OK that bike had a loose cam chain from some dolt thinking it was a great idea to have a flat bar with holes in it to work like a Cam chain tensioner ... :cookoo: and another dolt riding it in spite of it making scraping noises and sounding like it was about to die.
So being a cam drive on the right ... the loose cam chain has sawed itself a nice groove in the lower case, the cylinder and the head after it went through the cam chain guides.
I doubt its affecting strength in any of the 3 locations, cos there is atleast 1 inch of aluminum before it blows a hole and its barely made 1/8th in the worst location (case).
Now this bike has ball bearings for its crank and counter balancer and most of the others like clutch etc. Only plain bearings are in the head for the cam shafts. AKA a million mile bottom end and a 20 mile top end. :thumb: ...
Now the head didn't want to come off with the motor in the frame, but what was in the way was one tall stud sticking through. I lifted the head and put a block under it and used a pair of pliers to remove that stud. The head came easy after that. Now is that a problem ??? Why doesn't suzuki have bolts like kawi does ??? I know I know whatever ... anyway ...
The cylinder is excellent according to my car mechanic. Piston should be fine he said and it looks good from the top he said. So ... I am planning to not take it off. And this bike has atleast 2 locator dowels and 2 bolts holding the cylinder on the case. Now does mean base gasket will be likely OK ??? I actually replaced the head gasket on my first savage and didn't touch the base gasket and was OK just as a reference.
Then I am planning to replace the guides with new and swap the cam chain and sprokets (I have one matched set from the motor that broke a valve). I am also going to fill the trenches in the case with aluminum weld and sand them back down flat, mainly to keep the guide from dropping in there and that might cause the cam chain to hit stuff I am afraid. So would that be enough. I cannot get to the whole area where it was trenched and fill it all, maybe a bit on the bottom side of the head and the case. But I think it will be just about what I can count on to have a good cam guide keep the chain away from there.
Heck I wish I could fab up something in rubber to put in there that will soak up oil and be slippery and stay intact like the material they put on the cam chain guides. Does any one have an idea of what I can use to do that ... thin but strong and slippery and takes in oil and stays intact on being rubbed by a cam chain. How about delrin - a sheet of it cut to shape and size - lower case has a couple of un used threaded holes ... so just the top I need to figure out a way of retaining it.
Cool.
Srinath.
I'm not sure about the wear properties of Delrin but it's worth looking into. What are the guides on the GS made of? Some kind of heavy nylon I think. Is it not possible to use the head and cylinder from the other motor (the one with the broken valve)?
The other motor has a solid bottom end, but the valves are beat up (other than the broken one) the other 3 are gouged and marred from the busted head of the valve that hammered the cylinder walls, holed the piston and chewed the head. Its basically done. That was why I replaced the motor last year, but the gorilla that rode it ignored the scraping noises it made as well as the loose cam chain noise it must have made for several miles before it died. if I do a bottom end swap, I'd put that bottom with this top end. Otherwise, this motor will have to do ...
Cam chain guides are usually rubber - a semi hard rubber. Excellent material for that purpose. Will take 900 degrees, soak up oil, stay soft and never wear even when rubbed by a chain. Really good stuff. I wish they'd have slapped a slider on the inside of the cam chain tunnel. Would have totally saved me a ton of grief.
Cool.
Srinath.
UHMW (ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene) would make a better wear-resisting material than Delrin. Delrin is actually very "machinable", which is what the chain would do to it if it touched the stuff.
OK that sounds great ... Maybe I can make up my own cam chain guide ... There has to be a way to screw it into the upper cylinder wall as well. I may be able to use the rop cam guide retaining bolt ... let me see if I can get some of that UHMW crap. It soaks oil right ... oleophilic is it that they say ...
Cool.
Srinath.
Delrin is good --DRY-- bearing material. Don't know how it will behave in the heat and oil of an engine case. It is also way expensive compared to other materials.
Why do you care if the material can absorb oil?
If the cam chain slips over it and doesn't wear it away -- job done.
Why can't an original cam chain tensioner be reinstalled? Was that why they shade-tree-fix method to begin with?
How do you like the savage?
I am thinking about one for my girlfriend
Quote from: jdanna on November 27, 2006, 08:27:52 PM
How do you like the savage?
I am thinking about one for my girlfriend
The Savage is a GREAT bike to start on. I loved that bike and hate that I am selling it to a friend.
Quote from: seshadri_srinath on November 27, 2006, 10:44:47 AM
OK that sounds great ... Maybe I can make up my own cam chain guide ... There has to be a way to screw it into the upper cylinder wall as well. I may be able to use the rop cam guide retaining bolt ... let me see if I can get some of that UHMW crap. It soaks oil right ... oleophilic is it that they say ...
Sorry to rain on your parade, but PE (that's what UMHW is) has many good properties, but temperature resistance is not one of them. I'd be surprised if that worked inside a combustion engine.
As for oleophilic: No, it won't soak up oil, but oil will adhere well to its surface (while water is repelled).
We buy Engineering plastics from this company, the website holds lots of info.
http://www.bayplastics.co.uk/menu%20list/engineering%20materials%20-%20product%20list.htm
Starwalt: The original CCT can be installed, but the original guides and the cam chain also seemed to have so much wear it appeared to have the CCT stretched out to its limit. So I added 1/2 inch with a new eyelet. That made it work in the first 1/4 of its travel. With new guides with more meat on them and the better (just marginally ... but if you can see it, its definetly better IMHO) cam chain and cam and crank sprokets I may have to go back to the original hole which I can.
OK Plastic will melt. Yea OK I shouldv've known. BTW I have seen zip ties on the wiring and stuff in the inside of motors. They do go brittle, but its not much of a problem ??? cant the plastic take 250-300 degrees. I guess the cylinder walls will get hotter than just 250-300. the oil will get to 300 or so, may be that's why the zip ties and wiring for alternators all seem to hold up just fine.
Jdanna: This is my second and fourth savage. I had it for a while and sold it back to the guy I got it from, then it came back. I have put my third savage back on the road after rebuilding it and my first was great, never even opened it. It has some design flaws and some special constraints while riding or starting it. You're rolling along, and you pull the clutch in and it stalls, you should not ever let the clutch out and try to start it in first or second. Its gotta be started with the starter. Also the old 4 speeds sometimes leave you inbetween gears. Like you're rolling along in 4th. You see an possible obstacle, you pull in the clutch. 2 seconds later your lane clears up. You'd be too slow for 4th and too fast for 3rd. Blame the wide ratios. The other words of caution are - never hit the start button back to back. The motor could still be spinning, and will break the teeth on the idler or crank gears. make sure the decompression mechanism is working, else it will break the idler or break the teeth on the gear.
The motor will leak oil. There is a fix for it though. Its got a nice system for oiling the cams and rockers etc. The cams spin in a puddle of oil. Which other bikes like the eli's or the EX series or several others do not have. The bike is simple by nature, however some things have been stupidly complicated. You cant take either case off without taking off the foot peg carrier, which also carries the motor mounts. And no center stand means ... you're screwed ...
Lots of little little things.
If you ask me though ... there is better starting bikes out there. Kawi 454, the virago 535 etc.
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: seshadri_srinath on November 28, 2006, 06:50:19 AMOK Plastic will melt. Yea OK I shouldv've known. BTW I have seen zip ties on the wiring and stuff in the inside of motors. They do go brittle, but its not much of a problem ??? cant the plastic take 250-300 degrees. I guess the cylinder walls will get hotter than just 250-300. the oil will get to 300 or so, may be that's why the zip ties and wiring for alternators all seem to hold up just fine.
Problem is that it's PE, which has one of the lowest melting points among plastics. Zip ties are Nylon, which can take temperatures in excess of 200°C/390°F. PE OTOH starts to become soft around 100°C / 210°F (That's for standard PE; UHMW may be a bit higher, but not much.)
i thought cam guides were made of phenolic?(sic)
every old kaw ive opened had them broken and worn
most of the gs's showed wear but never broke(except in the case of catastrophic failure wich ive had afew of)
i belive tou can buy a masterlink cam chain for these from k&l supply
they are quad stake type have used on old kz's without fail.
This cam chain is gear and chain, I doubt I can master link it. heck I doubt I can even get it removed. Its freaking tiny.
Good to know that kawi's are lousy for these as well. Those idiots never cease to amaze me. bad vlaves, bad cam guides. Let see what other bits buried deep in the motor we can use shitty material in and save ourselves 35 cents.
Cool.
Srinath.