So I guess it was hot today and I did do a good amount of riding, but on my way home from work tonight (when it wasnt that hot) I jumped on the freeway and after about a minute I noticed this strange noise. The noise depends on both RPM and throttle and sounds kinda like there is popcorn in the exhaust or something. The noise SEEMs to be coming from the left side of the engine by the cover, but its hard to tell because I only observed the noise while riding, when I went got off its much harder to notice the noise if it is even there at all. I tried to listen to it while it was idling but then the oil light came on and I just turned it off and decided to post this up. Any idea whats up
I guess first thing would be to check the oil level when the sun comes up. The sad thing was that I planned on changing the oil tomorrow, because i JUST hit 17k (2600mi since last oil change).
**edit: here is the video of the noise for easy access:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0zQzEwJ7ds
Yeah check the oil, and check the chain. You probably know already but: make sure bike is on centerstand for oil check, but is the sidestand for chain. Chain slack is .8 - 1.2 inch. i think.
I'll check both of those in the morning but it definately sounds like its coming from the front of the bike (engine, tranny etc.) Its just so hard to explain a noise through text
It's a '91.. when was the last time you did a valve check/adjustment?
Also.. the title of your thread had me laughing out loud! :thumb:
sounds like low oil always remeber to check your oil at least every 2nd ride and keep it topped up not just at half or 3/4 but all the way :thumb: :cheers:
It could be goats syndrome. (Alternator rotor breaking up). The bits might then have affected the oil pump.
If it was low oil, pray that you haven't heard the beginning damage that this can cause. It's not pretty (and usually means that you'd rather replace the engine than fix the damage itself; doing the latter is a nice piece of education, though.)
cam chain i had this sound like that it kind sounded like a bunch of washers on a bolt being shaken and it got worst over time
Quote from: deathlucky on July 24, 2006, 02:30:58 AM
cam chain i had this sound like that it kind sounded like a bunch of washers on a bolt being shaken and it got worst over time
thats pretty damn close to what I would say the sound is
Okay so checked the oil and it is damn low. AAAAAAH the bike literally has 16999.1 miles on it right now and my plan for today was to change the oil. I guess I am a retard for not checking it more often. So, it sounds like I broke something expensive huh? Would adding oil fix this problem (please say yes). I'm going to head over to the dealer and get some oil but any consensus as to what the problem could be now that low oil has been established?
Thanks!
It should fix it if you didn't cause any permanent damage.
I'd have to say cam chain, too. Could just be lack of oil causing it to be more noisy than normal. I have an 05 with about 3,000 miles on it and just finished up a valve adjustment, oil change, the works. I've been hearing the noise you describe and I think I've got it located to the cam chain.. It isn't BAD but I can hear it fapping every now and then. Question is, should it be TOTALLY silent if the chain slack is within clearance or is it normal to hear it fap at random intervals? I usually only hear it at idle, goes away completely while riding.
(Please say it's normal - I don't want to have to get in there again for a while)
The job itself only took me about 30 minutes, hooray. But, then I forgot to tighten down my throttle cables. D'oh. Off the tank comes. Fixed. Then I forgot to install my inline fuel filter. D'oh. Off the tank comes again. Fire up the bike and realize I've tightened the throttle way too much to where I could use it like a cruise control. D'Oh. Off the tank comes again. I've learned that redundancy is very important if you don't want a 30 minute job to last 3 hours.
Okay so I changed the oil (along with a wash and wax) and then started her up. The noise was there for a little while, but then subsided. I only hear the noise as the RPM's pass through 4k within a 500RPM or so band but that, hopefully, might go away when I get out and ride her. I got a good chance to listen to the noise though, and it sounded like it was coming from under the engine like where the transmission is rather than the cam cover, although it is highly probable that the noise is just resonating through but I'll see if the noise comes back or what.
Lesson learned: stop being a dumbass and check your oil more often!!
update:
So I took the bike out for a ride, and the noise is definately still there under load above 4K. I am also noticing a definate lack of power in the upper range, although I did not punch it too hard because I did not want to cause further damage. Does this mean that I am f'd? The noise almost sounds like I have a second exhaust that is full of washers or something rattling, but the noise is the same frequency as the exhaust. Aaaah is there anyone in the Santa Barbara area that could hear this noise?? So given the loss of power, any new ideas?
Difficult to say, but if you did have a cam chain problem and the cam drive jumped a tooth or so you might have bent a valve. Which would explain the power loss. And all sorts of strange noises.
Check (have checked) compression.
OTOH, if it comes from the lower end, it might be a rod bearing. Common first damage when oil is very low.
Please tell me:
1) You drained your oil into a perfectly clean container.
2) You still have your old oil, and it hasn't been mixed with anything else.
If so, strain your oil through a paper towel. What do you see?
I agree with the post above. Or at least I hope that you examined your oil filter, you can cut the ellement apart and spread it out to examine for metal particles. If you find anything at all you should pull the oil pan and check the oil pickup for any chunks. if you find some you may be able to replace the bearings without needing to replace your major components (crank, rods, etc). If you find metal, brass and bronze = bearings, steel and alluminum = crank, rods, cam, etc = just find a used engine and replace the hole thing. Either way, if you find any metal you will need to tear the engine apart or it will die shortly.
Of course it could be the cam chain, so check the tensioner and replace that before tearing the thing apart.
i think ur cam chain is loose mine was as loose as paris hilton because the cam chain tenioner had been ripped off it was just hanging on by 1 of the bolts
Luckily I bought one of those oil catch cans with the screw top from Kmart right before I changed the oil so that I could recycle it more easily. That plus the fact that Im a lazy sob means that I do still have the oil and it hasn't been mixed with anything else.
I guess I'll go check the cam chain and tensioner. It seems weird that engine damage due to low oil would have occured when I was driving home from work because it was cold and I wasnt pushing it hard. I've done a good amount of canyon riding in the past few (and even the same) days so it seems like if there was a time when a butt load of damage were to occur it would be when the engine was hot/being beaten on. Here's hoping :cheers:
So to check the cam tensioner, I would follow what it says about halfway down this page right?
http://www.gstwin.com/adjust_valves.htm
So I have the bike apart to check the cam chain and tensioner. I took off the valve cover and the cam chain seemed to be taught. There did seem to be an excessive amount of oil on top of the bottom left valve bucket (intake right?) compared to the rest of them and compared to when I checked the valve clearance a thousand miles ago. I also checked the tensioner, but really didnt know what I was looking for. I removed the two allen bolts then took the tensioner out, removed the two screws and turned the innards with a flat head screwdriver. The coil wound up then unwound when I released the pressure. I'm assuming that means its working normally. Putting back the cam tensioner, however, I am a bit confused. It seems to be pressing on the cam chain and doesnt want to slide in. Should I use force to put it in by tightening the allen screws that go on it or is there something that I am doing wrong and it should just click into place??
nm on reinstalling the cam tensioner I reread the FAQ and found what I was looking for. But the question still remains of what should I look for next, a compression test???
so i guess i should just take it to the dealership or what?
Okay so I strained the oil through a paper towel. There are a few small little particles of metal with a brassish appearance in the oil. Not alot by any means but when I held the paper towel up to the light you can see where they were and they shine bronze/brass in the light.
I would expect to see a small particle or two under 1/100", but not more than that. What does the oil itself look like? When stirred up does it have a sheen like metallic paint?
Diagnosing your problem from a thousand miles away is difficult. If your oil has a metallic sheen to it you probably have a rod bearing wearing, especially considering the sound. Journal bearings rarely fail on their own. Normally oil contamination from other metallic particles is to blame.
The few particles you have won't worry me if you don't have metallic oil. If you don't, I suspect what you have been hearing is detonation or "pinging". On a high-speed engine like the GS, it can sound like a coffee can full of washers. Detonation will cause power loss and is usually pronounced at high throttle angles. You might try running premium gas to see if the sound goes away.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
I stirred the oil, it looked normal didnt have a sheen to it at all just dark and brown. It had a typical of old oil mirror like surface but didnt have a seen like metallic paint.
Ever since I got the bike, I've been filling up with premium (91 cali gas). I'm just scared to see how my tearing the bike apart and putting it back together has affected the problem because I dont wanna be riding around on a hurt engine any more than need be.
Thanks for all the reponses though
so went on another ride, it just sounds like a second exhaust note. The problem seemed a little better for a little while then when I started to use more throttle I noticed it to be the same. It doesnt make noise when I'm feathering it below 4k but once i get above that it sounds like i have a second exhaust with a hole in it or semething. I'll try to make a sound clip tomorrow if I can, friday at the latest.
How much power loss would I have from a leak in my exhaust? what about a leak at the cam cover? or is this totally the wrong direction, I'm just confused becasue wouldn't bearing/rod/whatever trouble make noise all the time rather than just above 4k?
Just so you know, and not to de-rail this thread, but "premium" is a waste in your GS500. It isn't any cleaner of a fuel than "regular." The words premium and regular are poor choices of naming, but it's clever enough to trick people into thinking premium is somehow "better." Afterall, we all want the best, right? In short, "regular", or 87 octane is easier to combust due to its lower octane level. It requires the least compression of the 3 choices to combust properly. Now, "premium" fuel or, 91-93 octane requires more compression to combust. In higher performance motors, "premium" is often called for because they're high compression motors (10:1 or higher). Our little GS is about as low as you can get in compression, 9.0:1, which happens to take about 87 octane to combust properly.
Who cares, you might ask? Well, for one thing, you're not getting more performance out of it since the engine isn't designed for a higher octane fuel so in effect, your money is being wasted. More often than not, you're getting LESS performance because when the fuel is compressed and ignited, it isn't burning completely, leaving both buildup and your money inside the combustion chamber. Negative side effects are less noticable when using a high octane fuel in a low compression engine as opposed to a low octane fuel in a high compression engine. In a high compression engine without knock sensors, the engine would ping (pre-detonate) like crazy because the engine is compressing the fuel alot more than it's suppose to be, thus causing it to ignite itself before it's suppose to.
Anyways, I just hate to see people waste their money and fall into the "I just want the best" category, because I too am one of those guys. If it's better for my equipment, I'll spend the extra couple of bucks. I used to believe the "premium means more power/is cleaner" myth. Sometimes it does, however, in modern cars with knock sensors. The knock sensor will advance the timing of the engine to avoid pinging, which usually will give you a slight performance boost, but the real cost vs performance just isn't there. Or for high compression engines that are forced to use a low octane fuel, the KS will retard the timing, thus giving the illusion that it's the FUEL when really you're just not using what the manufacturers recommend in the manual. Also, it's a good thing to note that all of the gas we fill up with, no matter what gas station it is, all comes from the same handful of refineries.
Basic rule of thumb if you don't know the exact compression ratio of the engine is to ride a couple tanks of each grade and note how the engine is effected. Try not to bias your opinion from the deceptive labelling of the fuel grades. You should always use the lowest possible octane you can use without pinging.
Yeah, I have heard that argument before. Well if it is of any matter, the "premium" we get in california is cat pee to other states that get 93, so I'm really using only one octane rating up from the "regular" of the 49 states, if I am not mistaken. But yes, valid point nonetheless.
Consider getting a sample of the engine oil analysed. The report will tell you if there is an issue with the engine and its cheaper and easier than dismantling and inspecting.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/motorcycle.html
I think I may have a problem with getting the oil analyzed as I strained most all of it through paper towels
Quote from: vsboxerboy on July 27, 2006, 09:33:15 AM
I think I may have a problem with getting the oil analyzed as I strained most all of it through paper towels
Hrm, I bet that would propose a bit of a problem. I'd e-mail them and ask if it would be a problem though and on your report, you could just ignore the extreme high bits of paper that are in your oil. I doubt paper towels are woven tight enough to filter out anything significant. But, again I don't know... best odds are to just ask them how it would effect your test result. They're pretty honest guys.
Oil filters are paper. It won't affect your test result. ;)
I'm interested to hear what this engine sounds like.
when i dropped my rod bearing it started out sounding like an exhaust leak, when i got on the gas it got louder. then i knew i was done, pulled over cought a ride and rebuilt her that winter
here is my advice. change your oil (if you havnt already) see if that helps. if not you might be better off tearing the motor apart and seeing what is wrong iwth it.
Quote from: GeeP on July 27, 2006, 01:52:25 PM
Oil filters are paper. It won't affect your test result. ;)
Yeah, they are, but paper towels are so loose knit that it could cause an excess of debris to show up in the test.
An excess of debris will mean nothing and wont affect the result of an oil analysis, in fact its a good thing in that it makes the test easier to conduct. The results are based on average PPM (parts per million) sampling so the more contamination there is both in terms of quantity and differing metals the easier it will be to formulate a result. The analysis will identify the makeup of the metalic elements in the oil and from this its possible to identify which parts are failing. Its a common technique used extensively in industry to monitor the condition of hydraulic and oil-lubricated rotating machinery, particularly where unscheduled downtime can cost tens of thousands per hour.
Alright so I took out the digital camera, put it in my pocket and went for a spin. The bike was warmed up first. The way I was riding wasn't quite normal as I was going very light on the throttle. You can hear the noise of the exhaust then you can hear when I get above 4k the second noise which sounds like crap. I didn't know how to extract the audio from the video so it is youtubed for your pleaseure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0zQzEwJ7ds
oh and my problem with sending the oil in to be tested was that because I sent the oil through the filter, wouldnt it show less particle matter than there was before the test, which would make the test inaccurate becaseu alot of the particle matter is on the paper towel, not in the oil
Quote from: vsboxerboy on July 28, 2006, 11:48:59 AM
oh and my problem with sending the oil in to be tested was that because I sent the oil through the filter, wouldnt it show less particle matter than there was before the test, which would make the test inaccurate becaseu alot of the particle matter is on the paper towel, not in the oil
Not really.. A paper towel isn't going to filter very much of particulate that small. If a paper towel were as tight as an oil filter, you would not be able to run your oil through it very easily. The filters are made to withstand oil being constantly pumped through them.. if you tried to stuff paper towels in your bike, they'd disintigrate very quickly. :laugh:
shameless bump
So I was reading WildBlue's thread about his engine noise and his upcoming engine rebuild. Does this sound like the same problem that he was having? His noise sounds fairly similar, but somethings are off such as mine doesnt make the noise while idle but it does get louder when I hit the gas...
are you guys able to see the video??
I saw it. I have no idea what that noise is.
If it does it while not moving, you might invest in a stethoscope and try and pinpoint the location of the noise.
well, i guess i could get a friend to help me, it doesnt make the noise while idling and only makes it a little when not under load even if i rev the engine. There is severe power loss though, although im not pushing it hard but the bike really feels weak.
You should also check the compression. It doesn't exactly sound like piston slap, but then again, the bandwidth of your camcorder isn't as good as a human ear.
I was a bit confused about how to go about checking the compression. I googled for a gauge to check the compression and it was rediculously expensive. Where would I get the tool from and how much should it cost, or should I just take it to the dealer?/
You can get one at autozone or similar for about $30 I think. You can also borrow one for free at AZ.
Sounds like a big end connecting rod bearing to me. It's LOUD too! I'm truly suprised you don't have "metal flake" oil, but I still think it's a con rod bearing.
I suggest a teardown and inspection before it breaks, otherwise you'll have a mess. Hopefully you'll be able to get by with a new set of bearings, but I would be prepared for a new crankshaft or rod. A bearing failure isn't a particularly serious problem from the repair standpoint, as long as it's caught in time. I think you caught it in time. :thumb:
I certainly hope so. Thanks alot for the help...should I even bother with a compression test or just go ahead with the teardown. I just ordered a repair manual (yes, through the link that supports the site 8)). I was reading WildBlue's thread and it was posted:
Quote from: Mandres on July 27, 2006, 05:24:13 PM
Go ahead and order a complete gasket set so you'll have it when you're ready to reassemble. You'll need a dial caliper, valve spring compressor, ring expander, torque wrench, cylinder hone, circlip pliers and gasket scraper as well as solvents and moly grease.
It's not difficult but it is time consuming. Work patiently and cleanly and you shouldn't have any problems.
-M
Any other parts I should order??
A compression test won't tell you anything about the condition of the connecting rods. I would go ahead and do a complete overhaul, to include boring the cylinders if needed. You would be completely renewing the cylinders. In that case a compression test won't tell you anything you need to know. When you're done you'll have a new GS.
Out of curiosity, what RPM were you shifting at? Now, you're positive the valve clearances are within specification? I just don't want to see a post a week from now saying that the bottom end is fine, but one valve shim was out .1". :)
Just to be sure, I would take a trip down to Autozone tomorrow and buy yourself a mechanic's stethescope. They're about $10 or so. You should be able to hear that rod knock with the engine idling in neutral. If you hear a little "clack clack" from the lower case area you know what the problem is beyond a doubt.
I think I paid about $60 for my compression gauge.
Yeah, I definately checked the valve clearance about 1500 miles ago, and it made a huge difference. I will check again before I tear apart the engine but I checked when I examined the cam tensioner and everthing looked good. I was shifting at about 5K in the video but was only going about 1/4 throttle.
That sound is not a valve. I think GeeP probably got it right. However, determining where it is coming from is key.
Yeah, I'll have to go to autozone and get that...just wondering, what would boring the cylinders cost or how much approx do you figure this will be costing me to fix?
Mandres would know.
I suspect you're probably looking in the $500 range to completely overhaul the engine - assuming the crankshaft is OK. (It should remain is specification unless the bearing has spun or there are steel particles in the oil.) To fix your bearing problem will probably run about $100 - $150.
Note: I haven't had to tear into a GS engine yet, it's an educated guess from a time when I was planning to buy a ratbike instead of the GS I found. I looked up all the parts I expected to replace and added it up. One of the racers who tears into their engine on a regular basis would be able to give you a closer figure.
Boring the cylinders will be around $100, possibly less. It depends on the shop.
Do you have the Clymer's manual? If not, order one. You'll be needing it! :)
QuoteMandres would know.
Yup! He just finished a bottom end as I recall. 8)
I ordered the Clymers manual through the link on the gstwin.com main site but $150 isnt bad at all probably another $100 or so on tools as well (I don't have a torque wrench, etc). I was just making sure cause I bought the bike for $1200 so I didn't want to spend a fortune fixing it. Either way the amount I learn should be worth the cost.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on July 31, 2006, 12:21:58 PM
I ordered the Clymers manual through the link on the gstwin.com main site but $150 isnt bad at all probably another $100 or so on tools as well (I don't have a torque wrench, etc). I was just making sure cause I bought the bike for $1200 so I didn't want to spend a fortune fixing it. Either way the amount I learn should be worth the cost.
Not only will the knowledge gained be worth the cost, you'll have a bunch of cool new tools after you're done! Something you don't get when you pay others to perform the work for you. Then, the next time you have to rebuild a bike, you'll already have all the tools and the know-how to do it.
About the only advice I can offer is to take your time and don't try to finish the job in record time. Be patient and very meticulous. Slow and steady wins the race, they say. If you think the directions you're reading won't give you a clear picture you can remember for when you put things back together, sometimes color coding with tape or markers can help as well as taking pictures.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on July 31, 2006, 12:21:58 PM..... another $100 or so on tools as well (Ias just making sure cause I bought the bike for $1200 so I didn't want to spend a fortune fixing it. Either way the amount I learn should be worth the cost.
Don't look at repair cost balanced against the current market value of the machine as it sits, it's false logic and precisely what the automobile companies want you to think. Instead, look at repair cost balanced against REPLACEMENT cost. An example:
My company uses a process pump. I can buy them used for $1,000 or new for $5,000. The used one will require an overhaul costing $2,000 or twice what the used pump is worth on the open market. The $3,000 overhauled pump performs just as well and for just as long as the brand new $5,000 pump, the only difference is price.
So, I put $2,000 into a $1,000 pump and saved $2,000! :icon_twisted:
Put another way:
I bought my GS for $700. I can rebuild it to as-new condition for about $1,500. That's the works, everything is either overhauled or brand new. So for $2,200 I'll have a brand new GS. If I were to go out and buy a brand new GS it would cost me about $5,000. Obviously, I save quite a bit doing it myself and I get to customize it just for me.
Now, I might not be able to recoup that $1,500 if I sold it, but if it's getting the job done there's no need to sell it now is there?
Stop thinking like a consumer and start thinking like a mechanic! Some poor bastard put the sucker together so you can sure as heck take it apart and fix it. :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
QuoteNot only will the knowledge gained be worth the cost, you'll have a bunch of cool new tools after you're done! Something you don't get when you pay others to perform the work for you. Then, the next time you have to rebuild a bike, you'll already have all the tools and the know-how to do it.
Absolutely! Not only that, but those skills are also useful for working on your car. As soon as you touch your car you're putting $120 an hour into your pocket. That's what the car dealer will charge you for the pleasure of repairing your vehicle.