Ok so as I was getting ready to put it on today it slipped out of my hands and hit the floor :mad:, about a 3-4 ft drop. Its thin carpet with only a little padding then hardwood under that. Now I know that helmets are only good for one fall but its a 3 mo old shoei RF-1000, and I hate to toss it out just from that. Do you guys (and girls) think its ok?
My mind is pretty much made up that I'm going to keep using it, because I can't afford to replace it soon. I guess I just need to know, when I do get the money, if it needs to be replaced or just wait till the wear life runs out.
i wouldn't toss it for that... helmets will generally hold up for more than one big fall, but it's safer to just toss them. but thats big fall. 3-4 ft onto carpet won't hurt a helmet. 6+ feet onto concrete, yeah, toss it.
Time to replace it. Helmets are designed for one impact, regardless of whether your head is in it at the time or not.
In another thread someone mentioned that you can send it to Shoei and they will check it out for free :cheers:
Might be worth $12 in postage to have it checked out by them :thumb:
Quote from: scottpA_GS on February 18, 2007, 10:07:37 AM
In another thread someone mentioned that you can send it to Shoei and they will check it out for free :cheers:
Might be worth $12 in postage to have it checked out by them :thumb:
I'll have to look into that.. thx
I have had a helmate that has been dropped many times on the pavement because of the wind or me bumping the bike while its laying on it. then one day I layed down the bike and I slid across the road in an emergency situation. the helmate still has no cracks or visible stress and I still use it. I also own a brand new helmate that I use mainly. but I really think that in a everyday situation that the one impact rule is a little over exagurated. I can see if you were in a race situation but its going to take one hell of a hit to actually cause that helmate not to fuction for what it was designed for. its like OSHA ... some safety things are just going to far. then people go nuts over it.
it all boiles down to how comfortable you are using it. if you feel safe, continue to use it. if you dont feel safe then buy a new one.
some over react and others neglect, its good to find a happy medium between safety and practicality.
It not necessarily how hard you hit, it can also be how you hit. I dropped my z1r from 2ft. It was fine...
Now I was wearing my scorpion when I wrecked back in August. I don't remember hitting my head, but I guess I did. Look over your helmet for visible damage. Exterior damage doesn't mean a thing, I had no visible exterior damage. Look over your entire helmet. Take the liner out and look at the foam on the inside. If there are any cracks, odd looking bumps, or anything out of the ordinary...get a new one.
The interior foam lining on a helmet (the part that absorbs the impact) can separate from the exterior shell. In which case, the helmet would be worthless.
(http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/pics/Helmets/arai_cutaway.jpg)
Now my helmet, which was seeming fine, revealed this when I took it apart:
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a1/Onlypastrana199/helmetinside.jpg)
Clearly if you see anything like that, you're not going to want to keep wearing it.
I don't see how you could damage a helmet dropping it empty (unless you drop it from a tall height). The compressible material on the inside is not going to be damaged dropping it empty.
However, even a small hit with your head in it warrants replacement of the helmet.
Quote from: trumpetguy on February 18, 2007, 09:40:24 PM
I don't see how you could damage a helmet dropping it empty (unless you drop it from a tall height). The compressible material on the inside is not going to be damaged dropping it empty.
You've never read any of the articles that have been posted here/various places on the internet, have you? Every one I've ever read (including independent evaluations, not just sponsored articles) has endorsed replacing the helmet even if it was dropped empty.
Quote from: NiceGuysFinishLast on February 18, 2007, 10:17:42 PM
Quote from: trumpetguy on February 18, 2007, 09:40:24 PM
I don't see how you could damage a helmet dropping it empty (unless you drop it from a tall height). The compressible material on the inside is not going to be damaged dropping it empty.
You've never read any of the articles that have been posted here/various places on the internet, have you? Every one I've ever read (including independent evaluations, not just sponsored articles) has endorsed replacing the helmet even if it was dropped empty.
thats so they don't get sued. its a disclaimer to cover there ass.
just to stop the fight right now.. everything falls at the same rate of speed (full or empty), it just depends on if it had enough time to reach enough speed/velocity to "disrupt" the foam. If I new the amount of speed/velocity needed to "disrupt" the foam I could probably calculate if it reached that..
Thank you physics "with a cheezy grin and two sarcastic thumbs up"
Everything accelerates at the same rate, 9.8m/s^2. Does that mean I think my head is worth less than a $160 helmet? Right now, yes, because I'm broke. But I'll be replacing my helmet ASAP.
Quote from: ixolas on February 18, 2007, 11:16:23 PM
just to stop the fight right now.. everything falls at the same rate of speed (full or empty), it just depends on if it had enough time to reach enough speed/velocity to "disrupt" the foam. If I new the amount of speed/velocity needed to "disrupt" the foam I could probably calculate if it reached that..
Thank you physics "with a cheezy grin and two sarcastic thumbs up"
so I guess to figure out it all we would need to know at what point of impact or what amount of force is needed to create a great amount of stress on the foam that is being used in the helmates. there has to be a standard foam they use and there has to be test that they have done on how much force is needed to damage.
and by the amount of distance from the drop to the floor we could figure out how much force that would be on the helmate and weather or not it is in the hotzone or the safe zone.
maybe we should start wearing helmates in cars too lol.
I imagine the force required to damage the EPS liner varies with impact location. I imagine the SNELL foundation or the DOT would know, since that's part of their tests. Whether or not they'd release that info to the public is another matter. I don't know why they'd safeguard it.. but then, large corporations/government agencies are rarely logical.
Yes, if we knew the threshold, we could perform basic mathematical calculations to determine the severity of the damage from a drop. We'd need to know the exact height of the drop though.
Also, it's "helmet". C'mon. It's in the title of the thread.
Quote from: NiceGuysFinishLast on February 18, 2007, 11:32:46 PM
I imagine the force required to damage the EPS liner varies with impact location. I imagine the SNELL foundation or the DOT would know, since that's part of their tests. Whether or not they'd release that info to the public is another matter. I don't know why they'd safeguard it.. but then, large corporations/government agencies are rarely logical.
Yes, if we knew the threshold, we could perform basic mathematical calculations to determine the severity of the damage from a drop. We'd need to know the exact height of the drop though.
Also, it's "helmet". C'mon. It's in the title of the thread.
yea yea yea I'm tired, I was'nt paying attention, and I never proofread because its an internet forum .
well we could always estimate the hieght. and estimate the point of impact. but I do know a big part of the replace your helmate after any impact is to save the company from being responsable for any accidents. because everyone is right they do "design" the helmate for "one" major impact, but thats not to say it can't take many.
I have faith in my helmet my son lol. (see I spelled it right this time).
I have faith in my helmet too. I've been down twice in it. Now there are scuffs and scrapes on it. I don't trust it anymore. But I have to until I can afford to replace it.
Quote from: NiceGuysFinishLast on February 18, 2007, 11:45:53 PM
I have faith in my helmet too. I've been down twice in it. Now there are scuffs and scrapes on it. I don't trust it anymore. But I have to until I can afford to replace it.
yea I can see that. have you checked inside it like Lisa did? you could always get one of the cheep helmates with a spike out the top. lol
Yeah, I checked out the inside, nothing visible.. I'll still replace it when I can afford it.. like I said, it's only $160...
No spikes for me.. but I AM gonna get one of those mohawks, once I have a job..
I've emailed shoei asking if it is ok to use and what is the minimum amount of force to disrupt/damage the inner liner..
I'm still waiting for their reply. :icon_rolleyes:
Chances are good that without knowing the specifics, they'll just tell you to replace it. But like I said, you can ship it back to them and have it checked out.
You're missing the point entirely. The EPS liner is not subject to significant impact forces when there is no headform present. However, the SHELL of the helmet is.
The composite is designed to absorb impact energy though controlled destruction of the resin matrix. It is entirely possible for the laminate to have sustained severe damage without being visable to the naked eye. The damage likely to occur is called delamination. Delamination is the failure of the bond between layers of composite reinforcement. This bond failure means that interlaminar shear forces cannot be transmitted from one lamination to another. The result is a severe reduction in bending strength and therefore impact resistance. Due to the flexible nature of composites, it is possible for the laminate to be subjected to a force great enough to cause delamination but still allow the structure to spring back to its "as built" shape. The only way to determine the extent of the damage only through the use of non-destructive testing methods such as ultrasound.
"Faith" has no business in the safety business or anywhere outside of a church. Webster's defines faith as "belief which is not based on proof." I don't tell the pilot of an airplane with 300 people aboard that I have faith in airplane to make the journey over the Atlantic. I tell him that I know the airplane to be safe and prepared to make the trip without question. I don't suggest you have faith in your helmet, I suggest you know for a fact that it is safe and capable of protecting your brain in a crash.
Spending the rest of your life getting steak dinners through a tube isn't worth $200. Buy a new one, or have your current lid tested by the manufacturer.
It's probably fine. I dropped my helmet from over 4 feet once, and sent it off to Shoei to be sure. They said that, despite the exterior paint being chipped off, the helmet was perfectly fine.
Dirt riders have their helmets go through a heck of a lot more than we do, and they don't replace their helmets after every drop.
Quote from: GeeP on February 19, 2007, 04:03:08 PM
You're missing the point entirely. The EPS liner is not subject to significant impact forces when there is no headform present. However, the SHELL of the helmet is.
The composite is designed to absorb impact energy though controlled destruction of the resin matrix. It is entirely possible for the laminate to have sustained severe damage without being visable to the naked eye. The damage likely to occur is called delamination. Delamination is the failure of the bond between layers of composite reinforcement. This bond failure means that interlaminar shear forces cannot be transmitted from one lamination to another. The result is a severe reduction in bending strength and therefore impact resistance. Due to the flexible nature of composites, it is possible for the laminate to be subjected to a force great enough to cause delamination but still allow the structure to spring back to its "as built" shape. The only way to determine the extent of the damage only through the use of non-destructive testing methods such as ultrasound.
"Faith" has no business in the safety business or anywhere outside of a church. Webster's defines faith as "belief which is not based on proof." I don't tell the pilot of an airplane with 300 people aboard that I have faith in airplane to make the journey over the Atlantic. I tell him that I know the airplane to be safe and prepared to make the trip without question. I don't suggest you have faith in your helmet, I suggest you know for a fact that it is safe and capable of protecting your brain in a crash.
Spending the rest of your life getting steak dinners through a tube isn't worth $200. Buy a new one, or have your current lid tested by the manufacturer.
I could say confedence. its a personal choice dont knock anyone either way. remember some states dont even have helmet laws. now would I or would I not wear a helmet. im sure once or twice I would ablige my want not to. can't go through your whole life wondering what if. if your going to go or end up some way its going to happen no matter how many helmet you buy.
I've already met a car's windshield with my face one time. It was a tie though, I broke it and I it broke my jaw. And it wasn't steak through a straw it was
anything I ate/drank, everything came through a straw for three months while my jaw was wired shut. Bicycle, the pedal kind, vs elderly driver and there tank of a cage... good times. So I'm not down playing the importance of proper gear. When I ride I have almost full gear, just lack "motorcycle" boots, instead I just wear steel toed ones. And that is why I'm on here asking for your opinions, but don't get mad if I don't immediately buy one regardless of what anyone says, even if the shoei people test it and say its bad, b/c as stated initially, I can't afford one right now. And no one will deny that any helmet, even a possibly damaged one, is better than no helmet at all, because that would be my only other option.
Quote from: NiceGuysFinishLast on February 19, 2007, 01:16:44 PM
...you can ship it back to them and have it checked out...
Do you know who to contact about this?
Just call the 800 number that came with your helmet, I believe.
Quote from: NiceGuysFinishLast on February 18, 2007, 10:17:42 PM
You've never read any of the articles that have been posted here/various places on the internet, have you? Every one I've ever read (including independent evaluations, not just sponsored articles) has endorsed replacing the helmet even if it was dropped empty.
Actually, I have read a lot and posted in some (but thanks for asking :laugh:). I'm simply saying there's a HUGE difference in dropping an empty helmet and the same speed of impact with a head inside it.
I do understand that delamination may not be visible on the outside, although there would almost have to be some deformation or evidence of such. I'm personally not buying that a helmet cannot withstand a drop from the height of the bike seat without damage to the shell. If a helmet could delaminate from such a drop, it would offer VERY little protection in a real world crash.
OTOH, if I had even a minor accident that scuffed my helmet, I'd replace it. I am MUCH more worried about the liner compressing than the shell delaminating from a minor hit. As I have posted before, I'm 49 and I own a Z1R precisely because it will protect my shock-sensitive middle-aged brain better than a Snell rated helmet. I'm not surviving a hit like the Snell test anyway! Younger brains might...
Hah, I doubt my younger brain will survive any better than your addled.... err... older brain would..
:laugh: :laugh:
Assumptions:
Mass of helmet: 1kg (works out to 2.2 lbs, the weight of a Shoei)
Mass of head: 5kg
Height: 1.25m (~4 ft)
Energy = m*g*h = (1kg)*(9.81 m/sec2)*(1.25m) = 12.2625 joules
Snell helmets are tested with repeated impacts of 250 joules (IIRC), with a maximum of 300 joules.
With a head in the helmet, the energy is multiplied 6 fold:
E = (mhelmet + mhead)*g*h = (1kg + 5kg)*(9.81 m/sec2)*(1.25m) = 73.575 joules
Significant differences between those two numbers.
Personally, I think it is fine, but send it to the manufacturer to have it checked out just to make sure.
Quote from: ixolas on February 19, 2007, 10:46:57 PMWhen I ride I have almost full gear, just lack "motorcycle" boots, instead I just wear steel toed ones. And that is why I'm on here asking for your opinions, but don't get mad if I don't immediately buy one regardless of what anyone says, even if the shoei people test it and say its bad, b/c as stated initially, I can't afford one right now. And no one will deny that any helmet, even a possibly damaged one, is better than no helmet at all, because that would be my only other option.
You're on the right track. :)
Quote from: ixolas on February 19, 2007, 10:46:57 PM
When I ride I have almost full gear, just lack "motorcycle" boots, instead I just wear steel toed ones. And that is why I'm on here asking for your opinions, but don't get mad if I don't immediately buy one regardless of what anyone says, even if the shoei people test it and say its bad, b/c as stated initially, I can't afford one right now.
You'd be surprised how much you can get a decent helmet these days. I got a Fox MX helmet (DOT and Snell approved) for $60 shipped off eBay, brand new. Discontinued graphic in my size :)
fell out of your hands onto carpet? i highly doubt there's anything wrong with it. it probably takes a bigger beating at the store moving from shelf to shelf.
Or in shipping...
Think about it... If you dropped your head 3ft onto carpet, you probably wouldn't even have a headache... :dunno_white:
But... You can use it as an excuse to get a new helmet. That's my plan... When I want a new one I'll just drop it and tell my wife it's broken.