hey back in the day, someone said they'd give good money for a fedexable kit to EFI a GS. How much is good money? What if it was done with COTS parts (commercial off the shelf)? Like GSXR throttle bodies and fuel pump with cheap controller. 250? 500? 1000? Name your price.
I figure it would be around 500 not including labor.
ice did his fi and turbo system for about that in oz$ if you can get the bits second hand it doesnt cost much, its the setting up thats the Buddha Loves You
$500 would build you a pretty badass megasquiurt.
How much would I spend? Not a penny. My carbs work fine, easier to fix too. :icon_mrgreen:
Easier to fix but you have to fix them alllllll the time.
Carbs are simple. They have less to break. You have to remove them and disassemble them to make any variety of modification, and you have to modify them anytime you make a drastic change to the engine or environment.
EFI is complex. It has a lot of things that break. You only make adjustments for engine modifications and you adjust it by plugging the system into your laptop and clicking the left mouse button a couple times.
yeah, why f%$k with things???? the carbs work fine and are easier to work on :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff:
hahaha when was the last time you had to rejet your car, Terry?
I've only owned one car......it was a volvo with a turbo......I blew the engine up :icon_rolleyes: good point, kinda, I just don't see the point of it on the GS....it's not like working on the little Mik's is hard :flipoff:
no doing carb work isn't hard...it's actually a lot easier to disassemble a carb than an EFI setup. But compare how often either need to be disassembled.
I think EFI would make the GS perfect...but only an adaptive setup. Something that isn't single-map based but can adjust to different environments and modifications with an O2 setup would be perfect.
Quote from: makenzie71 on June 20, 2007, 07:27:10 PM
Easier to fix but you have to fix them alllllll the time.
Nah. The only carb I ever had to tear down twice was a Bendix PR-58. They work better when you put all the parts back. ;)
Actually, I prefer propane carbs. The Impco carb and vaporiser on my '72 Clark 8,000lb forklift is just about the only thing I haven't had to tear into. Been on there since '72, not a single problem.
What makes a carburetor "difficult" that that working on one requires patience, attention to detail, and careful workmanship, much like an aircraft instrument or a fine watch. Properly serviced, carburetors are at least as reliable as the best EFI system and more robust to boot. It wasn't until a few years ago that an electronic fuel injection system was type-certified approved by the FAA for use on aircraft.
Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying EFI can outperform carburetors...or vice versa. A properly tuned EFI system will work as well as a carburetor, and a properly tuned carburetor will perform every bit as well as an EFI system.
The difference is in the tinkering. For example, anytime I took my FZ down to Houston to cruise with my brother, I had to up my jets just to run ok there. Too big an environmental change. Jetted properly to either site and the bike would run at the opposite. My TL, on the other hand, had an air density sensor so she ran flawlessly all over the place. I just had to tune for my modifications...never the environment like with a carb.
A carb adds hands on difficulty, but offers superior reliability due to it's simple nature. An EFI system adds difficulty and takes away reliability through it's complexity, but it's hands-on operation requires only trigger-finger skill.
*ahem* from my basic training 1Sgt: 'You don't fire a f%$king weapon unless you can strip it, clean it and fix it'
[quote author=makenzie71 link=topic=36104.msg403035#msg403035
The difference is in the tinkering. For example, anytime I took my FZ down to Houston to cruise with my brother, I had to up my jets just to run ok there. Too big an environmental change. Jetted properly to either site and the bike would run at the opposite. My TL, on the other hand, had an air density sensor so she ran flawlessly all over the place. I just had to tune for my modifications...never the environment like with a carb.
A carb adds hands on difficulty, but offers superior reliability due to it's simple nature. An EFI system adds difficulty and takes away reliability through it's complexity, but it's hands-on operation requires only trigger-finger skill.
[/quote]
I can agree with that.
So, Terry, how often you field strip and clean that turbobrick?
I have seen mega squirts done using a 2.2 caviler throttle body,and injectors.The freaking fuel pump was massive.The size of a soda can and externally mounted.You also have to deal with water temp sensor,which can be put in an oil galley,and oxygen sensor.Throttle body contains the other sensors.Don't forget you'll have to have a lap top to set fuel parameters.
$6500...for a new bike.
Actually mak.....when I first bought it it had a bad head gasket and the turbo was hanging half off. I rebuilt it, with a little help from a neighbor :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: and i'm not the one who brought up the trigger finger issue :flipoff: :flipoff:
yeah but then compare yourself to the next brick owner. i'm pretty intimate with both carb and efi systems but the average joe isn't. if operating something required intimate knowledge of how it works and how to maintain it was a requirement, we'd either have no operators or no mechanics.
My point: If you have the aptitude to convert a GS to EFI, you can maintain a carb easily so why drop the funds :cookoo: :cookoo: :cookoo: 500....you can buy a fuckin GS for that :laugh: :laugh:
I would do it for someone else...like Kalee's bike I wouldn't mind be EFI...or for something that's going to see heavy modification. For an otherwise stock GS...no, no point.
:dunno_white: :dunno_white: :dunno_white: in that case I think it just comes down to preference.... I'll stick to carbs.....
Quote from: makenzie71 on June 20, 2007, 07:57:40 PM
A carb adds hands on difficulty, but offers superior reliability due to it's simple nature. An EFI system adds difficulty and takes away reliability through it's complexity, but it's hands-on operation requires only trigger-finger skill.
couldn't agree more
I am familiar with aftermarket systems.Done a couple with friends.If it didn't come with FI,I'd leave it the hell alone or do a jet kit.One car we did took around 3 weeks working in the afternoon.Then the owner had to take it to a dyno to really dial it in.It was a track car tho.
Holy thread hijack EFIman !
I'd pay $2-300 for a system I could setup ONCE and not have to tinker with. If it had a easy-cheese USB dongle for manipulation that would likely add a pretty good bit of interest.
I notice 'megasquirt' alot. Is that a product maker, or just a term for hacking setup ?
How's about posting what it's worth to you while discussing turbo vol's and all ?
The thread starter may be onto something if there is interest. :thumb:
Megasquirt is a homebrew EFI setup that was originally brought about by two or three guys who got tired of always having to adjust the carbs on their Triumphs (cars) during cross country trips.
http://www.megasquirt.info/
Spending the money on an EFI for the GS is no difference than spending money to make a bigger and faster GS motor.
Quote from: dgyver on June 21, 2007, 04:03:44 AM
Spending the money on an EFI for the GS is no difference than spending money to make a bigger and faster GS motor.
I second that,and move to stick with carbs,and buy bigger pistons and cams.
What ben said......at 500 I'd rather get some bigger pistons, etc...
Now at 250...... i probably would just for the novelty of having a GS with EFI :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes:
I've worked with carbs for some decades now, they're simple, I've had plenty of time to be comfortable with the technology...
... but I respectfully disagree about the complexity of EFI leading to unreliability.
Well over half of the requests for help on this forum are carburetor-related, one way or another. Go to a forum devoted to a decent bike equipped with EFI, and it's closer to 20 percent, and most of that is about performance mods or bypassing emissions. It may seem more complex, but it works.
The complexity of EFI arises when there is a problem with the actual system...not it's general use. The unreliability of EFI arises from it's complexity...more components mean there's more that can fail, and the more that can fail means there's more that WILL fail over time. That's not to say EFI is unreliable...but, all else being equal, a carb is more reliable.
Quote from: makenzie71 on June 21, 2007, 01:34:46 PM
The complexity of EFI arises when there is a problem with the actual system...not it's general use. The unreliability of EFI arises from it's complexity...more components mean there's more that can fail, and the more that can fail means there's more that WILL fail over time. That's not to say EFI is unreliable...but, all else being equal, a carb is more reliable.
Wow. Carbs are consistantly less reliable. They have more seals, gaskets, etc that go bad over time. I can't remember the last time I had an idle issue, rich/lean, float, jet, or any other issue from a EFI system.
Yes, O2 sensors die eventually. The accord has 205,000+ miles now, and still gets 35 MPG with normal driving. Would a 10 year old carburated car fair the same ? I think not.
Comparing an EFI kit on a motorcycle to adding hot-rod stuff is an odd take also. It's about consistancy and reliability. Nothing to do with hot-rodding a bike at all.
I'd prefer fuel injection, no adjusting, near zero maintenance, and the occasional (like every 3-4 years) of replacing a O2 sensor to wondering why another damned flat spot has shown up at 4-5K rpm's.
That's just my take on things.
Good point about how many folks start their life on GStwins with a carburator question. ;)
Nice thread.
I think that one day I'm just going to be so tired of fiddling with GS carbs that I'll buy an SV650 and be done with it.
If only Suzuki would import the GSR 600 into North America and put the GS out to pasture--with continued parts support of course (I'm not done yet). Or better yet, revamp the 500 much in the same way as the water-cooled Bandit 650.
wow, i pulled a trigger huh? carbs vs. efi all over again. my 0.02: carbs are easier to work on in terms of understanding which hole got plugged up. In general, a thorough cleaning will solve driveability problems, in addition to making sure things are nice and tight (air leaks, etc). but, frequency (and i think someone else mentioned it) of maintenance on carbs is much higher than on EFI.
doing a speed density system would be least complex. MAP sensor can be used to determine atmospheric conditions. and throttle position sensor can be used to solve tip in/out problems. a sync signal from the cam is nice, but not necessary - if the EFI also manages the ignition system, one or two misfires will help synchronize. And coolant/oil temp isn't all that necessary either. just closed loop on the O2 sensor. you can base a timer using intake air temperature estimating warm-up time, and keeping a timer for how long the engine has been off, etc.
So required harware would be:
properly calibrated and Controller
injectors(properly sized and aimed at the intake valve)
fuel pump(properly sized)
manifold (tuned to boost low end torque) with single throttle body and TPS and injector housing
fuel rail
*02 sensor and welded bung in y-pipe. Wide band would be nicer, but the old hunting works too.
you could skip the sensor and welded bung. just run open loop... if you're going for really cheap :)
but then you might as well keep the carbs..
everything else is optional - to make it fancier.
so what if all of the above was about 500 bucks. would you go for it? yeah the GS isn't worth that much.... but wouldn't it be nice?
Manifold? single throttle body? nah. use the carburetors. take the bowls off and plug all the ports. Then you have a setup that's already a guaranteed fit and you could use a fuel rail from an established model...like off a TL1000S. Easiest thing to do with the injectors is to tap the top of the TB's and have them fire straight down. Not the most efficient but it would work just fine.
yeah, but isnt the point to be better than the carbs? if you point the injectors at the valves, and squirt at the right time, you can get the fuel to better vaporize. and, if you give the intake tubes some length, you can 'charge' the non-firing cylinder with the pressure wave from the valve closing on the other one... intake tuning. two good things you can do better than carbs --> better emissions and performance.
you could also get rid of everything, bolt on a high pressure diesel pump and see how well the gs pistons deal with hydrolock, but whats the point? if youre going to fuel inject, you might as well do it right, even if you're not shoving the engine full of sensors (which some people think to be troublesome).
oh no now wait a minute...a manifold will NEVER be able to outperform independent throttle bodies. Never. Intake tuning was brought about to combat cylinder starvation due to very limited manifold supply...because manufacturers are cheap and ITB's are more expensive and more complex and require more tuning and hands on activity.
There's a reason why the most populous high performance engines on the planet have a throttle on every cylinder...carb'ed or EFI.
and firing fuel right before the intake valve...won't really effect much of anything we'll notice no matter which direction the fuel's sprayed. Your nice vapor cloud's gonna get f%&ked when hits those valves anyway. A really nice vaporization is only really important if the fuel has more than a few inches to travel or if we're really cranking out the power and are needing a LOT of fuel to flow smoothly.
that is all well and good, but now consider tuning the engine.
Speed density requires a good signal from a map sensor. with individual throttle bodies, there is absolutely no volume for the pressure wave to be absorbed into, so the signal bounces all over the place. you cant easily tune into a sinusoidal map sensor. You need a steady output, otherwise performance will suffer. if you filter the signal, then you get an associated delay, and no one likes tip-in problems.
Sure individual throttle bodies might give you an advantage for the top end of the power band, but if you're looking for low-end torque, the manifold is the way to go. for reliability and driveability, the manifold is better as well. yeah, the gsxr and r6 bikes use individual throttle bodies, but they still use variable length velocity stacks to tune.
a manifold will certainly not rob the cylinders of air if the runners are at least the size of the ports.
the fuel is liquid at 40psi. it exits the injector as a liquid mist, but doesn't vaporize until it hits the hot intake valve and has a split second to gain some heat. it continues to vaporize when the charge enters the cylinder, and if the valve is pointed well, the charge will swirl into the cylinder absorbing heat off the walls on the down stroke. it may start to condense during compression, but by then, it's a well-distributed charge, which is what you want.
I'm not sure I understand all of your arguments.
theres some discussion on hybridz about this
http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=87121 (http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=87121)
of course their engines are bigger.... but i think the same principles may apply.
I would have paid 250 to 300 for a bolt on FI for the old GS. As far as long term reliability issues let's see goldwings with over 150,000 miles, I have a friend with an 02 gixxer 750 it has 48,000 miles another friend with a Bandit 1200 with 67,000 miles. although the gixxer did develop a weak fuel pump last month but that has been the only issue EFI related that I have run into locally. Some people on some national forums have had problems but they are usually realted to letting the system set without running and having regulator diaphragms dry out and crack or the odd sensor failure which takes about 5 minutes to TS and 1/2 an hour to repalce. The only bikes I have now with carbs are our dirt bikes. And they are extremely maintenance friendly not like a street bike.
pherako...the speed density thing is solved really, really easily with an airbox...like EFI motorcycles and cars like the European M3's have. An over-sized airbox keeps the pressures localized enough to get a decent signal.
well, you need manifold pressure downstream of throttle body for speed density to work. I don't see how an airbox would smooth things out, except possibly during high throttle angle. on low throttle angle the valve closing pressure has the throttle plate to bounce against and pressure will still oscillate. so how exactly is an air box supposed to solve the problem?
all cars have an airbox... how are they different from EFI bikes and M3s? I'm gonna go look up some pictures.
makenzie71, I respect your opinion, but it's not adding up in my head, based on my limited knowledge. please explain more.
-Lev
well damn. no one actually posted a price point, so i guess folks would rather niggle EFI vs carbs than just enjoy riding. :2guns:
thanks for trying Mr. Threadstarter, you tried ! :thumb:
I posted a price: I said at 250 for a kit, I would. Primarily for the novelty of having a EFI gs500. 250 is my top price for something that I don't see an appreciable difference in performance from, but like the aesthetics/ other appeal. :dunno_white: :dunno_white:
I work for a Megasquirt seller. The idea of putting EFI on my GS500 has crossed my mind a couple times - probably using it as a demonstrator for the upcoming Microsquirt. The thing is that most of the effort and money I'd like to put into my bike are for improving its comfort a little. On a stock engine, EFI might help get it some more mileage, and removing the choke would be nice to have. But I'm not looking to mod the bike for power yet - I seldom give it full throttle as it is, since I do a lot of my riding on crowded streets. EFI would really come into its own if I were trying to turbo it, but I'm not sure my riding skills are up to controlling something like that.
I don't see a kit selling for $250 unless it was based heavily on junkyard parts, using the ECU, throttle bodies, and a lot of other stuff from some other bike. For a turnkey package with all new parts, it seems like $1,000 would be a more likely price for a Microsquirt-based system, possibly more.
Quote from: MadScientistMatt on June 23, 2007, 02:34:13 PM
I work for a Megasquirt seller. The idea of putting EFI on my GS500 has crossed my mind a couple times - probably using it as a demonstrator for the upcoming Microsquirt. The thing is that most of the effort and money I'd like to put into my bike are for improving its comfort a little. On a stock engine, EFI might help get it some more mileage, and removing the choke would be nice to have. But I'm not looking to mod the bike for power yet - I seldom give it full throttle as it is, since I do a lot of my riding on crowded streets. EFI would really come into its own if I were trying to turbo it, but I'm not sure my riding skills are up to controlling something like that.
I don't see a kit selling for $250 unless it was based heavily on junkyard parts, using the ECU, throttle bodies, and a lot of other stuff from some other bike. For a turnkey package with all new parts, it seems like $1,000 would be a more likely price for a Microsquirt-based system, possibly more.
Would your estimate use Suzuki OEM parts, or short run stuff ?
Just wondering where the real cost would be involved. You know, something that you could find replacements for, 3-4 years down the line when foo-bar craps out.
Thanks for the input.
i was wondering if GSXR throttle bodies would fit - i've seen them go on ebay for 30 bucks... and they're already wired up for TPS and have the injectors. there's 4 so 2 kits could possibly come out of that...
Just a hasty back of the envelope thing using some sort of OEM parts - not necessarily Suzuki. It might need a couple one-off brackets and such, but I'd envision doing this conversion using an off the shelf fuel pump and throttle bodies. The real price could be way off by hundreds.
Hello.
I am working at an EFI system for my GS. You can find more info here : www.suzukiGS500efi.blogspot.com (http://www.suzukigs500efi.blogspot.com)