So I just had a few questions here from reading around posts and such:
1. I've heard people saying that they dont brake with all four fingers most likely becasue they cover the brake lever with a finger or two while riding around. During the MSF course the instructor said to not do that becasue if you need to stop suddenly, your fingers are in the way of the lever at max travel.
2. If your suppousta cover the brake when riding, but you also should have the balls of your feet on the pegs means that you dont cover the rear brake then right? For that matter should you even cover the front brake??
3. Hanging off in general...I mean im still pretty noob and only have ~4kmi under my belt but the bike feels MUCH more stable when I have a good grip on the tank with my legs. If I hang off I lose that grip, and stability. I find that I can go through a given corner much faster by not hanging off just becasue the bike isn't squirly on me. It seems like hanging off on the street without pucks seems like a bad idea in general.
4. Looking through corners...if I'm riding through the canyons when I'm riding behind a car, it gets weird looking through the corner becuse I feel that if I dont look at the car infront of me I'm gonna hit it. I know this doesnt apply to target fixing on a car coming the opposite way and becoming a hood ornament but I just dont trust ppl in general especially when I'm following close behind.
5. Push right lean right go right, or whatever it was...what is the "push" implying? I've never had problems getting my bike to turn or lean but i was just screwing around and i pushed forward on the right bar the bike would turn right. While I dont really think about what I'm doing too much when I ride, I feel that i "push" more at an angle parallel rather than perpendicular to the handebars
6. people riding in the canyons in a tshirt.... :nono: i mean really, how would that ever seem like a good idea?
.....if I remember more ill post em but that should be good for now
1. pass, brake with what feels comfortable, its 2 or 3 fingers for me.
2. the back brake has basically no power, so doesnt need to be covered, the front on the other hand is where its at. i don't cover the brake when riding, i use the engine most of the time to slow me down and just use the brakes if im coming in too hot.
3. generly you don't need to hang off the bike untill you reach a corner that your moving to fast to get the bike to lean far enough. then you start hanging to shift the weight, in normal riding there is no real need.
4. don't ride so close behind :D this sort of comes with time, you'll know where they are with out having to look directly at them,
5. you are doing it already with out knowing it, its counter steering, pust your right hand on the bar,whch will turnithe wheel slightly to the left, resulting in the bike leaning to the right. sounds weird, but go out and try it consiously(with out trying to lean the bike over)
6, some people are retards, its a fact of life :D
this is all my own opinion, so take it with a pinch of salt
have fun
Kinda funny when you learn to counter steer and don't even know it.
Guess that means your a naturual of sorts.
Pay attention to what weighting the inside/outside peg as you push the bar.
Its good to play like this in a parking lot, away from cars.
Imagine that the bike is flexy, as you weight different peg/bar combos. It will help you understand turning and control.
I think its always good to talk to people and get their take on how the turn, can learn a lot!
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
5. Push right lean right go right, or whatever it was...what is the "push" implying? I've never had problems getting my bike to turn or lean but i was just screwing around and i pushed forward on the right bar the bike would turn right.
Some bike require a lot of counter steering. For a new rider, this takes a conscious effort sometimes. The GS is intuitive to ride and there isn't really a need to work on counter steering IMO. Hop on a race replica bike and you'll figure out exactly what "Push right, lean right, go right" means!
-Turd.
Quote1. I've heard people saying that they dont brake with all four fingers most likely becasue they cover the brake lever with a finger or two while riding around. During the MSF course the instructor said to not do that becasue if you need to stop suddenly, your fingers are in the way of the lever at max travel.
Not if the lever is adjusted properly. Using two finger gives you better grip on the bars. I stoppie using only one finger for braking - it depends on bike but most modern one are just fine with two fingers. I depends on your forearm strength too.
Quote
2. If your suppousta cover the brake when riding, but you also should have the balls of your feet on the pegs means that you dont cover the rear brake then right? For that matter should you even cover the front brake??
Cover you brakes. Back brake isn't a huge contributor in braking power. Unless you are getting sporty, balls of your feet on peg isn't so important.
Quote3. Hanging off in general...I mean im still pretty noob and only have ~4kmi under my belt but the bike feels MUCH more stable when I have a good grip on the tank with my legs. If I hang off I lose that grip, and stability. I find that I can go through a given corner much faster by not hanging off just becasue the bike isn't squirly on me. It seems like hanging off on the street without pucks seems like a bad idea in general.
Word. (There are *exceptions*)
Quote
5. Push right lean right go right, or whatever it was...what is the "push" implying? I've never had problems getting my bike to turn or lean but i was just screwing around and i pushed forward on the right bar the bike would turn right. While I dont really think about what I'm doing too much when I ride, I feel that i "push" more at an angle parallel rather than perpendicular to the handebars
Countersteering is nature (to a certain extent). It has to do with people's (most animal's) habit to go the easy route. To not countersteering require tremendous torque... so your lizard brain tend not to do it etc...
Quote6. people riding in the canyons in a tshirt.... :nono: i mean really, how would that ever seem like a good idea?
Never in retrospect. :thumb:
I can see a great deal of diversity brewing here.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
1. I've heard people saying that they dont brake with all four fingers most likely becasue they cover the brake lever with a finger or two while riding around. During the MSF course the instructor said to not do that becasue if you need to stop suddenly, your fingers are in the way of the lever at max travel.
The MSF reason for using all fingers is force and control. You have the most force and the best control if you use all your muscles of your hand, and getting into the habit of using all fingers means that force & control is at your immediate command when needed. I've heard the arguments that less is better -- I don't believe them.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
2. If your suppousta cover the brake when riding, but you also should have the balls of your feet on the pegs means that you dont cover the rear brake then right? For that matter should you even cover the front brake??
O contraire -- I would never recommend that you cover the front or rear brake unless you intend to use these controls -- such as if you're following an idiot, are in stop & go traffic, creeping along at intersections, etc. Covering the front brake means you have less control of the throttle -- limiting your fine motor skill. Keeping the balls of your feet on the pegs also means an inadvertent twitch or movement does not have any effect on the rear brake or gear shifter.
The only control I'd consider covering is the clutch, and there is usually no need unless you're in traffic. But then your left hand isn't really doing anything else except thumbing the turn signals. Covering reduces your reaction time. There's a time and place for it.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
3. Hanging off in general...I mean im still pretty noob and only have ~4kmi under my belt but the bike feels MUCH more stable when I have a good grip on the tank with my legs. If I hang off I lose that grip, and stability. I find that I can go through a given corner much faster by not hanging off just becasue the bike isn't squirly on me. It seems like hanging off on the street without pucks seems like a bad idea in general.
Unless you're on the track and trying to beat your buddy around a corner, there's no need to hang off. Like you said, if you want to be stable at speed, lean with the motorcycle. Hanging off shifts the center of gravity outside the plane of the motorcycle, letting the bike travel more upright in a corner so you don't need to straighten it up as far after the corner. In normal riding practice you don't need to do it. If you want to you can -- you just don't need to in normal riding situations.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
4. Looking through corners...if I'm riding through the canyons when I'm riding behind a car, it gets weird looking through the corner becuse I feel that if I dont look at the car infront of me I'm gonna hit it. I know this doesnt apply to target fixing on a car coming the opposite way and becoming a hood ornament but I just dont trust ppl in general especially when I'm following close behind.
Easily solved -- don't follow so close behind. But keep looking through the corners -- use an outside - inside outside path of travel.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
5. Push right lean right go right, or whatever it was...what is the "push" implying? I've never had problems getting my bike to turn or lean but i was just screwing around and i pushed for
ward on the right bar the bike would turn right. While I dont really think about what I'm doing too much when I ride, I feel that i "push" more at an angle parallel rather than perpendicular to the handebars
PRESS right, go right. That's countersteering. When your press right, you nudge the center of gravity of the bike to the right by forcing the front wheel slightly to the left. The bike then leans right and you go right. (Or that's the way I understand it...)
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
6. people riding in the canyons in a tshirt.... :nono: i mean really, how would that ever seem like a good idea?
T-Shirt, shorts and flip-flops. Feels cool, but road rash isn't. Everyone accepts a level of risk when they ride. (Remember, it's Unit II in your RiderCourse Handbook.) If you win then you're cool -- if you lose you lose big. Not everybody puts their brain in gear when they shift into 1st.
Okay you other expert riders -- let the fur fly....
Awesome Redshift :thumb: Well said :bowdown:
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
1. I've heard people saying that they dont brake with all four fingers most likely becasue they cover the brake lever with a finger or two while riding around. During the MSF course the instructor said to not do that becasue if you need to stop suddenly, your fingers are in the way of the lever at max travel.
Depends on how much travel you have. On my TL the lever is adjustable. I keep it covered with just a couple fingers all the time and it doesn't interfere. On my XS I don't have enough travel.
Normal braking I use all my fingers.
Quote2. If your suppousta cover the brake when riding, but you also should have the balls of your feet on the pegs means that you dont cover the rear brake then right? For that matter should you even cover the front brake??
Never "cover" the rear brake. You're body's not in a good postion on a standard or sport bike...you could sneeze and lock the bike up.
Quote3. Hanging off in general...I mean im still pretty noob and only have ~4kmi under my belt but the bike feels MUCH more stable when I have a good grip on the tank with my legs. If I hang off I lose that grip, and stability. I find that I can go through a given corner much faster by not hanging off just becasue the bike isn't squirly on me. It seems like hanging off on the street without pucks seems like a bad idea in general.
"Hanging" is style...there's many styles. Throwing your body weight off the side of the bike decreases the amount of steering input and lean necessary to pull off a turn. There's other ways around it, though...like leaning more. I do the lean thing.
Quote4. Looking through corners...if I'm riding through the canyons when I'm riding behind a car, it gets weird looking through the corner becuse I feel that if I dont look at the car infront of me I'm gonna hit it. I know this doesnt apply to target fixing on a car coming the opposite way and becoming a hood ornament but I just dont trust ppl in general especially when I'm following close behind.
It's not that bad to fixate on a car moving ahead of you. Just wait patiently for a good place to pass.
Quote5. Push right lean right go right, or whatever it was...what is the "push" implying? I've never had problems getting my bike to turn or lean but i was just screwing around and i pushed forward on the right bar the bike would turn right. While I dont really think about what I'm doing too much when I ride, I feel that i "push" more at an angle parallel rather than perpendicular to the handebars
You shouldn't be thinking about this very hard...just ride the bike. Propper proceedure will develope with experience.
I'm assuming that last one was rhetorical.
I use two fingers on the lever, but I dont cover it, unless I am predicting that I will need to come to a stop rather quickly(rush hour traffic)
I have heard from countless racers to only use two fingers, but that is racing and not street riding, for the street I would use what is most comfatable.
Don't cover the rear break, there is really never a good reason that you would need alot of rear break suddenly. If it is time to stop quickly use the front and maybe just a little rear. The rear brake is basically useless on a panic stop, infact you are more prone to lock it up than it do any good.
So from what I take it, the front brake really doesnt matter, whatever is comfortable...same goes with the 2 or 4 fingers.
Now when your riding though, where are you suppousta keep your feet? I myself don't cover the rear brake, but during normal riding I have the arch of my feet on the pegs. During more 'spirited' riding I'll move to the balls of my feet on the peg though. I remeber someone saying that you could grip the peg with your toes if you werent wearing boots. Again is this a matter of prefrence or do you get more control/lean angle clearance from keeping the balls of your feet on the pegs, or is the amount of time it would take to brake/shift make it undesirable?
As far as the whole press right thing goes, I'm almost shocked. I though I would get shot down asking that but it turns out to be true. I don't know if its worth changing my riding style...I dont plan to buy a crotch rocket ever, Id feel perfectly comfortable staying on an SV650/monster ish.
I keep the fronts of my feet on the pegs...as far back as I can go without worrying about slipping. Bt that's what's comfortable with me. You should put your feet where you're comfortable having them.
If you really want to understand countersteering and lots of the other principles that keep your bike up and moving around turns, etc pick up a copy of Proficient Motorcycling. I think it was only about 16 bucks at borders. A good part of the book is devoted to this stuff and it explains it without getting too scientific or technical. The rest deals with riding smart, excellent for beginners like me and I'd imagine it would be a good refresher for someone with plenty of miles under their belt.
My take on Riding Technique is this:
You may never really know what is right, but let's hope what you recognize as wrong doesn't hurt.
Never stop learning. Be aware of what you're doing and what's around you.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 11:17:34 PM
So from what I take it, the front brake really doesnt matter, whatever is comfortable...same goes with the 2 or 4 fingers.
rear brake isnt nearly as effective as front. I think you meant to say the rear brake doesnt really matter...I hope thats what you meant. the front is super important.
What is this with balls on the pegs all the time. For normal road riding it really isn't neccessary. The rear brake isnt powerfull enough to lock your bike up if you were ever ever ever to accidentally sneeze and tap it. The gear level you keep your foot under. So foot under gear lever, and foot angled to the side away from the rear brake. Its how i've always ridden on the road. If you keep the bridge of your foot on the pegs you have better grip and your feet aint going to slip nowhere plus with them angled slightly down and away from the bike you don't touch anything. The only time i move my feet on the pegs is on the track when im hanging off around a corner. On most modern sports bikes your likely to lock up your rear brake more by having the balls of your feet on the pegs. Because they are all angled forward and the riding position is lent forward a small bump would jolt your foot easily of the peg and streight into the lever anyway.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
2. If your suppousta cover the brake when riding, but you also should have the balls of your feet on the pegs means that you dont cover the rear brake then right?
Seperate the two issues - You are supposed to cover the front brake. Riding with the balls of your feet on the pegs gives you better control/connection to the bike; weighing the outside peg is one example.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
For that matter should you even cover the front brake?
Yes.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
3. Hanging off in general...I mean im still pretty noob and only have ~4kmi under my belt but the bike feels MUCH more stable when I have a good grip on the tank with my legs. If I hang off I lose that grip, and stability. I find that I can go through a given corner much faster by not hanging off just becasue the bike isn't squirly on me.
It will feel more stable because it's one less thing to think about. I don't hangoff anymore, as I use body english, instead. Hanging off is for the track. Or to attract popo.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
4. Looking through corners...if I'm riding through the canyons when I'm riding behind a car, it gets weird looking through the corner becuse I feel that if I dont look at the car infront of me I'm gonna hit it. I know this doesnt apply to target fixing on a car coming the opposite way and becoming a hood ornament but I just dont trust ppl in general especially when I'm following close behind.
Yeah, I hate that, too. I back off and let them get ahead in the straights, so I can speed up and enjoy the next set of corners before I hav to slow down for them again.
Quote from: vsboxerboy on November 01, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
5. While I dont really think about what I'm doing too much when I ride, I feel that i "push" more at an angle parallel rather than perpendicular to the handebars
This is called pivot steering. You want to push the bars on the plane that they rotate on, it requires less energy, and makes countersteering easier and quicker.
Quote from: Kasumi on November 02, 2006, 05:10:21 PM
On most modern sports bikes your likely to lock up your rear brake more by having the balls of your feet on the pegs. Because they are all angled forward and the riding position is lent forward a small bump would jolt your foot easily of the peg and streight into the lever anyway.
you are confused. with the balls of your feet on the pegs you arent anywhere near the bake lever. I am more comfortable riding all the time with the balls of my feet on the pegs-better weight distribution I think.
Quote from: pantablo on November 02, 2006, 04:27:05 PM
rear brake isnt nearly as effective as front. I think you meant to say the rear brake doesnt really matter...I hope thats what you meant. the front is super important.
What I meant to say isn't that the front brake isn't important, but rather covering vs not covering the front brake is a matter of personal prefrence.
Quote from: scratch on November 02, 2006, 06:19:14 PM
This is called pivot steering. You want to push the bars on the plane that they rotate on, it requires less energy, and makes countersteering easier and quicker.
That makes alot of sense, I've noticed that the bike is much easier to turn this way, I'm just not used to it yet. I've also noticed that I can put less weight on the bars, which I hear is :thumb: when using the countersteer technique
Quote from: Kasumi on November 02, 2006, 05:10:21 PM
The gear level you keep your foot under. So foot under gear lever, and foot angled to the side away from the rear brake.
Thats exactly how I ride around town etc, I just move my feet up when in the twisties.
...it does seem in general that alot of people have alot of different riding styles
Quote from: RedShift on November 01, 2006, 06:01:24 PM
O contraire -- I would never recommend that you cover the front or rear brake unless you intend to use these controls -- such as if you're following an idiot, are in stop & go traffic, creeping along at intersections, etc. Covering the front brake means you have less control of the throttle -- limiting your fine motor skill. Keeping the balls of your feet on the pegs also means an inadvertent twitch or movement does not have any effect on the rear brake or gear shifter.
The only control I'd consider covering is the clutch, and there is usually no need unless you're in traffic. But then your left hand isn't really doing anything else except thumbing the turn signals. Covering reduces your reaction time. There's a time and place for it.
I strongly disagree, or my interpretation of 'inteding to use these controls' is different. The font brake should be covered any time you may need to use it. So, on the track, no covering. On the street, always cover the front brake, because you never know when you'll need it and if you have it covered your reaction time - and therefore total stopping distance - will be significantly reduced. The throttle doesn't have such fine control that you can't cover the brake with two fingers and work the throttle with the other two, as long as you practice the technique a little. This is especially true on a relatively low-powered bike such as the GS.
one thing i've seen the effects of is two-fingering the front brake on the street + collision = broken fingers. I had a friend who was going down the road when someone pulled out in front of him, he t-boned them and the brake lever was pushed in, smashing his two "throttle" fingers.
just a caution. everything has it's uses... besides, as was previously mentioned, theres going to many riding styles for everyone. if one of you were to get in my driver's seat, you'd probably be uncomfortable as all get out because i sit so oddly (recaro buckets...mmmmcomfort) but for me, i have better control that way. get comfortable, experiment, just make sure you do so safely.
Quote from: ledfingers on November 03, 2006, 04:56:12 PM
one thing i've seen the effects of is two-fingering the front brake on the street + collision = broken fingers. I had a friend who was going down the road when someone pulled out in front of him, he t-boned them and the brake lever was pushed in, smashing his two "throttle" fingers.
Time to get shorties (levers that is). :icon_twisted:
Quote from: che mike on November 03, 2006, 04:48:03 PM
... my interpretation of 'inteding to use these controls' is different. ...
I accept your point, and in general I think we are of a common mind. Practice is everything, and if it works for you and you're comfotable, go with it.
There are lots of interpretations of the right way to ride. Consider the level of risk you are accepting.