VA tech shootings & live video:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/
http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?f=00&g=ad75665b-75b7-4f0e-af02-88584a484b2f&p=hotvideo_m_edpicks&t=m5&rf=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/&fg=
Saw this, my cousin goes there, and he's OK thank god.
This is insane, what's wrong with people???
Don't we have someone on the board here who goes to VA Tech?
Natedawg and vtilion both go there... :cry:
:o :o :o I hope they check in with us soon. :cry:
VTlion is in grad school there, but isn't Natedawg working for a computer/IT company now?
Total shock! :o
Why the $%&* ?
Quote from: Jake D on April 16, 2007, 11:51:43 AM
VTlion is in grad school there, but isn't Natedawg working for a computer/IT company now?
He works IT at Tech for their Vet school.
And I thought VTlion was a teacher. Hm.
All in all, I hope they are okay.
After some research, it looks like Nate should have been far away from the shootings, and vtlion is actually at Penn State now.
I still hope they are both alright...
Terrible... I feel sick... :icon_confused:
It's sickening, how can someone be so screwed up that they go and kill 31 people, innocent people. :cry:
Jetswing and mark (dont know his actual name, his nick name is mark) both work in that area. And yes, WTF is wrong with people. I think the government is pushing people into quiet desperation ... and makes lunatics out of the marginal cases.
Cool.
Srinath.
I think the media is partially to blame. When psycho's and mass killers become celebrities, and crime scene shows dot the airwaves, this type of thing tends to become the common place in the "marginal cases' " minds.
The government, at least on the state level, does what it can. Recall that after 23 people were killed in a cafeteria in Texas in 1991, that state passed "conceal and carry" laws, under the theory that if the citizens are armed, a shooter can be stopped sooner. Now other states have followed suit. Conceal and carry would not effect a college campus, however, due to the fact that guns are not allowed there. That being said, I'd bet that this shooter had a list of priors as long as my arm and was likely not in lawful possession of those firearms, but the media will likely tell us soon if I am wrong. He just joined the list of Most Notorious Criminals Ever, along with Dahmer, Manson, et al. We are about to find out, no doubt, what makes a guy like this go over the edge. My $.02 says it was society/media/socialization/mental disease rather than a governmental cause.
F**king sick. :mad: just sick.
Would VTlion have been in the engineering building? It is called Norris Hall. That is where many of the shooting occurred. I hope he wasn't there.
Quote from: Jake D on April 16, 2007, 02:58:22 PM
Would VTlion have been in the engineering building? It is called Norris Hall. That is where many of the shooting occurred. I hope he wasn't there.
Alpha claims that he is at Penn State now.
Blame the government, blame the school, blame the media, blame the guns, blame video games, blame TV violence...
The part that any of these played are small if even existent... Blame the people that wouldn't listen when this guy cried for help... Blame his parents? Maybe... Blame his teachers? Maybe... Blame his friends? Maybe...
The person that is truly to blame is him and him alone... Guessing at the causes of this guy's psychosis is asinine. The media will put buckets of so-called experts on TV stating "facts" about this or that and causes and symptoms..... It's all total bullshit.
Who's to blame for any massacre like this? Either simply mental disease or the society the murder lived in... That's my best guess.
Even if it's all to blame, that only points to society... Our society of loneliness, intolerance, and violence.
Quote from: Jake D on April 16, 2007, 02:58:22 PM
Would VTlion have been in the engineering building? It is called Norris Hall. That is where many of the shooting occurred. I hope he wasn't there.
I'm pretty sure VtLion hasn't been to VaTech in some time. I've rode with him here occassionally in State College PA and I don't know anything about him heading back to VA, although it's not like we speak regularly or anything. I fairly certain he did his undergrad there and he's going for his PhD here at PSU. He has a residence here in PA while he was finishing up school so I feel pretty confident he wouldn't be in VA.
You guys have me doubting myself though.....I hope he checks in soon.
[edit] - You check in soon too NateDawg.
yea I agree w/ you Rvert.
there are SO many factors that come into play to THROW someone over the edge like this.
since he put a bullet to his own head, the media will be looking for a scapegoat as usual...
I wonder who it'll be this time...
hey gang. I'm safe and sound at Penn State.
I spent most of the day teaching, and had only a little time to reflect about what happened at my alma mater today. When I first heard the news that more than 20 people had been killed on campus, I became physically ill. Somehow I made it through the day alright, though.
I have always looked back on my days at Virginia Tech fondly. I have so many precious memories of my time there that in many ways they define who I have become as a person. If I were to be stripped of them I honestly don't know who I would be anymore.
Today, 26,000 students had their precious memories forever tainted by senseless bloodshed. That man took the lives of some three dozen people, wounded nearly as many, and left tens of thousands with a massacre as the singular defining moment of their college career... not a walk across a stage, not meeting a future spouse, not a championship game, but a slaughter. I will try very hard to forgive him, whoever he is... but the prognosis is not good.
Today was a rare day for me. I wasn't wearing anything with a VT logo but my old college ring. I had a little hokiebird doll on display on my desk when I heard the news. I strapped him to my backpack and carried him around campus for the entire day. Every time I looked at it I wanted to cry.
Please pray not just for those killed and injured, but for the entire Virginia Tech community of students, faculty, administrators and alumni. I know I will.
God bless.
Quote from: vtlion on April 16, 2007, 05:44:11 PM
hey gang. I'm safe and sound at Penn State.
So glad you're safe.
So incredibly sick over how much pain one person can cause so many people. May the families, friends, and loved ones of those who were lost find some answers and peace. :cry:
:o
I don't know if this is true or not... But, if it is, it's pretty much what I thought... People KNEW he was a nutter...
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/
Quote from: RVertigo on April 17, 2007, 12:48:29 PM
:o
I don't know if this is true or not... But, if it is, it's pretty much what I thought... People KNEW he was a nutter...
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/
same story every time... "we always though he was a wierd one..." etc etc... and it always ends like this!!! :cry: people need to wake up to this garbage and do something about it...
No doubt it was his fault and his choice.
However, parents and family are never scrutinized as much as they should be in cases like this. They must be a huge part of this equation. If you read his play: http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/richard-mcbeef-cover-page/20070417134109990001 (http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/richard-mcbeef-cover-page/20070417134109990001)
it's a violent rant about a 13 year old kid who gets molested by his stepdad.
Hardcore mental, emotional, and physical abuse are the norm with some 'traditional' asian parents/families. I know this from experience and have seen it plenty of times. No doubt the parents are f%$ked up dysfunctional beyond belief. The parents had to have left their imprint on this guy and if you haven't had an abusive parent(s) you won't ever fully understand. Same with any other school shooter, addict, suicide, or fuckup. Good homes make good people.
That said, he should have killed himself, or been stopped and sent into treatment before this ever happened.
Does anyone have Nate's contact information? I've tried to call him several times, but I don't know if I have the wrong/outdated number or what. Anybody?
Quote from: LPC2104 on April 16, 2007, 03:46:08 PM
[edit] - You check in soon too NateDawg.
He'll check in. He's likely got a few more important things on his mind than GSTwins, but he'll come back soon.
-Dan
You know, that right to bear arms ... I am sure it doesn't cover semi automatics with rapid fire mechanisms and high capacity magazines.
Heck, I am all for repealing gun laws ... if everyone has to carry a rifle. Forget even rifle. 1 shot revolver ... between shots you'll have to reload. Works well for self defense, completely prevents massacres. That way, he'd have shot 1 person, or 2 if he was a good shot and had 2 guns, before someone in the class would have shot him.
Also I dont get this gun control BS ... say they ban guns right now ... OK they expect these crimes to stop like tommorow ... WTF ... there is a 100 million out there with plenty of ammo to last a few decades. They ban them all now, that will have no effect for 10 years. then it will gradually start to come down. I'd start out by banning everything other than 1 or 2 shot revolvers. Those you have to have permits to carry, if you want to carry a rifle, no permit needed. That way, everyone knows you're packing, cops will prolly harass you more, but you dont have the capacity or the element of surprise and best of all if you're a responsible citizen you would dissuade others from using theirs in a public space.
Cool.
Srinath.
Only probalem with gun control law's is they effect the law abiding citizens more than the criminals (sp?). I know Hui got his legaly but a majority of the criminals out there own / have black market guns. It would take me 20 min from my work to aquire a 9mm with no serial numbers and no back round check. So basically gun control law's would stop the occasional nut cake , who doesn't now how to buy a handgun illegaly but won't have any effect on the regular criminals. And you would end up with a world where all the criminals have guns and all the law abiding citizens don't.
Look at it this way, people on campus where not allowed to carry handguns, so no one could stop Hui. If the other students were armed Hui would not have been able to kill so many people.
This event has sparked a rather heated debate over gun laws and regulation on the Two Wheeled Texans board I am also a member of.
http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17118
Seems like 10 minutes is a fast buy time for someone's first firearm. In this state there's a waiting period... I bet this event is going to change gun laws forever, leaning towards more control.
I was never one way or the other but I have to agree with more restriction. Australia is the model to follow, they restricted and did a buyback after a massacre there. Wont prevent, but helps take away from the problem. :dunno_white:
From what I remember reading, he did wait for them... He bought them a month ago (or something)...
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I recall.
There isn't a waiting period, theres a background check that takes like 5minutes. Virginia law states however that you can only buy one gun (or handgun i don't recall) a month. He bought the glock first then the .22
Alot of my family and friends are hardcore gun rights NRA members...everyone agrees that first time gun buyers should be subjected to a psych consult..either approving or denying their right to buy guns..it won't help via the illegal end but..maybe it might help something...
There has never been any case were violent crime has stopped or been limited by gun control.
On the VT or any campus in Virginia it is illegal to carry(concealed or other wise) weapons in class rooms or dorms IIRC. But this fact didn't seem to bother Cho. Nor would any other law limiting or banning firearms.
In 1999 the Columbine shooting were during the "assault weapon" ban. At that time you couldn't have a magazine (they are NOT called clips) over 10 rounds. They used bolt action rifles (basically single shot), and killed 13 people.
In the case of VT, if one student, faculty, or any other person would have been armed, this would not have claimed the lives of 32 innocent victims. Virginia has roughly 150,000 CHL(Concealed Handgun License) holders. I don't wish or want everyone armed. Many people simply aren't comfortable having any sort of firearm. But some of us are, and very capable of dealing with any nut case or predator that is also armed. Most CHL holders I know, practice at least once a month with their weapons, and are some of the most level headed people you will meet. But I've been in the bad places, and I've watched human nature. There are always going to be bad people, not just the nut case either. A handgun is a tool that will help equalize the physical differences between people with a predatory mindset and those of us that don't. People with this mentality will always prey on those they perceive as weak, and Cho was no different. He chose a place that he KNEW he could inflict major damage with little or no interference.
Quote from: jimbo1 on April 18, 2007, 04:10:29 PM
In the case of VT, if one student, faculty, or any other person would have been armed, this might not have claimed the lives of 32 innocent victims.
For the most part I agree with not allowing guns in buildings on campus. If you want to put guns on campus put them in the hands of armed security, just because as an American you can buy a gun doesn't mean they should go everywhere with you.
No wait huh? Lame... :cry:
If they make owning a gun criminal, then only criminals will own guns.....
But, why do we have to take training and tests to drive a car and ride a motorcycle, but not to own a gun or have kids? :dunno_white:
RVert I love your outlooks..I agree with you completely...
And how nuts is it that a guy with two stalking cases on his record and known psychological problems can walk out of a gun store with 550 rounds and a Glock?
Some common sense wouldn't hurt the NRA....
I agree with the right to bear arms -- we may someday need to rise up against a fascist government -- but we can't let lunatics have them easily or we invite this very scenario.
RVert: great idea, there should be some sort of mandatory training class!! :thumb:
When I bought my first handgun the dealer ( who shall remain nameless, because I always get great deals there ) didn't even look at my ID. He just handed the form to me to fill out :icon_confused: :icon_confused: As far as Armed Security: They have it, and call it Campus Police. Unfortunately ( at least here ) they are more concerned with traffic citations, seeing as that's what ensures they get paid :mad: I've never seen a single one inside of a building on campus until the other day when they searched dorms :mad: :mad: We had a county cop last year be suspended from duty because he carried when he attended class at the college. How f%&ked up is that :mad: :mad:
Quote from: trumpetguy on April 18, 2007, 07:52:31 PM
And how nuts is it that a guy with two stalking cases on his record and known psychological problems can walk out of a gun store with 550 rounds and a Glock?
Some common sense wouldn't hurt the NRA....
I agree with the right to bear arms -- we may someday need to rise up against a fascist government -- but we can't let lunatics have them easily or we invite this very scenario.
I am curious about this too. Because if he's been TDO'ed which is what appears to be from current media reports, (mental health detention order signed by a magistrate) his purchases were NOT LEGAL, he lied on the forms, it should have been detected and DENIED during the background check and followed up on by the State Police.
Quote from: Onlypastrana199 on April 18, 2007, 02:31:38 PM
There isn't a waiting period, theres a background check that takes like 5minutes. Virginia law states however that you can only buy one gun (or handgun i don't recall) a month. He bought the glock first then the .22
Alot of my family and friends are hardcore gun rights NRA members...everyone agrees that first time gun buyers should be subjected to a psych consult..either approving or denying their right to buy guns..it won't help via the illegal end but..maybe it might help something...
It's only 5 minutes if you pass it with a clean record. If you have something questionable it is delayed from hours to days while they check. One handgun per month; concealed carry licensees are exempt from that restriction.
I'm not really for or against firearm control. I do think people should have to take a mandatory psych exam before they can take a firearm home. I don't see how a msf type class would help with gun owners operatin a pistol / firearm is really simple.
Tighter gun control law's won't effect the criminal element. Since tigher gun control laws have been enforced in Canada and Austraila the crime rate has risen. Tighter gun control laws will only effect the law abiding people and the occasional nutcase. But for the majority of the criminals out there it will only make their victims more helpless.
Explain how would tighter gun control laws stop a criminal from heading to the local crack dealer and buying a gun? 10 to 15 min's from my job and I can have an illegal handgun with no serial numbers on it.
Hate to say it but here is no easy answer to fix this we all wish that this didn't happen and we want to do someting so that it will not happen again in the future. But the sad truth is tighter gun laws won't do it.
What's worse is that if Hui didn't kill himself and surrendered he would be in a nice warm room with padded walls getting 3 meals a day saying he was insane or misunderstood or some other bs. I do belive that the crime should = the punishment. Kill someone then you should be killed no jail time no life in prison. Rob someone = cut your primary hand off. Rape = well you get the idea. Maybe that would make some of criminals out there think before they acted.
Quote from: jimbo1 on April 18, 2007, 04:10:29 PM
There has never been any case were violent crime has stopped or been limited by gun control.
I'm not "pro-gun control" to start with but the above statement strains credibility. Have you ever seen a violent gun crime that was prevented by gun control? Nope. And the ebb and flow of crime in Australia doesn't mean their gun control program wasn't a successful step in the right direction, which is what it is considered to be by many people.
The funny thing is, the NRA types are saying if "students could have had guns on campus they could have stopped him sooner"... well who the f is going to put a 9mm in their backpack and take it to every college class every single day? How many people would actually do that? Would 1 in 10 students in America packing a pistol to classes make things safer? Hell no.
Is proliferation of weapons really going to help anything? Not likely.
No doubt people should be able to own guns for whatever reason, it's America. But... I think a stricter system of gun control is needed.
The issue wasn't about every student carrying a weapon. The issue that came before the Virginia General Assembly was that CHL holders should be allowed to carry.
The difference between buying a handgun and getting a CHL is night and day.
Quote
I'm not "pro-gun control" to start with but the above statement strains credibility. Have you ever seen a violent gun crime that was prevented by gun control? Nope. And the ebb and flow of crime in Australia doesn't mean their gun control program wasn't a successful step in the right direction, which is what it is considered to be by many people.
We already have what should be very effective gun control measures. What should change is, that when people have a history like the shooter this is reported and prosecuted. There are at least two issues with Cho that by current law, would have stopped him from purchasing ANY type of firearm. So if it "strains credibility" I would ask for some sort of proof showing this. And what is "considered a step in the right direction", is a loaded statement. Just like here and the 1994 Assault weapon ban, it did nothing to curb crime, nor was it designed to. But was more of a "feel good" law.
Quote from: RVertigo on April 18, 2007, 06:20:56 PM
No wait huh? Lame... :cry:
If they make owning a gun criminal, then only criminals will own guns.....
But, why do we have to take training and tests to drive a car and ride a motorcycle, but not to own a gun or have kids? :dunno_white:
Man, they cant just make owning a gun a crime.
They should also stop making them, stop making bullets for them and start a buy back program and take away everything that is high speed, high capacity and replace it with 1 shot rifle or piston. The glocks and semi automatics they take away can be given to police or military etc. Then 10 years from now, we will see a reduction, cos 10 years will be what it will take to get the guns out of the system.
Less guns isn't the answer, it will leave the ones who aren't intent on getting a gun defenseless. The only guns should be big and obvious and slow and you need to have training and practice to use. Semi automatic's with high capacity ... nope, its not a murder weapon, its a massacre weapon.
Rifles and pistols are going to be less effective in the hands of a unstable whack job than in the hands of a steady clear headed person. Automatically its advantage normal person.
Then lets see, you're walking down the street and peppered in the crowd you see several people with rifles on their person. You think to your self, I can kill myself 30 people here with your single shot pistol. Yea right.
The constitution was written when the gun they were talking about was a single shot rifle (or was it a muscat) ... that what you need to have as per the constitution. No licence required. Have at it. Heck, I'll even set up news stand like stands that sell bullets.
Cool.
Srinath.
Quote from: RVertigo on April 18, 2007, 06:20:56 PM
But, why do we have to take training and tests to drive a car and ride a motorcycle, but not to own a gun or have kids? :dunno_white:
I don't disagree with you, at all... but here is why... Driving is a privilege, not a right...
Quote from: RVertigo on April 18, 2007, 06:20:56 PM
No wait huh? Lame... :cry:
If they make owning a gun criminal, then only criminals will own guns.....
But, why do we have to take training and tests to drive a car and ride a motorcycle, but not to own a gun or have kids? :dunno_white:
thats what i was hinting at. I am pretty good with a gun, have wanted one for a long time and frankly the more and more shaZam! happens right in my back yard the more and more i think i should have one in my glove box right now. But there are too many hot heads that would get pissed at someone denting their car or screwing their girl. thats what police or fists are for, not guns.......
Srinath,,,, that defeats the whole purpose of the 2nd.
The amendment is that the population is as well armed as the government. I don't remember for sure, but I think it was James Madison owned his own battle ship.
So if we ban all semi- autos, then those that want to commit mass murder will use a bomb, a chemical, and car. You can't legislate proper behavior, you only limit those who follow the laws.
In the 1966 Texas college shootings, the shooter again had a bolt action rifle. And he still killed 16 people before being killed himself by police.
And I have semi auto's,, why? Because many home invasions are done by multiple people. So if I can only have a single shot weapon and more than one person breaks into my house, what am I supposed to do then?
Srinath,
Sorry, but given how well prohibition is working for drugs, and how well it worked for alcohol in the past, I'd rather not see that come about for firearms. Anybody who wants drugs can get them anywhere in the country, only the law abiding folks don't. We are not an island nation like Japan or Australia. Our borders are porous to the point that even if all guns in the country magically vanished overnight, the criminal element could and would instantly begin to re-arm themselves. Plus, guns can be fabricated. I could build a single shot zip gun at home and I bet most of you could too. If I had access to a metal shop and didn't care about the legality I could probably build a submachine gun. Are you going to regulate milling machines and blocks of metal?
That's just the practical argument, not taking into account Jimbo's point that the 2nd amendment is really about the citizenry being able to resist the federal government if necessary.
This guy was obviously a sociopath who put a deal of thought and planning into this. Firearms were the medium. As jimbo said, he could've gone with a bomb or run people over with a Hummer.
Quote from: seshadri_srinath on April 19, 2007, 06:34:40 AM
Man, they cant just make owning a gun a crime.
They should also stop making them, stop making bullets for them and start a buy back program and take away everything that is high speed, high capacity and replace it with 1 shot rifle or piston. The glocks and semi automatics they take away can be given to police or military etc. Then 10 years from now, we will see a reduction, cos 10 years will be what it will take to get the guns out of the system.
Less guns isn't the answer, it will leave the ones who aren't intent on getting a gun defenseless. The only guns should be big and obvious and slow and you need to have training and practice to use. Semi automatic's with high capacity ... nope, its not a murder weapon, its a massacre weapon.
Rifles and pistols are going to be less effective in the hands of a unstable whack job than in the hands of a steady clear headed person. Automatically its advantage normal person.
Then lets see, you're walking down the street and peppered in the crowd you see several people with rifles on their person. You think to your self, I can kill myself 30 people here with your single shot pistol. Yea right.
The constitution was written when the gun they were talking about was a single shot rifle (or was it a muscat) ... that what you need to have as per the constitution. No licence required. Have at it. Heck, I'll even set up news stand like stands that sell bullets.
Cool.
Srinath.
Quoteback yard the more and more i think i should have one in my glove box right now. But there are too many hot heads that would get pissed at someone denting their car or screwing their girl. thats what police or fists are for, not guns.
Make sure you get a CHL, putting a weapon in the glove box is concealment and a crime if caught.
Actually most CHL holders I've talked to, they tend to be much more careful of any situation they get into. I don't have the stats, but have been told that CCW holders nation wide are far less likely to commit ANY crime than the nation averages.
Quote from: jimbo1 on April 19, 2007, 07:10:45 AM
Quoteback yard the more and more i think i should have one in my glove box right now. But there are too many hot heads that would get pissed at someone denting their car or screwing their girl. thats what police or fists are for, not guns.
Make sure you get a CHL, putting a weapon in the glove box is concealment and a crime if caught.
Actually most CHL holders I've talked to, they tend to be much more careful of any situation they get into. I don't have the stats, but have been told that CCW holders nation wide are far less likely to commit ANY crime than the nation averages.
Yeah I know you have to have a CHL to carry in a glove box, else it hads to be out in plain site, like on a seat. Police tend to not like it when you have a pistol on the car without a CHL from what i have seen though.
Why is it that when people speak of the right to bear arms, they never repeat the FIRST TWO clauses of the second amendment?
You may read it here if you wish:
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
It doesn't look to me like the founding fathers intended for citizens individually to have unregulated gun ownership.
But what bothers me more than ANY of the gun-control issues is the culture of violence and macho behavior that we encourage. Go watch Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine." Even if you don't like his political views, he makes a pretty good argument that our problem in the USA is not gun ownership, but attitudes. That's what we should be trying to change.
I've seen Bowling for Columbine twice. I didn't care for it. I agree with you that it's a culture problem not necessarily a gun problem. Look at Switzerland for an example of a country with very high gun ownership but low gun crime.
Also, you may not know it but by federal law:
The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
QuoteBut what bothers me more than ANY of the gun-control issues is the culture of violence and macho behavior that we encourage. Go watch Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine." Even if you don't like his political views, he makes a pretty good argument that our problem in the USA is not gun ownership, but attitudes. That's what we should be trying to change.
Very true, it is attitudes. But macho attitudes are not the ones that kill and victimize people, a predatory attitude does. I have seen this attitude in many other places other than the US. And the best I can figure is, some are just like this. I would LOVE to see none of this predatory mind set, but as long as it exists, I will prepare to deal with it if they threaten me or mine.
I don't know guys but I really think that gun control is a minor issue in this one. I think the main issue is that of a failure of the mental health care system and more specifically the mental health care system within a college setting. Clearly this guy was a nutjob and several students and professors had identified that he had problems. Now while it is extremely difficult to commit someone who is 18 years of age and older against their will, universities can put stipulations on ones enrollment there, such as counseling as a requirement of ones continued enrollment. They also can search ones dorm room without a warrant because that is their property or at least my college could. Don't ask. And from all of information we have received about Cho I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have exhibited these behaviors prior to going to college, which makes me wonder what exactly his family dynamics were and how they could have contributed to his psychosis. All in all Cho slipped thru some pretty big cracks.