http://www.abc15.com/content/news/investigators/story.aspx?content_id=568d6b4d-67b7-4116-9098-4c35d8b5ce38
don't you realize that all this fear is just a way to justify spending trillions on unnecessary defense and so called security? more people die from drinking bad water than die from so called terrorists attacks. you can not live your life locking yourself in a cage. i am not saying to live your life lackadaisical with no thought on security but this has gone way too overboard and it is time to stop the non sense.
Quote from: frankieG on July 24, 2007, 09:05:05 AM
don't you realize that all this fear is just a way to justify spending trillions on unnecessary defense and so called security? more people die from drinking bad water than die from so called terrorists attacks. you can not live your life locking yourself in a cage. i am not saying to live your life lackadaisical with no thought on security but this has gone way too overboard and it is time to stop the non sense.
so why are they spending the other 20 hours of the day having high security? Seems like a waste of time then...
Quote from: frankieG on July 24, 2007, 09:05:05 AM
don't you realize that all this fear is just a way to justify spending trillions on unnecessary defense and so called security? more people die from drinking bad water than die from so called terrorists attacks. you can not live your life locking yourself in a cage. i am not saying to live your life lackadaisical with no thought on security but this has gone way too overboard and it is time to stop the non sense.
Please describe one of these "so called" terroists attacks? Were some of these terrorist attacks in fact something else? Do you think that we should just forget about all this "so called" security? Please, tell us what you mean when you write "so called" terrorist attacks and "so called" security. Maybe your talking about the "so called" terroist attack where some random guys flew "so called" jet planes into a "so called" building or two. Or maybe where some "so called" terrorists blew up some "so called" subways trains in London.
you guys are the reason I drink :flipoff:
On fox news a year or so ago Shep Smith said: Not direct quote:
Ok, in 01 we had a horrible Terrorist attack we increased airport security to keep it from happening again... the review 6 years later.... Its working!!! No terrorist attacks in 6 years :cheers:
What is America not seeing....
For over 6 years before 9-11 there had been no attacks and no major problems WITH NO ADDED SECURITY ???
It think that, more than anything the security additions; while not a bad thing are a bit overboard. Anyone could still walk out, onto the tarmack at any small airport hop in a small plane and fly it into a building. If someone wants to harm US citizens they will find a way.
The "War on Terror" is just like the "War on Drugs" you can never EVER win O0
Yawn... Airport security is for show... It only makes stupid people feel safe and really accomplishes nothing.
So... How dangerous is a lighter? Not THAT dangerous, but you can't bring them on. How many people do you think carry a lighter on every flight they take?
How about a book of matched? One match alone is no big deal, but with lots of matches compressed together, you can make a small bomb....... How many books of matches can you fit in your pocket without them being noticed? How many books of matches can you cram in your carry-on without them being noticed?
If you travel enough, you'll quickly realize that every airport has some different rule that's SO important... And they're all total bull shaZam!. The entire "security" process is a pointless waste of time and money. Every time they make it "more secure" we lose a little time and a little freedom, and someone still finds some way to try something else.
- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."
- "Live Free or Die."
Okay then. Please tell me how airport security takes away any of your freedom? Your right to privacy, while secured by several amendments to the Constitution, isn't absolute. Outside of that, what freedom have you lost?
They should take away all air port security and make play grounds with the money. Homeland security should be ablolished and the money there used to pay health care.
Why we are at it, the police force should be abolished and we can use that money to fund schools.
You guys are pissed because you have to wait in line for a extra 15 t0 20 min? :dunno_white: I can affored to wait that long so I feel safer boarding my plane. And like it said it wasn't all airports just that one.
Quote from: blue05twin on July 24, 2007, 11:40:23 AM
They should take away all air port security and make play grounds with the money. Homeland security should be ablolished and the money there used to pay health care.
Why we are at it, the police force should be abolished and we can use that money to fund schools.
You guys are pissed because you have to wait in line for a extra 15 t0 20 min? :dunno_white: I can affored to wait that long so I feel safer boarding my plane. And like it said it wasn't all airports just that one.
The main point here is we have all this extra security and we are NOT safer... :dunno_white:
Quote from: scottpA_GS on July 24, 2007, 12:07:56 PM
Quote from: blue05twin on July 24, 2007, 11:40:23 AM
They should take away all air port security and make play grounds with the money. Homeland security should be ablolished and the money there used to pay health care.
Why we are at it, the police force should be abolished and we can use that money to fund schools.
You guys are pissed because you have to wait in line for a extra 15 t0 20 min? :dunno_white: I can affored to wait that long so I feel safer boarding my plane. And like it said it wasn't all airports just that one.
The main point here is we have all this extra security and we are NOT safer... :dunno_white:
not at this airport...but what about others?
Sure you're safer. There is no way to measure the amount of safety you are afforded by every day airport security efforts. To think otherwise is foolish. Do you honestly think that airport security doesn't make you any safer? That is just silly and you know it.
Airport security is a necessary intrusion. However, a lot of what TSA is doing now is pointless. Cases in point:
1. Lighters, beginning August 4, can now be carried on again. They were too dangerous to go on board but now they're not? The real story is how much the TSA was paying to dispose of the millions of lighters they confiscated. They were having to dispose of them as hazardous waste and it was costing millions.
2. I had a penknife with a 1.5" blade confiscated (it was in a recess of my backpack and I didn't even know it was still in there), but scissors with up to a 4" blade can go on. Do I feel safer because of that?
3. Everyone must take off their shoes. In the first few months of this policy, there were no signs. If you didn't voluntarily take off your shoes, you were put in the search line. Just tell people what they have to do.
4. Laptops must go through separately from the laptop case. Why? X-rays show whats in the case with or without the laptop.
etc. etc.
It's mostly show to keep people fearful so they will buy whatever absurdity is next perpetrated on them in the name of "War on Terror." It's working well so far.
Generally, they make you turn your laptop on (just to show that it is real). This is easier/faster if it isn't in the case.
I know you're bummed about the pen knife, but it is a knife. You can't take a knife on a plane. Whether you know it is there or not. Not knowing it was there should be no reason to let you keep it. You can do plenty of damage with such a knife. Maybe 4" scissors are more dangrous, but that doesn't mean you should be able to take a knife on a plane.
And just so I get this straight, we are bitching about airport security being too much or too little?
Quote from: RVertigo on July 24, 2007, 10:41:43 AMAirport security is for show... It only makes stupid people feel safe
... :dunno_white:
Quote from: Jake D on July 24, 2007, 12:45:30 PMwe are bitching about airport security being too much or too little?
Too pointless...
Just baby steps... One little step at a time... One little inconvenience for "safety." One more little change... Just wear this little patch... Just move to this other part of town... One by one....... One by one.
Quote from: Jake D on July 24, 2007, 12:45:30 PM
Generally, they make you turn your laptop on (just to show that it is real). This is easier/faster if it isn't in the case.
I know you're bummed about the pen knife, but it is a knife. You can't take a knife on a plane. Whether you know it is there or not. Not knowing it was there should be no reason to let you keep it. You can do plenty of damage with such a knife. Maybe 4" scissors are more dangrous, but that doesn't mean you should be able to take a knife on a plane.
And just so I get this straight, we are bitching about airport security being too much or too little?
I agree with everything you have said in this topic, Jake. I did start this out just to basically say that why would an airport have 20 hours of high security, and then 4 hours with no security? Sounds like a complete waste of time, either you do it, or you don't, the bad guy will just wait till that 4 hour time frame.
I totally understood where you were coming from. I don't take issue with that at all and I agree that there should be 24 hour security.
I take issue with the following statements:
So called terrorist attacks.
So called security.
Loss of personal freedom as a result of airport security.
Security measures are a waste of money.
Security measures are easy to defeat.
There has been 1 terrorist attack in 12 years, so why worry.
Sometimes I forget that this is the intenet, and I shouldn't assume that everyone here is sane.
So, you don't think that it's possible to get banned items passed security?
Sure. But it isn't easy. But you're a f%$king dipshit if you think that it is easy to employ a banned item once you've bypassed security.
Describe one banned item, how you could get it through security, and how you could use it to harm the plane or passengers.
One example: If you have the appropriate resources a Kel-tec .380 can be modified to contain no metal parts. .380 ammunition can be packed into composite casings. You can hide it in your underwear.
Anyone heard of high tensile carbon composites??? Make great razor sharp knives. Even in a bag they would have almost no signature in the X-ray.
There are dozens of possibilities.
We spent 2 weeks briefing on this 2 years back before G8. No planes but very similar security procedures.
Quote from: spcterry on July 24, 2007, 03:16:40 PM
One example: If you have the appropriate resources a Kel-tec .380 can be modified to contain no metal parts. .380 ammunition can be packed into composite casings. You can hide it in your underwear.
Anyone heard of high tensile carbon composites??? Make great razor sharp knives. Even in a bag they would have almost no signature in the X-ray.
There are dozens of possibilities.
We spent 2 weeks briefing on this 2 years back before G8. No planes but very similar security procedures.
Nobody said it couldn't be done, but why make it easy for them? Now, go try those 2 examples at 3 airports and let us know.
Items:
Small plastic pipe. PVC is ok.
Two end caps, one with a small hole for a fuse.
Matchheads, as many as possible.
Fuse
Matches (for lighting)
Pack the matchheads as tightly as possible into the pipe, add end caps and fuse. Light... Boom
Matches are not allowed on planes... But, they're not metal... They could be packed into a neck pillow or any other normal item... The fuse is also not metal, could be packed in... Your pocket. The pipe could be a toothbrush holder or some other normal item. Now, an assembled PVC pipe would probably get caught on X-Ray and get you searched..... But, disassembled? Doubtful.
You could easily assemble the parts in a bathroom stall before your flight left... You could easily light the bomb in the airplane bathroom and toss it out the door... The explosion will NOT be like dynamite, but it will be loud, it will smoke, and it will scare the piss out of people and potentially injure people on the plane (more than nail clipper will... By FAR).
Next... High Proof Alcohol + Match = Lots of fire that's hard to put out. You're only allowed 3oz bottles, but you can have enough little bottles to fill a Qt ziplock bag... With 99% alcohol, that's enough to light a seat, the floor, or a person on fire... Very much on fire. (Although a person would probably be hard)... You could probably come up with a way to spray it as well...
Next... Small razor blade + plastic comb (or other flat plastic item) = Knife (aka boxcutter, the exact item used to take the planes on 9-11). Small amounts of metal will most likely not set off the metal detector... And if they're placed in a location where there is known to be metal (as in, taped to the inside of your zipper or button fly), you will get through the metal detector. The weapon could be assembled before take off or in the plane bathroom.
Next... Non-metal items can be very, very sharp (sharper than metal)... A non-metal knife taped to your leg (or other areas of your body) will NOT be detected... Again, like a boxcutter.
Next... A garrote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote) can be made out of anything stronger than a human can tear...
Now, this one is out there, but possible... Have you seen "In the Line of Fire" where John Malkovich makes his plastic gun?
Anyway... I could keep going... But, here's the point:
If you pulled any of these stunts on a plane (including pulling a REAL gun), you'd be beaten and dead on the ground before you know what hit you. :dunno_white: So, what the f%$k is the point of taking away people's nail clippers?
+1000
My point exactly. Taking away a penknife is pointless, as are many of the things done in the name of security at airports. Scanning checked luggage is GOOD, but has only recently started happening and doesn't happen everywhere.
I have NEVER once been asked to turn on my laptop. I have flown with it maybe twenty times.
My point about the penknife is why take away a 1.5" knife but allow 4" scissors? I have some hair scissors that are less than a 4" blade but would be a mean weapon.
Why ban lighters one day and not the next? Why allow 3 ozs. of liquids but ONLY if they're in a ziplock bag?
My trumpet valve oil was confiscated shortly after the no-liquid thing started. It is always in my trumpet case (naturally) and I didn't think about it. It is in a 2 oz. container. The SS found it and offered to let me keep it IF I went to the beginning of the security line again and put it in a ziplock. Does THAT make me or you safer?
Kev: I've worked with NSA boys before who where tasked with attempting to bring a very wide range of weapons aboard an aircraft, posing as a civilian.
Everything from the very easily concealed options above to a completely unmodified m1911 filled with black talons. They succeded every time. A little ingenuity can be a very dangerous thing in the wrong hands.
Trumpet value oil OUT of a ziplock bag is one of the deadliest devices in the world, but IN a ziplock bag it's harmless... Don't you know that? Geeze! :icon_rolleyes:
I've seen many things allowed through at one airport, but confiscated at another...
I've seen one airport stop people from using a certain type of ziplock bag... They HAD to use this one type... But, both were the same size...
I've seen a half-full 4oz container (with 2oz in it) taken away, but a full 3oz container is allowed...
Some places let you keep your laptop in the case and not turn it on, while others make you take it out and turn it on...
Burbank wanted me to turn on my little MP3 player, but nowhere else has ever asked...
Meanwhile, before the shoe law I walked through a metal detector with steel toe boots on... It didn't go off... When I told them I was wearing steel toes, they didn't seem to care...
Like I said before... It's for show... The appearance of safety makes certain people feel better.
On my way to CA, I had to take my dog out of her carrier and walk through the metal detector with her. I forgot to take her collar off. She has 2 tags on her collar, plus the metal in the collar. She didn't set off the alarm. That's plenty of shrapnel to put in RVert's pvc bomb.
But they did confiscate my sister's perfume that she inadvertently put in her carry-on.
I feel safer :icon_rolleyes:
Sure, security is necessary. It keeps most guns and large metal objects off of planes. However, confiscating a bottle of Dasani isn't going to do crap to make planes safer.
all window dressing that could easily lead to a police state
- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."
- "Live Free or Die."
The best statments I heard in a long time. These hold true for every thing in life.
Quote from: Crucialval on July 24, 2007, 08:48:33 PM
- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."
- "Live Free or Die."
The best statments I heard in a long time. These hold true for every thing in life.
Let's not forget that during Franklin's life this country had more than just a little terrorist problem. The most powerful government in the world wanted nothing more than to maintan control of "her" colonies.
America is still a very young country, and thus prone to overreaction. However, we must remember that the most important thing we have is our freedom. If we must sacrifice our freedom to the fight then what
are we fighting for?
Unfortunately, it has gone far beyond increased airport security. At the very heart of it all is a president who does not feel bound by the checks and balances set forth in the constitution. Remember, what we do today sets a precedent for tomorrow. If we allow x to happen today fully expect y and z to happen tomorrow.
personal freedom in america is a myth perpetrated by the ultra right. you are free to a police beating, free to be spied on, free to be put in jail for speeding, free to be executed is mentally ill, free to fight die or be wounded for your country and have to fight for benefits, free to die from illness because you don't have money to pay for health care, free to be poor, free to be poisoned by corporations actions.
a society that does not spread its resources to the people and ensure their health, welfare and education. america is by no means the most advanced society on this world with the one exception....weapons or war. education, health and welfare should be a joint state and federal priority. divert money from the military, the 28 spy agencies and police and there will be more than enough to accomplish this.
Woowwww^^^^^^
Hey let's give socilaism a try!!!! Yeah because we care more we can make it work this time!!!!
Please note 2 lines above this one do not in anyway reflect my true feelings. Unless you have prorerly interperted them as sarcasm in which case you undestand.
28 spy agencies???????????? Care to list those????? I'm privy to some less than 'public' knowledge and I've never heard of 28. You don't happen to be a scientologist, also, do you frankie, because obviously you've been led into believing some complete bullshit.
I used to work the for the FAA before I went to law school. Once that had me try to sneak a fake gun through security. This was way before 9/11. That was fun!!
Anyway, okay the bomb made of matches. . . I still think they would catch that in your bag. I flew through Atlanta once and they took a q-tip and ran it around the zipper of my suitcase. Doesn't anyone know why they did that?
As far as the guns that aren't made of metal: they are supposed to be trained to spot this stuff. But there is a chance I suppose it could slip by.
And sure, maybe there isn't a point to taking away your pin knife. But it is a knife. They have to take it away.
Sounds like a gun powder or drug residue test swab.
While there is gun powder in a fuse, there is none in a match head... PLUS, if you're not stupid, you'd be quite careful about what you touched after touching explosives... AND you'd wear gloves when touching the explosives.
And... Match heads could be "beads" in your neck pillow... Or you could put them in a money belt... Or in your damn pocket... :dunno_white:
So........ Can I bring a 3oz jar of petroleum jelly? 'cause petroleum jelly + powdered potassium nitrate = KABOOM! I'm sure 3oz would be plenty.
And, again....... If you were smart about it, your bag would contain no explosive material on the outside.
The point is: If someone wants it bad enough, they'll get *something* through security. If your average Joe can get a lighter through security, then someone truly craft could get many far more dangerous items through.
And again... How far would they really get on the plane? They'd stand up and say, "I'm taking over this pla..." **SMACK** Dead on the floor... :dunno_white:
(Jeeze, I'm gonna end up on a watch list after this thread.)
You've been on the watch list for years, commie.
Quote from: Jake D on July 24, 2007, 01:40:27 PM
I totally understood where you were coming from. I don't take issue with that at all and I agree that there should be 24 hour security.
I take issue with the following statements:
So called terrorist attacks.
So called security.
Loss of personal freedom as a result of airport security.
Security measures are a waste of money.
Security measures are easy to defeat.
There has been 1 terrorist attack in 12 years, so why worry.
Sometimes I forget that this is the intenet, and I shouldn't assume that everyone here is sane.
I think one point is that in the grand scheme of things terrorist attacks should not be on the top of our worry list.
Absolutely there should be intelligence trying to catch and prevent terrorist, and we should be aware of suspicious activity and so on. But, there were about 3,000 people killed on 9/11. The previous terror attack on US soil was years before that, and it wasn't as devastating. There are far more people killed by drunk drivers or cigarettes each year.
The money and efforts need to go to GOOD intelligence. Right now, one of our biggest lines of defense is a bunch of people making a little over minimum wage who are just waiting to go home. If an attack is well planned, they can probably figure out ways around airport security.
So to sum up... Airport security isn't realistically effective (3oz of liquid is OK, but 4oz isnt!). And the gov and everyone else is playing on our fears.
Our fears give them jobs. I heard the attacks on 9/11 where something they knew about but did nothing. I don't know maybe they though it was :bs:
no not religious at all just a lefty :) i believe that a society should not live in fear and should take care of the less fortunate. i ran and was elected on that same platform. i am business friendly too having been president of the chamber of commerce so i don't want to run things into the ground. i just believe that the right used unjustified fear to sell weapons, expand military budget and spending. i was just a diving officer in the navy but i know first hand about military abuse of its own and veterans affairs contempt for us. i'm rambling i know i'm not too sure where i am going with this. i guess my main point is i believe this country has its spending priorities all wrong. #1 should be universal health care followed by education. not weapons of war and bullying other countries.
Weapons of war/bullying other counties on one hand. Homeland security on the other. With the exception of the legitmate pursuit of Al-Queda, those are apples and oranges.
sorry jake you lost me on that last one
Yeah, that's going to happen from time to time. But "weapons of war and bullying other countries", with the exception of the legitmate pursuit of Al-Queda, is vastly differently from homeland defense. IMO.
cause and effect my friend
Have you ever considered it is actually effect and cause?
honestly no, the US has killed more and meddled more than any terrorist organization. just look at our actions, if it were any other organization other than the US government it would cause an all out war. such things as assassinations, over throwing governments, supporting the likes of Saddam Hussein and al kaida (SP) it is a large and disturbing list.
Such things as assasinations, and overthrowing governments are not perpetrated by the US government. That would be a very blatant violation of the Geneva conventions that we hold so dearly. Instead, we assist in creating conditions conducive to these actions being performed by 'outside' parties.
Quote from: Jake D on July 25, 2007, 12:34:13 PMYou've been on the watch list for years, commie.
I'm not a commie! I'm a capitalist pig, with a few socialist leanings.
Socially Liberal (Keep the bedroom in the bedroom and give everyone the same rights)
Fiscally Conservative (Stop friggen spending)
I want less government, less laws, more rights, and more freedom.
Communism (in practice) has very, very little freedom.
^Damn it....now I can't hate you :cry:
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i134/dlchris1/gov-logo.jpg)
Quote from: spcterry on July 25, 2007, 02:54:28 PM
Such things as assasinations, and overthrowing governments are not perpetrated by the US government. That would be a very blatant violation of the Geneva conventions that we hold so dearly. Instead, we assist in creating conditions conducive to these actions being performed by 'outside' parties.
:icon_mrgreen:
:thumb:
Ooo yea... You know it :thumb:
Quote from: porsche4786 on July 24, 2007, 12:16:57 PM
Quote from: scottpA_GS on July 24, 2007, 12:07:56 PM
Quote from: blue05twin on July 24, 2007, 11:40:23 AM
They should take away all air port security and make play grounds with the money. Homeland security should be ablolished and the money there used to pay health care.
Why we are at it, the police force should be abolished and we can use that money to fund schools.
You guys are pissed because you have to wait in line for a extra 15 t0 20 min? :dunno_white: I can affored to wait that long so I feel safer boarding my plane. And like it said it wasn't all airports just that one.
The main point here is we have all this extra security and we are NOT safer... :dunno_white:
not at this airport...but what about others?
I'm sure that planes from Phoenix fly to most other major airports. They then fly on from there. So a major security lapse at one airport does not really limit the potential for harm TO that airport.
That being said, most security measures are REactive not PROactive. One potential shoe bomber = no shoes at security for years. Theoretical (but impossible) liquid bomb = no more liquids brought on (really sucks to not be able to bring stuff back from trips). It's just a false sense of security.
As to freedoms, it's a slippery slope. Look at our friends across the pond. It seems that you cannot walk around any major city in England without being on camera constantly (
please correct me if I'm wrong on that). At what point does that become too invasive for you?
Personally, it's enough to dissuade me from going there ... and I don't have anything to hide.
Quote from: Jake D on July 24, 2007, 02:48:17 PM
Sure. But it isn't easy. But you're a f%$king dipshit if you think that it is easy to employ a banned item once you've bypassed security.
Describe one banned item, how you could get it through security, and how you could use it to harm the plane or passengers.
I believe it was NBC who was able to get shotguns and assault rifles through security in NY. Have to go find those shows. Would be rather easy to use once through :)
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
Quote from: bp
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
+100
Here I am agreeing with BP again. Is it a full moon or something? (Actually, I suspect that we agree more than disagree -- there are probably only one or two areas of differences)
The chances of dying from many accidental causes were greater than from a terror attack, even in 2001. Does that mean we should not be vigilant and watch out for ourselves? No. But we also shouldn't give up our freedoms in order to be "secure" from terrorists.
And perhaps we should investigate POLITICAL solutions to the underlying problems that terrorists are willing to die for. "Exporting Democracy" at the barrel of a gun isn't a political solution, and only makes the problem worse.
QuoteHere I am agreeing with BP again. Is it a full moon or something? (Actually, I suspect that we agree more than disagree -- there are probably only one or two areas of differences)
See here's the thing I have some liberal opinions but I am middle of the road kinda on the conservative side of those opinions. When it comes to my conservative opinions I can get pretty rabid about them. Basically I'm like a dartboard take a toss and see where I land :laugh: