The Michigan MC license test that I'm taking Friday requires a right hand U-turn in a 20' width. I can get it into maybe 23', but at 20' I stall, dab or dump it in spite of braking and clutch slipping. Bikes over 500 cc get a wider slot for the test, so a 500 is right on the edge.
This isn't the just for funsies MSF box, it is a test requirement.
Is this even possible in 20' with a GS500? Or I do I just need more practice practice practice? I read a lengthy earlier thread on U-tuns, but it leaves this question unanswered.
If you have a tape measure handy, give it a try!
Jeffrey
The MSF figure-8 U-turn is part of the exam. I lost 6 points on it. I believe that it's also 20 feet wide. I'm sure it's possible, but it takes practice, with particular attention to using the friction zone and counterweight steering.
Have you taken the MSF? If so, then why do you need to take the license test? If not, why not?
it can be done. Practice Practice Practice.
Just to make you feel better, California's circle is 19'5" and I passed on my first try....
Right hand? SC is a left hand.
I have done it on my TLR. It is a matter of balance.
20ft is easy. It requires a lot of practice, though.
If you want to see something impressive I'll get a vid up of my CX. Damn 30 year old bike does it in 14...nearly ON the rear wheel.
I'll be honest, I'd probably have a tough time doing it. The best advice I can offer is to look far over your shoulder and practice.
Sounds like I need to work on the technique, then.
I am scheduled for the MSF course, but not until late June, so I want to pass the test in the meanwhile. The MSF classes are VERY difficult to get into around here. In fact, even taking the state test is tough around here since they use private test agencies and there are only 2 currently in the entire county!
Thanks for the encouragement.
Jeffrey
This can be done easily. You can do it by looking all the way over your shoulder and going very slowly but this just feels akward. Once you get better at it you'll be able to go much quicker and lean the bike over which allows for very sharp low speed u-turns. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.
Go into a parking lot and do figure 8's in between two spots. In a relatively short time you will get very good at it.
I took the MSF course first then went to the DMV because lord knows I dont want to spend any more time there than I have to...and as everyone has said before: look up, head over the shoulder, friction zone. But in all honesty i've done that move I think 3 times in the last year...so...its more of a right of passage, to see if you can in fact handle a bike...if you dont pass that one section do they fail you? I got 2 points off for driving ON the lines, not quite going out...but I dont know how the DMV works...damn DMV...
the GS can EASILY do a u-turn in a 20' box. I can do one with relative ease in a 16' area. Practice, practice, practice. +1 on going to a parking lot...try the turn within two parking spaces. :thumb:
Practice "The box" at a local parking lot that is flat, smooth, and empty. Keep reducing the turning radius until you can confidently lock the steering left, then right. You'll find three things of paramount importance:
1) Keep your speed constant and don't try to crawl along. Motorcycles become more stable as speed increases. I find I do the box best at a slow running speed.
2) Look OVER your shoulder where you want to go. DO NOT look down.
3) Counterweight the bike. Position your butt on the high side of the seat and weigh the outer footpeg.
Beyond that, it's just practice and concentration. Low speed manuvering is a big part of what separates those who are along for the ride from those who control the ride. Last weekend I nearly dropped my GS while doing a U-turn in a driveway because I lost my concentration and looked down at a pothole. :mad:
This is one thing I can do easily in less than 15 feet from years on a dirtbike. You do not have to lock the bars all the way to the tank, the trick is getting the bike leaned over and counter leaning.
8)
Quote from: coolboarder on April 24, 2007, 08:58:33 PM
This is one thing I can do easily in less than 15 feet from years on a dirtbike. You do not have to lock the bars all the way to the tank, the trick is getting the bike leaned over and counter leaning.
8)
Nah, the trick is locking the front brake and doing a circle burnout 180. Zero foot turning radius!
Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on April 24, 2007, 09:21:19 PM
Quote from: coolboarder on April 24, 2007, 08:58:33 PM
This is one thing I can do easily in less than 15 feet from years on a dirtbike. You do not have to lock the bars all the way to the tank, the trick is getting the bike leaned over and counter leaning.
8)
Nah, the trick is locking the front brake and doing a circle burnout 180. Zero foot turning radius!
I zero radius on the front is easy. I wan to see someone pull off a zero radius on the rear.
Quote from: makenzie71 on April 24, 2007, 10:02:38 PM
Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on April 24, 2007, 09:21:19 PM
Quote from: coolboarder on April 24, 2007, 08:58:33 PM
This is one thing I can do easily in less than 15 feet from years on a dirtbike. You do not have to lock the bars all the way to the tank, the trick is getting the bike leaned over and counter leaning.
8)
Nah, the trick is locking the front brake and doing a circle burnout 180. Zero foot turning radius!
I zero radius on the front is easy. I wan to see someone pull off a zero radius on the rear.
:laugh:
&^
+1 on the dragging of the rear brake. In my MSF course here in ole' MN, I went outide the line, but kept both feet on the bike, it was the only time i lost points on the test. By dragging the rear brake, you theoretically can take the clutch out of the equation and control speed with a combination of the throttle and the rear brake. Last suggestion, practice until you don't have to think about it, once it comes naturally, which I promise it will, then you're set.
Good Luck
-me
Hmm....Vertical Stoppie maybe :icon_confused: or better yet burntout wheelie. Either i think would do the trick if performed properly :o just performing the maneuvor seems pretty damn sick though :icon_confused: I bet at some point some jackass/squid has attempted this during a License test :thumb:
Quote from: tussey on April 24, 2007, 07:00:52 PMlooking all the way over your shoulder
Quote from: GeeP on April 24, 2007, 08:11:05 PM2) Look OVER your shoulder where you want to go. DO NOT look down.
3) Counterweight the bike. Position your butt on the high side of the seat and weigh the outer footpeg.
Quote from: coolboarder on April 24, 2007, 08:58:33 PM, the trick is getting the bike leaned over and counter leaning.
These were the two biggest helps for me... Looking WAY over your shoulder... Not with your eyes, with your whole head. When I was practicing, I would chant TURN YOUR HEAD! TURN YOUR HEAD! TURN YOUR HEAD!! It really made a difference in the diameter of my U-Turn...... I can't stress enough, REALLY TURN your head. Look ALL THE WAY into the turn, where you're going to end up.
The next biggest help was scooting my butt off the oposite side of the U and counter-leaning. It allows the bike to turn tighter without locking the bars (which makes it damn hard to balance)... If you don't want to scoot your butt off the side of the seat, there's a different trick... Just like on a dirtbike, you can stand up on the pegs and lean the bike between your legs while keeping your body straight up. It actually takes more practice and may be harder than just scooting off.
Lastly........... Keep the revs up and ride the clutch to control your speed. The GS has a wet clutch and you can ride the CRAP out of it... You can REALLY control your speed when you're using the clutch. Trying to use the throttle is simply too jerky at slow speeds... Feather the clutch! :icon_mrgreen:
And just like everyone else said... Practice. I did mine at the MSF. I got three practice runs and screwed up every one... Then when it was time for the test I friggen NAILED it repeating "TURN YOUR HEAD! TURN YOUR HEAD!!!" :thumb:
Thanks to all that replied - it's what makes tis a great group. Now if it will just stop raining ... I'll go out and drag a a rear brake, lean body out, lean bike in, and spin my head back like I need an exorcism. I can hold a stationary post (feet up, bike stopped) on a road racing bicycle for as long as I want to, so I should be able to handle this.
Jeffrey
... And ride the clutch! :thumb:
My MSF course required that we do it in 15 feet. In the box..they called it the demoralizer. I couldnt do it then, but sometimes I go back there, to the lot, just to bone up on mah mad skillz and I can do it every time, both directions, continuosly now. I just keep doing 8's till I get dizzy. Can do it with a foot to spare all the way around.
For me the 2 most helpful advice was to look way over the shoulder, and take your butt off the seat (way off) to weight the outside. Goodluck.
best I could giving the 35mph cross winds...and the fact I was irritated (had the reshoot four times because my hat kept blowing away and the hat was crucial for the clip).
http://www.photoartclub.net/cx500/cx1.mpg
She can turn a whole hell of a lot sharper...I'll get a better clip after the weather calms down. So for the crappy film quality.
Oh and the sugar/creamer cans are 18ft apart. After actually analyzing what I do I think the key to pulling off really tight u-turns is not being afraid to throw the bars around and lean the bike. She's not going to fall over unless you get really carried away and there's a wide margin for error.
Thanks for the video. The most impressive thing there for me is the relatively high speed in the turn - I am impressed.
After another few goes at it and with your collective wisdom in use I can now get 20' about 90% of the time ,and it often is 18 or a bit less. The head rotation is a KEY part of it, surprisingly every bit as important as the outside weight shift and lean ( at least for me). A bit mnore practice and it should be 100% OK.
Thanks to all for the help.
Jeffrey
When I was first up, I thought that would be tough, but now that ive practice and gotten more comfortable with the lean, it gets alot easier. By the way, if you take the Written, you can ride for six months before you have to have take the test, so You might want to go that route, as the MSF counts as your road test. save ya a bit of money
Do you have to sustain a certain speed while doing this ? If not then I can do ~10' U turns with little effort.... givin I'm only moving about 5mph.
a u-turn is a u-turn.
Yes, the 2-day MSF course when passed counts as the road test. My son and I are both scheduled for it in late June; but I have some time off (thanks GWB ...) for a few weeks and wish to advance the cause while I have the time to learn and enjoy. I'll do the MSF course even if I take and pass the test earlier.
The challenge in the US system, is that with an instructional permit (written test) at least in Michigan you can only ride on public roads if "under the constant visual supervision of a licensed rider". I don't have a friend in the area who can do that except very irregularly, so if all I want to do is ride 3 blocks down to an empty school parking lot to practice turns I have to (gasp!) break the law to get there. If anyone has any first hand experience of how Michigan cops treat MC riders without a valid MC endorsement I'd love to have some guidance. In any case, it is hard to understand how a friend with an MC tag on another bike, following in a car, or standing on the corner provides too much added safety to the process. It's not like you can throw the handbrake or grab the wheel of for that matter even yell 'slow down you idiot". It can only be words after the fact. I'm a cautious rational guy who has learned to act as though invisible to cars already doing 6000 miles/year on a bicycle; I can see how it might help to restrain a hotter blooded character. I also want to get my endorsement so I can help to season my son before the MSF classes so h eisin't starting from zero when he gets there and focus on handling and safety rather than just not stalling the bike (his current specialty).
*4
Yeah, with the permit here it's just no freeway,night or 2up riding :thumb: Of course the fine for violation is only 60 bucks :icon_rolleyes:
Quote from: TheUnHun on April 26, 2007, 09:41:53 AMin Michigan you can only ride on public roads if "under the constant visual supervision of a licensed rider".
That friggen sucks! But, I'm guessing it keeps *some* people in check.....
I heard a statistic that something like 40% of riders don't even have an endorcement. :cookoo: Or maybe it was 40% have one...
I'd say Michigan sucks, but I simply had too much fun at the sand dunes while I was there... YAY Michigan! :thumb:
[
That is just plain retarded :icon_confused:
WTF? They're not trying to be safe, they're just being assholes. :flipoff: them!
85 % fail ????? :o
oh f@%k...
Here across the pond everything is much easier...
While on learner's permit you can ride any bike you want provided: it belongs to the category you're getting the license for; you don't exit your home province limits; NO passengers with you; NO motorways; besides, you *should* only ride in places/streets where traffic is very low or none, but no one cares indeed... As for the rest, night riding, solo riding with no one looking after you, it's all ok, just be reasonable and prudent.
Riding test is quite simple: an *emergency* stop, then passing between two rows of cones at very very low speed, then a slalom, then an 8-figure, finally a drive around town, you on the bike and the examinators on a car behind you, giving you directions about turns etc. and of course, keeping an eye about you being watchful when approaching pedestrian crossings, traffic lights, stops...
If everything goes ok, you promptly get your new license in your hand just after the test...
(no u-turns required) ;)
And AFAIK, very few people here ride bikes without a MC driving license: in case of an accident or similar, insurance companies and/or judges will be very nasty with you... :icon_twisted:
Quote from: Wrecent_Wryder on April 24, 2007, 10:52:59 PM
Where are the so-called rider advocacy groups while all this is going on?
They're fighting for the right to ride without helmets since by killing themselves they're significantly contributing to riding in the US.
%
&&
If the applicant's motorcycle has an
automatic transmission, two (2) penalty points will
be assessed.
WHISKEY, TANGO, FOXTROT?
Quote from: Wrecent_Wryder on April 26, 2007, 12:25:02 PMSuffice it to say that I have never ridden without a helmet
I rode in my garage without my helmet... I didn't like it.
[
Quote from: Wrecent_Wryder on April 26, 2007, 12:45:34 PM
Quote from: NiceGuysFinishLast on April 26, 2007, 12:36:07 PM
If the applicant's motorcycle has an
automatic transmission, two (2) penalty points will
be assessed.
WHISKEY, TANGO, FOXTROT?
And this gem:
"If the course is wet, this exercise will not be
conducted and the applicant will be assessed two
(2) penalty points."
Because that's clearly your fault...
:o :o :o
OMFG, I live in the (not so) proud homeland of bureaucracy, but...let me say, this all sucks!
here when performing the test with an auto tranny motorcycle (=ok, a scooter) the result is simply your driving license limited to such motorcycles (which makes sense), but not penalty points or such... Do I have to be punished just because I don't like shifting gears?? :laugh:
And as regards the wet course...well, no comment. :icon_confused:
Yes, balance test's quite the same, you gotta pass at the slowest possible speed in 1st gear (idle rpm or so), so they see if you can keep it all balanced, I wasn't required other than that.
here too, during the skill test (not in the city ride) you're allowed to put down your foot once (twice in case of Direct Access License), after which you automatically fail, and you fail if you drop the bike, or stall it, but you must really show yourself unable to ride the bike in order to be rejected. And never I heard of intimidating examinators or such; getting MC license is quite easy here after all.
Lamps,
simon
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
My test got rained out. When I mentioned my need to time the test when my licensed friend can come along the testing guy said something like "I don't care how you get the bike here and won't notice how you arrive at the test, but be careful" and implied that if challenged he never ever said that. Fair enough.
MD sounds like the worst case scenario, designed to prevent riding at all rather than to foster safe and capable operation. It is an odd stance. I am surprised the industry doesn't fund and improve access to MSF courses for their own self-interest. It seems as though more safe and legal riders would equal more MC sales.
Jeffrey
When I took it in New York State (near Buffalo) the instructor tried his hardest to fail me. I had no problems doing the figure 8s, U-Turns, and circles within a very narrow road. (I don't know exactly how wide it was because I didn't measure it, but I was expecting it to be wider). But this jerk just couldn't see or something. I got points taken off for:
"Leaving Curb: Uses mirror only/fails to check blind spot"
OK, this guy must have just been blind. I made DAMN SURE to check over my shoulder not once, not twice, but at very least 3 times EVERY TIME I left the curb. I knew he would watch for this, and I had my driver's license for years before getting into motorcycles.
"Turning and Intersections: Poor judgement approaching or stopping at intersections"
He said I rolled over the crosswalk. I did not roll over the crosswalk. He counted off for this on 3 separate occasions. I am not stupid, I know not to drive over the crosswalk on a drivers test! Did you ever consider a career as a referee?
"Parking, Backing, or U-Turn: Fails to adequately observe"
OK, he told me this was because of a "double stop" I stopped at the stop line, which was very far back, then after a complete stop I couldn't see down the street to check for traffic. So I rolled up and stopped again to check traffic, JUST LIKE THE NYS DRIVER'S MANUAL SAYS. He tells me this could have gotten me rear ended and was "extremely dangerous". WTF? As dangerous as not being able to see oncoming traffic and just driving out?
I am convinced that they deliberately try to fail you. I just don't know what other conclusion to draw, this guy took off points for things that were just untrue. He failed to adequately observe the road test. Whether he needs a new prescription for glasses or just has too much ADD to pay attention to what I'm doing doesn't really make a difference. He is unfairly judging my skills.
Anyway, I thought for sure I would fail with that many points taken off but I did in fact pass. Which is a good thing because I probably would have had a confrontation with him about these points, but since I passed it really didn't matter, so I just drove off. There aren't really any penalties to getting points, as long as you pass. Seriously though, do these instructors have something to prove? I noticed he was also administrating car tests and he failed all 4 people ahead of me...
Here in Ohio the learner's permit is a 40 question test which I think anyone could pass if they read the 15 page motorcycle pamplet given out by the DMV. I was actually rather pissed because my permit says my test score was 75% (the minimum required to pass) but that's because once you get 30 questions right, the test ends. In reality I had 30 out of 33 = 91% but my permit makes me look like I barely passed :)
Once you have the learner's permit you can operate your bike during daylight hours without a passenger. The road restriction I can't figure out, as it says you cannot ride 'on congested roads or interstate highways'. But it seems that 'congested road' leaves a lot to the imagination of the ticketing officer...
The permit is good for 1 year, to get your full endorsement you have to take a skills test or pass the MSF course. Sounds like other states require you to take the skills test, or is it common for passing the MSF to be all that's required? I'm glad I don't have to take the test, took me three tries to get my driver's license here after they deliberately failed me. They actually claimed both times that I ran a stop sign. Seriously, claimed I ran a stop sign during a driver's exam. You'd have to be incredibly stupid to do that...
Wow compared to all of you guys PA has it great. The MSF is offered every week from March til Sept. 24 people a week. The test is a figure 8/U-turn (two u-turns in a row, one to the left and then back to the right) in a 20'x30' box. Then a quick swerve to the right between cones. A quick emergency stop using both brakes. And finally a sweeping right turn in 2nd gear. Thats it and your done. You can get 20 points before you fail (21 and you fail). Three points for a foot down an additional two for any more after that, going over a line is three points and an additional two for any other time after that. Skidding is a five point penalty. Not bad at all...I got my permit on a saturday and had my license the following sunday. The course is free and they are fun.
In your case with the crappy nazi officials and test, I would write a letter to my senator and or representative to see if you can get that changed or at least fight to make a difference. That is what they are there for.
&&
Quote from: TheUnHun on April 27, 2007, 10:48:43 AM
MD sounds like the worst case scenario, designed to prevent riding at all rather than to foster safe and capable operation. It is an odd stance.
+1.
hey,this all seems more Orwell's 1984 than getting a driving license or MSF course or whatever... :o
[&&
Thanks for reminding me to slow down. I played in a parking lot today to refine skills. Nothing like super slow speeds to check an ego. It'll do figure 8's all day and 18' circles. It just prefers to make me nervous doing so.
Then I took the wife for a 3 hour tour.
Man that little bike is fun.
So, I rode 15 miles to the test site and easily passed U-turns and cone weaves with no lost points. I lost a few points for just ticking the edge of the target line in the obstacle avoidance, but I was happy overall.
Thanks to all those many who contributed useful advice. Pulling a U in 18' seems straightforward now. Then I hauled tail home just in front of an arriving monsoon ...
Jeffrey
Yikes. I understand there are quite a few accidents caused directly by folks trying to 'hurry up' and get out of the rain.
Also, I understand bridges (overpasses) are terrible places to stop and seek shelter in heavy storms. People get killed there by idiots in cages.
Congrats on the passing part. Enjoy the supreme coolness of not worrying about the LEO behind you !
In my other hobby I ride a road racing bicycle about 150 miles per week. When it rains, then we get wet. Even on bicycles you have to be careful in the wet, just as on a MC. It's slicker than snot on a door knob, the brakes don't work, you can't see diddly, and the drivers all want to kill you. It all seems familiar some how. It's always safety first. Every bicycle ride I lead begins with a 1 minute safety talk, and we boot repeat offenders off the ride if need be as a last resort.