long, a hard rev limiter will kick in forcing you to stop being a moron.
I kinda wonder if the 04+ has a rev limiter, the electronics are more 'with the times' so implimenting an ignition rev limiter wouldn't take much for Suzuki.
the 2004 up does, while ont he bed of the truck (when i was new at this stuff) i didnt see that the throttle was open because of the tie down strap.
i started it, and went right to red line and was bouncing back and forth, lasted 3 secs as i shut it down very quickly
Do you seriously think its safe to rev past the redline? Its there for a reason. Ever heard the term "Mechanical Sympathy"? When the GS engine was first designed and prototyped the designers in the office at Hammamatsu will have identified the maximum safe operating speed of the engine that doesnt compromise reliabilty and put a redline on the tacho to correspond with that speed. Its just common sense to me, you go past the redline, the valves bounce and the con-rods try to make a bid for freedom via the cylinder walls!! When you have a bath and you open the red tap up full do you have to ask someone if the water will be hot? Get real!!
The redline is the point where the engine stops producing usable power. Reving in the red zone will damage the engine, however the head gasket is usually the the first to go and is easily replaced. After that major damage is done to the piston rings, valves, and cylinder. If your bike needs a fresh rebuild - then rev away and ride it like its stolen.
Rev limiters only help decrease damage, but damage can still occur. Ask me how I know. 8)
The purpose of the redline is as Sledge stated: It is the maximum safe operating speed. Past this speed it has been determined that some part of the engine will become over stressed.
Page 590 of "The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice, Volume 2: Combustion, Fuels, Materials, Design" by Charles Fayette Taylor states the following: "In 4-stroke engines the maximum allowable piston speed is often limited by the valve-gear rather than by the crank-rod piston system."
This adds merit to what the racers on this site have to say about the GS engine above redline, mainly that the valves begin to interfere with the piston at about 11,500 to 12,000 RPM. It also appears that crankshaft failure is due to increased power output (possibly harmonics), not overspeed.
That said, the dyno run shows that there is little point in shifting much after 9k RPM. The only reason to be going past 9,500 RPM is if you run out of gears. ;)
ok math geaks, if the gs is reving at 10,000 rpm. what is the peak speed form for it turns around and does it again?
you have 10 mins to answer, GO!!!
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 09, 2006, 03:29:18 PM
Reving in the red zone will damage the engine, however the head gasket is usually the the first to go and is easily replaced.
I've never heard of that. Unless you are talking about excessive heat warping the deck, how is a head gasket affected by over revving? Over revving does not cause high cylinder pressures that would cause a head gasket failure (in most cases). As GeeP stated, "redline" usually first affects the valve train (yup...valve float, I've heard my 2005 GS500F float once on accident). In 75% of other catastrophic failure cases that I've observed, over revving has caused the rod bolts to stretch and things go from there.
-Turd.
Quote from: rangerbrown on July 09, 2006, 04:43:44 PM
ok math geaks, if the gs is reving at 10,000 rpm. what is the peak speed form for it turns around and does it again?
you have 10 mins to answer, GO!!!
Uhh...? I lost my decoder ring...what does that post mean?
-Turd the math geek.
the piston, is moving. how fast in mph/kmh
at 10000 rpm
You got a stroke of 56.6mm=2.23" to work with, its going that far X 10,000 per min, but what is avg/peak speed
Well the speed of the piston is always changing as the crank rotates. Are you asking for its peak speed? If the crank was rotating at a constant speed, the maximum speed would be when the journal on the crank shaft was 90 degrees from the centerline of the crank in the direction of rotation. Anyways, I sold my dynamics book...so no calculations for you!
-Turd.
3716 ft/min is the speed the piston will travel in a straight line (including reversal) at 10,000 RPM. This unit is the standard measurement of piston speed. It can be found by:
Stroke in feet x 2 x RPM = s
Maximum piston speed will be equal to the rotational speed of the center of the crankshaft journal at a given RPM. This measurement is used mainly for determining balance, and the inertia of the piston-rod combination. It can be calculated by;
(2.23 / 2 x Pi x RPM) / 12 = Maximum piston speed, FPM
s = 3717 FPM
Peak speed = 2918 FPM
I put the smaller sprocket on mine and lost some top end and gained better acceleration if your looking for a top speed run go the other way with a bigger sprocket, with the smaller I am now doing 500rpm more at any given speed so have actually lost the top end I got to 185kmh on standard gearing, I guess I would probably only get about 180kmh now mines been into redline a couple of times about 12000rpm and no problems so far but i wouldnt want to do it to often the only reason i really noticed was it was screaming but doing nothing more I looked down at the tacho shocked myself at where I was and backed off but while your in red line no more power is being made it really does start to stop past 10500rpm so I wouldn't bother to take it to redline through choice. :thumb: :cheers:
cant be right, 33 mph it is moving faster than that
Quote from: GeeP on July 09, 2006, 05:37:14 PM
3716 ft/min is the speed the piston will travel in a straight line (including reversal) at 10,000 RPM. This unit is the standard measurement of piston speed. It can be found by:
Stroke in feet x 2 x RPM = s
Maximum piston speed will be equal to the rotational speed of the center of the crankshaft journal at a given RPM. This measurement is used mainly for determining balance, and the inertia of the piston-rod combination. It can be calculated by;
(2.23 / 2 x Pi x RPM) / 12 = Maximum piston speed, FPM
s = 3717 FPM
Peak speed = 2918 FPM
Quote from: RedShift on July 08, 2006, 03:42:17 PM
Quote from: deathlucky on July 08, 2006, 05:15:32 AM
would i be able to say put a 15 tooth on the front and in 5th or 6th go past 180
According to AlphaFire's post in his own Hahahahahahahahahahahaha - aka Impressions of a 14T sprocket (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=28026.msg299144#msg299144) thread, a 14T front sprocket will do 110 MPH (176 KPM). Don't know if he was limited mechanically or by his nerve. (I'm surprised Alpha hasn't noticed & responded to this thread yet.)
Heh. I've been in San Antonio and working until now. :laugh:
The main limiter to how high you can rev is the valve float. As soon as they start to float the power drops off and it's a useless effort to rev higher (it's usually around 10.5k rpm anyways). It can damage your engine if you rev it extremely high (12k, 13k) numerous times. Once or twice and you'll probably be okay, but if you make a continuous thing of it be prepared for a busted up engine.
With the 14T sprocket I had 110 on the speedo at 10kRPM. I was limited mainly by the fact that I was following traffic (I-35 is crazy). I might be gearing limited to top speed now. That's not necessarily a bad thing though.
Also, my bike made peak power at 9500RPM. Revving it higher than that is not a bad thing, as mine makes more power at 10k than it does at 8.5 and 9k (I think). Shifiting above peak power can drop the RPMs from an upshift right into prime power territory. You just have to look at your dyno curve and see what it is telling you.
Summary: Over-revving is bad.
Quote from: rangerbrown on July 09, 2006, 08:40:51 PM
cant be right, 33 mph it is moving faster than that
3,700 FPM is actually on the high side. As an example, most aircraft engines operate at about 2,800 to 3,200 FPM at takeoff power.
yea i was jsut taling with my buddy form school i was wrong it more like 21.11 mph top speed total, but one must consider
it goes up (pistion) and hits this speed, then stops and then goes the other way at the same speed
10000 times a min or 166 times a sec
now add that up for a total speed per sec that comes to 3505mph in on sec
Quote from: rangerbrown on July 09, 2006, 09:26:45 PM
yea i was jsut taling with my buddy form school i was wrong it more like 21.11 mph top speed total, but one must consider
it goes up (pistion) and hits this speed, then stops and then goes the other way at the same speed
10000 times a min or 166 times a sec
now add that up for a total speed per sec that comes to 3505mph in on sec
I think my brain just blew a fuse on your dimensional analysis. :icon_mrgreen:
its ok the pistion speed between top and bottom is only 21mph.
every revolution at 10,000 rpm
but the thing to remeber is, that this is only in 2.23in's thats fast as hell
in 2.23 inch's its at 21mph
Yeah, I got what you meant, it was just the way you said it. :)
Quote from: GeeP on July 09, 2006, 04:17:45 PM
The purpose of the redline is as Sledge stated: It is the maximum safe operating speed. Past this speed it has been determined that some part of the engine will become over stressed.
most manufacturers put the redline at a safe distance from where it could actually cause major damage so the occasional misshift, or false neutral wont kill you. You will hear the valves floating after about 12k though. I've done it a few times accidentally.
what do u mean by valve floating
Valves are closed by springs, opened by the cams. When you overrev the springs are to weak to ceep the valve buckets in contact with the cams, they start to float. Which means that they don't close at the correct times and my collide with the pistons.
BTW, Google is your friend, so is Wiki
for real dam that sounds kinda fun can u get stronger springs like u must be able to the cbr250rr redlines at 18000rpm i have herd if u go past 20000 on it u will see ur pistons
if u rite like dat ima not going 2 bother reading what u rite.
It's to damn much work.
Quote from: deathlucky on July 10, 2006, 02:40:57 AM
for real dam that sounds kinda fun can u get stronger springs like u must be able to the cbr250rr redlines at 18000rpm i have herd if u go past 20000 on it u will see ur pistons
lol, yeah you could get stiffer springs to minimize the valve float, but the pistons still need to move very very fast to rev that high, faster than the pistons in a CBR250RR would because the GS has a longer stroke. So even if you fixed the valve issue, I bet bearing or rod/main bolt failure would follow right behind. If you want to rev higher, either 1) buy a CBR or 2) rebuild the engine with a stronger bottom end and valve train.
Maximum piston velocity occurs at the midpoint of the cylinder wall. You want to know the speed of the piston at this point when the engnine is at 10,000 rpm ??
Also bottom end on motorcycle engines rarely break as long as the correct amount of oil is in place.
ok lets see here... it's been a while since I've done circular motion in physics, but I'll give this my best shot, but tell me if I'm wrong:
w = 10,000 RPM = 166.67 RPS = 333.34 radians/sec
r = 56.6 mm / 2 = 28.3 mm = 0.0283 m
v = w * r = 333.34 radians/sec * 0.0283 m = 9.43 m/s or 21.09 MPH (peak velocity)
more importantly, the piston is constantly accelerating from 9.43 m/s to -9.43 m/s to 9.43 m/s and so on:
a = w^2*r = 333.34^2 * 0.0283 m = 3144.57 m/s^2 or 320.55 G's!!!
Anyone know how much the piston and rod weighs?
Quote from: Reddog787 on July 10, 2006, 09:53:51 AM
Also bottom end on motorcycle engines rarely break as long as the correct amount of oil is in place.
things will break... maybe not instantly like with a piston hitting a valve... but with the amount of force being exerted on the bearings, the clearances between the moving parts and the bearings becomes very small, and eventually it doesn't matter how much oil you have because there will be metal to metal contact and therefore no where for the oil to go. This will at the very least cause scoring on the bearings, crank, rods, and mains, all of which are bad. You can tell if an engine has been over revved on a regular basis by looking at the bearings as they will have some nasty scratches on them.
You forgot pi.
crap... technically, I didn't forget pi... I just didn't convert to radians properly because I... umm... forgot pi...
T = 1/10,000 RPM * 60 = 0.006 sec/rev
w = (2*pi)/T = (2*3.14)/0.006 sec/rev= 1046.67 radians/sec
SO ANYWAY:
w = 10,000 RPM = 166.67 RPS = 1046.67 radians/sec
r = 56.6 mm / 2 = 28.3 mm = 0.0283 m
v = w * r = 1046.67 radians/sec * 0.0283 m = 29.62 m/s or 66.26 MPH (peak velocity)
more importantly, the piston is constantly accelerating from 29.62 m/s to -29.62 m/s to 29.62 m/s and so on:
a = w^2*r = 1046.67^2 * 0.0283 m = 31003.16 m/s^2 or 3160.36 G's!!!
wow thats really high... is that right?! circular motion has never been one of my strong points
You're going to go make me go do that mechanical stuff, aren't you?
Quote from: LimaXray on July 10, 2006, 11:32:30 AM
crap... technically, I didn't forget pi... I just didn't convert to radians properly because I... umm... forgot pi...
T = 1/10,000 RPM * 60 = 0.006 sec/rev
w = (2*pi)/T = (2*3.14)/0.006 sec/rev= 1046.67 radians/sec
SO ANYWAY:
w = 10,000 RPM = 166.67 RPS = 1046.67 radians/sec
r = 56.6 mm / 2 = 28.3 mm = 0.0283 m
v = w * r = 1046.67 radians/sec * 0.0283 m = 29.62 m/s or 66.26 MPH (peak velocity)
more importantly, the piston is constantly accelerating from 29.62 m/s to -29.62 m/s to 29.62 m/s and so on:
a = w^2*r = 1046.67^2 * 0.0283 m = 31003.16 m/s^2 or 3160.36 G's!!!
wow thats really high... is that right?! circular motion has never been one of my strong points
That still doesn't explain why the romulan warbirds can't fire their photon torpedos while cloacked.
and BTW 1046.67 radians/sec hahahahahahah thats so 22nd century. My dilithium transcor crystals can do way better than that.
you guys ain't even near impulse power :laugh:
as the klingon say: kghoik moet yitn muyerbf, dummy!!!!!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
~ahumn ..now back to my hole..