Ok, here's my problem, when I press the start button the starter spins but the crank doesn't move. Is the "Crankshaft Gear" supposed to move freely on the crank? Mine does and I'm wondering if there is a keeper key in there or something that engages the gear on the crankshaft to spin the crankshaft when the starter is on. I haven't pulled off the crankshaft bolt because I have to borrow a friend's impact wrench to get it off. It just seems odd to me that the crank shaft gear freewheels.
Also just for curiosity sake how does the starter engage and disengage, I'm familiar with how a car spring loaded starter works, but how does it work on a bike? The "starter idle gear" is free to move in and out on its center shaft. I noticed on the crank case cover it only allows it so slide a certain distance, but there wasn't a spring or anything on the shaft.
Any expertise is greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/2179000-2179999/2179512_50_full.jpg)
The "Crankshaft Gear" has 3 dogs in the starter clutch which engage it to the crank shaft when the starter spins but will free wheel when the engine spins.
The diagram may help:
http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/300_0027/starter_clutch/starter_clutch.cfm?man=su&groupid=3110&parent=3070
So you think I should replace the springs and rollers in the starter clutch? And that will allow the starter to turn the crank properly?
Thanks.
It is possible that some (or all) of the dogs (rollers) are not engaging. Maybe the springs are bad or are gummed up The pins or rollers could be worn. Since they are not expensive, might as well replace it all when you have it apart. At least clean them add see if that helps.
Quote from: 68gtcs on November 13, 2006, 10:43:36 PM
Also just for curiosity sake how does the starter engage and disengage...
Glad you asked! I sorta went through the same thing, except my starter gear (the big one) was stuck on the rotor (the one with the orange magnets). From that experience came THIS FAQ (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=14008.0).
The springs in the clutch that push the dogs onto the crankshaft may be shot. Regardless, you will have to pull the rotor to get to them.
Look HERE (http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=331&folderid=180599&groupid=41309&folderview=thumbs&ck=) for the way I made a tool to pull my rotor.
If you look over the photo sections of my bellsouth page, you may see some other tips on GS wrenching.
On the other hand, dgyver's forgotten more about the GS than I will know. :laugh:
I figured you would be chiming in.
The sad part of that is I know I have forgotten stuff but I cannot remember what I forgot.
Thanks for the help y'all, I'll take it apart tonight and see if I can clean it up and make it work. If not looks like I'd be ordering some new parts, thanks again for the help, I'll keep you posted on the results.
Is it possible that I have an incorrect starter in my bike????
I took apart the starter clutch and cleaned everything up. I put it back together and still same thing, this is what I noticed.
My starter turns the crank in a CLOCK-WISE rotation, which is just freewheels all day long. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the crank must be turned in a counter-clock-wise rotation to start and put power to the wheel. The clutch pack locks up, like I would expect it to, when I turn it by hand in a counter-clock-wise rotation.
If my assumptions are correct, how can the starter be turning the gears in the wrong direction? Wrong year starter? Something wired backwards?
Again, thanks for your inputs.....
Ok, here's a picture of what is going on....
(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/2179000-2179999/2179512_51_full.jpg)
My starter motor model number is 31100-20C00, which is the same number listed on the Ron Ayers website.
is your battey connected right? the - onthe - and + on +
i know its a off chance but....
Yea what he said, battery fitted right ??? though I have seen it blow fuses on the one ocassion I slapped it in backwards ... but that was a virago 535
Maybe the starter was put together backwards. I believe the started body is ground, so I believe it cannot be wired backwards. Hooking up the - ve to it wont do anything if battery is on right ... so something else inside the starter. Magnets or brushes or somehting can be reversed.
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: 68gtcs on November 14, 2006, 08:14:27 PM
Ok, here's a picture of what is going on....
(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/2179000-2179999/2179512_51_full.jpg)
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/41/41309/folders/180855/1345414startermovesallcropanote.jpg)
hmmmm...wierd.
Try wiring the motor directly to the battery and see if it runs the correct way.
The starter body should be grounded, as Srinath said, But I would have to take a closer look to see how you could get it to run backwards.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/eimoytiana/wire.jpg
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/eimoytiana/wire-1.jpg)
I don't know, but this bugs me. I'll take a look at my set up later today.
When the starter is directly connected to the battery with the ground going through the chassis and the + wire going to the node, it spins clock-wise.
I hooked the starter chassis to + and the node to - and the starter spun in the counter-clock-wise direction.
The bike runs great if you pop start it, so I would think the battery is not in backwards, but I will check it tonight when I get home.
Where did you get this bike? has someone else been working on it?
I bought it on craigslist, the guy had it for 1.5 years. He said it has a starter relay problem, which it does, the power and starter wire nides are coming out of the relay. But, as it turns out thats not the only problem keeping the bike from starting when you press the button.
I bought the bike this past weekend, so really I no nothing about the history of the bike. Its got a little cam or valve knock to it, but it runs great once you pop start it.
So is it possible the starter was rebuilt incorrectly, is this something I can fix? Anyone know what to look for or how to fix it?
Thanks.
Its possible that somehting was installed backwards. now I haven't split a GS starter but the virago starter I split last year ... sheesh, I dont remember ...
However I have seen the oil pump drive gear on a savage installed backwards ... POS killed it.
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: 68gtcs on November 15, 2006, 08:52:04 AM
I bought it on craigslist, the guy had it for 1.5 years. He said it has a starter relay problem, which it does, the power and starter wire nides are coming out of the relay.
OK..
HE said it had a starter relay problem. At this point I also would assume the worst, that the PO opened the starter and possibly tried to rebuild it.
Quote
- to chassis and the + to the node, it spins clock-wise.
+ to chassis and the - to the node, it spins counter-clock-wise.
I used to sell AC/DC motors (industrial 50hp+) and I can't picture what could be done to a starter motor that would reverse the polarity and make it spin the wrong way with the correct connection. I know it can be done but I am not sure how you would do it with a starter motor.
Have you checked Starwalt's site? He may have something that could help. Otherwise I will tear into one of my spare starters tonight and see if I can recreate your symptoms.
http://www.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/showschematic~dept_id~710217.asp
look at item 8. The one attached to the bolt(node) is the + bushing/brush The other Is your - bushing and should be grounded to the chassis somehow.
from the diagram it looks like it would be impossible to reverse these bushings, because of the shape of the plate they are on. I don't have a motor in front of me to make any real determination. But I would guess they somehow swapped these bushings.
I believe that is the only way they could have reversed the polarity of the motor to make it turn the WRONG way with the RIGHT connection.
Again, just a guess. Why don't you split your motor apart and rebuild it according to this diagram. ( I believe Clymers has a better diagram and maybe a how too.)
On my virago I believe I had a ring gear and there were 2 idlers fitted on to a plate. the ring gear was the one that was attached to the nose, the idlers were meshing into the starters gear inside the starter assy. If that was installed reversed maybe it can create this problem.
Cool.
Srinath.
Looking at my starter there are etched in tick marks, they look like this l l
One set is on the main cylinder sleeve where it makes contact with front side end casing (the side adjacent to the output gear), the other set of marks are on the opposite end of the starter, on the molded butt end cap. Are these supposed to be adjacent to each other? If so mine are not. Any way this could effect the rotation?
Brushes are worn causing it to turn Backwards.
Quote from: Jughead on November 15, 2006, 01:55:39 PM
Brushes are worn causing it to turn Backwards.
Please xplain how that would cause it to turn backwards.
Just Seen it happen Before in Power tools. :dunno_white: :dunno_white: Can't Explain How unless it only Starts in the Direction of less Resistance.
that actually makes sense.
When the motor turns, the armature passes through where the poles of the electromagnet flip. Because of the flip, the north pole of the electromagnet is always above the axle so it can repel the field magnet's north pole and attract the field magnet's south pole.
If the brushes were worn down too much it might be possible to have a motor that turns backwards. BUT I think the real symptom would be a motor that would start in both directions not just one.
Wouldn't a high torgue DC motor like this have something that would prevent it from starting to turn in the wrong direction? I know small fan motors have .......damnit I don't remember the name, anyway
---------
68gtcs - how do your brushes look?
The only way to reverse direction of a DC series- wound motor, such as a starter motor is to reverse the current flow through the armature relative to the field winding. Same rule applies to shunt, and compound wound machines. Tick marks indicate its been taken apart at some stage. Highly possible something has been incorrectly connected inside when it was dismantled. Take it to an auto-electrician and explain the fault or find a replacement at a breakers. Worn brushes do not lead to a reversal in direction, either with any type of DC motor or the AC Universal type used in power tools. To reverse direction you must reverse current flow.
I PM'd you, but had another thought.
First the PM thought.
Sledge is right, the current would have to be reversed...as in the battery connected backward. No withstanding the charging/electrics issues involved -- I don't know that the bike would run like that -- the starter motor would turn backward.
Second thought -- inspired by Sledge -- Someone may have reassembled the starter housing with the magnets backward.
This would reverse the poles....any lights coming on now?
If you can read the label on the motor and the gear shaft is at the top, this is correct.
The || marks he mentions earlier DO NOT align up. The marks on the magnet housing are at the output gear end. The marks on the brush end are on the opposite end.
Now if someone managed to remove the magnets...you know just for fun...and put them in wrong, then the || marks would be correct, but the thing would still run backward.
If you have a Haynes manual, page 8-18 shows the || marks (gray & white pics).
I see another photo oppportunity coming.
Starwalt??
I am assuming its a series-motor but after some thought and your comments I am not 100% certain. Does the starter motor have a permanent field? i.e is the field formed by permanent magnets surrounding the armature. Or is the field formed by wound coils energised at the same time as the armature.?
If the motor has been apart, then reasseambled with the brushgear 180deg out it will also cause the motor to reverse. In effect the polararity of the brushboxes will have transposed and current flow through the armature will have been reveresed. Check the indexing marks carefully, see if they will match up if the endplate is moved through 180deg.
Ok, here is the verdict......
I took the starter apart and turned the starter sleeve around 1/2 way, meaning that the end that was near the output shaft is now adjacent to the butt or the starter. I reassembled the starter, hit it with 12v and it turned in the other direction (counterclockwise), which is what I need!!
I put the starter back in the bike, installed the intermediate gear and the starter gear engaged the crankshaft.
I have not started the bike yet, I have cranked on it just slightly because I'm waiting for the RTV to completely dry. Tomorrow I'll fill it with oil and hopefully take it for a spin.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks for everyone's help.
Sorted :thumb:
wow a lot of work but sweet ending
Its fixed, runs great!! Thanks to everyone for their help, good group here!
:cheers:
Have some kool-aide. :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: 68gtcs on November 16, 2006, 05:56:51 PM
Its fixed, runs great!! Thanks to everyone for their help, good group here!
That's what we are here for...that and the chicks...chicks dig guys (or gals if they are oriented that way) that can fix stuff.
Sledge's comments triggered the sleeve/magnet idea. I give him the credit for the idea genesis.
Who'd have thought anyone would assemble the motor magnet sleeve/housing backward?
Man, what a great prank to pull on someone! :o
Sledge - Yep, the GS starter motor is PM device. You are correct about reversing the field connection on a field wound motor. It will reverse the direction. The stock 89 + starter motor cannot have the brush mount reversed either. The brush positive lead is attached to the connection stud and is insulated from the housing. The brush negative lead is attached to the brush plate...attached to the housing end piece.
That reminds me...on some of the starters I have purchased via ebay, the PO has messed it up because they proceeded to turn the positive lead stud without holding the jam nut properly. To do this, a thin wrench may be required beneath the electrical lug. The top nut, electrical lug, and jam nut must be removed to remove the brush mounting plate correctly.
This does not address the fun of trying to assemble the motor without proper brush removal.
And don't forget to reinstall the brushes in the correct wear orientation either. If not, the worn edges can get caught in the spaces in the armature contact.
Details, details, details.... :laugh:
starwalt?
I am not taking all the kudos for this one......call it 50/50 :thumb: