got a question here, hopefully with maturity, and or non hostile resposes from herer it will stay out of the TF. ( hey anyone can hope) :thumb:
anyhoo the san diego school system here recently had set up time ( 15 mins) where muslim students could pray. non muslim students would more than likely do other things or what not. where is the ACLU on this one ( separation of church and state for those who are asking ?) if christians or jews or spaghetti monster worshipers had gotten this through the aclu would be raising hell on this . or teh "footbaths in a minnesota college" wtf? fine BUT if youre going to bend the rules for 1 group , bend the rules for ALL groups, now cmon all lets keep this civil. and NOT TF worthy. ( hoping against hope i know this is possible) :thumb:
I don't believe in any thing.So I have no opinion except,gods should stay at home and people should go about there biz.When they get home then they can beg there gods forgiveness.If you come to this country don't expect it to shut down for you like your country does.Wake up people.Welcome to America.
I personally have no problem with them setting time out. I used to, but I don't know, and I realize now that when it affected me I didn't care then. I had to sit down and specifically think about it.
My senior year was spent at a large high school. We had a period during the day that the Muslim students could go to a designated place and pray. No one cared. It didn't hurt us. it didn't bother anyone except the uptight hippies. I used that 20 minutes to grab a bite and make out with my girlfriend...I'm glad we had it.
Besides, they need their time to do their holy business. I'm allowed to pray any time of the day...they're not as privileged. It's not their fault...the rest of us I just a bit luckier.
And I'd like to point out that all the people who Buddha Loves You about it need to stand back and take a look at their local schools...I'd bet a dollar they still pray before the football games. Seperation of church and state has always been a joke. It's like "all men are created equal" and communism. It looks good on paper but mankind doesn't have the knack to pull it off.
I live in the south east,in the middle of the bible belt.The schools here have no prayers of any kind during school or during after school activities.They stopped that before I started school 25 years ago.I live in the same house I grew up in and my kids attend the same schools I did.Poor kids.
I'd bet they're universal about it...no God, no Allah.
I just had an interesting thought...how do Muslim's speak their lord's name in vain? "Allah dammit" just doesn't sound right...
my point is, if the muslims are allowed to pray, let the others do so as well. and those who dont subscribe, , well heck make out with your bf/gf/hand :thumb:
Our school had no problem with people praying. There were prayers all the time...anounced, private, before games, at peprllies, etc...all denominations, too.
ehh for the most part, schools arent allowed to condone it, ie, not say " soo at ( such time yall can go pray)afaik the schools couldnt stiop it, but then again, not condone it either
It's legality only becomes an issue when someone starts caring. In a lot of places people just don't care. In reality, the places where people really do care, are pretty thin. It's the squeaky wheel theory...people who think they're being treated unfairly are really, really squeaky. I doubt if you tried you could find a dozen people who cared enough about this kind of thing to dare attack the issue on their own...for either side of the argument.
like i said tho as per the original post, what would have happened if the christians had received teh same ttreatment? the outcome would have bneen entirely different
What I'm saying is that we had the same treatment. We got to pray before games and peprallies and the little flagpole youth group bunch stood around the flag pole for an hour every day and no one gave a damn. There's more tolerance out there than intolerance.
i know that when i was in school, christians and catholics were granted the day off on holy days if their parents asked. i don't see why it would be a big deal to let muslim kids go off and pray while at school. but honestly, i doubt they'll actually be praying, most of todays hs generation only does what their told when they have to, so i'd imagine they'll just use that time to go f-off with their muslim friends and everyone else will be jealous and say "dude, f-this, im muslim now!" bfd, let the kids pray if they want to. the whiney-a$$ parents will just yell at the staff until their kid is alloted to time duck-off too then everyone is happy.
public schools suck, if something seems unfair to a parent, all they have to do is threaten a lawsuit and they get what they want. i had to tolerate having this disrespectful little dork in my auto class (yes, MY auto class, i was the teacher for the advanced shop class because i put the real teacher in his place too many times) because his mom complained to the administration about EVERYTHING so they just told us to let the kid do his thing, which was generally destructive. i can't count how many times i couldn't use a piece of equipment i needed because HE had broken it.
sorry for the tirade, the public school system really agrivates the living piss out of me.
indeed. i ask because not what happened at your school or mine or whomevers, if someone other than non muslim had done this woudl the outcome had been different. i keep asking this cause i keep getting non answers, ie what your school did back in your day. my grip is htis, no probs letting religious ones pray , BUT not alloting public fiunds to do so, ( what the ACLU would say) which is happening now,
I don't see how allowing 15 minutes to a couople dozen students is alloting funds...
At any rate, this wasn't "back in my day"...and my day wasn't a handful of years ago. They still do things the same way and no one still cares.
To answer your question...it's going to depend on where it is. It always has. Most places it's fine. Other's have squeaky people.
Yeah Yama- They are allowing them 15 minutes of their own time to Pray at their discretion. I don't really see where they are using school funds for this. And this is not special privilege for the Muslims, that 15 minutes is given to everyone as prayer time. If Christians, jews, Buddhists, Spaghetti monsterists want to pray during that time, it is their 15 minutes as well.
Secondly, this is allowing students to do what they please. This is not a classroom sanctioned prayer- this is giving the students their own time to pray as they individually need to. It is not the same as having the whole class recite a prayer in the room together, and saying anyone who doesn't want to participate can leave for a few minutes. I believe that is the type of situation that the ACLU gets up in arms about when it comes to prayer in school. In this situation, they are not making the entire classroom an Allah worshiping activity and saying that anyone not doing so is free to leave for a while.
I don't think anyone is picking on the Christians here. Christians are free to pray on their own time- I'm sure if it was mandatory in the Christian faith to pray at 11AM every day or something, schools would let them leave class for 15 minutes- I even got to leave every Wednesday early when I was a kid to go to Religion class, so did the jews and whomever else needed to. I mean- every school is closed for Christmas, but I don't see people complaining that is is an exclusively Christian holiday.
Edit:
here's the article- http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20070702-9999-1n2prayer.html
Just about every School I know closes for a whole week to two weeks for the Christian holliday "Christmas" ??? Is that wrong? I know they can call it "Winter Break" or whatever, but its for the Christians ???
I also agree that... in this case, its not the school forcing anyone to pray or believe any one thing, its just giving people the time and space to do it if they choose to.
I think the biggest Separation of Church and State issue is the " One Nation under God " in the pledge. What if you love America 100% but dont wish to serve "under God" ?
THis, however, I do not agree with, and think the ACLU are being complete hypocrites on this matter:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200707/CUL20070710c.html
The San Diego school district's lawyer gave this as the school district's rationale:
"The district's legal obligation in response to a request that a prayer must be performed at a particular time is to treat that request the same as it would treat a student's request to receive an insulin shot at a particular time."
So I don't have too much of a problem with it. You'd be amazed how often the ACLU (of which I am happy to say I'm a card-carrying member) defends Christians and the free exercise of their faith. They have a website -- explore it. It's NOT an anti-religious or anti-Christian group in any way. They simply believe in and defend civil liberties. At times, that has offended fundamentalists who wanted to impose their prayer on someone else in a government school. Other times, the ACLU has sided with fundamentalists to defend their constitutional rights.
I'm sure kids prayed in school.They just didn't do it around me.Cause I'd tell them to get away.It wasn't that we were forbid to pray,the school district didn't support it.If we did have prayer time,I'd been found screwing or smoking pot.Those were the bad ole days.Glad I'm over them.
i couldn't qoute. sorry. i hope i got it right scott.
I think the biggest Separation of Church and State issue is the " One Nation under God " in the pledge. What if you love America 100% but dont wish to serve "under God" ?
the biggest problem i have with this is that our nation was founded by Christian, God fearing men. i don't know the exact date of the Pledge of Allegiance but i do know it has been around a long time. this is something that is part of our nations herritage and history. why should we try to change that just because some people don't agree? this is america. love it or leave it. just my $.02.
I think it would help if Lawmakers would read the constitution sometime.
There is no such thing as "separation of church and state" in the constitution.
The wording in the constitution limits what gov't can do when it comes to religion.
It does not say that there should be a separation.
In todays culture it has become popular to say that there is a separation so that religious rights can be limited. Remember, the limit is on the power of the gov't as it pertains to religion.
I don't have a problem with the Muslims having time to persue thier religious freedom.
Unfortunatly, I as a Christian have had some limits put on my right to persue the same freedom.
Unconstitutional? If you look at the wording, Yes.
Good luck on getting things changed.
BeSafe.
well said sir. my point, sorry if i wasnt more succinct in my gripe, :oops: :oops:, myself as a christian tought me to love and respect everyones opinion. including religion. i wont bore you with details, but the gist of it is this. no probs letting muslims pray. at all. my concern is, instead of alloting time where education would have been taking place, allow them to practice their religion and pray, during time when education is not taking place. but i see a flaw in that. if memory serves me, ( which it doesnt, it fails me sometimes :mad: :laugh:), they have to pray at certain times. okay np re word teh time allotment, to i dunno a term which covers all religions and non religions. whoa man, sorry realised the length of my reply :oops: :oops: :oops: worked almost 18 hours today. but grats so far on not tf'ing this :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
IRT "one nation under god"- it was added in 1954 by dwight eisenhower. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Addition_of_the_words_.22under_God.22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Addition_of_the_words_.22under_God.22)
it hasn't been around long and i don't really think its necesary. just because this country was founded by christians doesn't mean it should remain christian. but that doesn't mean i'm quitting my job to lobby for it's removal. i don't care, i just think it doesn't have any point in being there.
Quote from: Times Union Albany, NY
Mohawks lose lawsuit over blessing in school
Judge says Native American address could be seen as religious
By RICK KARLIN, Capitol bureau
Click byline for more stories by writer.
First published: Saturday, June 30, 2007
ALBANY -- A federal judge on Thursday dismissed a lawsuit by a group of Mohawk Indians who contended their local school district discriminated against them when officials there took a traditional Native American blessing off their public address system.
Officials at the Salmon River school district near Akwesasne in northern New York didn't remove the Thanksgiving Address from the district's public address system because it was Mohawk, nor could they be faulted for thinking the blessing could be akin to a prayer, ruled U.S. Northern District Court Judge Thomas McAvoy.
Lawyers for the school district said they felt vindicated.
"There was no evidence that the decision to move the address was intended to discriminate against Mohawk students," said Gregg Johnson, the Albany lawyer hired by the district after it was sued in 2005.
The Mohawks' lawyer, though, said he was disappointed.
"The plaintiffs are going to discuss an appeal and they will decide whether to go ahead," said Yoav Griner, the Manhattan-based lawyer representing the half-dozen American Indians who sued in 2005. "Right now, the main thing is disappointment."
The affair started when a school board member on the Salmon River district asked whether the traditional Thanksgiving Address, which was given twice weekly, could be viewed as a prayer and therefore shouldn't be carried over the PA system.
Lawyers told district officials it could be considered religious, and the district stopped reciting the address over the speakers.
Mohawk people recite the blessing before important gatherings. The district serves about 2,100 students, more than two-thirds of whom are of Mohawk descent. Some of the Mohawk students and their parents said the address wasn't a prayer in the European sense and the board jumped to conclusions based on incomplete research.
In a compromise, the district allowed students to go to the auditorium before school on Monday and afterward on Friday and recite the address, Gregg said.
The address is an ancient blessing in which participants acknowledge natural forces such as sunlight and water, as well as wildlife, for helping to support human existence.
As the dispute went to court, some Mohawk students and parents had said the affair dredged up memories of how American Indians years ago had been mistreated and prohibited from speaking their native tongue. The dispute, they said, also reflected the different worldviews of the predominantly white, Christian society and that of the Mohawks.
For example, the school board contended that a reference to the "Creator" in the Thanksgiving Address could be interpreted as a reference to God, while Mohawks say it's a recognition of the creative force of nature.
Students at one point protested the move and said they would ask that the Pledge of Allegiance be removed from the school day, although it's unclear whether that actually happened. Lawyers weren't sure on that point, and plaintiffs in the case could not be reached Friday.
Karlin can be reached at 454-5758 or by e-mail at rkarlin@timesunion.com.
Here's a case where they aren't allowed to have private schools. Its illegal for my reservation to have a private school on the reservation and teach solely based on their beliefs despite the fact that many of the teachers at Salmon River are from the reservation. The Thanksgiving Address does not mention "GOD" anywhere..its a problem with the english translation. Mostly its to remind young people to respect where they came from and take care of the earth..something I don't think would hurt any of today's youth. but simply because it could be perceived as religious, its out.
I went to that school for a year...most of the graduates of Salmon River can't read..and if they can its not beyond an 8th grade level..maybe they should focus on making the school better.. :dunno_white:
Quote from: PuddleJumper on July 11, 2007, 11:25:34 PM
I don't have a problem with the Muslims having time to persue thier religious freedom.
Unfortunatly, I as a Christian have had some limits put on my right to persue the same freedom.
I'm just curious where you have limits put on you as a Christian to worship god- I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm actually interested to see where you believe those limits have been imposed on you.
See, I don't think that in the case Yama pointed out there is any discrimination going on. The school is simply letting the kids pray when their religion requires it. Simple as that. Like I said, if Christianity required a daily 11am Prayer, I don't think the school would be denying Christians that.There are no school funds being used to pay for it, and no one's tax dollars are paying for it. It is simply letting people freely worship at a time that their religion requires. I don't understand the controversy here.
Like I asked, can anyone Justify the Christmas argument? No other religion gets that much time off (Government Holiday, schools closed, etc) surrounding a religion-specific holiday.
religion in schools and prayer in schools will always be a strong topic for debate. has been for a long time. i'm not sure what started it but i'm sure that my grandparents really didn't have to worry bout it as much as us younger people. (i'm just a few months shy of 26). when i was younger however and still in school, things were a little lax in some areas. i have read articles that have fired teachers for mentioning religious things. when history comes around, and we talk about Christmas in school, we aren't allowed to discuss the real reason we celebrate Christmas becuase it may offend someone. a Catholic school teacher was fired recently because she's unmarried and got pregnant. haven't heard the ACLU up in arms about this. i don't see the problem with setting asided time for kids to pray. but our tax money does pay for kids to be in school from certain said times to certain other times of the day. (8am-3pm??) and if the allotted prayer time is during normal school hours, then yes, i think our tax money pays for that. i think as a country we've gotten a little soft. we seem to be bending our backs more and more, just so one group isn't offended. we have a huge problem with illegal immigration in this country as well as many others. and yet we bicker about whether or not prayer should be allowed in school? maybe today's youth could use a little more prayer.
Prayer in schools, amazing this hasn't been tarded let me see if I can help.
Ok seriously I work for a school district, many of my co workers attend church regularly. When we have pot luck meals I feel bad for these people that it is not acceptable for someone to say grace. I have never been really religious, but a moment of courtesy to allow those who believe to say a prayer doesn't bother me.
Prayer should be allowed in school, for individuals and like minded groups of individuals. I am all for freedom of choice and religion is a choice :thumb:
More later I need to go to lunch.
There has been prayer in school as long as there has been exams :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Seriously, the issue with prayer in schools is not whether it is allowed (it is), but whether it can be imposed. For example, a child choosing to pray before lunch is allowed to, but a school reading a lunch prayer over the PA is not.
Quote from: trumpetguy on July 12, 2007, 11:12:44 AM
Seriously, the issue with prayer in schools is not whether it is allowed (it is), but whether it can be imposed. For example, a child choosing to pray before lunch is allowed to, but a school reading a lunch prayer over the PA is not.
Pretty much sums it up :thumb:
Quote from: jserio on July 11, 2007, 10:34:42 PMour nation was founded by Christian, God fearing men.
Thomas Jefferson: DeistBenjamin Franklin: Deist (Attacked Christianity in "A Dissertation on Liberty and Necessity, Pleasure and Pain")
Alexander Hamilton: Raised Presbyterian,
non-practicing (and known to make "blasphemus" comments). Converted to Episcopalian after 1801
John Adams: Unitarian (often spoke in Deist terms. He did not believe in the divinity of Christ or that God intervened in the affairs of individuals.)
Thomas Paine: Deist (Wrote "The Age of Reason" which advocated deism and took issue with Christian doctrines.)
George Washington: Deist/Christian? "Historians and biographers continue to debate the degree to which he can be counted as a Christian, and the degree to which he was a deist."
John Jay: Protestant? (Jay argued for a prohibition against Catholics holding office.)
I can add more later... I'm tired of looking up names... I mean... There are 55 of those old bastards. :laugh:
No this issue is allowance in some places. There have been school districts that have had to ban the football team from saying a prayer before a game. This was after coaches were prohibited from leading the team in a prayer. Players took it upon themselves to gather and say a prayer and were told they must stop as it was on school property and at a school function. My position is and always will be that if it is voluntary and initiated by a student it should be allowed.
Freedom of Religion, Freedom from Religion, and the separation of Religion and Government all boil down to one idea: Religion (specific or non specific) should not be forced upon or taken away from anyone... That is religious freedom.
So... Are the students being forced to pray or being allowed to pray? You can't stop someone from praying, but you can stop the Government (including publicly funded organizations) from organizing a prayer. :dunno_white:
+1 to what Rvert said :o
But is it REALLY optional or is there peer pressure involved? My son's HS basketball team prayed to Jesus before games. My son told me his Muslim friend (who was also on the team) was afraid to complain, and didn't want to feel different, so he listened. Certainly didn't injure the boy, but how many of the other kids felt the same way and were silent?
Why the need to pray as a group? Is it to demonstrate to others how "holy" we are? Jesus himself said to go into your closet to pray (in other words, it's between you and the guy upstairs, not everyone else).
Also +1 for RVert
Pray in a group because it's your right as an American. As long as you are not infringing on anyone else directly, then I say go for it. I don't think the school basketball team should have done that. It is a school funded and sanctioned organization. If the players wanted to pray together before the game on their own accord, that would have been fine. The school, however, should not be involved.