GStwin.com GS500 Message Forum

Alright, I've been researching different cars that would be reasonable for me to get after I graduate from grad school. I'm looking at '05-'07 models because I plan to buy used, Somewhere in that general range should work.

In short, I'm looking for a reliable AWD sport sedan with a manual transmission. I've been looking heavily into the Subaru Legacy GT, and I recently discovered the Mazda Mazdaspeed6. The Legacy GT has appealed pretty heavily to me for quite some time now, and has got pretty good reviews. The Mazdaspeed 6 is also pretty comparable to Legacy GT, but from what I've read the interior quality is somewhat chintzy.

Unfortunately, the IS250 AWD is only availible in automatic transmission, as is the Infiniti G35x Sedan. The BMW 3-series has an all wheel drive version, but from what I've read it isn't as reliable as I'd like, and the price on them tend to climb quickly.

What else is out there? Opinions? Thoughts? Comments?

Question...  Why are you considering an AWD vehicle?  Are you planning on moving somewhere that snow really exhists?  lol.  j/k.

But seriously, do you really NEED AWD.  Just wondering what your reasoning is for choosing AWD.

I've only had two 4x4 Blazers and my current FWD Cirrus.  I miss my 4x4's.

Quote from: annguyen1981 on February 24, 2007, 07:50:10 AM
Question...  Why are you considering an AWD vehicle?  Are you planning on moving somewhere that snow really exhists?  lol.  j/k.

But seriously, do you really NEED AWD.  Just wondering what your reasoning is for choosing AWD.

I've only had two 4x4 Blazers and my current FWD Cirrus.  I miss my 4x4's.

AWD= more traction and FWD cars suck :). its either RWD or AWD. but seriously AWD vehicles handle amazingly, and im talking about cars not suv's or trucks.


try a infiniti. they made some AWD little sedans that were super quick.


or look at the volvo v50 T5 AWD. 218hp  they are sweeet little cars. and can haul crap too.
(http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/VolvoV50/Images/LeftFront3.jpg)

or the volvo s40.
(http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/02/03/021979.1-lg.jpg)
the cool thing about the volvo's is the 6 speed that comes with them :) and trust me even back in the 80's they were kicking ass with there turbo wagons


subaru's are still cool but I think way over priced for what you get.

here is a ford fusion they produce an awd version as well
(http://www.highburyford.com/images/ext_8.jpg)

I worked for Subaru for 4 years. They are bulletproof.

The Lagacy GT is a very nice sedan.

I owned a Forester XT (2.5L turbo, 5-spd manual) for two years & the thing was a rocketship. In the 1/4 mile figures, the Subaru was very close to the Porsche Cayanne twin turbo.

Suprisingly it was much faster than the WRX. The Forrester was more of a detuned STi engine.


I think you'd be very happy with the Lagacy GT.

As far as reliability goes, I currently drive a '92 Subaru Loyale wagon. They havent made them for a loooong time. As much as I try; I cant kill the friggin thing as long as I check the oil. 

I also own a 1989 subaru hatchback  with the horizonatly opposed 4. it wont die. very underpowered but wont die.

I should add the AWD is everything these days. I dunno what you'll be using the car for, but AWD is the king sh*t. You have no Idea what AWD is capable of until you're using it through New England winters.

AJ is talking about trading in her car next year before winter, she has a z24 cavalier which was fine for Indiana winters but not for the northeast. Plus her job isn't the kind where you can call in due to the weather, so she's gotta have something thats really good in the snow. We're also looking at the subarus..though we lovingly refer to them as "lesbarus"

Quote from: Onlypastrana199 on February 24, 2007, 11:28:27 AM
AJ is talking about trading in her car next year before winter, she has a z24 cavalier which was fine for Indiana winters but not for the northeast. Plus her job isn't the kind where you can call in due to the weather, so she's gotta have something thats really good in the snow. We're also looking at the subarus..though we lovingly refer to them as "lesbarus"

ROFL!!!! yes I did come across quite a few "colorful" bumperstickers while I worked for Subaru.

How about the Audi A4? I know that in the past their reputation hasn't been the best, but I have one friend who has an 03 A4 and my uncle bought  new S4 (DROOOOOLLLLL) and they are both very happy with them. I also think that if you buy certified pre-owned, they have that service plan included that covers most repairs from regular use.

I saw a bunch of 05+ Manual Quattros on eBay that are going for $20-25K.

two of my brother in-laws own and owned Audis. One has the A4 2.0T, the other had a A6 2.7 bi-turbo before getting a BMW M5.
My sister currently ownes an A6 wagon.

The A6 2.7TT (old S4 engine) was a fun car, but I've never been too fond of Audis. The interior always felt sort of bland & they dont get very good reliability scores.


hell, I'd still take one over my current car any day though.

Quote from: l3uddha on February 24, 2007, 11:37:14 AM

Quote from: Onlypastrana199 on February 24, 2007, 11:28:27 AM
AJ is talking about trading in her car next year before winter, she has a z24 cavalier which was fine for Indiana winters but not for the northeast. Plus her job isn't the kind where you can call in due to the weather, so she's gotta have something thats really good in the snow. We're also looking at the subarus..though we lovingly refer to them as "lesbarus"

ROFL!!!! yes I did come across quite a few "colorful" bumperstickers while I worked for Subaru.

I think SAAB's and jeep wranglers take the trophy for colorfull people driving them ;)

When I was roadway flagging, I'd get incredibly bored so I'd play count the ghey people/lesbarus...We had a couple regulars..a girl in a Jeep Wrangler who drove like a psycho, a girl in a Bronco, a woman on a harley, and a BUNCH of subarus. There was also two scary chicks who wore flannel and rode around in an F250...

I've never understood the "Audi's checkered past" thing.  It turns out that a bad case of sensationalistic journalism got the whole public against the company for NO reason what-so-ever.  Audi's have always been solid cars.  My family bought my Audi A6 brand new, and 11 years later its still the most reliable, indestructible and nicest car I've ever owned.  I'm getting rid of it Thursday which will be a sad day!

Go for the A4 1.8T, Brian!  If you're looking for some performance, the S4 is no slouch!

-Turd.

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 24, 2007, 10:20:45 AM
try a infiniti. they made some AWD little sedans that were super quick.

[snip]

or the volvo s40.
the cool thing about the volvo's is the 6 speed that comes with them :) and trust me even back in the 80's they were kicking ass with there turbo wagons

subaru's are still cool but I think way over priced for what you get.

here is a ford fusion they produce an awd version as well

1) Infiniti has no AWD sedan with a manual transmission. Both the G35x and M35 AWD come with automatic transmissions only.

2) From what I've read on numerous sites and reviews, the Volvo is pretty sub par compared to the Subaru and other sport sedans, especially in terms of sporty driving. Apparently it is more of an AWD family sedan than a sport sedan.

3) The Subarus, especially the Legacy GT, have a number of standard features that normally wouldn't come standard in this price range. In other words, you get a surprising amount for your money.

4) The Ford, as well as being not as reliable as I'd like, is not as high a quality that I'm looking for. If you noted the ones I have been looking into, Infinitis, BMWs, Lexuses (Lexi?), and the upper echelon of Mazdas, the Ford doesn't exactly fit in with that category.

Quote from: l3uddha on February 24, 2007, 10:56:12 AM
The Lagacy GT is a very nice sedan.

I owned a Forester XT (2.5L turbo, 5-spd manual) for two years & the thing was a rocketship. In the 1/4 mile figures, the Subaru was very close to the Porsche Cayanne twin turbo.

Yeah, the Legacy GT uses the same 2.5L turbo that Forester has, and is as you said, a detuned STi engine. 250 HP and 250 lb-ft make for a quick ride! :) Plus, the STi is too ricer-boy shopping cart looking for me.

Quote from: l3uddha on February 24, 2007, 11:09:11 AM
I should add the AWD is everything these days. I dunno what you'll be using the car for, but AWD is the king sh*t. You have no Idea what AWD is capable of until you're using it through New England winters.

The increased grip and handling are the main attraction. I'll be using it for everything I don't use the bike for. Grocery getting, commuting when the bike is down or the road is way too nasty to ride, etc...

Quote from: CasiUSA on February 24, 2007, 11:42:41 AM
How about the Audi A4? I know that in the past their reputation hasn't been the best, but I have one friend who has an 03 A4 and my uncle bought  new S4 (DROOOOOLLLLL) and they are both very happy with them. I also think that if you buy certified pre-owned, they have that service plan included that covers most repairs from regular use.

It's about $5000 more expensive than the Legacy GT when similarly equipped, but we'll see how used prices hold up in a few years. It definitely looks like a nice car, and well worth considering.

Quote from: Turd Ferguson on February 24, 2007, 01:15:02 PM
Go for the A4 1.8T, Brian!  If you're looking for some performance, the S4 is no slouch!

The S4 looks hot, but I'm not looking for a V8. Some semblance of reasonable gas mileage would still be nice!  :laugh:

Quote from: Turd Ferguson on February 24, 2007, 01:15:02 PM
I've never understood the "Audi's checkered past" thing.  It turns out that a bad case of sensationalistic journalism got the whole public against the company for NO reason what-so-ever.

I think it was the ignition randomly starting the car or something. I never actually read the article about it, but that sounds pretty dangerous. As far as Audi now, I totally agree that they are awesome. I would love the new RS4- hopefully I'll be able to afford one soon...

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on February 24, 2007, 04:36:10 PM

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 24, 2007, 10:20:45 AM
try a infiniti. they made some AWD little sedans that were super quick.

[snip]

or the volvo s40.
the cool thing about the volvo's is the 6 speed that comes with them :) and trust me even back in the 80's they were kicking ass with there turbo wagons

subaru's are still cool but I think way over priced for what you get.

here is a ford fusion they produce an awd version as well

1) Infiniti has no AWD sedan with a manual transmission. Both the G35x and M35 AWD come with automatic transmissions only.

2) From what I've read on numerous sites and reviews, the Volvo is pretty sub par compared to the Subaru and other sport sedans, especially in terms of sporty driving. Apparently it is more of an AWD family sedan than a sport sedan.

3) The Subarus, especially the Legacy GT, have a number of standard features that normally wouldn't come standard in this price range. In other words, you get a surprising amount for your money.

4) The Ford, as well as being not as reliable as I'd like, is not as high a quality that I'm looking for. If you noted the ones I have been looking into, Infinitis, BMWs, Lexuses (Lexi?), and the upper echelon of Mazdas, the Ford doesn't exactly fit in with that category.

Quote from: l3uddha on February 24, 2007, 10:56:12 AM
The Lagacy GT is a very nice sedan.

I owned a Forester XT (2.5L turbo, 5-spd manual) for two years & the thing was a rocketship. In the 1/4 mile figures, the Subaru was very close to the Porsche Cayanne twin turbo.

Yeah, the Legacy GT uses the same 2.5L turbo that Forester has, and is as you said, a detuned STi engine. 250 HP and 250 lb-ft make for a quick ride! :) Plus, the STi is too ricer-boy shopping cart looking for me.

Quote from: l3uddha on February 24, 2007, 11:09:11 AM
I should add the AWD is everything these days. I dunno what you'll be using the car for, but AWD is the king sh*t. You have no Idea what AWD is capable of until you're using it through New England winters.

The increased grip and handling are the main attraction. I'll be using it for everything I don't use the bike for. Grocery getting, commuting when the bike is down or the road is way too nasty to ride, etc...

Quote from: CasiUSA on February 24, 2007, 11:42:41 AM
How about the Audi A4? I know that in the past their reputation hasn't been the best, but I have one friend who has an 03 A4 and my uncle bought  new S4 (DROOOOOLLLLL) and they are both very happy with them. I also think that if you buy certified pre-owned, they have that service plan included that covers most repairs from regular use.

It's about $5000 more expensive than the Legacy GT when similarly equipped, but we'll see how used prices hold up in a few years. It definitely looks like a nice car, and well worth considering.

Quote from: Turd Ferguson on February 24, 2007, 01:15:02 PM
Go for the A4 1.8T, Brian!  If you're looking for some performance, the S4 is no slouch!

The S4 looks hot, but I'm not looking for a V8. Some semblance of reasonable gas mileage would still be nice!  :laugh:

infiniti did make a manual transmission AWD vehicle , and I beleive they made it up to 2005 it was compared to the BMW M3 ..I cant remember the damn name of it though. but I just checked it out on the site in 2005! I KNOW THEY SOLD IT! they even advertised it being better than the M3 and you said you were looking for preowned. I am bias to volvo because I know the potential they have. they really are faster than you think :).  but it sounds like you like the subaru. I just wasnt as impressed with them when I test drove a few of their cars when i was looking for new ones. actually the car that impressed me the most was the lotus elise and the 350z  when I test drove them who needs AWD when you own either one of those bad ass vehicles :)

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 24, 2007, 07:03:17 PM
infiniti did make a manual transmission AWD vehicle , and I beleive they made it up to 2005 it was compared to the BMW M3 ..I cant remember the damn name of it though. but I just checked it out on the site in 2005! I KNOW THEY SOLD IT! they even advertised it being better than the M3 and you said you were looking for preowned. I am bias to volvo because I know the potential they have. they really are faster than you think :).  but it sounds like you like the subaru. I just wasnt as impressed with them when I test drove a few of their cars when i was looking for new ones. actually the car that impressed me the most was the lotus elise and the 350z  when I test drove them who needs AWD when you own either one of those bad ass vehicles :)

I checked, and I didn't find any manual transmission AWD vehicles made by Infiniti. The G35x was compared with the BMW 3-series, but just like today, it was not offered in manual transmission.

And it isn't that I'm biased against Volvo, but everything I've read say that they are more about being comfortable family sedans than a sport sedan, as I noted originally.

As to the Lotus and 350Z, they aren't what I'm looking for at all. For one, they are sports cars that are coupes, not sedans, and neither are offered with AWD. The Lotus especially is a hard edged sports car not exactly meant for every day driving and grocery getting. Couple that with the fact that the Lotus is way out of the price range I am looking at, neither of those are viable options. At all.

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on February 24, 2007, 07:22:20 PM

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 24, 2007, 07:03:17 PM
infiniti did make a manual transmission AWD vehicle , and I beleive they made it up to 2005 it was compared to the BMW M3 ..I cant remember the damn name of it though. but I just checked it out on the site in 2005! I KNOW THEY SOLD IT! they even advertised it being better than the M3 and you said you were looking for preowned. I am bias to volvo because I know the potential they have. they really are faster than you think :).  but it sounds like you like the subaru. I just wasnt as impressed with them when I test drove a few of their cars when i was looking for new ones. actually the car that impressed me the most was the lotus elise and the 350z  when I test drove them who needs AWD when you own either one of those bad ass vehicles :)

I checked, and I didn't find any manual transmission AWD vehicles made by Infiniti. The G35x was compared with the BMW 3-series, but just like today, it was not offered in manual transmission.

And it isn't that I'm biased against Volvo, but everything I've read say that they are more about being comfortable family sedans than a sport sedan, as I noted originally.

As to the Lotus and 350Z, they aren't what I'm looking for at all. For one, they are sports cars that are coupes, not sedans, and neither are offered with AWD. The Lotus especially is a hard edged sports car not exactly meant for every day driving and grocery getting. Couple that with the fact that the Lotus is way out of the price range I am looking at, neither of those are viable options. At all.

well when you said BMW and Lexus you are talking about 40K+ cars the lotus elise is a 42k car new so I assumed you had that to spend.  im still searching for that AWD car for you I might have been looking on a overseas infiniti site though. it seems like you like the subaru though out of all of them. Id say go for it. 

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 24, 2007, 07:42:34 PM
well when you said BMW and Lexus you are talking about 40K+ cars the lotus elise is a 42k car new so I assumed you had that to spend.  im still searching for that AWD car for you I might have been looking on a overseas infiniti site though. it seems like you like the subaru though out of all of them. Id say go for it. 

BMW 328xi - $34,300
Lexus IS250 - $34,285
Subaru Legacy GT - $28,295
Audi A4 2.0T Quattro - $30,340

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on February 24, 2007, 08:10:37 PM

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 24, 2007, 07:42:34 PM
well when you said BMW and Lexus you are talking about 40K+ cars the lotus elise is a 42k car new so I assumed you had that to spend.  im still searching for that AWD car for you I might have been looking on a overseas infiniti site though. it seems like you like the subaru though out of all of them. Id say go for it. 

BMW 328xi - $34,300
Lexus IS250 - $34,285
Subaru Legacy GT - $28,295
Audi A4 2.0T Quattro - $30,340

well whats and extra 8k when your spending that much anyways ;) lol im just kidding. what do the used priced look on those vehicles? you could probly get a pretty good deal.

ok this is just an idea and you can shoot it down but I thought it was cool and it would totally cross my mind if I was looking to spend that kinda cash. because I know you want a pretty bad ass sporty sedan thats awd and manual

check these out

http://fast4wheels.com/cars_for_sale.html#car3

http://fast4wheels.com/tabs.php

now I dont know if this would or would not meet your needs but its an idea and I know it is a very desirable vehicle.

also inspired by the Nissan Pulsar GTI-R which is exactly what you would be looking for in a car. AWD hatch back with some serious BALLS. which is another cool car that you can find imported or import.

also you might want to wait till the end of the year when the new models are rolling out for 08. because you might find an AWD one of these
http://www.freshalloy.com/site/cars/nissan/2005/nsc-hatch/home.shtml

also the new Nissan Skyline for the US is coming to the autoshow this year and Im sure you will see it very soon. 

like I said they are just ideas and I thought you might enjoy

Ok I haven't really read all the suggestions thus far but I did catch you dismiss the STi because it's too "ricer" looking.  Let me tell you something about the STi...it has options.  There's more than one STi roaming the streets that looks identicle to the RS except 18" wheels.  The only reason those cars have 18" wheels is because those big f%$king brembos don't fit behind anything else.  If you can afford it, don't be so quick to dismiss it.

Downside to the STi is that it's not a very reliable car.  Neither is the WRX.  Both are plagued with transmission troubles and the simple fact that they're turbo cars makes them that much less reliable...many, many more parts to break and I've seen those monstrous snouts of theirs inhale birds which resulted in the need of a new intercooler.  300+ whp is already stressing that block.

I wouldn't get an STi, though.  In fact, I wouldn't be looking for AWD.  Trust me, AWD isn't going to do anything but shave your 60ft times a little and eat tires.  Having driven all varieties of drivetrains in ALL varieties of road (and off) conditions, rear wheel drive is 100% where it's at.  If you're really that concerned with poor weather driveabillity, AWD isn't going to get you anything that FWD won't, and you'll spend less on the car.

The ONLY AWD new car on the market that I would suggest buying is the Volkswagen Golf R32.  AWD, 6spd, stupid fast.

If you're going for a new car, I would suggest staying away from the E90.  BMW just dropped it on the market and it's just not what I would call reliable yet.  The E46 is a better option, but it's also not my favorite.  If I had to run with an E46 I wouldn't settle for anything less than the 330i.  I would much more prefer get an E36 and if you got the money to spend, look for a 1997 or 1998 M3/4.  Those are the only 4-door M3's...EVER.  They're much more balanced than the coupes, a little lighter, and actually have fewer body/mechanical problems than all the coupes.  That's going to be my ultimate suggestion to you; '97/98 M3/4.  Follewed by a 328i or iS.

Again, though, if a new car is a must, look at Lincoln.  Seriously.  The LS is a badass platform and their six puts down nearly as much torque as the V8 option.  The 5spd is realy crisp and direct and the car, despite what you would think, is designed by people who wanted a sports sedan.  The suspension is stiff, the car is low, the driving postion is aggressive...it was built to compete directly with the BMW 5-series and only falters by fractions of seconds across the run scenario and in general fit-n-finnish ($30k car vs $50k car, though).

Another new car I would suggest Pontiac GTO.  LOTS of power all over the place and it's a 6spd.

I'm really drawing a blank, though, on other cars in that area that are of real intest in comparison to the STi/etc.

Ok the 2.0 quattros are also badasses but some of them stretch quite beyond STi pricing.  I don't really know what you're looking to spend.

Being as immersed in the car world as I tend to be, hit me up with your price range and I'll just tell you what most badass per buck thing there is.

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on February 24, 2007, 08:10:37 PM

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 24, 2007, 07:42:34 PM
well when you said BMW and Lexus you are talking about 40K+ cars the lotus elise is a 42k car new so I assumed you had that to spend.  im still searching for that AWD car for you I might have been looking on a overseas infiniti site though. it seems like you like the subaru though out of all of them. Id say go for it. 

BMW 328xi - $34,300
Lexus IS250 - $34,285
Subaru Legacy GT - $28,295
Audi A4 2.0T Quattro - $30,340

I think hes looking into the high 20's to low 30's  Im guessing?  :dunno_white:

+200 on the lincolns  :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

~Lincoln LS is discontinued...:(...I just started warming up to her, too...

i agree with staying away from the e90's. new model, lots of bugs. not expensive to fix the bugs (full warranty), just a PIA.

e46's are GREAT cars (99-05 3series, 00-present M3's), if you want serious performance, no, but everyday badassedness and very very very reliable, comfortable cars, 330i/is is where it's at. (330is is only available in coupes i think). You could pick up a pre-owned e46 with a manual for around 28k. And if you got a 325ix WAGON, you have tons of room, massive balls, great great great handling, and an extremely reliable car. The owner of Cunningham BMW's wife only drives the new cars as much as she's requiered to (owners and presidents are required to drive specific cars, enforced by BMW NA), she loves her wagon. And it's a 2001!!! they tow it all across the country behind their "bus" (multi-million dollar prevost motorcoach).

but other than BMW's (i'll never own anything else personally), don't discount the volvo. One of the techs @ Cunningham BMW (san diego) had one when i worked there and he let me drive it. HO-LEE-BALLS the thing SOUNDS amazing, SO comfortable, stops on a freaking dime, handles incredibly, and makes your cheeks wiggle with it pinned to the floor. He never had any problems with it, he loves it.

i don't like subarus. they just don't interest me. great cars, just boring IMO.

Audis are great cars, very reliable, great performance, my mom has an 05 A4 and hasn't had a single problem with it. But the 3 different A4's i've driven were so varied in quality that i think it's a hit-or-miss thing with them. You'd have to find one thats been meticulously maintained...

one more thing about BMW's. Buy low-mileage lease returns, get the extended warranty, when that expires, sell it and get something else. You only hang on to old bmws...

I agree with Mak re fwd vs rwd vs awd.  AWD can be nice, but RWD provides just as good handling with less weight/complexity.  In TX I really wouldn't be worried about inclement weather, unless you don't plan on staying in the south.  I had an old Legacy GT (1997: 2.5L no turbo) and it was great in the deep snow (up to the bumper or more deep), but I'm as happy or happier driving a FWD in light snow and at slippery highway speeds.  If you're really worried about a RWD in the snow don't forget all the new ones have great traction control and they are great with snow tires. 

That being said, Subaru's are decent cars in my experience, but the quality (fit, finish, etc.) is no where near the level of any of the European cars mentioned or Lexus.  Also, I've heard bad things about Subaru manual transmissions... sounds like the clutch wears out pretty quickly, like 60k miles or something.  Maybe these things have changed on the newer Subies though, I'm not sure. 

Another vote for the Subaru.  My wife (non lesbian  :)) has a 2004 Forester XT auto and the thing is freaking awesome.  Not a big Volvo fan....my mom had the big SUV 2 years ago and it was constantly in the shop and the interior looked cheap.  Audi's are nice too.  My dad is on his 3rd audi (2nd A8) and never has issues.  My grandma has the A4, along with a leadfoot, and she loves it too.  Just my .02.

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 24, 2007, 10:31:14 PM
http://fast4wheels.com/cars_for_sale.html#car3

now I dont know if this would or would not meet your needs but its an idea and I know it is a very desirable vehicle.

It's not a sedan, so no, not what I'm looking for.

Quote from: makenzie71 on February 24, 2007, 11:11:39 PM
Ok I haven't really read all the suggestions thus far but I did catch you dismiss the STi because it's too "ricer" looking.  Let me tell you something about the STi...it has options.  There's more than one STi roaming the streets that looks identicle to the RS except 18" wheels.  The only reason those cars have 18" wheels is because those big f%$king brembos don't fit behind anything else.  If you can afford it, don't be so quick to dismiss it.

Downside to the STi is that it's not a very reliable car.  Neither is the WRX.  Both are plagued with transmission troubles and the simple fact that they're turbo cars makes them that much less reliable...many, many more parts to break and I've seen those monstrous snouts of theirs inhale birds which resulted in the need of a new intercooler.  300+ whp is already stressing that block.

The only option with the STi came in '07, where they took off the big wing and didn't put gold wheels on it, making it more subtle. But even then, it still looks like a ricer car to me. Dunno, just not a big fan of the styling. And you're right, it isn't very reliable from what I've read. The Legacy is a toned down STi, both in looks and power. However, this doesn't mean it's a slouch. 250HP is more than enough.

Quote from: makenzie71 on February 24, 2007, 11:11:39 PM
I wouldn't get an STi, though.  In fact, I wouldn't be looking for AWD.  Trust me, AWD isn't going to do anything but shave your 60ft times a little and eat tires.  Having driven all varieties of drivetrains in ALL varieties of road (and off) conditions, rear wheel drive is 100% where it's at.  If you're really that concerned with poor weather driveabillity, AWD isn't going to get you anything that FWD won't, and you'll spend less on the car.

I am really not intending to buy a FWD car ever again. I don't like them, just personal preference. If the time comes around and no AWD vehicles are availible in my price range, or none in my area, I would be considering a RWD sport sedan as an alternative. This opens up the market to all the BMW 3s, Lexus IS, Infiniti G35, and a host of others.

Quote from: makenzie71 on February 24, 2007, 11:11:39 PM
The ONLY AWD new car on the market that I would suggest buying is the Volkswagen Golf R32.  AWD, 6spd, stupid fast.

Still a coupe, and a bit smaller than what I'm looking for. Hatchbacks are usually in the compact car category, whereas wagons are more common with the fuller size sedans I'm considering. A wagon wouldn't be too bad.

Quote from: makenzie71 on February 24, 2007, 11:11:39 PM
If you're going for a new car, I would suggest staying away from the E90.  BMW just dropped it on the market and it's just not what I would call reliable yet.  The E46 is a better option, but it's also not my favorite.  If I had to run with an E46 I wouldn't settle for anything less than the 330i.  I would much more prefer get an E36 and if you got the money to spend, look for a 1997 or 1998 M3/4.  Those are the only 4-door M3's...EVER.  They're much more balanced than the coupes, a little lighter, and actually have fewer body/mechanical problems than all the coupes.  That's going to be my ultimate suggestion to you; '97/98 M3/4.  Follewed by a 328i or iS.

I'm looking at new cars now, because they will be used when I am looking to buy, a few years from now. I don't want to buy a 10 year old car but I don't want to buy new either, so you can see why I'm looking at more recent model vehicles. Also, I think the M3 is a bit harder edged sports car than I am looking for. I'm not looking for balls to the wall sports car with four doors, nor am I looking for a plain ol' family sedan. I'm trying to find the balance between those two.

Quote from: makenzie71 on February 24, 2007, 11:11:39 PM
Again, though, if a new car is a must, look at Lincoln.  Seriously.  The LS is a badass platform and their six puts down nearly as much torque as the V8 option.  The 5spd is realy crisp and direct and the car, despite what you would think, is designed by people who wanted a sports sedan.  The suspension is stiff, the car is low, the driving postion is aggressive...it was built to compete directly with the BMW 5-series and only falters by fractions of seconds across the run scenario and in general fit-n-finnish ($30k car vs $50k car, though).

I read up on the LS, and all the reviews pretty much said the same thing; with the improvements in '03, the LS does get more sporty, but not up to par with the likes of the Europeans and Japanese.

Quote from: makenzie71 on February 24, 2007, 11:11:39 PM
Another new car I would suggest Pontiac GTO.  LOTS of power all over the place and it's a 6spd.

Yeah, a big honkin' V8 will give you power all over, but the gas mileage is attrocious, which is why I'm tending to stick with 6cyl or less (note my main two choices were turbocharged 4cyl engines). Plus, it's a coupe. I really like having a sedan.

Quote from: makenzie71 on February 24, 2007, 11:15:55 PM
Ok the 2.0 quattros are also badasses but some of them stretch quite beyond STi pricing.  I don't really know what you're looking to spend.

Being as immersed in the car world as I tend to be, hit me up with your price range and I'll just tell you what most badass per buck thing there is.

The price range is roughly $30-35k new, which means used prices in a few years will be much more reasonable.

Quote from: ledfingers on February 25, 2007, 02:41:15 AM
i agree with staying away from the e90's. new model, lots of bugs. not expensive to fix the bugs (full warranty), just a PIA.

e46's are GREAT cars (99-05 3series, 00-present M3's), if you want serious performance, no, but everyday badassedness and very very very reliable, comfortable cars, 330i/is is where it's at. (330is is only available in coupes i think). You could pick up a pre-owned e46 with a manual for around 28k. And if you got a 325ix WAGON, you have tons of room, massive balls, great great great handling, and an extremely reliable car.

I think you and I have different ideas of what very very very reliable means. I know a few people with BMW 3-series, and compared to what I'm used to (Hondas and Toyotas) they aren't nearly as reliable. BMWs are reliable just like Ducatis are reliable.

Quote from: ledfingers on February 25, 2007, 02:41:15 AM
but other than BMW's (i'll never own anything else personally), don't discount the volvo. One of the techs @ Cunningham BMW (san diego) had one when i worked there and he let me drive it. HO-LEE-BALLS the thing SOUNDS amazing, SO comfortable, stops on a freaking dime, handles incredibly, and makes your cheeks wiggle with it pinned to the floor. He never had any problems with it, he loves it.

And from the reviews I've read (multiple reviews from different magazines and personal drive tests from people), the Volvos are just the opposite of that. More of a family sedan than a sport sedan.

Quote from: ledfingers on February 25, 2007, 02:41:15 AM
one more thing about BMW's. Buy low-mileage lease returns, get the extended warranty, when that expires, sell it and get something else. You only hang on to old bmws...

I'm not looking to keep buying cars, that is a waste of money to me. I am looking to buy a car that I can keep for a long time. A car is a serious investment for me, and I'm not just going to buy, use, then sell in a few years so I can get something newer. I intend to keep this car until it refuses to work anymore.

Quote from: manofthefield on February 25, 2007, 07:19:05 AM
That being said, Subaru's are decent cars in my experience, but the quality (fit, finish, etc.) is no where near the level of any of the European cars mentioned or Lexus.  Also, I've heard bad things about Subaru manual transmissions... sounds like the clutch wears out pretty quickly, like 60k miles or something.  Maybe these things have changed on the newer Subies though, I'm not sure. 

The Legacy, when redesigned in '05, was designed to compete with the European cars or higher end Japanese cars. The interior quality got a significant upgrade, and included many standard options (leather seating, power front seats, heated front seats, leather wrapped steering wheel, etc), as well as improvements to the mechanical work. I did hear about the clutch issues on a few of the Subarus, but I think they were isolated instances and mainly a factor of how the person drove.

Quote from: LPC2104 on February 25, 2007, 10:14:14 AM
Not a big Volvo fan....my mom had the big SUV 2 years ago and it was constantly in the shop and the interior looked cheap.

Yeah, a few of my friends in high school had Volvos for a while, and they had tons of little niggling issues. Power windows went out, air conditioning always breaking, power locks breaking, etc. Not my cup of tea.

before you knock the volvo's go drive one. I could care less what anyone sais . they handle better than most sports cars! dont always beleive the reviews they dont really mean crap. test drive as many things as you can , and take them to the limit when you test them out.  ive owned 4 volvos in my life and one of them had 400k on it. I dont see to many people driving there cars 400k on original engines and transmissions. this is somthing common with volvo. its called HIGH MIELAGE CLUB. they actually have a registared club. Im not trying to force these on you I just keep reading that you are only reading about these cars and hearing about highschool kids and woman who probly know nothing of these cars.

if you got the Money I would go EUROPEAN they are going to handle better and last longer!

BMW
VOLVO
VW 

these are the cars you should be looking at.   
Japanese stuff is ok but will not last you as long as european engineering.

also about the comment on V8's most V*8's are making just as much fuel economy ratings as the V6's and even some of the 4cylinders. when my moms mercury mountianier with the 4.6L V8 is getting an avg of 20-22mpg  ... I would say thats pretty damn good. thats not outrages at all.  you are not going to get that great of mpg with a turbo vehicle either. if you drive the thing like a granny sure you can see 30+mpg  but when you get down on the thing or drive it a lot in traffic those numbers dont look so pretty they are closer to the v8 numbers. How do I know this. well Ive owned a few turbo vehicles they arent all that they are cracked up to be. harder to maintain and work on and are just not as reliable as a N/A vehicle.

like I said these are all just opinions. YOu should buy 100% what you like driving the best and what will last you.

keep us updated one what you test drive and what you like best of luck

aye none of us are buying the vehicle, you are. i averaged 20 mpg in the city in my chevy truck (350 v8) arond 12 if i hammered teh bejeezus outta it

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 25, 2007, 12:15:24 PM
before you knock the volvo's go drive one. I could care less what anyone sais . they handle better than most sports cars! dont always beleive the reviews they dont really mean crap. test drive as many things as you can , and take them to the limit when you test them out.  ive owned 4 volvos in my life and one of them had 400k on it. I dont see to many people driving there cars 400k on original engines and transmissions. this is somthing common with volvo. its called HIGH MIELAGE CLUB. they actually have a registared club. Im not trying to force these on you I just keep reading that you are only reading about these cars and hearing about highschool kids and woman who probly know nothing of these cars.

I've driven a few of the older Volvos, both turbo and non turbo varients. I have never been impressed with the handling nor the quality level in any of the ones I have been in. Also, there is more to a car than just engine and transmission. The stuff I mentioned earlier, the niggling little problems, play a big factor in true reliability. And I'm not just reading about these cars and hearing about high schoolers and women who know nothing about them, I'm reading performance tests from major magazines as well as usability tests from every day people. It doesn't matter whether or not they know anything about the cars themselves, their opinions on the car can reflect something about its nature. The S40/V50 are notably slower and poorer handling than their competition (and this comes from multiple organizations' test data), and are notably unrefined compared to other vehicles in their class. It is not just one source saying this, it is multiple sources.

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 25, 2007, 12:15:24 PM
if you got the Money I would go EUROPEAN they are going to handle better and last longer!

these are the cars you should be looking at.   
Japanese stuff is ok but will not last you as long as european engineering.

Hahahahahaha. You're joking, right? Modern Japanese vehicles (from about 1985 on) are considered the most reliable vehicles on the road by pretty much anyone with knowledge on the subject. I drove a 1989 Honda Accord for a few years before we sold it to my cousin. It now has over 250k miles on it, and has never had a single issue. Just changed the oil and drive. It has never been in the shop for a single problem because it still runs like it did when it was new. My uncle has a 1987 Toyota Corolla with over 350k on it. All he's done is change the oil and tires, brakes and filters (regular maintenance). All the electronics still work, and the brakes and power steering still work perfectly, and the engine has always had strong compression. It has never had an engine rebuild, nor has it ever needed any transmission work or exhaust work. He doesn't baby the thing when he drives it either. He lives in Houston, which means it's like Atlanta, but with fewer lanes. His wife said that if the car ever gave up on him entirely (he would still have to do the standard maintenance), then he could buy a new car. It's still going and refuses to die.

As for the handling, Acura (Honda), Mazda, and Subaru are all highly regarded for their excellent handling cars. Even Nissan and Infiniti have quite a few vehicles that trounce their European competition.

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 25, 2007, 12:15:24 PM
also about the comment on V8's most V*8's are making just as much fuel economy ratings as the V6's and even some of the 4cylinders. when my moms mercury mountianier with the 4.6L V8 is getting an avg of 20-22mpg  ... I would say thats pretty damn good. thats not outrages at all.  you are not going to get that great of mpg with a turbo vehicle either. if you drive the thing like a granny sure you can see 30+mpg  but when you get down on the thing or drive it a lot in traffic those numbers dont look so pretty they are closer to the v8 numbers. How do I know this. well Ive owned a few turbo vehicles they arent all that they are cracked up to be. harder to maintain and work on and are just not as reliable as a N/A vehicle.

Mazda Miata (2.0L I4) - 27mpg
Honda Civic Si (2.0L I4) - 27mpg
Subaru Legacy 2.5i (2.5L boxer 4) - 21mpg
Subaru Legacy GT (2.5L turbo boxer 4) - 20mpg
Audi A4 (2.0L turbo I4) - 23mpg
BMW 325i (3.0L I6) - 24mpg
Scion tC (w/ TRD supercharger) (2.4L supercharged I4) - 26mpg
Lotus Elise (1.8L I4) - 29mpg
Volkswagen Passat (2.0L I4) - 24mpg

Dodge Magnum - (3.5L V6) - 19mpg
Mercedes-Benz SLK350 (3.5L V6) - 21mpg
Dodge Charger (3.5L V6) - 19mpg
Volkswagen Passat (3.6L V6) - 22mpg

Chevrolet Corvette - (6.0L V8) - 21mpg
Pontiac GTO (5.7L V8) - 17mpg
Cadillac CTS  (5.7L V8) - 17mpg
Audi S4 (4.2L V8) - 20mpg
Dodge Charger (5.7L V8) - 17mpg

So, notice a distinct trend? Only two of the V8 engine cars average over 20mpg, while most of the Four cylinder cars were in the mid 20s (average). The worst fuel economy achieved by the Legacy GT was 15mpg, with a high of 25mpg. The low for the V8 cars is always In the 11-13 range. My father's V8 F-150 averaged 15mpg on a regular basis, and 12mpg when we were pulling the boat.

well my experience will be different than your experience. so hopefully you find exactly what you want. keep us updated

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on February 25, 2007, 11:42:12 AM
The only option with the STi came in '07, where they took off the big wing and didn't put gold wheels on it, making it more subtle. But even then, it still looks like a ricer car to me. Dunno, just not a big fan of the styling. And you're right, it isn't very reliable from what I've read. The Legacy is a toned down STi, both in looks and power. However, this doesn't mean it's a slouch. 250HP is more than enough.

Trust me, you can buy the STi in whatever trim "look" you want it in.  Subaru is eager to sell them.  If it's the car for you, just waltz on in there and tell them you're not buying it unless it comes in RS trim (plus the necessary 18" wheels).  They'll have to order it, but they'll sell it to you that way.  Cheaper, too.  However, finding one used (your idea here) isn't feasable so yeah...not an option.

QuoteI am really not intending to buy a FWD car ever again. I don't like them, just personal preference. If the time comes around and no AWD vehicles are availible in my price range, or none in my area, I would be considering a RWD sport sedan as an alternative. This opens up the market to all the BMW 3s, Lexus IS, Infiniti G35, and a host of others.

Trust me, I fully understand.  I don't like front wheel drive cars...I especially do not like powerful front wheel drive cars.  Torque steer pisses me off.  However, you will have to keep an eye out for the available AWD cars.  See, most are built on front wheel drive chassis' and platforms (Audi, Volkswagen, Ford, Mitsubishi, even Subaru) and their drivelines are notorious front-wheel force-feeders.  Most AWD cars have a "dominant end" and you want to be sure that the base platform is rear wheel drive...that will make the rear the dominant.  Driving that other set of wheels, in most cases, is 100% afterthought and the setups just aren't balanced.

QuoteStill a coupe, and a bit smaller than what I'm looking for. Hatchbacks are usually in the compact car category, whereas wagons are more common with the fuller size sedans I'm considering. A wagon wouldn't be too bad.

I hadn't caught your need for a sedan.  I'm with you there, too...I'll never be able to own a coupe again as my sole automobil.

QuoteI'm looking at new cars now, because they will be used when I am looking to buy, a few years from now. I don't want to buy a 10 year old car but I don't want to buy new either, so you can see why I'm looking at more recent model vehicles. Also, I think the M3 is a bit harder edged sports car than I am looking for. I'm not looking for balls to the wall sports car with four doors, nor am I looking for a plain ol' family sedan. I'm trying to find the balance between those two.

Trust me...hunt down an M3/4 and drive it.  You'll find that perfect balance.  The M3/4 is everything the 328i is...quite spacious for a compact, stupendous fuel economy, crisp feel and nice fit/finnish...plus 40hp, 320mm brakes, and a slightly different tune suspension.  The ride in the M3 is no more "sporty" than the standard sedans/coupes.  The car's just faster to go and stop and far more planted when tossed through the curves.

QuoteI read up on the LS, and all the reviews pretty much said the same thing; with the improvements in '03, the LS does get more sporty, but not up to par with the likes of the Europeans and Japanese.

I didn't think much of them until I drove one...changed my mind, but no, I would never trade my BMW for one.

QuoteYeah, a big honkin' V8 will give you power all over, but the gas mileage is attrocious, which is why I'm tending to stick with 6cyl or less (note my main two choices were turbocharged 4cyl engines). Plus, it's a coupe. I really like having a sedan.

I wouldn't get one, either...well I would probably get one for Kalee...but it's the only other car I could think of at the time with badassness.  However, I toyed with one around town not too long ago...hitting the mall and some other joints and stop-n-go traffic she held around 18mpg.  My bimmer does just a hair better.  On the highway, though, we ran about 25mpg...my 328i runs 30~35.  Lots of power, and economy isn't too bad.

QuoteThe price range is roughly $30-35k new, which means used prices in a few years will be much more reasonable.

QuoteI think you and I have different ideas of what very very very reliable means. I know a few people with BMW 3-series, and compared to what I'm used to (Hondas and Toyotas) they aren't nearly as reliable. BMWs are reliable just like Ducatis are reliable.

No no no...Ducatis are reliable like AMF Harleys are reliable.  There's a very good reason why 87% of BMW's North American sales are to repeat customers or family of repeat customers...and why I, after spending my life in all varieties of Japanese cars (MKI/II/III/IV Supras, FB/C/D RX-7's, Imprezzas, Lexus', Civics, Mirages, Accords, Camrys, Galants, VR4's of all models, etc), I will be one of those "repeat customers" BMW is so proud of.

I can tell you this...I inherited my car with one problem (clogged ICV...too lazy to fix it), and in the 60k I've put on her in the two years I've had it, I've never had a problem that was not my doing.  She'll be turning 200k before Summer.  My last one (1994 325iS) had 315k on the clock when I traded her for the Porsche (yeah don't get a porsche).

QuoteAnd from the reviews I've read (multiple reviews from different magazines and personal drive tests from people), the Volvos are just the opposite of that. More of a family sedan than a sport sedan..

Spot on.  Drive one.  You'll see.  Unless you spend $50k on one, you'll be disapointed...unless you want your wife and kids to be safe.

QuoteI'm not looking to keep buying cars, that is a waste of money to me. I am looking to buy a car that I can keep for a long time. A car is a serious investment for me, and I'm not just going to buy, use, then sell in a few years so I can get something newer. I intend to keep this car until it refuses to work anymore.

It's a pointless idea anyway.

QuoteI did hear about the clutch issues on a few of the Subarus, but I think they were isolated instances and mainly a factor of how the person drove.

It's not just a clutch thing...I know that you shouldn't expect 3rd gear to last very long in an STi or if you boost up a WRX.  It's also not isolated.  It may be sorted out by now, but I'm not a fan of any company who will actually deny a factory flaw that more than 50% of the consumers suffer from.

Okay now your $30k~ish price range is somewhat vague because cars depreciate on WILDLY different levels...so I'm going to speak of cars you should be able to get for $20k or under RIGHT NOW.  That will put between $17k and $19k in the next 12~24 months.

First, and foremost, suggestion.  1998 M3/4.  As said, this is basically a compact family sedan with sportscar motor, brakes, and a sportier suspension.  You really need to get stiffer bushings and springs, and variable rate struts to make the car handle like a REAL sports car.  The M3 isn't that much better on the track, handling wise, than the 318.  Right now there is a NICE Byzanz (the best color) M3/4 for sale in Houston with 102k on the clock for $17,800.  You'll be able to average 25mpg with this car.

Second suggestion would be a 2003 BMW 330i.  This was the last model before the "touch up".  It's got the BEST 5spd transmission BMW has conjured up to date, in my opinion.  It's toned more as a family-type car, but it'll handle up there with the E36 M3 and she's almost as quick.  They're pretty stout.  These run between $17k and $20k right now.  The 2004 is a better car, in my opinion, but you'll have a hard time finding one for under $25k right now.

Third suggestion would be an E39 528i.  Now, these cars are essentially the same from like 1996 or 97 up until 2003, minus some mild body changes, and they can be had from $6000 to $30,000.  These cars are basically the E36 + some space.  They're light and sporty, awesome handling for the size, good fuel economy, and they look nice.  Plus, it's so easy to find ET20 wheels with 3" lips...just look badass.  If you want I've got a buddy in Austin with a 2000 528i/5spd and I'm sure he wouldn't mind letting you see what the car is like to drive.  This will likely be my next car if I don't just drop an M3 block in my 328.  I will say, though, that the 5-series has always been the most plagued with little grmlins, but by the time the E39 came out they were simple things like the onboard computer telling you your tailights were out and other things that are mostly just iritating, not real problems.

I've also a couple friends with both E36's and E46's available that would also let you check them out.

I'll post more suggestions later...of other makes...but the simpsons is coming on.  You know...prioraties.

oops...still 24 laps of the NEXTEL race.  First twenty, 75~100, and the last 4 are the only really interesting laps.

Another car I would suggest, though it's older and WAAAYYYYY under your budget, is an E34 525i.  Bullitproof...can't be beaten.  I've personally seen two 350k+ all-original E34 525's.

To point out that I'm not ENTIRELY BMW biased, I'll add that only idiots own X5's, X3's, or 7-series BMW's.  The X's were never any good, and the 7's stopped being worth a shaZam! in the early 90's.

Anyway...I'll try and move away from my BMW bias for a bit and make some other suggestions.  However, finding other reliable RWD/AWD cars that I think are good bets is...umm...difficult...

I will say that the Impreza RS is a good car.  As long as you don't go to stressing that block it'll run forever.  You can find just about any year for under your price limit.

Anything with a 2JZ in it will run forever, but about the only 2JZ cars you'll find with a 5spd outside of the Supra are Soarers and good luck with that.  The 3SGE in the GHSX10 (RS200...first IS we saw in the states) is a badass, though, and the V160 is the best getrag tranny you will find in ANY car (which is why the best cars in the world use variants of the same Getrag).  I would stay way away from the new line of Lexuses, though, because nearly everything about this is new...not reliable yet.

The MazdaSpeed 6 is somewhat intriguing, but it's too expensive, too new, and the AWD system sucks.  It's WAY too front-biased...even without my incredibly critical view of front-biased awd cars.  The central difarential in these cars is computer/hydrolic controlled...completely useless.  The only time you'll see full power delivered to the rear is when you don't really need it...and you're prevented from seeing a rear bias...ever.

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on February 25, 2007, 02:50:41 PM

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 25, 2007, 12:15:24 PM
before you knock the volvo's go drive one. I could care less what anyone sais . they handle better than most sports cars! dont always beleive the reviews they dont really mean crap. test drive as many things as you can , and take them to the limit when you test them out.  ive owned 4 volvos in my life and one of them had 400k on it. I dont see to many people driving there cars 400k on original engines and transmissions. this is somthing common with volvo. its called HIGH MIELAGE CLUB. they actually have a registared club. Im not trying to force these on you I just keep reading that you are only reading about these cars and hearing about highschool kids and woman who probly know nothing of these cars.

I've driven a few of the older Volvos, both turbo and non turbo varients. I have never been impressed with the handling nor the quality level in any of the ones I have been in. Also, there is more to a car than just engine and transmission. The stuff I mentioned earlier, the niggling little problems, play a big factor in true reliability. And I'm not just reading about these cars and hearing about high schoolers and women who know nothing about them, I'm reading performance tests from major magazines as well as usability tests from every day people. It doesn't matter whether or not they know anything about the cars themselves, their opinions on the car can reflect something about its nature. The S40/V50 are notably slower and poorer handling than their competition (and this comes from multiple organizations' test data), and are notably unrefined compared to other vehicles in their class. It is not just one source saying this, it is multiple sources.

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 25, 2007, 12:15:24 PM
if you got the Money I would go EUROPEAN they are going to handle better and last longer!

these are the cars you should be looking at.   
Japanese stuff is ok but will not last you as long as european engineering.

Hahahahahaha. You're joking, right? Modern Japanese vehicles (from about 1985 on) are considered the most reliable vehicles on the road by pretty much anyone with knowledge on the subject. I drove a 1989 Honda Accord for a few years before we sold it to my cousin. It now has over 250k miles on it, and has never had a single issue. Just changed the oil and drive. It has never been in the shop for a single problem because it still runs like it did when it was new. My uncle has a 1987 Toyota Corolla with over 350k on it. All he's done is change the oil and tires, brakes and filters (regular maintenance). All the electronics still work, and the brakes and power steering still work perfectly, and the engine has always had strong compression. It has never had an engine rebuild, nor has it ever needed any transmission work or exhaust work. He doesn't baby the thing when he drives it either. He lives in Houston, which means it's like Atlanta, but with fewer lanes. His wife said that if the car ever gave up on him entirely (he would still have to do the standard maintenance), then he could buy a new car. It's still going and refuses to die.

As for the handling, Acura (Honda), Mazda, and Subaru are all highly regarded for their excellent handling cars. Even Nissan and Infiniti have quite a few vehicles that trounce their European competition.

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 25, 2007, 12:15:24 PM
also about the comment on V8's most V*8's are making just as much fuel economy ratings as the V6's and even some of the 4cylinders. when my moms mercury mountianier with the 4.6L V8 is getting an avg of 20-22mpg  ... I would say thats pretty damn good. thats not outrages at all.  you are not going to get that great of mpg with a turbo vehicle either. if you drive the thing like a granny sure you can see 30+mpg  but when you get down on the thing or drive it a lot in traffic those numbers dont look so pretty they are closer to the v8 numbers. How do I know this. well Ive owned a few turbo vehicles they arent all that they are cracked up to be. harder to maintain and work on and are just not as reliable as a N/A vehicle.

Mazda Miata (2.0L I4) - 27mpg
Honda Civic Si (2.0L I4) - 27mpg
Subaru Legacy 2.5i (2.5L boxer 4) - 21mpg
Subaru Legacy GT (2.5L turbo boxer 4) - 20mpg
Audi A4 (2.0L turbo I4) - 23mpg
BMW 325i (3.0L I6) - 24mpg
Scion tC (w/ TRD supercharger) (2.4L supercharged I4) - 26mpg
Lotus Elise (1.8L I4) - 29mpg
Volkswagen Passat (2.0L I4) - 24mpg

Dodge Magnum - (3.5L V6) - 19mpg
Mercedes-Benz SLK350 (3.5L V6) - 21mpg
Dodge Charger (3.5L V6) - 19mpg
Volkswagen Passat (3.6L V6) - 22mpg

Chevrolet Corvette - (6.0L V8) - 21mpg
Pontiac GTO (5.7L V8) - 17mpg
Cadillac CTS  (5.7L V8) - 17mpg
Audi S4 (4.2L V8) - 20mpg
Dodge Charger (5.7L V8) - 17mpg

So, notice a distinct trend? Only two of the V8 engine cars average over 20mpg, while most of the Four cylinder cars were in the mid 20s (average). The worst fuel economy achieved by the Legacy GT was 15mpg, with a high of 25mpg. The low for the V8 cars is always In the 11-13 range. My father's V8 F-150 averaged 15mpg on a regular basis, and 12mpg when we were pulling the boat.

i dont get it! how can your cars only give you like 20mph max. Over here in europe petrol and diesel is so expensive that the demand for good mpg is insane, and by good mpg our cars we drive around wana be doin 30mpg at the lowest, my dads merc clk 230 did 50.

I just don't understand why the cars are set up different for the US? if we hav the same brand and model cars producing twice the mpg as the models your getting over there. its crazy

Mak, regarding the WRX, I'd rather just get the Legacy since it is a) more readily availible, b) far cheaper, and c)

Since I think I've got most of the AWD sport sedans down already (keep opinions coming), let's move into RWD sedans.

Mak, what is your take on the Infiniti G35 sedan and the Lexus IS300?

Also, if I ever did get a V8, it'd be a Ford Mustang GT, or if I had the extra cash to spend, the Ford Mustang Shelby GT500, which kinda deviates from my sport sedan desires.

Quote from: Kasumi on February 25, 2007, 05:32:50 PM
i dont get it! how can your cars only give you like 20mph max. Over here in europe petrol and diesel is so expensive that the demand for good mpg is insane, and by good mpg our cars we drive around wana be doin 30mpg at the lowest, my dads merc clk 230 did 50.

I just don't understand why the cars are set up different for the US? if we hav the same brand and model cars producing twice the mpg as the models your getting over there. its crazy

Those wern't max mpg stats, those were average. Also, remember that 1.0 imperial gallon = 1.2 US gallon.

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on February 25, 2007, 08:11:53 PMMak, what is your take on the Infiniti G35 sedan and the Lexus IS300?

I thought the G35 looked a bit cheap on the inside, but overall they're too new to really tell how good the fit-n-finnish is.  Some of the interior panels seemed cheap and too purple-prose...things seemed to bolster out when a nice flat surface would have sufficed.  Things like this are what cut most of the spaciousness out of a car.  The engine is strong enough to catch your attention, but it's on the whole uninspiring.  I think the VQ35DE was a bad choice for the car.  They wanted an "americanized" Skyline...the car should have gotten the VQ35HR at the very least.  I really don't understand what Nissan was thinking when they started yelling "we're selling the Skylin in the US as the G35 coupe/sedan!"  When we think Skyline, we think GT/GTR.  Oh well.

The IS I like.  Like I said, anything with a 2JZ is dandy by me.  The better car, performance-wise, is the 3SGE/V160 equiped RS200 (the I4 IS300).  It's a better balance and the engine is a platform of immense potential.  I lust after the exterior...the lines are sexy, the stance is mean, it's an eye-catcher.  My biggest gripe about the IS300 is that teh interior is straight hideous in my opinion, and the instrument cluster pisses me off.  It's a "sports sedan".  You expect goofy looking contemporary guages in a beetle or an echo...not something they claim is competing with BMW.  A sports car, no matter how many doors it's got, should have HUGE easy to read analog guages.

I will note that two of the IS300's I've ridden in and driven had develope definite creaks and rattles before 100k.  To most people it wouldn't be a thing to concern yourself with, but I have a tendency to want to do maintainance to anything that creaks and rattles.

Quote from: Kasumi on February 25, 2007, 05:32:50 PM

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on February 25, 2007, 02:50:41 PM

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 25, 2007, 12:15:24 PM
before you knock the volvo's go drive one. I could care less what anyone sais . they handle better than most sports cars! dont always beleive the reviews they dont really mean crap. test drive as many things as you can , and take them to the limit when you test them out.  ive owned 4 volvos in my life and one of them had 400k on it. I dont see to many people driving there cars 400k on original engines and transmissions. this is somthing common with volvo. its called HIGH MIELAGE CLUB. they actually have a registared club. Im not trying to force these on you I just keep reading that you are only reading about these cars and hearing about highschool kids and woman who probly know nothing of these cars.

I've driven a few of the older Volvos, both turbo and non turbo varients. I have never been impressed with the handling nor the quality level in any of the ones I have been in. Also, there is more to a car than just engine and transmission. The stuff I mentioned earlier, the niggling little problems, play a big factor in true reliability. And I'm not just reading about these cars and hearing about high schoolers and women who know nothing about them, I'm reading performance tests from major magazines as well as usability tests from every day people. It doesn't matter whether or not they know anything about the cars themselves, their opinions on the car can reflect something about its nature. The S40/V50 are notably slower and poorer handling than their competition (and this comes from multiple organizations' test data), and are notably unrefined compared to other vehicles in their class. It is not just one source saying this, it is multiple sources.

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 25, 2007, 12:15:24 PM
if you got the Money I would go EUROPEAN they are going to handle better and last longer!

these are the cars you should be looking at.   
Japanese stuff is ok but will not last you as long as european engineering.

Hahahahahaha. You're joking, right? Modern Japanese vehicles (from about 1985 on) are considered the most reliable vehicles on the road by pretty much anyone with knowledge on the subject. I drove a 1989 Honda Accord for a few years before we sold it to my cousin. It now has over 250k miles on it, and has never had a single issue. Just changed the oil and drive. It has never been in the shop for a single problem because it still runs like it did when it was new. My uncle has a 1987 Toyota Corolla with over 350k on it. All he's done is change the oil and tires, brakes and filters (regular maintenance). All the electronics still work, and the brakes and power steering still work perfectly, and the engine has always had strong compression. It has never had an engine rebuild, nor has it ever needed any transmission work or exhaust work. He doesn't baby the thing when he drives it either. He lives in Houston, which means it's like Atlanta, but with fewer lanes. His wife said that if the car ever gave up on him entirely (he would still have to do the standard maintenance), then he could buy a new car. It's still going and refuses to die.

As for the handling, Acura (Honda), Mazda, and Subaru are all highly regarded for their excellent handling cars. Even Nissan and Infiniti have quite a few vehicles that trounce their European competition.

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 25, 2007, 12:15:24 PM
also about the comment on V8's most V*8's are making just as much fuel economy ratings as the V6's and even some of the 4cylinders. when my moms mercury mountianier with the 4.6L V8 is getting an avg of 20-22mpg  ... I would say thats pretty damn good. thats not outrages at all.  you are not going to get that great of mpg with a turbo vehicle either. if you drive the thing like a granny sure you can see 30+mpg  but when you get down on the thing or drive it a lot in traffic those numbers dont look so pretty they are closer to the v8 numbers. How do I know this. well Ive owned a few turbo vehicles they arent all that they are cracked up to be. harder to maintain and work on and are just not as reliable as a N/A vehicle.

Mazda Miata (2.0L I4) - 27mpg
Honda Civic Si (2.0L I4) - 27mpg
Subaru Legacy 2.5i (2.5L boxer 4) - 21mpg
Subaru Legacy GT (2.5L turbo boxer 4) - 20mpg
Audi A4 (2.0L turbo I4) - 23mpg
BMW 325i (3.0L I6) - 24mpg
Scion tC (w/ TRD supercharger) (2.4L supercharged I4) - 26mpg
Lotus Elise (1.8L I4) - 29mpg
Volkswagen Passat (2.0L I4) - 24mpg

Dodge Magnum - (3.5L V6) - 19mpg
Mercedes-Benz SLK350 (3.5L V6) - 21mpg
Dodge Charger (3.5L V6) - 19mpg
Volkswagen Passat (3.6L V6) - 22mpg

Chevrolet Corvette - (6.0L V8) - 21mpg
Pontiac GTO (5.7L V8) - 17mpg
Cadillac CTS  (5.7L V8) - 17mpg
Audi S4 (4.2L V8) - 20mpg
Dodge Charger (5.7L V8) - 17mpg

So, notice a distinct trend? Only two of the V8 engine cars average over 20mpg, while most of the Four cylinder cars were in the mid 20s (average). The worst fuel economy achieved by the Legacy GT was 15mpg, with a high of 25mpg. The low for the V8 cars is always In the 11-13 range. My father's V8 F-150 averaged 15mpg on a regular basis, and 12mpg when we were pulling the boat.

i dont get it! how can your cars only give you like 20mph max. Over here in europe petrol and diesel is so expensive that the demand for good mpg is insane, and by good mpg our cars we drive around wana be doin 30mpg at the lowest, my dads merc clk 230 did 50.

I just don't understand why the cars are set up different for the US? if we hav the same brand and model cars producing twice the mpg as the models your getting over there. its crazy

its the emissions BS the cars have to go through.  once I took all that crap off my 91 Sentra SER and put a nice JDM motor in. MPG went up!

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 25, 2007, 08:54:52 PM
its the emissions BS the cars have to go through.  once I took all that crap off my 91 Sentra SER and put a nice JDM motor in. MPG went up!

You're smoking/drinking, right?  You do know that a vehicle that passes Euro emmissions standards will be deamed fit for human consumption in Cali, right?

The biggest difference in the economies between the two continents is that there's a difference in the actual volume per gallon.  Outside of that, the economy between vehicles there and here is roughly the same.  It's 100% in the person driving and maintaining the car.

Quote from: makenzie71 on February 25, 2007, 08:59:04 PM

Quote from: Susuki_Jah on February 25, 2007, 08:54:52 PM
its the emissions BS the cars have to go through.  once I took all that crap off my 91 Sentra SER and put a nice JDM motor in. MPG went up!

You're smoking/drinking, right?  You do know that a vehicle that passes Euro emmissions standards will be deamed fit for human consumption in Cali, right?

The biggest difference in the economies between the two continents is that there's a difference in the actual volume per gallon.  Outside of that, the economy between vehicles there and here is roughly the same.  It's 100% in the person driving and maintaining the car.

I honestly know nothing of Euro Emissions.  what exactly do you mean by the second sentence?
I have never really bought any engines from Europe directly. I only delt with JDM engines which do not have the Emissions systems on them or atleast the older cars did not.

school me

The United States is far far more lenient on emmissions restrictions than either Japan or Europe.

Quote from: makenzie71 on February 25, 2007, 09:15:47 PM
The United States is far far more lenient on emmissions restrictions than either Japan or Europe.

you can purchase a japanies engine from Japan that has no emissions on it. and this isnt somthing where they took them off. this is where they built the engines like that. the sr20de and DET is a good example of this in Japan. like I said I have no Idea about the rest of the countries.  this must have been somthing that japan has done recently. I was buying engines that were produced in the early 90's without these restrictions.   now I have no idea about their exhuast requirements or if they make up for this with the exhuast system.

Oh well I always see higher numbers in my cars than most people but then again I like to keep the RPM;s low

The biggest restrictions came about with the advent of OBDII.  I used to buy 13B's and 1JZ-GTE's and only have to pull EGR valves.  Some of the later model engines, though, you have to run full USDM intakes and wirings etc.  It gets progressively more complicated the further on in years you go.

Quote from: makenzie71 on February 25, 2007, 09:56:57 PM
The biggest restrictions came about with the advent of OBDII.  I used to buy 13B's and 1JZ-GTE's and only have to pull EGR valves.  Some of the later model engines, though, you have to run full USDM intakes and wirings etc.  It gets progressively more complicated the further on in years you go.

that would make since, considering the b13 sentra was a OBDI and then the B14 which was introduced in 95 was OBDII .. they also changed the motor from a hi-port to low port I beleive it was. basically different camshafts which caused the vehicle to perform worse.

ehh i still prefer rwd vehicles, mainly because if your wheels spin on an fwd car you lose steering. on an awd car you lose everything pretty much, awd is nice dont get me wrong, ( ive had a few) (cars with awd that is) i still have had better luck with rwd than anything else, or a vehicle where i can switch the front drive unit off and be rwd only

QuoteIt doesn't matter whether or not they know anything about the cars themselves, their opinions on the car can reflect something about its nature.

not quite true in my opinion. I was a lot manager for a BMW dealership, i dealt with customers all day. Something entirely inconsiquential will send them into a tizzy, they make gross generalizations and assume that one fault with the car (generally CAUSED BY THEM, in my experience) means the whole car is complete crap. Then they go and rant about their frustrations on a website and give the car a bad name. If you've any mechanical knowledge, you'd understand, theres going to be bugs with any car, ESPECIALLY newer models.

Also, you're not wasting money by selling when the extended warranty expires. With a competent and high-ranking salesman (someone with tenure that has better negotiating power with the powers that be) you can end up with very little added expense by trading an older car in for a newer one. We had people come in just before their warranty was going to expire, leave the car in the service drive, walk onto the new lot point, and after a couple hours, be the owner of the new car with the same payments.

And anyone that tells you BMW's aren't reliable either A) never owned one and knows jack-s--t about them or B) didn't follow the maintenance schedule and trashed the car. We had an e30 (89 325) with 700k on it at the dealership, original motor and tranny, NO REBUILD, and still drove like new. If you take car of the car, it lasts forever. But if you take care of any decent car, it will last forever, it's not brand-based. Plus, theres always going to be that monday or friday car that just didn't get built with the same care as all the others...

The e39's are amazing cars, as mak said. Drive like a sports car, great economy, PLENTY of room, reliable. I drive an e28 right now (85 528e) and the thing has plenty of power. Everyone that i let drive in it or take for a "ride" in it is amazed at the balls the car has, i consider it slower because i know what the 535 can do, but even with 25+ mpg (with my foot light, 20+ living in high revs) the car flat out hauls.

I'm telling you, once you own a BMW, you'll never get anything else

I would have to agree with ledfingers, on the fact that reliability isnt brand based. If you look after a car and follow the proper maintencance shedule and generally take care of it then it is going to be fine. The problems arise from the people who buy their cars, drive the bejuzuz out of them doings thousands and thousands of miles and don't stop to take care of them. Yes i know this is because alot of people think its a new car it should be able to cope with it itself and yes alot of the time they will but they will last alot better if they don't  My dad's merc clk230 was just one of those monday to friday cars, it was absolutly amazing to drive, very sporty with plenty of power and gripped the road tight. However it just was doomed from day one, nothing could have predicted it, the alarm would go off, it would constantly be warning you of faults with it which it never had. They sent over a new computer from germany and installed it, it still had problems. In the end they just said, its one of those cars, took it away and delivered a new one which never had a single problem. Look after your cars and they will last, its very rare that cars these days are "unreliable." Plus if your worried about it, get a Kia - 5 year warrenty on all models at the moment, at least in the UK i imagine something similar in the US. By the car you like and treat it good and take the reviews of a few proper car choosing mags and get the general idea of what the experts think, rather than the opinions passed on by friends or over web forums. Just remeber very few people will post how good something is, they will only post when something goes wrong. So your getting a minortiy of people all with bad reviews for a vehicle, when actually the othe hundred odd thousand people with the same car are doing ok.

Onto another point, AWD is a fantastic thing in the snow, and so i FWD. RWD is far better handling wise and for a fun sport car. I agree if you want AWD and have a choice go for a car where you can turn AWD off and run on just RWD. This will be a huge advantage, although im not sure of many cars which have this feature, i can only really think of proper 4x4's mitsubishis and landy's and a few nissans.

Well if you decide to venture off the AWD, I would definitely recommend the car I currently own. I have an 05 Maxima SE 6 SPD. I have been very happy with the car. It's got a ton of legroom in the back seat, huge trunk, and I really love the looks. The performance is just amazing to me- it really hugs the road (SE is sport package with stiffer suspension and wider low-profile tires, SL is softer suspension and more comfortable tires), and the thing has gobs of power. As far as snow- I've driven it on snow and ice a bunch of times, and I've been extremely satisfied.
I got it from the dealership pretty much with no options at a good deal (Just shy of $28K). I don't really like leather, and everything else is what I wanted- down the middle "Mohawk" glass roof, 6 Speed Manual, Bose Sound System. I'm sure if you're into it, you can probably land a nice low-mileage used one for just under $20K.

Quote from: ledfingers on February 26, 2007, 12:17:37 AM
not quite true in my opinion. I was a lot manager for a BMW dealership, i dealt with customers all day. Something entirely inconsiquential will send them into a tizzy, they make gross generalizations and assume that one fault with the car (generally CAUSED BY THEM, in my experience) means the whole car is complete crap. Then they go and rant about their frustrations on a website and give the car a bad name. If you've any mechanical knowledge, you'd understand, theres going to be bugs with any car, ESPECIALLY newer models.

If power windows and power locks notoriously fail, if there are faulty temperature sensors, if the air conditioner goes out, if the car develops a water leak, but is still driveable beause the engine and
tranny are still great, this does NOT make for a reliable vehicle.

Quote from: ledfingers on February 26, 2007, 12:17:37 AM
Also, you're not wasting money by selling when the extended warranty expires. With a competent and high-ranking salesman (someone with tenure that has better negotiating power with the powers that be) you can end up with very little added expense by trading an older car in for a newer one. We had people come in just before their warranty was going to expire, leave the car in the service drive, walk onto the new lot point, and after a couple hours, be the owner of the new car with the same payments.

And personally, I think it's stupid and foolish and a waste of money to keep trading in vehicles. When I buy a car, I intend to keep it.

Quote from: ledfingers on February 26, 2007, 12:17:37 AM
And anyone that tells you BMW's aren't reliable either A) never owned one and knows jack-s--t about them or B) didn't follow the maintenance schedule and trashed the car. We had an e30 (89 325) with 700k on it at the dealership, original motor and tranny, NO REBUILD, and still drove like new. If you take car of the car, it lasts forever. But if you take care of any decent car, it will last forever, it's not brand-based. Plus, theres always going to be that monday or friday car that just didn't get built with the same care as all the others...

Engine and tranny; I keep hearing that, but y'all don't seem to get that just because the engine and transmission are reliable doesn't make the vehicle as a whole reliable. And saying that reliability isn't brand based is a load of crap. We had a Ford F-150 bought brand new that we took meticulous care of. After replacing the power window motors on both doors twice, a complete engine rebuild, a transmission failure, and two a/c failures, we sold the thing. We had a Crown Victoria that was also very well maintained. It had issues with the a/c, suspension, trunk release, power locks, and a few other little things. After getting nailed by an SUV we sold it for scrap. Same thing with the Oldsmobile Cutless we used to own as well. My father bought a Toyota Tacoma to replace his F-150 and has yet to have a single problem. I have a Honda Civic that I abuse (I haven't changed the oil in 7,000+ miles) and it still runs great.

Quote from: CasiUSA on February 26, 2007, 08:00:40 AM
Well if you decide to venture off the AWD, I would definitely recommend the car I currently own. I have an 05 Maxima SE 6 SPD.

Ewwwww, FWD!

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on February 26, 2007, 09:10:26 AM
Ewwwww, FWD!

Torque Steer= Delicious :laugh:

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on February 26, 2007, 09:10:26 AM
Engine and tranny; I keep hearing that, but y'all don't seem to get that just because the engine and transmission are reliable doesn't make the vehicle as a whole reliable.

I get that.  I fully understand what you're saying.  Here's a list of addressed problems with my car in 190,000 miles, plus costs and sources of the ones I've fixed:

1996 BMW 328i
Onboard Computer (OBC) reads brake light failure due to poor bulb contact.  Light works, but the poor signal trips the warning.
OBC reads ambient air temperature at either -35*c or +50*c (or the farunheit equivelant) due to faulty ambient air temperature sensor.
OBC reads "coolant level low" due to poor signal from coolant level sensor. $25, ebay
Passenger side window regulator eurethane bushings broke.  $11, ebay
HVAC fan motor failed.  $130, ebay
Stock Alpine headunit CD player broke.  $154, best buy, for a real headunit.
Glove box door sags 1/4".
Stock BMW-issued LED glovebox rechargeable flashlight battery died after 12 years of faithful service.  $11, wal-mart, to carry a MagLite in the car.

And the previous car:

1994 325iS
Waterpump failed (OBDI cars were composite).  $145, bavarian auto, to replace with all-metal pump.
Radiator fan failed (another OBDI problem).  $34, ebay, for a Ford SVT Contour fan.
OBC + tailight thing.  $4 for contact grease.
Driver's side door panel loose.  $8 for new clips from BMW.
Stock alpine speakers deteriorated in 2003.  $254 for Harmon Kardon components from BMW.
Guibo disc failed (bushings that sepearate the driveshaft from the dif/tranny).  $54, ebay
AC needed recharged and converted to R134.  Roughly $115 at any shop...never did it.

BMW's do not just have reliable motors and transmissions.  The car, as a whole, is reliable.  The common problems are almost entirely isolated to seemingly random electrical grimlins that have no effect on performance.  The only substantial common problems that I'm aware of are the faulty fans and waterpumps in OBDI cars (1992~1995) and the fact that the 1995 M3 has no rev limiter (makes bent valves more the user's fault for reving the engine to 12,000rpm, though).

And for kicks...

1994 Ford F150 XLT, 154,000 miles
Windshield wiper motor failed.  Free replacement from junkyard.
Waterpump failed because previous owner insisted on using tap water ONLY.  $132, Napa
Airbag light started blinking but no one knows why. $0 haha

obviously you want a japanese car, so get one. in 3 years when the interior is complete crap, you have no warranty, you hate the car and wish it would die permanantly, don't say we didn't warn you. BTW, i'm not talking about keeping BMWs a year and selling them. I'm talking about keeping them until the 100k warranty is up. If you go through 100k miles in a year, reliability is the least of your worries...

A friend of mine has a 1999 Eclipse GSX with 164,00 miles.  Interior is nice and solid.  He's been through a couple engines but you can only throw so much boost at them before the crank walks.  New Mitsubishis also come with 10yr warranties.  And I've yet to come across a 3-series that doesn't have a sagging glove box door.

I had a 99 integra that lasted through 120K without anything more than an oil change, brake pad change and a radiator leak. I confess, I beat the hell out of that car, but the thing was bulletproof- (GSR) 8K Redline, and 5 spd manual. It was not, however, theft-proof :(
When it was stolen, however, the interior was still awesome- not a single crack in the dash, or seat leather. I was happy overall, and I kind of wish I still had it. 

A few questions for you, Brian...

1.  Are you going to track the car?

2.  Are you going to be driving on unplowed roads during winter snow/ice?

3.  Are you planning on staying around Austin?

4.  How long do you want to keep it?

5.  How important is sporty handling vs. straight-line speed vs. gas mileage vs. practicality/cost?   

By that last option, for example, would you spring for a sport package 328i, with wider, staggered tires?  The trade-off is better handling vs more expensive tires that you have to replace more often...

Hey Mak,

What's your take on the E90 328i?  I'm a little wary of it because of the run-flat tires (especially the lack of all-season RFTs in the 255/40R-17 size on the sport package), and the plethora of "technology", like the lack of a dipstick....

It drives like a dream though.  Way heavier than my dad's old E30, but still fun as hell.

No dipstick?  Gotta be a way to check the oil, though.

The "look" is growing on me, but I certainly wouldn't consider it a good car yet.  They'll have to be on the road for five years without major recalls and complaints before I would consider owning one.  The only reason I'm tempted to them now is the 6spd available in almost all models.

They use a sensor to warn you via the dashboard that the oil is low.  So if the sensor fails...

There are several things like that, such as the push-button start, the run-flat tires, etc.  Frankly, there are some things I'd rather not fail, even at the expense of day-to-day convenience. 

But oh, that drivetrain and chassis...  I completely understand why people rave about them.

I don't mind push-button starting and runflats are too heavy so I'd change them anyway.  That dipstick thing bugs me, though.

Quote from: sanjay on February 27, 2007, 05:21:27 PM
1.  Are you going to track the car?

No, I'd rather just borrow my mother's Miata to do that.

Quote from: sanjay on February 27, 2007, 05:21:27 PM
2.  Are you going to be driving on unplowed roads during winter snow/ice?

Snow is a rarity, and so is ice. However, I can't ride the bike in that sort of weather when it does come around, so if I need to go anywhere I'll be taking the car. When it iced over this year it thawed enough within a day or two to get around to the necessary places (grocery store, etc).

Quote from: sanjay on February 27, 2007, 05:21:27 PM
3.  Are you planning on staying around Austin?

Yes.

Quote from: sanjay on February 27, 2007, 05:21:27 PM
4.  How long do you want to keep it?

Until it no longer runs.

Quote from: sanjay on February 27, 2007, 05:21:27 PM
5.  How important is sporty handling vs. straight-line speed vs. gas mileage vs. practicality/cost?   

Straight line speed isn't a big deal, but I would like some get up and go; at least more than my Civic has.

Sporty handling is a plus, but not so sporty that it is uncomfortable on long trips. It should be plush enough to handle hundreds of miles of highway in comfort, but not handle like a boat when I push it a little bit. A balance between my mother's Miata and Camry, in other words. I'd like some semblance of decent gas mileage.

My bike averages about 40-45mpg, so a 35mpg vehicle isn't totally necessary, but I don't want to be averaging 12mpg around town. I'll be replacing tires on my bike pretty often (my rear is coming up on its wear bars pretty quickly after 3000 miles), so I'd rather not have to spring for expensive car tires all the time either. If i can get 50-60k out of a set of tires I think I'll be happy.

As to practicality, I want a sedan. A 4-door wagon might not be so bad either.

just get the damn Subaru....

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=380694&highlight=padre
~covers a particularly long trip of mine right after having bought the car.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=343051&highlight=octane
~my octane comparison.

I'll convince you to buy one.  Oh...I will....

Reliability is higher with the Japanese cars, but a lot of that is the lower level of novel technology in those cars.  From the onboard computer sensors like Mak was talking about to direct injection engines, the German cars tend to have more things that can go wrong.  That said, you can expect generally for BMW to be more reliable than Audi.  But if you avoid first-year and sometimes second-year models of any car, you should be fine.  My dad's sixth-year 325i, great.  My mom's third-year A6, pretty good.  My first-year A4, not so much.

If you're not going to track the car, then the BMW's advantage in handling will be limited to curvy roads and onramps.  That said, it really is quite a blast to drive, just because of the drivetrain and chassis.  With the 328xi, you will get AWD.  If you drive one and feel it's worth the extra cost, then by all means, you should get it.  It FEELS better than anything else I've driven, especially at the limit of handling.

But given the blend of AWD, sporty handling and power but not too much, and a comfortable car for long trips, I'd recommend an A4 2.0T quattro.  You'll get 31mpg on the highway, 23 around the city, and you'll have quattro and 200hp/210lbft to play with.  The shifter is not as good as the BMW's, but still good.  Put some decent performance all-seasons and you'll be fine year-round and with decent mileage on the tires.  I have had nothing but good experiences using Audis for road trips.  Also, they depreciate a fair bit, so expect lower prices than on a BMW after a few years.

If you want better reliability and lower cost of ownership at the expense of interior luxury and ride/handling balance, go for a Subaru.  The Legacy GT may be more power than you'd like (0-60 in under 6, but less than 20mpg in the city), so a smaller engine will give you decent acceleration and still get good gas mileage.  You can get either a sedan or wagon. 

If you decide AWD isn't necessary (and I personally don't think it's usually worth the lower gas mileage, increased weight with penalties in acceleration and handling, and increased cost of maintenance), then don't bother.  My dad and mom like it, and drive the A6 quattro in Dallas weather.  But FWD and good all-season tires will do you just fine in sporadic ice and snow, especially with modern traction control.  The A3 2.0T FWD I drove was fast (0-60 in mid 6's), economical (24/32 mpg), had good handling (with sport suspension), roomy (as much passenger room as the A4), and practical (hatch).  If you don't ever travel 4-up with a full trunk, you won't need more than that.

My only problem with audi is that the cars are all front biased.  Even their most sporty TT will never see more than 45% power delivered to the rear wheels.  Makes driving the Quattros no different than a front wheel drive in most cases.  I've already said as much about the subaru...but at least Audi can get their AWD cars to not torque-steer; much more than Subaru can brag about.

I'll also note that traction control is 100% shaZam!.  My f%$king ASC put me in the ditch about five weeks back...last big storm to hit Lubbock left about 3" of ice on I27 all the way from New Deal to Fritch.  Some dueschbag trying to drive too fast lost it and nearly hit me.  When I tried to evade the rear slipped a little bit and the ASC cut off the air to the engine...guess what happens when your rear wheels want to start moving at a different speed than the ground.  Couldn't correct because the ASC would kick in every time I let off the clutch and there was no way I was taking a hand off the wheel to turn the shaZam! off.  Pissed me off even more that the f%$k who nearly hit me just kept on a truckin...

Things are changing with quattro, with the current RS4 and the B8 generation of A4 getting a rear bias.  But you're completely right about the front bias, which is a big reason why the 3-series is so much more fun.  However, neutral handling with a tendency to understeer at the limit is safer than oversteer, so for icy roads, I'd take the Audi.  Also, there's a difference between Torsen quattro like in the Passat 4motion and A4/6/8, and the Haldex in the A3, TT, Volvos, etc.  The Torsen is more "real-time" while the Haldex only starts working when the wheels begin to slip.  Makes the Torsen feel much more planted during hard cornering. 

But if Brian isn't going to be tracking the car, I think quattro will provide fairly fun 4-wheel slides on the occasional on-ramp while still giving good cold-weather traction. 

Is this ASC in your E36?  I drove a car with the newer DTC/DSC stuff in rain and slush, and it felt beautiful.  Here's a good video of a FWD Jag with and without traction control on ice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG3cOEW53ag (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG3cOEW53ag)

link didn't work.

I am glad to hear about a rear biased Audi. the TT I drove...I wouldhave been completely in love had it had a rear bias.

I don't know what other people thing at the moment but from what Alpha has said and described the weather in Austin, is it really worth AWD at all. 2 days out of 365 is when you MIGHT need it. Many cars manage just fine in the snow and ice with modern traction control as Sanjay said. This year we were hit by massive snows for 2-3 days and we managed to get a  FWD ford focus 1.4 out of a sloped long driveway out of the farm in 6-7 inches of snow. Sure that wasn't easy but he drove it out of there with modern traction control and it took him a few attempts but the main roads were all gritted anyway so all he had to do was get it out of the farm. It coped great. Also we had a peugot 407, they are RWD i believe and installed with a specific snowmode. You try driving that up the drive it would skid and not move, put it on snowmode it drove itself out without any pushing or anything. I think for the very few days your going to be in the snow if you are with the planet warmin up and all, that it would be a huge chunk of your annual wage taken by extra fuel costs and maintencance and tyre wear from a FWD. Look for either a FWD with good traction control if your worried, or a RWD with snow mode. Most AWD's are bias front or back anyway....

I also just looked at the Mazdaspeed 3 and mazdaspeed 6- the 6 is AWD, and both look pretty good for the $$

Quote from: CasiUSA on February 28, 2007, 12:06:13 PM
I also just looked at the Mazdaspeed 3 and mazdaspeed 6- the 6 is AWD, and both look pretty good for the $$

Yeah, but I'd have to get the Mazdaspeed version, because I refuse to buy a FWD car. The Mazdaspeed Mazda6 was one of my initial choices, but I have heard things about interior quality. I might go check it out this weekend. I am planning on test driving some of the cars this weekend, and might stop by a Lexus dealer to compare the IS250 in RWD and AWD trims, just to get an idea of the handling difference between the two set ups.

I love test-driving cars!

You won't be able to ditch the fwd even in the MS6.  You'll only see power to the rear wheels when the fronts start slipping and you'll never see a bias.

The Lexus, however, is the opposite  :icon_twisted:...you'll only see real power up front when the rears slip and you'll NEVER see a front bias.

It's probably already been mentioned (too lazy to read all 5 pages) and it's most likely too expensive .. but the Volvo S60R is a beautiful car that's a blast to drive.  If only I had the cash ...

it's still pretty easy to check the oil in e90's, no one ever listens to the salesman when they buy the car though. Its all in the OBC, you use the button on the outside of the turnsignal lever to check the oil. The e90 pushbutton start/remote key is actually very very good, the e62's have horrible key/lock systems though. Most owners of both those cars haven't the slightest clue that there is a normal key in their remote that they can take out, should the remote fail. And the remote doesn't need to have battery power in it to start the car.

Oh I know about the sensor in the OBC.  But still, it's just another sensor to go wrong.  I would much rather have an analog way to check, in case the sensor fails.  If the sensor incorrectly says you're ok, then your engine is screwed.  If the sensor incorrectly says you're losing oil, then the dealership has to take care of something that otherwise was fine.  Also no gauges for temperature or fuel or battery voltage - it's just the speedo, tach, and the computer.

I guess push-button start is ok, but there are a lot of technologies that make me a bit wary.  I wouldn't mind it if an option was available, but you're forced to get run-flats and forced to have no dipstick. 

That link got taken down by BBC.  Here's another copy... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tSy5tHtT1g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tSy5tHtT1g)

Brian, why are you so anti-FWD?

Quote from: ledfingers on February 28, 2007, 02:46:20 PM
it's still pretty easy to check the oil in e90's, no one ever listens to the salesman when they buy the car though. Its all in the OBC, you use the button on the outside of the turnsignal lever to check the oil. The e90 pushbutton start/remote key is actually very very good, the e62's have horrible key/lock systems though. Most owners of both those cars haven't the slightest clue that there is a normal key in their remote that they can take out, should the remote fail. And the remote doesn't need to have battery power in it to start the car.

Considering my OBC is constantly telling my that the outside ambient temperature is either -35c or +55c, that my tail lights are out despite them working perfectly fine, and that I'm out of coolant no matter how much coolant is in the car, I would have a difficult time ever trusting a BMW OBC sensor to tell me the truth.

I have a hard time with my E36 and not having an oil PSI guage.  I can get over the newer ones not having temp and fuel guages.  But, though as ridiculous as it may sound, no dip-stick = I'll never own an E90.

Quote from: makenzie71 on February 28, 2007, 12:18:27 PM
The Lexus, however, is the opposite  :icon_twisted:...you'll only see real power up front when the rears slip and you'll NEVER see a front bias.

Unfortunately, the Lexus doesn't come with a manual transmission option with AWD, so it will mainly be just to see how I like the feel of AWD v. RWD.

Quote from: sanjay on February 28, 2007, 03:43:30 PM
Brian, why are you so anti-FWD?

I just hate how they drive and handle. I much prefer the way RWD cars push themselves. I realize my experience with sporty FWD cars is slightly limited, whereas I have been spoiled with some decent RWD vehicles, I'd still prefer the simplicity of RWD. Changing the clutch on a FWD vehicle is a pain in the freakin' ass.

List of vehicles I've driven:
Toyota Camry
Toyota Corolla
Toyota Tacoma
Toyota 4Runner
Honda Accord
Honda Civic
Honda S2000
Mazda Miata
Ford F-150 (V8)
Ford Focus
Ford Mustang (V6)
Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
Chevrolet Cavalier
Suzuki Reno
Kia Amanti
Volvo 240 Turbo
Volvo 850 Turbo
Volvo 940 wagon

i didn't say i'd own one, i was just commenting on the fact that it is simple to check the oil on them. although the new e90 coupes are freaking gorgeous. But i'd take the mcoupe over an e90 anyday

On this list for test drives this upcoming week:

AWD
Subaru Legacy GT (5MT)
BMW 328xi (6MT)
Mazda Mazdaspeed6 (6MT)
Audi A4 2.0T quattro (6MT)

RWD
BMW 328i (6MT)
Infiniti G35 Sport (6MT)
Lexus IS250 (6MT)

why not a Volvo S60 AWD?

Quote from: baco99 on March 09, 2007, 01:23:53 PM
why not a Volvo S60 AWD?

The AWD version doesn't come with a manual transmission; and with a manual transmission, the only option is FWD.

sit your but in a Evo-8 :)  or a WRX-STI :) there .. fixed ... there not v8's but they will move pretty fast .. if your looking to tune it .. i'd go with the STI :)

Quote from: FearedGS500 on March 09, 2007, 11:32:02 PM
sit your but in a Evo-8 :)  or a WRX-STI :) there .. fixed ... there not v8's but they will move pretty fast .. if your looking to tune it .. i'd go with the STI :)

As noted earlier in the thread, I am not looking for a sports car, nor a shopping cart. I like the understated and subtle look of sport sedans; quiet, unimposing power but with a touch of refinement and luxury. Plus, those two aren't very reliable vehicles.

Just because the Evo's crank walks and the WRX goes through 2nd/3rd gears like my ma and cheap beer doesn't make them unreliable.

Did you find an IS250 6mt?  Call ahead, because I found it extremely difficult to find one in stock to test drive.  Same with the 3-series.  My local dealership had 40 cars and only 1 manual.

IMHO, I don't think you need AWD.  For Texas weather, any of the RWD cars you mention with traction control, a manual transmission, and all-seasons will get you where you need to go.  AWD is a lot more about peace of mind than about actual control advantage.  If you exercise good judgement and skills while driving on ice/snow, then you'll be fine.

Mak, I'm probably placing an order for a 328i tomorrow.  The E90 dipstick sensor fails safe, and the driving dynamics are a league above the A4.  Hopefully it'll last as long as my dad's E30 325i, which he bought new in 1990 and still drives. 

the steering and suspension on e90s are freaking amazing. it's like riding a motorcycle, very easy movements, a minute change of pressure does a lot. but no matter how you drive, you still can't do wrong. i just like little cars more than sedans. ie mcoupe...

Quote from: ledfingers on March 10, 2007, 03:32:16 AM
the steering and suspension on e90s are freaking amazing. it's like riding a motorcycle, very easy movements, a minute change of pressure does a lot. but no matter how you drive, you still can't do wrong. i just like little cars more than sedans. ie mcoupe...

Indeed.  Very forgiving, but very fun.  I would love to get a Z4 coupe or M coupe, but they're out of my price range and I need a practical 4-seater anyway.

did someone already mention the Infiniti G35 6MT?

Quote from: baco99 on March 10, 2007, 08:38:56 AM
did someone already mention the Infiniti G35 6MT?

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on March 09, 2007, 04:28:16 AM
On this list for test drives this upcoming week:

AWD
Subaru Legacy GT (5MT)
BMW 328xi (6MT)
Mazda Mazdaspeed6 (6MT)
Audi A4 2.0T quattro (6MT)

RWD
BMW 328i (6MT)
Infiniti G35 Sport (6MT)
Lexus IS250 (6MT)

Quote from: sanjay on March 10, 2007, 02:17:58 AM
Did you find an IS250 6mt?  Call ahead, because I found it extremely difficult to find one in stock to test drive.  Same with the 3-series.  My local dealership had 40 cars and only 1 manual.

I'm going to the Lexus dealer first, mainly to drive an automatic IS250 AWD and an automatic IS250, just to get a feel for how AWD feels. If they don't have a 6MT in stock I don't mind, really. I could go to the BMW dealer to test the 328, but I don't want to have to deal with getting the feel for a new transmission as well as trying to feel how the car reacts with AWD.

Volvo S60 R is AWD and manual :)

Also - was just reading about the new G8 which will essentially be the Holden Commodore .. RWD and manual .. sounds rather nice .. but you'd have to wait a bit.

Quote from: MrDan on March 12, 2007, 10:38:23 AM
Volvo S60 R is AWD and manual :)

It's also $10,000 over my target budget.

QuoteIt's also $10,000 over my target budget.

try used!

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on March 12, 2007, 10:43:14 AM

Quote from: MrDan on March 12, 2007, 10:38:23 AM
Volvo S60 R is AWD and manual :)

It's also $10,000 over my target budget.

I drove an 05 that was $22k

Quote from: baco99 on March 12, 2007, 10:46:22 AM
try used!

Quote from: MrDan on March 12, 2007, 10:48:39 AM
I drove an 05 that was $22k

Yes, but at the moment I am looking at new cars at the moment, because I do plan to buy used in a few years.

Also, every review I've read says the S60 (even in R trim) is not nearly as fun to drive as its competitors. It's fast, sure, but not as fun to drive as it should be. I'll consider looking into it though...

bah.  don't buy used.  waste of money.  depreciation in the first year will kill your ego.  Go CPO and get the extra service.  Some CPO warranties are better than new these days.

Quote from: baco99 on March 12, 2007, 12:58:53 PM
bah.  don't buy used.  waste of money.  depreciation in the first year will kill your ego.  Go CPO and get the extra service.  Some CPO warranties are better than new these days.

Uhh. How the hell is buying used a waste of money? Care to back that up? Buying NEW is what wastes your money, as the car depreciates significantly the instant it is off the dealer's lot.

If you're worried about investing, don't buy a car...  They're all a COST, not an investment...  (Well, unless it's come rare classic that you don't drive).

Depends on how you do it.  I've bought cars from one coast and sold them on the other for a 10~15% net profit.  You just got to be smart about if you're doing the "investment" thing.

DOH!  SORRY - I meant NEW, not used.  I almost always buy used when I can. 

Sorry for the confusion.

Quote from: baco99 on March 12, 2007, 05:58:53 PM
DOH!  SORRY - I meant NEW, not used.  I almost always buy used when I can. 

Sorry for the confusion.

Even so, I never said I was buying new. Throughout the entire thread (including the post you responded to) I have been saying I intend to buy used.

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on March 12, 2007, 11:02:03 AM
Yes, but at the moment I am looking at new cars at the moment, because I do plan to buy used in a few years.

See?

Quote from: MrDan on March 12, 2007, 10:38:23 AM
Also - was just reading about the new G8 which will essentially be the Holden Commodore .. RWD and manual .. sounds rather nice .. but you'd have to wait a bit.

Manual transmission will only be availible on the G8 GT (V8). I am not looking for a V8 due to gas consumption.

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on March 12, 2007, 06:41:47 PM

Quote from: MrDan on March 12, 2007, 10:38:23 AM
Also - was just reading about the new G8 which will essentially be the Holden Commodore .. RWD and manual .. sounds rather nice .. but you'd have to wait a bit.

Manual transmission will only be availible on the G8 GT (V8). I am not looking for a V8 due to gas consumption.

I'd want the true Holden anyway :) love the looks of that car

QuoteYes, but at the moment I am looking at new cars at the moment, because I do plan to buy used in a few years.

oh, i misinterpreted that to mean, you'd be buying new now and would only look to buy used later on.  not that you are looking at cars available today so you can buy them when they hit the used market. 

i get it now!

We need a translator even though we speak the same language.  ;)

Went out this afternoon and got some subjective data on the quality of a few of the vehicles. I didn't bring auto insurance so I didn't get to test ride them, but I sat in them and climbed in and out and went over them fairly meticulously. Unfortunately it took me a while to print off my data sheets (I made data sheets of each car so I could make easier comparisons).

Of the three dealers I went to, BMW, Lexus, and Audi, only the Audi dealer said that AWD was worth it. Both the Bimmer and Lexus salesman said that AWD simply wasn't worth it in Texas, as we don't exactly get bad weather here very often.

Lexus IS250

• Interior quality is fantastic. High quality plastics and panels fit together very tightly.
• Front seat is very driver focused; only as roomy as it needs to be.
• Rear seat room is snug, but manageable.
• No towing capacity. Period.
• Manual transmission is difficult to find.
• No telescoping steering wheel.
• Dual climate control.
• Heated and vented front leather seats.
• Standard features: Traction and stability control, tire pressure monitoring system, power front seats, moonroof
• Down on power compared to competition (smaller engine though)

BMW 328i

• Roomy front seats, but maintains a good driving position.
• Good seat bolstering, but not too agressive
• Good visibility out the front, slightly obscured to the sides.
• Interior fit and finish is fantastic.
• 50/50 weight balance
• Standard features: stability control, tire pressure monitoring system, moon roof, heated and power mirrors
• Trunk button difficult to reach with door closed.
• Manual transmission hard to find
• Front cup holders look like they will bust easily (due to the way they operate)
• Rear seat is slightly tight, access slightly difficult.
• Felt around the door seals will undoubtedly get dirty easily, and wear out fairly quickly
• 3340 dry weight and 230HP (100 lbs lighter than the IS250, 200 lbs lighter than the G35)
• No towing recommended by BMW

Audi A4 2.0T quattro

• AWD split of 40F/60R
• Max AWD split of 33F/67R to 67F/33R.
• Good visibility and driving position.
• Interior panels fit together nicely, but there are cheap plastics in a few places.
• Good front access.
• Glove box seems flimsy, easily breakable.
• Doors have very distinct open positions. Notchy.
• Rear seat room is VERY tight, and access is very difficult.
• 2200 lbs of towing capacity.

While BMW doesn't recommend towing anything with its 3-series, I was told that it shouldn't be a big deal and it shouldn't void the warranty of a used vehicle either. I REALLY like the BMW too. My only real concern about it is its reliability, and if it proves to be a fairly reliable car, I am definitely going to consider it. It was such a wonderful car to be in and everything was layed out so nicely. However, the Lexus was equally luxurious and well put together, perhaps even more so. The Lexus is just a bit smaller than the Bimmer (9 inches narrower, and inch shorter on the wheelbase), but has a turning circle that is 5 feet smaller.

The Audi doesn't really impress me yet; it doesn't stand out as very luxurious, despite the interior being (for the most part) well put together. We'll see how it stands out in handling.

I took the Mazda Mazdaspeed6 off the list as well. I'm not interested in a FWD car (or a FWD based AWD one for that matter).

Quote#
# Trunk button difficult to reach with door closed.
# Manual transmission hard to find
# Front cup holders look like they will bust easily (due to the way they operate)

#1 use the key. theres a lock, unlock and trunk button on every current BMW key. the other nice thing about the key is that if you're valeting the car, you can remove the actual key, lock the glove box and trunk, then leave the valets the remote only and they won't be able to open anything but the drivers door and start the car.
#2 no harder than any other car. most people are lazy these days, and most "enthusiasts" are willing to settle for an auto with "manual mode" (it shifts just beyond redline on it's own.) or for an SMG (sequential manual gear box. fully electric sequential  shifter, no clutch, has an auto mode). you can't really find any cars with manuals. personally i think you should have to have a car with a manual trans for your first year of having a driver's license. It makes you a more conscious driver.
#3 yes, there are a few problems with those. as long as you're not aggressive with them, they'll be fine, but if your yanking them out, slamming them in, putting heavy stuff on them, they'll end up breaking. treat them well and they'll last, but they aren't bulletproof.

Quote from: ledfingers on March 17, 2007, 01:07:11 AM
#1 use the key. theres a lock, unlock and trunk button on every current BMW key. the other nice thing about the key is that if you're valeting the car, you can remove the actual key, lock the glove box and trunk, then leave the valets the remote only and they won't be able to open anything but the drivers door and start the car.

Yeah, I didn't get a chance to inspect the key as I was just looking at the floor model, but still, it'd be nice to be able to unlock the truck without having to find the little button on the key. I realize it's a minor thing, but it is the little things that make a car stand out. The Japanese cars I have had experience with all have pretty convenient levers, and the IS250 had a push button like the BMW, just in a more accessible place. Like I said, minor issue. I'm sure I'd get used to it after a while though.

Quote from: ledfingers on March 17, 2007, 01:07:11 AM
#2 no harder than any other car. most people are lazy these days, and most "enthusiasts" are willing to settle for an auto with "manual mode" (it shifts just beyond redline on it's own.) or for an SMG (sequential manual gear box. fully electric sequential  shifter, no clutch, has an auto mode). you can't really find any cars with manuals. personally i think you should have to have a car with a manual trans for your first year of having a driver's license. It makes you a more conscious driver.

I dunno, I was told that it wouldn't be difficult at all to find an Audi with a manual. We'll see how it plays out with the Subaru and Infiniti. I really don't want an automatic, though when it comes down to it and I can't find a manual and I'm too impatient to wait an indefinite amount of time, I might settle for the sequential manual (paddle shifters), but I'd still prefer the full manual.

Quote from: ledfingers on March 17, 2007, 01:07:11 AM
#3 yes, there are a few problems with those. as long as you're not aggressive with them, they'll be fine, but if your yanking them out, slamming them in, putting heavy stuff on them, they'll end up breaking. treat them well and they'll last, but they aren't bulletproof.

Yeah, that's what I figured. It just looks that by their design they will wear out quickly even from just opening and closing them. While it is a pretty slick feature and streamlines the interior, it also looks like it would be a pain in the ass to try and fix them. We'll see how reliability holds up over the next few years on them, because that is pretty much the only thing holding me back. We'll see how it drives in a week or so.

I'm going to consolidate my list, and am going to remove the BMW 328xi as well, simply because it is going to be practically impossible to find down here. For the entire southern region, Lexus only produced 4 AWD IS250s. I don't think BMW was much better.

With stability and traction control, a RWD vehicle should be fine for what I need. The 328xi probably isn't going to provide much advantage in traction, but rather will just weigh more (200 lbs more) and get worse gas mileage. The Subaru is staying on the list because it weighs in 25lbs more than the rear wheel drive BMW; the Audi is staying on because the A4 without quattro is a FWD vehicle, and, well, f%$k that.

Combined list:
Subaru Legacy GT
Audi A4 2.0T quattro
BMW 328i
Infiniti G35 Sport
Lexus IS250

from a former valet, the Infinity g35 is badass, a real surprise to drive and would definitely be my pick of all the ones you have so far. Subaru a second, because subaru is quality and also unique as a performance brand. I like that these two are unexpected top performers and not the kind of car that every @$$hole making $50k/yr has (like a bmw for instance). But then again, I like to be a little different.

Just my 2c.

You do know that all Subarus are front wheel drive biased, right?

And I can't believe you can't open the trunk from outside the car...my bimmer has a button on the deck lid.  Unlock car, press button, load groceries.

I do know that towing with the bimmer won't be an issue as long as you keep it under 1500lbs (perfectly ballanced on the trailer's axle, of course).  I pull my TL all the time on my drag-hitch so 250lbs of tongue weight should be no problem.

Quote from: makenzie71 on March 18, 2007, 04:29:31 PM
You do know that all Subarus are front wheel drive biased, right?

The new Legacy GT switched over to a RWD platform (for the most part). It's designed around the AWD system, and default is 40F/60R.

dunno guy...I can't find any clear pics but the ones I'm seeing point toward a tranverse mounted boxer...no way they would mount a transverse engine in a rwd car.

I've got a friend with one  of the 6-speed AWD BMW 318s and that little car is almost as much fun as riding.  It is also impossible to get the wheels of the ground I've 90 degree turned at over 100 mph and all 4 wheels held contact.  Just my humble opinion but those things are just awesome!!! But, its still not as much fun as poppin your front wheel up through a stoplight.

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on March 17, 2007, 01:39:47 AM

With stability and traction control, a RWD vehicle should be fine for what I need. The 328xi probably isn't going to provide much advantage in traction, but rather will just weigh more (200 lbs more) and get worse gas mileage. The Subaru is staying on the list because it weighs in 25lbs more than the rear wheel drive BMW; the Audi is staying on because the A4 without quattro is a FWD vehicle, and, well, f%$k that.

Absolutely right about the AWD issue.  The only reason I even considered it was for ski-season use, but my 10 days a year of driving in Lake Tahoe were not worth the 355 days of mileage/weight/fun/cost.  In Dallas, my dad has no trouble with his RWD 3-series, even though it's an old '90 model without traction control.

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on March 17, 2007, 01:39:47 AM

Combined list:
Subaru Legacy GT
Audi A4 2.0T quattro
BMW 328i
Infiniti G35 Sport
Lexus IS250

I had the same list you do, along with the Audi A3.  The Legacy GT had terrible gas mileage, Lexus felt too plush and not sporty enough, and the Infiniti I just didn't like, for some reason.  And while I have strong loyalty to Audi, I ended up going with the 328i with sport package.  It beat the other cars (to me at least) by a long-shot in terms of fun-to-drive-ness. 

You know what I need?

I need a DeLorean.

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on March 19, 2007, 12:06:30 PM
You know what I need?

I need a DeLorean.

Be sure to get the one with Mr. Fusion- really prevents a lot of headaches.
Also, I know they have a lot of Flux Capacitor issues

</nerdiness>

Yeah, those are only like 10-15 grand, and nothing says class like a stainless steel car 8)

Quote6-speed AWD BMW 318s

#1 BMW never put AWD and a 1.8L motor together. Ever.
#2 BMW never put a 6spd in a 318.

either your friend has wasted a lot of time and money on putting a 6spd and AWD in a 318, which isn't worth much at all, or you just don't pay much attention.



and to alpha, you don't even need to be looking at the key to find the button. BMW does the unlock button on the bottom, lock in the middle, trunk by the key ring. the roundel in the middle is the lock button, so you can feel the roundel and go from there while it's still in your pocket.

I worked at a BMW dealership too long, i need to stop trying to sell these freaking things to people when i'm not making any money from it.

Quote from: ledfingers on March 20, 2007, 09:08:13 AM

Quote6-speed AWD BMW 318s

I worked at a BMW dealership too long, i need to stop trying to sell these freaking things to people when i'm not making any money from it.

I'll take it... where do I sign

bmw 4 bangers went straight downhill when they went to the 1.8L. they're still bulletproof, but they were never impressive in a performance standpoint. not unless you do major mods, ie turbo. But now an awd turboed 2002 (pre-74) with a close ratio 6spd i would cream my pants for. 318? naaah... 320? with some performance enhancements, yeah. (ie injection updated) But the 2002's are the freaking sh.

I'm going to try and test drive these vehicles this weekend, or at least the Subaru and the Infiniti since they are the same dealer.

I've heard some pretty good things about the Legacy GT, so I'm hoping it is as good as it is made out to be. This new model ('05+) is a dramatic leap forward for Subaru in terms of luxury and quality. Every review I've read has mentioned this and has mentioned how surprised they were at how well Subaru pulled it off.

We'll see how things go.

soo alpha is gonna be a bus driver? ( subaru spelled backwards)  ( U r a bus) :icon_razz:

i have driven a supercharged 318ti and it was very quick.  could definitely stay with a 330 and an E30 M3 off the line.  the M3 woudl take it atthe top end.

These "help me pick a car" posts crack me up.  First of all, the original poster always already knows what they want.  They never ever listen to any of the advice given because they set the paramiters of the car search so narrow that it could only include two or three models of cars anyway.  I think the real purpose behind the posts like this is to try to let everyone know how much car you can afford, or think you can afford, and then act like a snarky know it all about the suggestions offered.

I'm obviously prepared to flamed for this, so flame on if you must, but I don't think you can deny any of this with a straight face. 

Edit: and in defense of this post, which may seem like an attack, I submit that the list you've compiled after 8 pages of posts has to be identical to the list you had in mind when you posted the original post, so it is really just wanking off about buying a car when you graduate.   

jake - to a certain extend i think you're right, but it's no different than talking about it amongst a group of friends.  with the interwebz, no one legitimately "shops around" any more.

i'm sorta looking for a more practical car to replace my MX5.  i sorta know what i want, but it's always good to throw ideas around.

I know.   I know.  And you're right.  But I'm right too.

Sorry about that.....I wasn't paying attention its a 320 somethiing ci   inline 6  dunno the last # it popped off last time she wrecked

Quote from: Jake D on March 21, 2007, 12:48:03 PM
These "help me pick a car" posts crack me up.  First of all, the original poster always already knows what they want.  They never ever listen to any of the advice given because they set the paramiters of the car search so narrow that it could only include two or three models of cars anyway.  I think the real purpose behind the posts like this is to try to let everyone know how much car you can afford, or think you can afford, and then act like a snarky know it all about the suggestions offered.

I'm obviously prepared to flamed for this, so flame on if you must, but I don't think you can deny any of this with a straight face. 

Edit: and in defense of this post, which may seem like an attack, I submit that the list you've compiled after 8 pages of posts has to be identical to the list you had in mind when you posted the original post, so it is really just wanking off about buying a car when you graduate.   

For the most part, you're right. The list I compiled 8 pages later was mostly like what I had originally posted, however there were some others that were brought to my attention. I looked into the Volvos when they were brought up, as well as a few others.

I also had only originally intended on getting an AWD sport sedan, but through the posts here I have expanded my search to RWD sport sedans as well, so this has been some help to me. A lot of people gave pretty decent opinions and backed them up about AWD v RWD. Some people also gave some pretty ignorant opinions with no basis of fact (Jah? Jah!).

And as to already knowing what I want? I started this thread pretty dead set on the Legacy GT, but after looking at the BMW and Lexus, that Subaru might have some stiff competition. Mak's suggestion of a BMW M3/4 is also pretty tempting, though it only makes as much power as the new 328i. In fact, I got a lot of good info on the BMWs and they are tempting me as much as the Legacy GT has been these past couple of months.

And Jake, you should know by now that I'm snarky no matter what the topic of conversation is!

Quote from: Jake D on March 21, 2007, 12:48:03 PM
These "help me pick a car" posts crack me up.  First of all, the original poster always already knows what they want.  They never ever listen to any of the advice given because they set the paramiters of the car search so narrow that it could only include two or three models of cars anyway.  I think the real purpose behind the posts like this is to try to let everyone know how much car you can afford, or think you can afford, and then act like a snarky know it all about the suggestions offered.

I'm obviously prepared to flamed for this, so flame on if you must, but I don't think you can deny any of this with a straight face. 

Edit: and in defense of this post, which may seem like an attack, I submit that the list you've compiled after 8 pages of posts has to be identical to the list you had in mind when you posted the original post, so it is really just wanking off about buying a car when you graduate.   

lol jake that reply sounds like something a lawyer would use in court  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Quote from: Jake D on March 21, 2007, 12:48:03 PM
These "help me pick a car" posts crack me up.  First of all, the original poster always already knows what they want.  They never ever listen to any of the advice given because they set the paramiters of the car search so narrow that it could only include two or three models of cars anyway.  I think the real purpose behind the posts like this is to try to let everyone know how much car you can afford, or think you can afford, and then act like a snarky know it all about the suggestions offered.

I'm obviously prepared to flamed for this, so flame on if you must, but I don't think you can deny any of this with a straight face. 

Edit: and in defense of this post, which may seem like an attack, I submit that the list you've compiled after 8 pages of posts has to be identical to the list you had in mind when you posted the original post, so it is really just wanking off about buying a car when you graduate.   

re (my own) help me find a car thread, you are wrong. I can't afford shaZam! and dont care to spread that around. there was a lot of helpful suggestions on here for an affordable sports car that I now have on my list, which is about 3 times longer than it was... i.e. the toyota supra, CVT contour. Weird shaZam!. And even if ppl just want to yak about it, that's enjoyable for some. So stfu.  :icon_mrgreen:

Quotesupercharged 318ti

exactly, it needed major modification to get any real performance. and don't try to tell me a supercharger isn't major modification.

a CVT Contour!?  i think you mean SVT.  :)

FWIW, I had a 1998 SVT Contour and I loved it.  Sold it to help with a dp on a house.  200HP, FWD, Amazing handling.  The only problem with the car...It's a Ford.  So the interior materials are cheap.  The leather cracks after a couple years.  The rear bumper doesn't line up with the body (and there's no way to fix it).  And Ford dealerships are far and beyond the worst in the world when it comes to service. 

However, aside from the bumper sag, I never had a problem with my SVT.  Installed the Dual-mode Damper and the car ran as smooth as any BMW I've ever driven.  It's really easy on tires too.

And there's a great online community if you want more info: http://www.contour.org

Nightrider, I can see right into your soul!  Don't make me point the logic cannon at you next!!!

My $.02: get a used Evo. 

Out!

Quote from: Jake D on March 22, 2007, 09:57:10 AM
Nightrider, I can see right into your soul!  Don't make me point the logic cannon at you next!!!

My $.02: get a used Evo. 

Out!

Do me, I don't care! f%$k it!

Brabus edition Smart Roadster Coupe.

101bhp
Rearwheel drive

All i see is potential and go kart fun.

Quote from: Kasumi on March 25, 2007, 03:02:38 PM
Brabus edition Smart Roadster Coupe.

101bhp
Rearwheel drive

All i see is potential and go kart fun.

Looks like it'd be fun on the track (albeit a bit underpowered), but a couple key things wrong with it:
1) Not availible in the US
2) Coupe

101 bhp is about how much my current car has, and I'd like a little more get up and go when I need it. For stupid fun go-kart riding, I'd rather get a track prepped Miata.