GStwin.com GS500 Message Forum

Hi all!

I will tell what hapenned with my engine since i´ve brought my bike first, and then ask you, experts some advices!

My bike is a GS500 year 95, with around 50.000 miles and my engine first broke down because it was leaking and consuming a lot of oil, and I didnt took enought care with it, and left my bike running for a while with just a little bit of oil.







ok. I´ve brought new pistons, new bearings (sizes according with what the machine shop told me to buy), new rings, and left all on this shop to fill my crank with weld and then machine it to the standard measuremet.




Ok. Once all this work was done, they send the engine to my mechanics to mount the engine, and he did it. He milled the head by 0.7mm , took off the air box and used one 2 pods air filters, yoshimura exsaust, he opened the combustion chamber on the head, and ok. He mounted it on the bike, and i started to run with it.
I drove around 500miles really carefully, not passing the 6k rpm and not passing 70 m/h... When i first tried to accelerate a bit more, (i went up to 90m/h) the bike starts to loose its force and sunddenly i started to hear a lot of noise coming from the botton end.  I had to call a truck to take my bike back to my mechanics so he could see what happened. Oh, i was forgetting to mention that I could feel a lot of vibration since i had the engine rebuild. I was about to forget to say that my mechanics tried to wide up a little bit the oil jet gallery of my engine, dunno why!!
The day before this happened i was riding my bike and notice that sometimes, it loosened its power, and then it came back again, i tought it was something with the carb, and i was noticing a terrible vibration when riding it, just to give u guys an ideia, after riding for 10min. at 6k rpm, i couldnt feel my hands very well...





Ok, i had to buy again new bearings and new rings for the engine...  the machine shop had to fill the crank again with weld and then machine it again to the standard measurement. The mechanics mounted my engine again, and again, after a few miles, my engine f%$ked up again... and again the problem were the rods bearings...
The vibration still there, and i had to stop when i started to hear a lot of noise from the botton end again, and send the bike to the mechanics...
They told me the bearing of the left rod was making this noise and that it would have broken if i hasnt stop


I´ve done everything again for the 3rd time and the engine f%$ked up again, but this time, cuz the mechanics put the spacer between the crank and the bearing the other way round, making it impossible for the oil to reach that part of the crank and rod..... this spacer melted with the side of the crank and the engine stoped and locked the rear wheel!...

My mechanics exchanged at this time, the head, using a 0.7mm milled head,but now without open its chamber....


The 4th time, i just brought new rings, the machine shop just cleaned were the spacer had melted and mounted the engine again.... and wile i was riding my bike, the engine broke again, but this time the rods, piston, and a lot more broke!
It was a shame, cuz the bike was reaaaaaly good now, just by accelerating in first gear, the front end use to lift around 30cm up of the ground! ...  I measured 190 km/h
of real final speed!(measured with my veypor!)  (around 230 on the OEM velocimeter)....






Now, i dunno what to do!  
I have brought a good used crank, in really good condition, toguether with its rods and bearings.... i´ve brought as well a pair of wiseco pistons, new bearings and a new fuel pump (cuz i´m suspectin on this!)...

what u guys think of this? could any one give me an advice or help me finding what could it be happening?!

my bike is all modified and i have a gsxr 38mm carb to stick on it, and a new 04 GSXR front end to fit on it too! but i need to have this bike running!! :(




Thx a lot,
Filipe

i hate to say it, but why didn't you jsut get a used engine to put in it? there like 300-400 us $ on ebay

yeah, that would be a good way out... but here (in Brazil), I would have a lot of trouble with documentation. The only engines i find here are stolen engines, without receipt, and we are not allowed to swap engines without receipet ( i wouldnt do it with a stolen engine anyway)...

Wow...

It sounds to me like your troubles center around a poorly balanced engine and an incorrectly installed bearing insert.  However, I still can't rule out piston failure

Where was the piston you show in the bottom photograph found?  Was it in the cylinder or the crankcase? 

Can you upload a CLEAR photo of the small end of the damaged rod, as well as a clear overhead view of the damaged piston from the bottom side?

I think the problem is related to the crankshaft (which ties in with GeePs comments), or more specificaly the weld repair thats been carried out on it. I cant understand why the crank has been built up with weld and machined back to stock size. This is not a recognised or reliable method. The welded surface will simply never be as tough as or have the same characteristics as the parent metal particularly as you have made no mention of any re-hardening process or surface grinding process. Consequently it could fail prematurely. The recognised way to overcome the problem of worn journals is to grind them oversize to restore the correct surface finish then fit undersize bearing shells to compensate. My other concern is distortion of the crank or excess runout caused either during the original failure or by localised heat buildup when the weld was applied, in effect the crank could be twisted and the journals out of line. As Suzuki quote a max runout figure of 0.05mm (0.002") it would be quite hard to detect this without accurate equipment. Having said all that there is a recognised reclaimation technique known as spiral-welding which overcomes these problems (see Link)
http://www.spiralweld.co.uk/tech.html
However this is used in industry and best left to the experts, but it does explain the importance of using a correct method under controlled conditions. If you are still prepared to throw money at this I would be looking for a good 2ndhand crank, carefully checking that all the critical dimensions are within Suzukis specification and then carefully rebuild the engine.

Yeah, welding is nowhere near as consistent. That's also what I think is happening, it creates pressure points on the crank and it fails.

A company called Moldex makes aftermarket ones that have far superior strength and are much more consistent.

I need better pics of the crank and BOTH rods/pistons. (The damaged ones)

I Say replace the whole rotating assembly, get it balanced and such of course.

That's what methinks.

new bike yamaha r6 honda cbr600rr suzuki gsx-r600 personaly i think i will get a cbr600rr next only becaust the zorst is under the seat so when u drop it its not as bad

Deathlucky, your post is irrelevant, if he wanted a new bike he would have bought one already or not posted for advice. Thanx for your opinion, but it doesn't matter in this context.

Yes that's as nice as i can be and as much restraint as I can offer, what I really wanted to say really is better left unsaid.

Go get your CBR and join some CBR forums deathlucky, thanx. Until then please try to keep on topic.

I'm sure Fillipe has enough on his mind (and has already thought about kicking this bike to the curb) But he obviously has a lot of custom work into this one and would like to keep it for a while. It doesn't matter that it's not the fastest ever, it's his and he likes it.

Anyway Fillipe, just PM me some stuff and I'll try to help, or if you want to cut to the chase Kerry is the man for all things GS.

Quote from: CirclesCenter on July 10, 2006, 02:57:54 AM
Deathlucky, your post is irrelevant, if he wanted a new bike he would have bought one already or not posted for advice. Thanx for your opinion, but it doesn't matter in this context.

Yes that's as nice as i can be and as much restraint as I can offer, what I really wanted to say really is better left unsaid.

Jesus Christ man,  why dont you just pee on him, I think that'd be a tad bit more respectful

so you have a Buddha Loves You at me for going of topic then what do you call what you did i just saying if you can smash an engine 4 times you need some thing bigger god dam take a chil pill CirclesCenter

Hey I deleted the more "flavorful" things I typed at first before I posted, if you had read that your eyes would have burnt.  :laugh:

I'm not too mad though, but really it has no bearing and nothing to add to this, so let's close that discussion and just go to the part where we help Fillipe....

You know him, the guy who made this topic, asking for our help and such? (Wow I need to come with a disclaimer like AJ)

Anyways no more chatter, get Dr. Kerry in here quick! this engine is all Splayed and stuff!

Alright lets stop this arguement or take it else where (anyone of my threads will do cuz they always end up in the tard farm)

This guy spent a lot of time making this post, It doesnt need to get tarded OK

sorry boss

why dont you get a new engine dosnt matter how you get it just use the old seiral number if you can do that much to your engine im sure you can work out how to use the old seirals

Are you suggesting he obtains and uses a stolen engine? There are several members in here who had their bikes taken and who wont be too impressed with that idea.

I just say we keep bumping this thing until MR WIZARD can get ahold of it,


He has all the answers

BUMP

Bump
BUM <---- (WTF?)

PAGING DR. KERRY

i think he meant a legal engine, just some funkiness with numbers, seems like a lot of red tape over there.

BUMP

Hi guys!

Thx for ur attention!


I will try to take batter pics of the crank and the rods and pistons.... i will have to go to the machine shop trought, cuz they arent with me right now...
I just got a used, but in verrry good condition new crank. I will take pictures of it as well!
My concern about this engine is if either the mechanics or the machine shop are doing things wrong.... I dunno, they could be mouting things wrong, i dunno...

Another thing i forgot to tell you guys, is that everytime I get the bike from the mechanics with all the rebuilding, the bike doesnt vibrate, or at least not much... but its starting vibrating when i ride 100-200 miles, and as more as I ride, the engines vibrate more.... up to when it f%$k everything up and I have to rebuild it again...


Btw, i forgot to tell you guys, the machine shop filled my rod with weld as well!!! and did the same machine service, making it to the stock size.... This could be another thing, couldnt it?



thx
Filipe

IMO, You are driving a new engine extremely too hard after a rebuild.  You have to break it in again just like a new bike before trying to wheelie.  Maybe a new mechanic wouldn't hurt either like a reputable suzuki dealer.  You really should take 700 miles of break-in easy riding after a rebuild.  I rebuilt mine with no problems at all like you've shown.

Further to those comments I strongly suspect the `welded` bearing journals are failing after a short period of use and causing the repeated catastrophic failures. Ask the mechanics who did the work why they chose to do the crank repair in this way and not to grind and use undersize bearing shells. Ask them what the finshed main journal sizes were on assembly (Suzuki spec` 31.976 to 32.00 mm)  Ask them also if the rods they used are compatible with the parent metal of the crank, how they know and for proof. Also ask them what the maximum run out figure is for the crank (Suzuki spec` 0.05mm max) and see what they say. If they cant answer, they havent checked it, if you have doubts ask them to show you how they did it.

Quote from: Reddog787 on July 10, 2006, 10:04:54 AM
IMO, You are driving a new engine extremely too hard after a rebuild.  You have to break it in again just like a new bike before trying to wheelie.  Maybe a new mechanic wouldn't hurt either like a reputable suzuki dealer.  You really should take 700 miles of break-in easy riding after a rebuild.  I rebuilt mine with no problems at all like you've shown.

I did break in my engine before start riding faster with it! .... (rode around 600miles...)


I´m thinking if overheating could be a problem!? ... Here in Brazil its very hot, the engine works a little hot....   I´ve searched a lot about oil coolers on this forum, but didnt find anyone who actually installed a oil cooler in the GS engine.... / I also would like to install 2 gauges : oil pressure and oil temp.

What u guys think?

Btw, the machine shop will check the measurements of the new crank tomorrow!!

BUMP

PAGING DR. KERRY. DR. KERRY TO THE OPERATING ROOM.

BUMP BUMP

I don't think you could ride it hard enough to cause a problem after a fresh rebuild anyways. I mean yeah, not a good idea, but still I don't think that would be it.

Yeah the welds sound like the problem to me. But I'm only a nurse, Kerry is the Doctor.

It gets up to 110 here in the day and my bike doesn't mind so long as I don't get stuck in stop and go traffic.

editted for temp stuff.

Kerry would be the first to mention that this is a little out of his realm....on the other hand, if he had the spare engine I have here in the garage, he'd be making great photos of the insides!  :laugh:

Bob B, Srinath, or dgyver are the ones to look this over.

Filipe_500: You have gone way beyond the point of return on this engine. I would be worried about journal mounts and unseen case cracks due to impact. Your devotion to the GS will make you a legend, but it won't save this engine. Surely in all of your beautiful country there is another GS parts bike to be had.

Search for a used engine. Do not spend any more time or money with welded crankshafts --  I side with Sledge et al on that.

You might as well start working on this yourself. At least you would gain some experience and couldn't do any worse than others.  :dunno_white:

Sorry Starwalt, not being specific, just being a jackass...... Imaging being in a GS hospital, "Paging Dr. Starwalt to the OR"

No offense intended.

Just being a jackass, that's all.

Wise words indeed from Starwalt.
Filipe?
THROW THE WELDED CRANK AND RODS AWAY......they are not worth their weight in sh**!
The WILL fail again. A built up weld on a crankshaft journal  simply will never be as hard as the original parent metal, hardness is critical for this application and a welded surface will wear and fail in no time at all...PERIOD. Thats assuming the crank is in balance, is running true and has not been twisted by the heat generated during the welding process. Also that the journals have been machined within tolerance and polished to the correct surface finish. In the official Suzuki service manual for the GS5 of which I have a copy, I refer to section 13-4. It  lists 10 critical dimensions relating to the crankshaft and con-rods for the 95 model (same as mine incidently :)) . Its vital that the rods and crank, be them new or 2ndhand are properly checked with suitable and accurate  instruments and the dimensions are found to be within the tolerance stated by Suzuki, otherwise you are compromising reliability. This is precision  engineering and remember we are talking now about tolerences of 100th of 1mm. Your Mechanic has to be comfortable working to these figures to effect a reliable repair,  he must have the figures to hand for reference as well as suitable and accurate measuring instruments. I doubt very much he will have otherwise he will have got it right first time.
If I had a scanner I would gladly send you a copy of the figures for reference, unfortunately I dont. Perhaps another member who does own the manual and a scanner will send you a copy to pass on to your Mechanic. Personaly, like my colonial friend Starwalt states I think you have gone as far as you can with that engine, I would write it off and find a complete and low mileage 2ndhand one and simply start again. You dont know what strains and stresses have been imposed on its (apparently undamaged) component parts during the repeated failures and you have obviously (and correctly in my opinon) lost faith in your mechanic. This final comment goes without saying......I wouldnt hesitate to demand your money back from the mechanic. Threaten him with legal action if he refuses. Here in the UK he would loose hands down.

Quote from: CirclesCenter on July 10, 2006, 04:08:23 PM...... Imaging being in a GS hospital, "Paging Dr. Starwalt to the OR"

I work in hospitals and have been paged too many times.   :cry: The OR is the last place I enjoy working. Haven't really been in there in years. As a matter of fact, the last OR I was in was in Haiti (way off topic, but a really cool story). I'm on vacation this week and hope to not see the inside of any health care facility or more specifically any MRI scanner.

Quote
No offense intended.

None taken. I just didn't want anyone to be getting hopes up for a Kerry solution here. He's just super at so many things except engine internals. Poor Philipe needs a transplant here.  Anyone in South America know a donor?

Quote
Just being a jackass, that's all.

Well...maybe you will outgrow it.  :laugh:  It is probably not genetic.

By the way......bad luck in the World Cup...I had a small bet on brazil winning!! :cry:

Regarding the delaminated/broken rotor magnets...

Filipe, here on GSTwin this is referred to as "Goat's Syndrome".  It can occur naturally in the life of the GS, but in this case I wonder if the magnets struck the stator windings due to eccentricity while rotating? The tolerances are vital and without a lot of room for error.

Again -- it is donor engine time for this GS.  :cry:

I vote we petition Srinath to name this cycle of repair/failure "Filipe Syndrome" or more accurately "Filipe's Bad Mechanic Syndrome." I've seen some desperate things done to repair machines in 3rd world countries, but Brazil is not 3rd world and surely better can be done here.

Sledge has a good idea when it comes to the manual pages. I too have a  Suzuki manual (actually two OEM and a Clymer and a Haynes) and can scan the important pages for your reference if needed. All I would need is an email address to send it to. PM me with it.

Starwalt?
"FBMS" sounds good to me, he does deserve some recognition, both  for his persistance  but more importantly the amount of cash he has handed over for what has turned out to be 4 worthless repair attempts.  :bowdown:

Hi mates!

Thanks a lot for your moral help :P  BUT, I dont want my name associated with a GS500 failure! hauahua... I´ve spend over a year and tons of cash on this bike to have this engine not working propelly :( .... I would accept have my name associated with a very modifided GS500 tho! :P


I just have few questions now!

- I just got a used crank but in really good shape! Do I have to rebalance it, or its balanced already and i dont have to do anything?

- My email is :  filipe.carpes@terra.com.br   / I REEEAALLLY would apreciate a pic of the important pages of this manual...!! :) :)

- I just brought a new oil pump, a good crank, new rods, new WISECO pistons with rings and piston pin, new bearings....   I shoudnt have a prob. now, right?!

-Does anyone know how to stick a oil cooler on the GS? i would like to stick a oil pressure gauge and oil temp gauge as well... I´ve searched ALL topics around here, but couldnt find anyone who actually done it!



Thxxx
Filipe

Btw: No one in Brazil can believe how bad we played against France, if even we have played good... its ok to loose, but it was a shame... :( 

Starwalt is happy to send you a lifted copy of all the critical dimensions via email and I am sure he will. Its vital you have the crank and associated dimensions and the run-out checked by someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.  It will do no harm to have the crank and rotating mass balanced. Also make sure the bearing shells are the correct size to suit the crank journals and housings as there can be variations during manufacture/assembly. The GSF has an oil cooler as standard, dunno whats involved in fitting it to a GSE, if there are no mods to the block/head between the models I cant see it being difficult to fit one.........One last tip, find a better mechanic, ask other bikers for recomendations or try the bike magazines.

Hi guys,

i´ve just remembered i did some movies with my bike...

http://rapidshare.de/files/25506346/14_08_05_008.mpg.html  This is before the engine break first time!
If u pay attention, u can hear a metalic noise coming from it! At this point, i felt my bike wasnt as strong as when i first got it, and the bike had a lot of vibration, especially at 5-6 k RPM!

http://rapidshare.de/files/25507677/marcha_lenta.MPG.html This was before the engine break last time!


I´m still trying to find some oil coolers solution over the internet :P hope i find it within another 5h at most :P

Oops - how did I miss the updates to this thread all day?  I guess it kept getting bumped to the top, and I tend to work from the bottom up.  :dunno_white:

Quote from: starwalt on July 10, 2006, 03:17:08 PMKerry would be the first to mention that this is a little out of his realm....on the other hand, if he had the spare engine I have here in the garage, he'd be making great photos of the insides!  :laugh:

starwalt is absolutely right.  I don't have all the answers ... just about none when it comes to engine internals.  That's 'cause I've been lucky enough to not have to open mine up yet!

As it turns out, I actually DO have a spare engine in my shed.  (From richard running my former '96 without oil. :nono:)  But all I have done with it is steal the valve shims.  :icon_mrgreen:

You might have noticed that I stay out of most rejetting discussions, too.  My carbs still have the brass plugs in place.  :)

Quote from: starwalt on July 10, 2006, 03:17:08 PMBob B, Srinath, or dgyver are the ones to look this over.

Yep, and I noticed that Filipe_500 listed 2 of them by name in the original thread title.  :thumb:

I am still `plugged` too. Jetting, exhausts air-boxes and other mods are not really my thing. I like older bikes that look like they just came out the crate and run the way the makers intended. That doesnt mean to say modding is a bad thing, we all enjoy our bikes in differing ways.

Ok Filipe_500 you have 4 emails coming your way. I broke the scanned pages up in case your ISP limits download size. Scanning them in black&white plus cropping helped. I sent the specification pages for the area you are working in AND the service also specific to the crankshaft and conn rods.  I hope it helps.

Well gents, I pulled my brass plugs simply because I was doing a complete tear-down of the carbs. I've been taking some vacation this week and got all the electricals on the GS rebuild completed.  :thumb:

I even ventured to turn the engine over with the start button -- it turned over just fine thank you.  Three cheers! :cheers: Love to hear the thump-suck-thump-suck sound of pistons moving.

The list of things to do is very short now. Just waiting on a parts order from MR Cycles and I'll be hooking up the carbs soon afterward.

I just may get this thing running before my coworker sells me his identical painted 90 GS.

Maybe. ;)

hi mate!


Have u send it alrdy? i didnt get anything yet!


Thx a lot!!


Filipe

up!