Haven't logged in for a while. Just wanted to let everyone know that the 2007 sv650 (naked and faired) will have available ABS. I've been seriously thinking about getting a sv650s this winter, now I'm convinced.
bleh...I'm glad it's not a standard issue thing. ABS sucks.
^Agreed.
Why does ABS suck? I've only heard good things about it.
-James
The big Bandit is back with another 50 cc, water cooling, and ABS.
2007 Bandit 1250 ABS MSRP: $8,799.00
Thought it might be EU only, but it was just added to US Suzuki site:
http://www.suzukicycles.com/Products/GSF1250SAK7/Default.aspx
Quote from: gsJack on September 27, 2006, 03:33:32 PM
The big Bandit is back with another 50 cc, water cooling, and ABS.
2007 Bandit 1250 ABS MSRP: $8,799.00
Thought it might be EU only, but it was just added to US Suzuki site:
http://www.suzukicycles.com/Products/GSF1250SAK7/Default.aspx
But we don't get the naked version, unfortunately. I bet it'd make a killer sport touring mount though!
Quote from: arcsecond on September 27, 2006, 03:22:20 PM
Why does ABS suck? I've only heard good things about it.
People think they can brake in an emergency on any surface and traction situation better than a purpose-built electronically controlled braking system. While it's true that a super-expert rider can outbrake ABS on a known road surface, it's likely that you are not a super-expert rider, and it's also likely you will not know the exact traction characteristics of the surface you are emergency-braking on.
Or, people have had a problem with a primordial dark-ages ABS system from 1986 and fail to realize that 20 years of technology has made ABS the life saver that it is.
Or, people think that riding a motorcycle should be as dangerous as possible, and that any device used to increase our safety makes us pansies.
Personally, I think ABS rocks, and despite how having all those extra hoses makes bleeding your brakes take four times longer, I wish I had it. I've never needed it so far, but on the day that I need it and don't have it I'll be pretty disappointed.
So, don't let the luddies confuse you. If I had the option on my bike I'd opt for it.
...while some of us believe it's a complicated system that virtually eliminates the physical connection between the driver/rider and the most important part of the vehicle. In the performance world it's about as beneficial as fly-by-wire. In the real world it belongs on minivans driven by soccermoms and commercial vehicles driven by idiots.
Quote from: Chuck on September 27, 2006, 03:40:38 PM
Quote from: arcsecond on September 27, 2006, 03:22:20 PM
Why does ABS suck? I've only heard good things about it.
People think they can brake in an emergency on any surface and traction situation better than a purpose-built electronically controlled braking system. While it's true that a super-expert rider can outbrake ABS on a known road surface, it's likely that you are not a super-expert rider, and it's also likely you will not know the exact traction characteristics of the surface you are emergency-braking on.
Or, people have had a problem with a primordial dark-ages ABS system from 1986 and fail to realize that 20 years of technology has made ABS the life saver that it is.
Or, people think that riding a motorcycle should be as dangerous as possible, and that any device used to increase our safety makes us pansies.
Personally, I think ABS rocks, and despite how having all those extra hoses makes bleeding your brakes take four times longer, I wish I had it. I've never needed it so far, but on the day that I need it and don't have it I'll be pretty disappointed.
So, don't let the luddies confuse you. If I had the option on my bike I'd opt for it.
Well said, I have only heard good things of abs. Coming back from alaska we rode with this guy for a day and he had abs on his bike and I asked him about it, he said he only "needed" it once, but he is sure glad he had it or else he would have gone down. In town riding with intersections with cars and gravel here and there with road conditions not always being the same, abs looks to be a good feature.
Quote from: makenzie71 on September 27, 2006, 03:57:32 PM
...while some of us believe it's a complicated system that virtually eliminates the physical connection between the driver/rider and the most important part of the vehicle. In the performance world it's about as beneficial as fly-by-wire. In the real world it belongs on minivans driven by soccermoms and commercial vehicles driven by idiots.
ABS has nothing at all to do with fly-by-wire. It certainly is complicated, and it sounds like you don't know how it works. That's no reason to hate on it. ABS doesn't do jack unless it senses that your wheel is stopping faster than it ever could conceivably stop on dry pavement. Until that happens, you are linked to the ground by hydraulic fluid just like you always were. Where are you "in the performance world" anyway? I'm in the real world. ABS is not for racing. I drive on the street, with water and sand and oil. Have you driven a car with ABS in the past 5-10 years?
I'd like you to point out where I said ABS and fly-by-wire had anything to do with one another asside being similarly useful.
I'm fully aware of how ABS works, I have had numerous cars equiped with it, and when and where it's beneficial. I've yet to encounter a situation where the benefit of ABS trumped the presence of common sense.
Quote from: makenzie71 on September 27, 2006, 04:21:31 PM
I'd like you to point out where I said ABS and fly-by-wire had anything to do with one another asside being similarly useful.
You said it "eliminates the physical connection between the driver/rider and the most important part of the vehicle." That's about the definition of fly-by-wire. You made the relation by juxtaposition. I know what you meant. You can't weasel out of your point by saying "well that's not
exactly what I said."
Quote from: makenzie71 on September 27, 2006, 04:21:31 PM
I'm fully aware of how ABS works, I have had numerous cars equiped with it, and when and where it's beneficial. I've yet to encounter a situation where the benefit of ABS trumped the presence of common sense.
I've yet to encounter a situation where the benefit of my helmet has been made apparent. That does not mean it does not have benefit. I've used my common sense to keep my noggin off the road, but I know that helmets and ABS have helped thousands of other people when the chips were down.
You might think that the cost of ABS outweighs its benefit, and that's fine. That's the case for me. I would have to buy a whole new bike to get ABS, and that's about as far out from the cost/benefit line as you can get. But if you have ABS you are safer than without it. No sh!t. If you make a claim like "ABS sucks" you better have some scientific facts other than "I never needed it," because you're on the wrong side of decades of research and engineering.
ABS is a great thing on cars. ABS is a nice thing on SPORTBIKES! It is not essential.
I don't know much since I cheated in all my physics classes to pass but here's what I remember.
F=ma Now the force we're talking about is the braking force, the m=mass=our bike mass, and a=acceleration. So the larger the vehicle, the more force it takes to make it stop at a certain speed m=f/a. The faster the vehicle is travelling, the more force it takes to make it stop with a certain mass. Now would a bike benefit from ABS? Yes it will. However, we riders that regularly practice high and low speed quick stops implement our own ABS. Our braking inputs are much more sensitive than a cars so we have to develope them properly. What does that mean, if you didn't have ABS, you could learn how much force it would take to stop your car without yeilding a skid. Although we travell at high speeds, our bikes are so light that it doesn't take much to get them to stop. ABS, while it would help, would not be worth the extra money initially and down the road with maintnance.
PS Don't forget to leave yourself an out. Do that, practice high and low speed quick stops, and you'll be good to go. My opinion. I am not a physisist by any stretch of my imagination so please set me straight if I'm worng. I could see this being used on heavier cruisers and tourers, but not sportbikes.
v4
..... um
no more stoppies.....
:dunno_white:
:cry:
QuoteYou said it "eliminates the physical connection between the driver/rider and the most important part of the vehicle." That's about the definition of fly-by-wire. You made the relation by juxtaposition. I know what you meant. You can't weasel out of your point by saying "well that's not exactly what I said."
"Exactly" what I said? I didn't say they were the same nor had anything to do with one another other than being similarly useful. Just to remind you...since you have a problem reading:
I said:
Quote...it's about as beneficial as fly-by-wire.
Now, lets try replacing "fly-by-wire" with any other useless noun...like "a lifetime subscription to
Extreme Fidgeting". Let's see how that looks:
Quote...it's about as beneficial as a lifetime subscription to "Extreme Fidgeting."
According to you, saying such a thing would announce that anti-lock brakes and the obscure publication, "extreme fidgeting", share a firm connection...but in the real world we just call that a
simile. Since you're unfamiliar with this concept:
~a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between things of different kinds (usually formed with `like' or `as')
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Here we understand that the two nouns in a simile
are not the same thing, and that they are not actually in any way related. Such as saying "that man's as fat as a cow" or "chuck's being as big a pain in the ass as AJ."
So, no, it's not
exactly what I said...because it's, simply put, not what I said.
QuoteThat does not mean it does not have benefit.
I specifically stated it has a benefit.
QuoteYou might think that the cost of ABS outweighs its benefit, and that's fine.
I'm not sure who here spoke of cost, but ABS is fairly inexpensively produced. I avoid it because of it's complexity, weight, and sacrifice of braking performance...and, when it comes down to it, ABS has no idea whether what's going on is intentional or not. It's the very reason ASC and ABS are disconnected anytime I'm on the track...no matter what I'm in or on.
I own both an ABS and non-ABS bike. On the BMW I actuated it once in the rain on a hidden manhole lid while stopping. ABS kept the front wheel from locking up, and may have saved me from going down. On the GS I locked up the rear wheel once during an emergency stop, had to stay on the brake and fight to stay up to avoid a high-side. ABS would have helped in that situation also.
In brief, I think that ABS is a great system on the street and especially in the rain. Since my riding is 100% street (no off road or track) it fits my riding style and skills. Sure it's more expensive, but so is going down. Been there, done that, don't ever want to go back.
Quote from: werase643 on September 27, 2006, 05:20:19 PM
..... um
no more stoppies.....
:dunno_white:
:cry:
Actually, easier stopies.
ABS would be great if you can turn it off for twisties.
I think that it may be better to have on a bike than in a car. In a car, when you lock up the wheels, it's easy to regain controll. On a bike the rear wheel isn't so bad if it locks up for a split second, but the front wheel :o I've locked it up a couple of times without going down but it's scarey and once I did go down. Granted, I was hungover and if I wasn't I may have been able to save myself, but that's a whole other discussion :cheers: Of course it would be nice if you could turn it on and off as you desire.
Riding on ideal roads/track, yes it's most likely a hindrance, but as one who rides year 'round and has hit patches of ice, sand, gravel, oil, splattered raccon, etc. It could be nice at times. It would really be fun to try it out in the snow :icon_mrgreen:
But aside from the whole ABS argument, It's too bad they don't list the power for the new bandit. It would be interesting to see how much it goes up with the extra 50cc and the liquid cooling. I wonder if they're trying to get up there with the FZ1? they certanly are with the price :cry:
have fun :cheers:
Quote from: Larry on September 27, 2006, 06:37:03 PM
I own both an ABS and non-ABS bike. On the BMW I actuated it once in the rain on a hidden manhole lid while stopping. ABS kept the front wheel from locking up, and may have saved me from going down. On the GS I locked up the rear wheel once during an emergency stop, had to stay on the brake and fight to stay up to avoid a high-side. ABS would have helped in that situation also.
In brief, I think that ABS is a great system on the street and especially in the rain. Since my riding is 100% street (no off road or track) it fits my riding style and skills. Sure it's more expensive, but so is going down. Been there, done that, don't ever want to go back.
Does ABS on bikes come on both wheels or only front? Specialy on sv650.
Also i think ABS is like insurance. Sure it is not so good to pay every year and you might think you don't need it. But that one special day you will be very glad :)
So ABS is a $500 option that is rarely needed? Same thing could be said of helmets. As far as I know it will come on both front and rear brakes, but as long as it's on the front I'll be content. It's a lot easier to keep the rear brake pedal pressed in case of a lock up than modulate the front brake accordingly.
Quote from: werase643 on September 27, 2006, 05:20:19 PM
..... um
no more stoppies.....
:dunno_white:
:cry:
Definitely not. The only time I managed to lift the rear wheel off the ground on a motorcycle is when I made test brakings on an ABS equippde F650.
And, boy, did that thing brake brutally on dry pavement. I know that I'd never have dared to clam the calipers this tight without it.
Quote from: WAP on September 28, 2006, 07:19:19 AM
So ABS is a $500 option that is rarely needed? Same thing could be said of helmets. As far as I know it will come on both front and rear brakes, but as long as it's on the front I'll be content. It's a lot easier to keep the rear brake pedal pressed in case of a lock up than modulate the front brake accordingly.
It's good on rear too. You just press it and forget it. The ABS gets max stopping power of rear brake and prevents Mr.Highside and Mr. Lowside from visiting you in that bad moment.
Domas?
You have been taken in by the spiel. ABS does not give max stopping power. ABS prevents the wheels locking thats all......It does not allow you to brake safely in corners, you can loose traction and hi/low side without wheel-lock, and furthermore ABS does not reduce stopping distances, it prevents wheel-lock and skidding and gives you the chance to swerve to avoid the obstruction without loosing control, which in itself takes experience. In certain circumstances dependent on the road surface it can actually increase braking distance.
I can imagine a lot of unknowing and inexperienced newbies taking the option in the belief that it will make them a better rider and let them push themselves and their bikes to the limit without the risk of accident which is simply not true. If safety is your no1 concern forget the ABS and spend the 500 on some top class leathers and helmet.
Assuming that the cost of bleeding the brakes is not in the hundreds of dollar range, (as it is reportedly on some BMW models) I would give an ABS equipped bike serious consideration.
ABS strives to prevent wheel lockup. On a bike, wheel lockup is generally a bad thing.
Most of the test that I have seen on ABS equipped vehicles show that the braking distance difference between locked wheel panic braking and ABS equipped panic stops is small. The two scenarios that show a discernable difference is braking on loose gravel or loose snow. In these cases locked wheel braking was more effective than ABS, most likely because of built up snow or gravel wedges in front of a locked tire. I don't generally drive on loose snow so it isn't a factor for me.
As far as newbies go, I can see the ability to brake fully with both brakes, without fear of a lock-up, as a good thing. As far as fooling new riders into pressing their luck, isn't the sale of all those liter bikes more of a risk? At least here in the US most of the thrill seeking, risk taking, new riders I know went right to the GSXR 1000.
Mac is totally right on this one. ABS does not maximize braking, it just helps prevent locking up the brakes. It seems that the only people who want ABS on a bike are the same people who think they can make biking 'safe.' ABS might keep you upright under extreme braking, but it can very possibly lengthen you actual stopping distances.
Add in the fact that it adds complexity, weight, and expense to a bike, and I see no reason for it to be on any bike of mine. Riding bikes isn't safe, and many of us ride for that reason. Its a rush to feel the exeleration of speed and the unfiltered connection to the road. Why isolate yourself from what attracted many of us in the first place?
Introduction of new technologies always go through this trial/acceptance period both from the manufacturers and the users. the good ones, that work and are accessible stick around and the ones that aren't, come and go (this applies to bike technology and technology in general). Manufacturers are challenged with effectiveness and manufacturing costs, while consumers are challenged with change. age old story...
this at the same time that traction control is starting to be avaialbe on consumer bikes, will surley have some split camp opinions.
At the end of the day, only time will tell and we'll see in years to come, whether ABS stays or goes.
Someone explain to me how ABS will increase stopping distances. It only activates upon the start of wheel slippage. Therefore, properly performed threshold braking will not cause ABS to activate. So, the question is do you think you're talented enough to perform perfect threshold braking on any surface at any time without warning?
The only circumstance I've ever heard of that ABS can increase stopping distance is in the snow - not a likely situation for most riders.
I bet you anti-ABS guys think MotoGP riders would turn better lap times without traction control too eh?
jeff
Quote from: Jeff P on September 29, 2006, 06:22:02 AM
Someone explain to me how ABS will increase stopping distances. It only activates upon the start of wheel slippage. Therefore, properly performed threshold braking will not cause ABS to activate.
That's right. If you assume ABS gives you magic brakes and just grab a fistful of brake every time, you will have worse stopping distances than properly modulating your braking force. Thus if you are a godly-expert rider and brake perfectly you will never notice you are equipped with ABS. Until the one time that you make a mistake, or there's oil. Then it might save your life.
Quote from: Jeff P on September 29, 2006, 06:22:02 AM
Someone explain to me how ABS will increase stopping distances. It only activates upon the start of wheel slippage. Therefore, properly performed threshold braking will not cause ABS to activate. So, the question is do you think you're talented enough to perform perfect threshold braking on any surface at any time without warning?
The only circumstance I've ever heard of that ABS can increase stopping distance is in the snow - not a likely situation for most riders.
I bet you anti-ABS guys think MotoGP riders would turn better lap times without traction control too eh?
jeff
Contrary to what people, like Chuck here, will tell you, ABS does not "only activate with threshold braking". ABS operates by wheel sensors. When these sensors detect a noticeable difference in the rate of decelleration under braking conditions between the two wheels, it activates. It will also activate if the controller deams you to be decellerating faster than it feels is acceptible...even if both wheels remain at constant proportional velocities.
This means that ABS can activate during fairly routine events...such as braking over a bump or seam in a bridge or normal braking while opposing gravity (uphill...had it happen with a vfr). It's also the kind of thing that will activate on you when you switch into "oh shaZam! stop fast mode" because some kid/critter ran out in front of you while you're boogying at full lean...or "backing it in" a curve, even. That's where ABS really shines through for bikes; in the curves.
...just thought of a good example. Friend of mine was putting around on a police issue harley...they came with ABS, but the system had been removed from this bike (recall). He pulled to hot into a curve and ended up lowsiding. By the time he went down he was aimed far enough back into his lane that his just slid down it. It wasn't a bad accident...he got bruised and his bike only suffered a couple scratches. Instead of allowing the bike to lay over and lock up the wheels the ABS controller would have allowed him to brake safely...right into oncoming traffic, or straight across the 15ft shoulder and over a 50ft drop...but hey, he wouldn't have lowsided and scratched his bike up. The problem is that the system is designed to forcibly apply textbook braking proceedure to every situation...unfortunately, the textbook proceedure isn't always the best option...like when propper braking would try and force the bike out of a lean, which would pull you into oncoming traffic or over a cliff. Human error can put you in that predicament. ABS can make it your last predicament just as easily as make it one of many.
The bottom line is that ABS may be able to prevent certain incidents, but while being the culprit behind others. There's enough possiblillities of danger when riding as it is. I'd prefer to not add to it. When ever they make it a system that plugs into the back of our head so that it knows when and when not to activate according to your actual surroundings...then I'll dig it.
whats fundamental about ABS is that it prevents wheel-lock in a panic situation and allows you to keep control of the bike that in a skid you cant always do. It will NOT always stop the bike quicker than a non-ABS equiped bike. That factor depends on you as a rider, your experience and the road conditions. The system is not foolproof and has shortfalls as stated earlier. It can be confused by loose surfaces like snow sand and gravel, by quickly passing over surfaces offering different degrees of traction while in operation, by an oil/grease/diesel patch picked up on the tyre itself and if the wheel momentarily leaves the ground. When this happens ABS is worthless and its up to you to stop the bike. Manufactures may quote test results and all the bull***t but tests are done under repeatable and monitored conditions, not real world conditions. In addition to all that its just something else to go wrong. ABS bikes here in the UK will fail the annual MOT inspection if the system is fitted and not functioning and I have heard of bikes like early FJ12s being scrapped or the ABS being removed because the system is faulty and costs more to repair than the bike is actually worth. Not a problem if its new and under warranty but I cant see many people wanting the bike if its say 5 years old and 2nd or 3rdhand when the ABS is likely to fail leaving you with a huge bill because only the dealers know how to fix it and set it up and test it properly, 2ndhand values will take a tumble particularly if the system proves troublesome......anyone else remember the saga of the CX500 and the camchain tensioners??? Probably not as the average age in here is low. Nah I will stick to the leathers and lid thank you, I think they are better value, offer more in the way of protection, AND are transferable between bikes.
I've heard that one before. "I had to lay the bike down to avoid an accident." :cookoo:
Quote from: Chuck on September 29, 2006, 10:48:24 AM
I've heard that one before. "I had to lay the bike down to avoid an accident." :cookoo:
Yeah...just like how ABS is the same thing as extreme fidgeting...I mean holy shaZam! it's like you're trying to prove how big an ass you are. You're a luck son of a Buddha Loves You for never having had to chose the lesser of two damaging paths in life.
hey hey I got an idea...I'll buy an ABS system so my bike can magically sprout wings fly my ass out of any hairy situation.
Getting a little riled up there. You possibly need a valium or two. I'm just trying to keep people safe. The people who ask "Is ABS any good?" are the exact people who should have it. The people who need their wheels to lock up so that they can purposefully lowside to avoid travelling in the direction their bike is pointing need to not have it.
Quote from: Jarrett on September 27, 2006, 05:03:45 PMplease set me straight if I'm worng.
you are
wrong :icon_mrgreen:
Chuck, do you have/want a headlight modulator on your bike?