Hi all!
I have rebuilt my engine making it a 555cc engine with 78mm wiseco pistons, a 0.7mm milled head, I also have my head worked for more intake and exaust volume, opened the combustion chamber to "fit" the bigger piston....
I used a 2nd hand standard crank, bearings and rods, all with clarence inbetween 0,06 - 0,08mm.
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7969/1310060847gq8.jpg)
Pic of the combustion chamber
(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3674/imageshack6mq8.jpg)
(http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/976/imageshack4rl6.jpg)
Pic of the 78mm Wiseco Piston with new sleeve!
The problem: I rode for around 600KM, and then I decided to go for a full trottle ride...
.... I rode for around 30 minutes, variating my velocity from 120km/h to 220km/h+ (yes!),
i found myself sometimes at 10.300-10500rpm @ 6 gear!....and believe me, i felt that it could go more...
anyway... my bike had a bit of oil leakage and during this ride, i think the oil got thinner, and started to leak even more! (my luck is that i did put more oil than I should, around 400ml more...)_
and the bike got reallly hot....REALLY HOT! and I started to hear a strange noise....
I stoped the bike, putted it on a truck and brought it back home....
I opened up the engine and notice the valves were hitting the little corner of the piston and it forced the other side of the piston against the cycinder.... and result on this:
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4036/2211061801jr5.jpg)
anyway...
I sent the piston to a shop over here in order to save it... and they aparentely did:
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/121/2911061754gp4.jpg)
and they made a new sleeve for each piston as well....
KK
I build everything back again (of course i did remove more material from de piston,), check the valve clearences ( left them all with 0,04-0,05mm) and ok
BUT, I'm concern about one thing.... a F*king noise that sounds horrible....
I dont know how to get rid of it! please, I need some expert help!
http://www.youtube.com/v/99YXoawflbg (http://www.youtube.com/v/99YXoawflbg)
(video of the engine working - can hear the strange noise i[m taking about!)
Here is another video, before the rebuild of the cylinder!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK2BPzxUg7I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK2BPzxUg7I)
Since i first rebuild my engine,(even before install the bigger pistons,...) its allways have a lot of noise....
I dont know what to do anymore!
Pleaaaase Help! :P
Thx a lot,
Filipe
Wow props on that big job, even if it has problems...
Rode behind a Ducati recently that had the same sound, mainly at idle, but it was even more clanky/rattly, like ridiculously loud. Sounded very loose and in urgent need of attention like he had silver dollars in for valve shims.
Am I crazy or is it the shims
Kyle
Quote from: indywar360 on December 22, 2006, 08:06:57 PM
Wow props on that big job, even if it has problems...
Rode behind a Ducati recently that had the same sound, mainly at idle, but it was even more clanky/rattly, like ridiculously loud. Sounded very loose and in urgent need of attention like he had silver dollars in for valve shims.
Am I crazy or is it the shims
Kyle
Your crazy, they have a Desmo valve system, not spring not shim, just arms and pull and push the valves up and down. And the noise you heard at idle was probably the dry clutch rattleing, perfectly normal.
Filipe-I dont really have any advice other than try a stock engine, they work pretty well. If your engine sounded bad before then you should have fixed that problem and then modded, not modded with a bad engine. Good luck with fixing the bike though.
+1 on the ducati's sound, its the dry clutch
The before rebuild did not sound all that bad, sort of hard to tell with the loud exhaust pipe. But then did it sound very bad like that when you first started it after the 555cc rebuild, or did it start sounding very bad after the valves were hitting the pistons. Are you sure that the valves are seating perfectly, the stems could be ever so slightly bent now. :cheers:
PS. I love that digital readout- good luck on your project bike!!
Kinda hard to say.
Still sounds like possible valve contact. I would check the valves for seating, since they could be tweaked (even slightly). The edge of the piston could be contacting the head.
What kind of cams are you running? If cam timing is off the intake and exhaust could clip each other.
Just a couple things to check. :dunno_white:
Sounds and Looks like the Pistons Fault.Wisecos are Forged Aluminum and Expand more than the Stock Cast Pistons.Those Marks on the Skirt are Seizure Marks.With Wisecos you have to Leave a Small Amount of Room when you Bore to Allow for Expansion.If it was Getting Hot that means that the Pistons were too Close of a Tolerance in the Bore.The More Heat the Tighter they Get.Upon Start up with Wisecos you must let them Warm up to Operating Temp Before Thrashing the Engine.Of course you got 600KM (372Miles) out of it before this Happened. :dunno_white: Usually in our 2 stroke Bikes you take the Motor thru several Heat and Cool Cycles and then Tear them down and look of Tight Spots on the Pistons.For the Tight Spots you Buff the Spots down with 400-600 Grit Sandpaper.
On the Valve Hitting the Piston thats Probably from Expansion of the Piston Top and Stretch on the Valve Stems OR too much Height on the Piston top.Did you Measure the Deck Height After you had the Head Milled .7mm?I'm Assuming that Since those Were Overbore Pistons Designed for another Suzuki Model that the height of the Piston Dome was Higher coupled with the Head Milling you Raised your Compression which Leads to Detonation on Pump Gas if your Compression is too High.This Could Explain the (Heat?)Siezure on the Exhaust side.Of course your Piston Tops Doesn't look like there Has Been Any Detonation.That is Unless the Valve Mark on the Piston is Actually a Detonation Mark.How About some Direct Pictures of the Combustion Chambers and Piston Tops?
What I would do is Hone the Cylinders out Again to get a Little more Clearance,Rering and Ride it Normally for 600-700 Miles.Have the Deck Height Checked to see how Much Cold Clearance you have Between the Combustion Chamber and Piston and the Piston top and Valves.If it's too much have the Piston tops Milled down a bit to get some Clearance.You may Also Have to Rejet.Since you Raised the Volume of the Cylinders by 68cc or 34cc per Cylinder I would say that it will be running a Tad bit Leaner than it was Originally.Less Fuel Mixture Means More Heat.After the Next Put together take it easy on it for up to 600Miles.There is a Sticker Originally on all of the Tachometers that state where you Need to keep the RPMs at at a Certain Mileage.I can't remember what it is on a Suzuki 4 stroke. :icon_confused:
I'm more of a Two Stroke Tuner More than I am a 4 Stroke tuner but it's the Same asic Principle except I don't have to worry with those things that Move Back and Forth in the Head.I still have to worry with Clearences,Detonation and Piston Slap though.
Under 5000rpm for the first 1000Km.
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: (http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9136/jughaidpa8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
and this is why god created the busa
if you want to go fast....buy a fast bike
looks like you set the engine up too tight
as jughead stated
wiseco pistons swell more than stockers
and the piston-wall tolerance needs to be bigger
also a thicker base gasket will help minimize the valve/piston slapping
or skim the top of the pistons and put in bigger/deaper valve pockets
what kind of compression were you up to?
what cam lift?
so how much have you gone through so far???????
Hi all!
Thx for all replies...
Let me explain a little bit better.....
I rebuilt this engine 3 times alrdy. First time, the engine had 80.000km and needed rebuild because the lower end was rattleling....
Second time, I rebuild it using new pistons n rings, new bearings.... anyway, i rode for about 1000km and had problem with it (since here, my engine was never really noise free) ... loads of vibrations and strange noises.... Ok. I opened it up and replaced the bearings, kk... Mount it and had the same problem....
I came to the conclusion that my oil pump was faulty.
I replaced my cranck for a 2nd hand but very new one, with rods and bearings... replaced my pistons for the wiseco ones with new sleeves. Replaced the oil pump for a new one... replaced all the cam chain tensors and chain...
ok, i rode easy for around 600 km...and the engine was ok, a bit noisy, but ok,kk when I decided to go for this 100km ride with my mates (one in a ZX-6R , other one on a Suzuki 750F, other on a GSXR1000 k5) they started ride at high speed and i tried to follow..... I rode for around 40-50km at extreme high speed... EXTREME for the GS.... most at the time over 180km/h reaching 230km/h or even more for a few kilometers..... thats what was showing at the gsxr k5 1000 painel,.... the RPM where from 9-10.5k at 6 gear....
Whell, after this 40-50km... I was around 160 and felt the engine quite hot..... and sudenly a really loud metalic noise.... guess it was when the valve started to touch the piston and fked up the sleeve...
Ok. NOW, i sent the piston to a machineshop to try to save it, and they did....they also removed some more material from the piston where the valve had hit it. They also made new sleeves for me, with 0.05mm clearence between the sleeves and the piston.
I found out that this machine shop where i was sending my head to check everythinig, sent it the head to me with valve clearence of over 0,010-0,015mm, and with big journal cam clearence as well....
Got it fix and they all have 0,04mm clearence now....
The only thing i didnt check yet are the valve springs and the shim brucket, which i suspect its a bit loose....
Other than that I dont know.... I opened the head and found no marks on the cylinder, head or valves.... and even before i had some more material removed from the piston, the valves just hitted the piston after a that looong and fast ride i had...
I rejjeted my carb, of course.... I[´m using 41 and 165 jets.... YES... (over here in Brazil our Gas have 25% of alcohool, so jets are a little bit bigger)...
Also, the gas octane around here is around 89-90 octanes....
I retardad the ignition today to see if it helps, around 5 degrees, but it didint help much...
I´m also working on a inline oil cooler, to help with resfriation.....
I´m using stock cams.... and have a 38mm carb ready for instalation!
I think i´m gettins something like 11,5:1 - 12:1
Guys, i have just done a new video tapping the exaust, its possible to hear exactly the sound...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDuFvORc6AY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDuFvORc6AY)
BTW, i dont know if u guys watched this video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK2BPzxUg7I
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK2BPzxUg7I) ) but just a little detail.... In this video, you can see the front of the bike rising about 30cm of the floor, and it was because i had my body lean foward AND i did not use the clutch! it was just acelerating... If i dont lean foward, the bike is powerfull enough to lift about 60cm or more just acelerating, WITHOUT CLUTCH....
Thx again,
Filipe
it defently sounds like its coming from the top of the engine. have you replaced the valve springs?? mabee one of the springs has broken or is weak and isn't moving fast enough to get out of the way of your piston.
or mabee your timing is still slightly off?? have you tested it with a timing light?.
mabee cam chain slap on the inside of your engine.
im guessing here. but my money is on.. something to do with the valves.
good luck mate. :thumb:
Quote from: hmmmnz on December 23, 2006, 12:19:17 PM
it defently sounds like its coming from the top of the engine. have you replaced the valve springs?? mabee one of the springs has broken or is weak and isn't moving fast enough to get out of the way of your piston.
or mabee your timing is still slightly off?? have you tested it with a timing light?.
mabee cam chain slap on the inside of your engine.
im guessing here. but my money is on.. something to do with the valves.
good luck mate. :thumb:
Hi mate!
I did not changed my valve springs, do they get loose often? i[m also suspecting of loosen buckets, do you guys know what kind of clearense the buckets have ?
What concerns me is that before this "fast ride", the noise wasnt as bad as this.... so i dont know if it broke a valve spring, or if loosen a brucket, but i[m worried because it could be something more serious, like an bent rod, or a bad piston work (remember i sent it to a machineshop to save it from the scratches... hehe) i dont know, the noise is definily between the cyclinder and the head....
thx a lot
It is definitely coming from the head. And you have noted that the exhaust valve has hit the piston. My guess is that you have a bent valve, that is just enough to prevent it from fully seating. What this would then cause is the valve lash to become vary large, and hence the large ticking sound you hear. I would check the valve lash and see if it is way out of spec. If it is then it is time to figure out a solution, since jst replacing the valve will not fix the interference problem.
If the valves are not out of spec, then it is an issue with the valves hitting something, which either way you have some work to do.
To check valve to piston clearance, take some modelers clay and put in on the piston, then install the head and time the cams, then crank it over BY HAND. Remove the head and check the clay, you will quickly be able to tell if there is not enough clearance via the clay
Tell us what you find
Aaron
Regarding the buckets: I remember GSJack having a bucket seize on him, keeping the exhaust valve open.
Don't you need stronger and stiffer valve springs to move faster out of the way of rising piston? Especially if the head has been milled
and + what Bob Broussard said. Also if you intend to run at high revs stronger valve springs will prevent valve float.
Anyway check the valves and valve guides,hope you find the problem,it's a nice project! :thumb:
I seem to recall that some people have had the reverse side of the lobes on the cams ground down to make the valves close sooner.
I'm not sure if its something you really need to do, but maybe something to look into that might help. :cheers:
grinding the back of the cam is the poor mans way of getting more lift with out welding on the cam
it is also harder to detect than welding if you are in a stock/supersport class of racing
now if ya have big power....(honda) .... you send the test engineer into the cam room during lunch....send out all the workers....
and reprogram the cam grinder to race specs...run off 50 sets...then return the machines to stock specs and go on with the world
fyi...
78mm pistons = 541cc
79mm pistons = 555cc
I would check the valve buckets to see if you don't have a tight one. I've seen a couple heads with seriously tight buckets. With the piston seizing and the heat generated, it might have caused a problem with the bucket. This could have caused the valve to stick open allowing the piston to knock it shut.
You can check the valves for bending at the same time.
If you had another stock head, I'd slap it on just to see if it makes a difference.
Ive never used Wiseco pistons. The only time I had seizing with the JE pistons is because some dumbass screwed up the bore job on my cylinders. :flipoff:
Had a different shop do my work and never had a problem since. I just start the motor and let it warm up a bit then shut it off and let it cool. The rings will seat in the first minute of running. If it doesn't smoke then it's good to go.
Race motors don't have the luxury of long break in times. :icon_mrgreen:
The jetting is a bit more critical on a air cooled motor. A tad richer helps cool the combustion temps.
The main problems I've had with a lean mixture is burning the intake valve seats.
Hi all!
The valve clearence is around 1mm. The clearence between the cylinder and de piston is 0.05mm / the clearence between the cam anda the shim, is 0,04-0,05mm / the cam journal clearence is 0,03-0,04mm.
This is all measured alrdy.
What i didnt measure yet is the valve spring, and the buckets, which i could feel that they area bit loose...
What really concerns me right now is, when I stoped the bike because the strange noise I heard (which i found out that was the valve hitting the head of the piston) I found out that i had a lot of oil leakage also, the oil light turned on just before i stop.... that concerns me too....because i dont know what effects could this cause on the lower end of the engine.... (the bearings... rods, and so on...) The engine was really hot, I can tell you that.... I took the oil stick out and i saw a lot of smoke coming out of the engine heheheh...
( the engine didnt run without oil cuz I put more oil than i should, by accident, so it was running with around 300ml more oil...)
Another explanation for this noite, could be the compression ratio..... I guess its around 12:1 right now, cuz i[m using, as I said before, a 0,7mm milled head + this high compression pistons.... and the gasoline around here have 25% of alchool, wich decreases the octanage to 89 points and i[m still using my DP8EA-9 sparks pugs as well.... i suposse i need to buy the DPR9EA-9 right...
I'm now worried about the lower part :(
thx,
Filipe
there isnt much you can do reguarding the bottom end. mabee a beefier oil pump, it will either handle it, or it won't deal with that if it comes around, which it probly will soon enough as the bike has done 80,000km.
you may need to think about making your mixture richer to try and keep the bike a bit cooler, and spend more time cleaning the plugs,
If a rod bearing starts to go bad from lack of oil, the piston will start hitting the head.
As the bearing gets worn away, it allows the piston to move farther up in the cylinder.
This could sound like it's a top end problem since the noise is higher up.
If the bearing was really gone it would start knocking down low as well.
Pull the head off and watch the piston movement while you rotate the crank back and forth.
The piston should move immediately when the crank moves. If there is a delay it means the bearing is bad.
The piston might even show signs of contact around the outer edge.
hi all!
thx for ur help!
I[m going on vocations now, will be back on the 4th of january.... then i will send this engine to a suzuki dealear wich is speacialist on engine mods in a city around 1 hour away from mine....
hope i have good luck this time!
thx a lot!
Have him degree the cams.
When the head is milled it has an effect on cam timing.
I milled a scrap head just to see how much I could remove. It has the spark plug area cutout so I can see the valves move. It changed the timing enough for the valves to almost touch each other as the intake closed and the exhaust opened :o
+1 on the cams.
Read the racers corner on the main page.
Enjoy your vacation!